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Author Topic: 3 licks of death!  (Read 2455 times)

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Offline whatthe123

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3 licks of death!
« on: May 31, 2012, 02:37:26 PM »
Hey all,

I have a qauestion regarding oral on a women (I am a man)...I had gone to a stripper bar in canada and had a lap dance which turned out to be be getting really close to her vagina then licking it a few times....not a great call but it is what it is!  my questions below, thanks.

1) The obvious....is this a risk in anyway?

2) i have braces and usually have a bit of irritation on my inner cheaks...this time not too much but a bit on one inside cheek....is this the deciding factor of my risk?

3) I read alot about HIV and have learned that once outside the body it is no longer infectious...with that being said...the clitoris is outside and I did not go inside with my tounge so is this a big reason from this act not being risky?

4) the other factor is the whole saliva thing...first is this an opinion about it being capable of killing the virus or is there scientific fact regarding this?  also I dont recall having too much saliva in my mouth at the time as I was drinking beer prior...is this a problem?

I am from canada where are HIV rates are not that high but the girl was from EU but I look at it as you cannot enter canada with a working visa with HIV....I am pulling at threads here to try to understand if my life is about to change...

I appreciate all the help all the experts can give on this topic....thank you

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2012, 02:59:27 PM »
You are worrying needlessly about HIV. It's a fragile virus and giving oral to her was not a risk. Even if she was HIV+, your saliva contains over a dozen elements and proteins which very effectively prevent the transmission of viable HIV.

There's no need for HIV testing nor for further concern on your part. Get on with your life.
Andy Velez

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 03:00:40 PM »
Even with the mid irritation due to the braces?

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2012, 03:21:52 PM »
Yes. No risk. Get on with your life. Really.
Andy Velez

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2012, 09:17:52 PM »
With all that being said....going forward if I only engage in protected intercourse and unprotected oral (both way) I will avoid HIV?  even if I cross paths with a HIV+ women?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2012, 09:18:57 PM »
With all that being said....going forward if I only engage in protected intercourse and unprotected oral (both way) I will avoid HIV?  even if I cross paths with a HIV+ women?
Correct.

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2012, 09:26:11 PM »
Well that is a good thing! I guess!

I have noticed in the just tested poz forum that there are people who come in saying they have only had oral?  I agree with most of the experts who debunk them but why in the hell would someone do this?  especially when people like myself are in the situation I am in???? 

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2012, 09:35:20 PM »
Just because people would like to claim it doesn't make it true.

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2012, 09:47:47 PM »
If I understand correctly...there has been tons of studies that conclude the finding of oral sex is not a risk?  also do the people on this forum read and understand these studies? (at least the people such as rapidrod, ann and andy?)

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2012, 09:55:53 PM »
If I understand correctly...there has been tons of studies that conclude the finding of oral sex is not a risk?  also do the people on this forum read and understand these studies? (at least the people such as rapidrod, ann and andy?)
What kind of question is that? Of course we understand those studies.

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2012, 10:02:39 PM »
Sorry I appologise if that sounded rude but I guess I really meant to say have you read them?  I should have not added the understand part...

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 12:23:20 AM »
Well that is a good thing! I guess!

I have noticed in the just tested poz forum that there are people who come in saying they have only had oral?  I agree with most of the experts who debunk them but why in the hell would someone do this?  especially when people like myself are in the situation I am in???? 


Yes, people sometimes don't remember their sexual history. Or they are ashamed to admit to having performed acts which are known to cause HIV, preferring instead to pretend that they "did everything right" and still managed to get the virus. We cal them the "immaculate Infections." Almost to a person, they recant their initial claims down the line. Sometimes years later, maybe.

Other people have drug addiction issues, or had unsafe sex while drunk or high, and do not recall these actions. Some people employ a large amount of cognitive dissonance in order to affirm their sexual orientation, or to assuage their guilt at having strayed, or because in an anonymous forum they fear being judged.

There are a myriad of reasons why patient report after the fact is not considered hard science, nor reliable testimony. There's an adage I particularly like, which says "the plural of anecdote is NOT data."

Do we call these people out in the Just Tested Positive forum? Sometimes. Not always. Depends on the circumstances.

And we do not debunk them in order to pacify people like yourself. THIS part of the site is provided as a courtesy. The rest of the site is built for HIV infected people to go through the organic process of assimilating the news into their paradigm, and gathering support and information as regards this still-difficult chronic disease. We make NO effort to spare people who do not HAVE the virus from becoming alarmed. Perhaps if you didn't trawl those parts of the site to fuel your fears, and stayed in the scientifically accurate section (this one) you would not be alarmed.

As for the studies that have been unable to duplicate an oral transmission, ALL the people who are approved to respond in this forum are aware of, and have a genuine understanding of the studies in question.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 02:04:20 PM »
Do all of you disagree with the information on your transmission info that states that there has been 2 case reports of cunnilingus causing transmission? 

Do anyone here have knowledge of these 2 cases?

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2012, 02:38:38 PM »
We're not going to continue this conversation about those 2 cases out of multiple millions.

If you can't let go of your unwarranted fears then get tested and collect the inevitable negative result.

There's nothing more we can do for you in this setting.
Andy Velez

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2012, 03:19:42 PM »
Do all of you disagree with the information on your transmission info that states that there has been 2 case reports of cunnilingus causing transmission? 

