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Poll

Are you 100% Gay if you never had sex with the opposite sex?

YES
7 (41.2%)
NO
1 (5.9%)
MAYBE
0 (0%)
ONLY DURING "GOD LOVES FRIDAYS."
2 (11.8%)
WHO CARES
7 (41.2%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: May 22, 2012, 08:09:10 AM

Author Topic: Shades of Gay...  (Read 7092 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline red_Dragon888

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Shades of Gay...
« on: May 20, 2012, 08:09:10 AM »
It is a question that I was wondering for years for some of my friends feel to never of had sex with the opposite sex is truly gay, or is it they just had an early start to the Gay gene trigger at, let me say, age 3, if you believe in such a thing.  Or it could be for others just a minor delay in full human sexuality that allows for sexual experimentation. (Hell, I know a guy that didn't come out until he was forty)  It could be just a variation of early human sexually that is rated based on the "Bell curve."  blab, blab, blab...  What the hub, bub?   ;)  This inquiring mind wish to know your opinion.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:12:37 AM by red_Dragon888 »
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2012, 08:19:17 AM »
Poll fail.

Gay != homosexual.

Gay is an identity. Homosexual refers to a pattern of behaviours.

MtD

Offline Ann

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 10:52:56 AM »
Poll fail.

Gay != homosexual.

Gay is an identity. Homosexual refers to a pattern of behaviours.

MtD

Nitpicker.

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 10:57:16 AM »
I don't think it's nitpicking. I self-identified clearly as gay by the age of 16 (I knew earlier but thought it was a phase, 16 was the age I stopped thinking it was a phase) and yet I had sex with two different girls in college, even though I was also doing it with guys. In fact, one girl I met at a gay club.

Hence I was a gay man (identity wise) that engaged in heterosexual behavior.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline OneTampa

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 10:59:40 AM »
Nitpicker.

Go Ann!

As my fierce mama (may she rest in peace) used to say "Child, you are a picker of damn nits!"

Anyway, I guess I am a person-sexual with fluid tendencies. I am sure my partner and child would love that one. :D
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 11:05:02 AM by OneTampa »
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Offline mecch

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 02:06:00 PM »
Something is screwy about the poll's wording or conception.
Why not be 100% Gay and yet have had sex with the opposite sex.
Whats the point in this day and age.  People are what they say they are.
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Offline Joe K

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 02:25:05 PM »
For me, I voted who cares, because, well, who cares?

Joe

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 03:37:53 PM »
One can be attracted exclusively (or overwhelmingly) to the same sex without ever having experienced anything sexual with the same sex.

One can self-identify as straight or not self-identify as anything (live in the closet) and yet be attracted exclusively (or overwhelmingly) to the same sex.

Many ‘men who have sex with men’ (MSM) do not self-identify as ‘gay’.

Many gay men have never had sexual intercourse with members of the same sex.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2012, 03:45:12 PM »

Many gay men have never had sexual intercourse with members of the same sex.


What's your definition of the word "many"? I swear I don't think I've met a gay virgin in my entire life. I'm sure I must have, but I would not use the word "many".
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2012, 03:50:14 PM »
What's your definition of the word "many"? I swear I don't think I've met a gay virgin in my entire life. I'm sure I must have, but I would not use the word "many".

LOL, true. I meant, I have met 'quite a few' guys who 'say' that they don't engage in anal sex but do everything else. I've met many guys like that in some middle eastern countries, maybe it's got to do with social conditioning. Dunno.

Edited to add: There must be loads of virgin gay men in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan etc right?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 03:59:12 PM by spacebarsux »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2012, 03:59:00 PM »
LOL, true. I meant, I have met 'quite a few' guys who 'say' that they don't engage in anal sex but do everything else. I've met many guys like that in some middle eastern countries, maybe it's got to do with social conditioning. Dunno.

Oh, I didn't realize we meant specifically anal sex. The term "intercourse" can sometimes be broad enough to include oral sex, even though traditionally it was used as a term for heterosexual coitus.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2012, 04:03:41 PM »
These types of arguments typically circulate around the age old "nature vs. nurture" paradigm. I personally think human sexuality is a combination of both, and in some instances one variable may be a stronger influence than the other.

In the classes I have had in human sexuality and sociology, it is typically a hell worthy trespass from professors to even infer that sexuality is a "choice". However, considering that there is no data that is forthcoming in biology or genetics that I have ever read in the peer-reviewed literature, is it really so outrageous to make the argument?