Do anyone here have knowledge of these 2 cases?

The only knowledge I have is that the two cases in question were based on patient report after infection. Patient report is notoriously unreliable. People misremember. People lie.

What I DO know is that there were no fewer than three distinct and separate studies conducted over the course of two decades with serodiscordasnt couples. We do not rely on anecdotal evidence insofar as HIV transmission is concerned, especially not now, where the current state of the scientific and epidemiological art is as advanced as it is. With more people living longer and healthier lives, a large enough collection of serodiscordant couples has finally emerged to create blind studies where HIV transmission routes can be studied with scientific quantification.

Here are some of the  scientific findings.


No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan

Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117

Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.


This information, combined with the statistical findings throughout the pandemic that shows lesbians virtually untouched insofar as HIV infections are concerned (who do you think took care of gay men throughout the 80s and 90s) has made cunnilingus NOT considered an unsafe act.

 In addition,  there is the hard science regarding the fluids you encounter when performing cunnilingus. Bartholen's gland fluids, encountered during cunnilingus, contain no infectious particles. They are as benign as sweat and tears. Infectious fluids are found deeper inside the vagina, in the mucousal cervical fluids, which are thick and not easily displaced. A penis can reach these. A tongue cannot.

This site is constantly upgrading our lessons, but as it stands now, the link between AIDSMEDS and POZ (where the article you reference resides) is not as seamless as we'd prefer. We can control our own lessons here, and we do so as often as we find prudent.

If we thought for an instant that cunnilingus was an unsafe activity we would say so. It is not our duty to provide misinformation.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2012, 03:21:21 PM »
I do appologise for this...I guess when you look at it 2 in millions and millions the odds are pretty close to 0. 

My point to my comment was if these were just 2 more of the cases where it probably not the case? 

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2012, 04:55:20 PM »
We're not going to continue this conversation about those 2 cases out of multiple millions.

If you can't let go of your unwarranted fears then get tested and collect the inevitable negative result.

There's nothing more we can do for you in this setting.

I don't see there's anything new to add to the conversation. We don't see you as having been at risk. You decide if you need to get tested or not.
Andy Velez

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2012, 07:13:31 PM »
I do appologise for being a bug but I figured instead of worrying about I would just ask.

I have an issue with tachycardia and I had an episode this week that brought me to the ER.  They did blood work and everything was in the normal range but my lymph % was 24% the normal range was 25-45% but my absolute lymph were 2.1 the norm being 1.5-4.

Of course I googled it just to see and what came up?? HIV.

I was just wondering if you would have any insight on this?

Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2012, 07:23:20 PM »
If you are still worried and had the other blood work done, why not get tested for HIV and get your negative result? That would put your mind to rest.
Started Meds On 5/1/2012 Norvair, Truvada, Prezista, and Bactrim

4/17/2012--CD4 83/ VL 353,000  7.0%
5/15/2012--CD4 218/ VL 4,970    14.1%
6/27/2012--CD4 146/ VL 420      6.1%
10/11/2012-CD4-223/ VL-62       9.5%
2/14/2013--CD4-215/ VL-119      13.6%
7/3/2013---CD4-256/ VL-UD       18.0%
10/18/2013 CD4-223/ VL-UD       22.2%
01/23/2014-CD4-381/VL-UD       25.3%--Dropped the Bactrim

"arrrrhhhhh ahhrrhhhhh aaaarrhhh"- Chewbacca

Offline whatthe123

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2012, 07:37:53 PM »
I am in Canada and here we don't go to the ER for tachycardia and ask them to throw in an HIV test?

Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2012, 08:46:13 PM »
I do not know, but I am sure there is someplace where you can get tested.
Started Meds On 5/1/2012 Norvair, Truvada, Prezista, and Bactrim

4/17/2012--CD4 83/ VL 353,000  7.0%
5/15/2012--CD4 218/ VL 4,970    14.1%
6/27/2012--CD4 146/ VL 420      6.1%
10/11/2012-CD4-223/ VL-62       9.5%
2/14/2013--CD4-215/ VL-119      13.6%
7/3/2013---CD4-256/ VL-UD       18.0%
10/18/2013 CD4-223/ VL-UD       22.2%
01/23/2014-CD4-381/VL-UD       25.3%--Dropped the Bactrim

"arrrrhhhhh ahhrrhhhhh aaaarrhhh"- Chewbacca

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2012, 08:48:10 PM »
Mrmojo, it's a rule of this site as stated in the opening thread that only those who are authorized to do so can answer other members. Otherwise you're supposed to stay only in your own thread. Thanks for your cooperation.
Andy Velez

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 3 licks of death!
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2012, 08:51:20 PM »
Listen What, if you google virtually any symptoms HIV will come up. All that stuff is utterly meaningless. The ONLY blood test that matters in terms of getting an answer about HIV is the standard HIV test.

No other blood test can give you reliable information about your HIV status.

At this point with your non-risk situation, if you continue to return here with more doubts and what ifs you are going to find yourself getting a Time Out from the site. HIV is not your problem but as I said previously, you can get tested for your peace of mind and collect the inevitable negative result.

There's nothing more we can do for you here.
Andy Velez

 


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