I personally think the issue is far more complex than academia of any stripe can tackle, but I got some deeper insight from reading books from Michael Foucault on the subject. In particular, The History of Sexuality and The Archeology of Knowledge I found to be fantastic reads and a change in the rather dogmatic assertions on the subject you get from contemporary academia.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 04:05:57 PM by CODgamerz »
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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2012, 04:34:35 PM »
Since one can’t be ‘made gay’, just as one can’t be ‘made straight’, and since a gay person can’t stop one’s self from having gay feelings no matter how hard they try, I’m much more inclined to believe that homosexual feelings are ‘innate’ in the same way as writing left-handed comes naturally to a left-handed person. Thus, if a self-identifying straight guy has many gay friends and one night ends up sleeping with a man, the logical inference I’d draw is that he finally acted on his hitherto-suppressed gay tendencies, certainly not that his social surroundings pushed him to gaydom.

I personally consider same-sex attraction to be hereditary/ genetic. I think it was for me. Though I don’t deny that ‘nurture’ may play an influential role for some people, In this context I think ‘nurture’ means a ‘conducive external environment’ enabling, rather than precluding, someone from acting freely, in accordance with their inner nature. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 03:32:15 AM by spacebarsux »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2012, 05:01:31 PM »
What a relief! I can finally blame my parents for making me gay.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2012, 05:51:35 PM »
Since one can’t be ‘made gay’, just as one can’t be ‘made straight’, and since a gay person can’t stop one’s self from having gay feelings no matter how hard they try, I’m much more inclined to believe that homosexual feelings are ‘innate’ in the same way as writing left-handed comes naturally to a left-handed person. Thus, if a self-identifying straight guy has many gay friends and one night ends up sleeping with a man, the logical inference I’d draw is that he finally acted on his hitherto-suppressed gay tendencies, certainly not that his social surroundings pushed him to gaydom.

Interesting. When I had psyche and the subject of sexuality came up, theories were abound on the topic. Quite frankly, I consider about half of psychology to be quackery with good PR. Not 25 years ago, the DSM considered homosexuality to be a mental disorder, so you will have to forgive me for not placing too much stock in their understanding of the complexities of brain physiology, neurotransmitter interactions and synapses. 

However, people like Carl Jung and even Frued suggested that it could be attributed to any other pathological or compulsive impulses noted in human behavior. People that act on compulsion are not "crazy", they are simply acting out based upon their own personal visions of social mores as it applies to them.

Maybe someday social and behavioral scientists will have a better understanding of why we humans do the things that we do, but then again, maybe not. At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself one simple question really: Do you really care what some tenured professor with a PhD has to say about how you live your life?

I have been in academics long enough to know that for every answer I am able to form an educated assertion on, there opens twice as many unanswered questions. Over a period of time, it becomes quite cyclical.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2012, 06:05:25 PM »
Quite frankly, I consider about half of psychology to be quackery with good PR. Not 25 years ago, the DSM considered homosexuality to be a mental disorder, so you will have to forgive me for not placing too much stock in their understanding of the complexities of brain physiology, neurotransmitter interactions and synapses. 

Wow, seriously. You can find similar examples in any other scientific field. I thought you were in college.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2012, 06:25:06 PM »
Wow, seriously. You can find similar examples in any other scientific field. I thought you were in college.

Indeed; inconsistencies, differences of opinion, and lack of consensus can be found in almost any area of study. In my own field of comm and rhetoric, there is a particular subset of individuals called "critical theorists" who do not write much of anything original, and instead spend the great majority of their time finding flaws in the ideas of others. Foucault was often considered one such individual during his heyday of post-modernist writing. He drew a great deal of criticism from colleagues who used an argument against him that basically consisted of "Any idiot can burn down a bridge".

I tend to support a MOI (marketplace of ideas) approach to rhetoric. Whereby, a vast amount of information and theoretical information is out there for the individual to sift from at their leisure, to take and adapt as they see fit.

I normally use an analogy of a toolbox to express this idea. If you read a particular book on any given subject, you do not have to accept the entire premise of the book in total. Much like the toolbox in your garage, you can take from it what you need, and leave behind what you don't.

Damn, I am starting to feel like the semester never ended.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2012, 06:39:09 PM »

Edited to add: There must be loads of virgin gay men in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan etc right?

Guys in Jeddah and Riyahd get the sex they want, but publicly discrete.  Jeddah also has its not so discrete flare ups....
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2012, 07:20:02 PM »
Dubai has 41 listings on rentboy.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Joe K

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2012, 07:32:41 PM »
I generally find that the only people who argue that being gay is a choice, are not themselves gay.  Any self-respecting homo knows we were born this way.  We might fight the urges, but deep down the attraction never changes.  Anyone who claims anything different, is either delusional or lying.

Joe

Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2012, 07:39:27 PM »
I generally find that the only people who argue that being gay is a choice, are not themselves gay.  Any self-respecting homo knows we were born this way.  We might fight the urges, but deep down the attraction never changes.  Anyone who claims anything different, is either delusional or lying.

Joe

Granted and since I am not gay myself, I really do not have much room to theorize I guess, other than I tend to theorize and analyze everything. It is just how my brain works, and it can be to my determent at times.

Still, it is disingenuous of me to make assertions I can't substantiate, and I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings :(
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Offline Joe K

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2012, 07:46:54 PM »
Granted and since I am not gay myself, I really do not have much room to theorize I guess, other than I tend to theorize and analyze everything. It is just how my brain works, and it can be to my determent at times.

Still, it is disingenuous of me to make assertions I can't substantiate, and I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings :(

No apology needed, I was merely making an observation.  I knew by reading your posts that you were not gay, otherwise you would already know the answer to the gay choice question.

It's the same idea as a white person, telling a black person how they feel or how they should act.  It's impossible because the white person is not black.

Joe
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 07:48:42 PM by killfoile »

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2012, 07:47:39 PM »
Granted and since I am not gay myself, I really do not have much room to theorize I guess, other than I tend to theorize and analyze everything. It is just how my brain works, and it can be to my determent at times.

Still, it is disingenuous of me to make assertions I can't substantiate, and I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings :(

It doesn't hurt my feelings at all, but it does show me your "analysis" is rather lacking. For example, at what point did you make the choice to be heterosexual?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2012, 08:08:47 PM »
It doesn't hurt my feelings at all, but it does show me your "analysis" is rather lacking. For example, at what point did you make the choice to be heterosexual?

Most of what I know about such topics comes from books I have been required to read at one point or another, not from first hand experience (again, I study rhetoric). What we refer to in academia as "the dead white men" from the enlightenment period and post-modernist period.

My own sexuality? I can remember a strong physical attraction to females as early back as kindergarten (her name was Michelle Ethington, lol). It was as natural to me as peddling my bike up the street back in those days, and I gather that the same was probably true for many of you in terms of an attraction towards men.

All I was doing was sharing what I have learned, based upon what I have been taught in lectures, readings and papers I have wrote. I am not so brainwashed by school that I think everything in life can be explained by books.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2012, 08:14:21 PM »
This has nothing to do with books, or your imagined self-importance from being in college. If you didn't make a choice to be heterosexual why would you logically conclude that a homosexual did?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2012, 08:17:59 PM »
This has nothing to do with books, or your imagined self-importance from being in college. If you didn't make a choice to be heterosexual why would you logically conclude that a homosexual did?

I did not conclude anything actually, just tossed out theories I have ran across.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:20:35 PM by CODgamerz »
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Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2012, 08:29:29 PM »
This has nothing to do with books, or your imagined self-importance from being in college. If you didn't make a choice to be heterosexual why would you logically conclude that a homosexual did?

CHECKMATE.
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Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2012, 08:38:31 PM »
CHECKMATE.

Perhaps, if I would of stated anything of the sort, which I did not (unless you are fond of attempting to put words in my mouth).

Feel free to quote from my above passages if you find me in error.
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Offline Joe K

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2012, 08:52:44 PM »
If you didn't make a choice to be heterosexual why would you logically conclude that a homosexual did?

This is the question that always baffles me when people ask it.  As if anyone would actually CHOOSE to be part of the last minority group that it's still ok to hate and demean.  I tolerated this crap in the US for far too long and that's why we now live in Montreal.  Why the hell does anyone care what we do in private?

Joe


Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2012, 08:56:50 PM »
Why the hell does anyone care what we do in private?


Well duh, Joe -- ass licking causes sepsis.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Joe K

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2012, 08:57:18 PM »
Perhaps, if I would of stated anything of the sort, which I did not (unless you are fond of attempting to put words in my mouth).

Feel free to quote from my above passages if you find me in error.

Oh please.  Save the "supposed victim" for someone else.  Your comments supported the idea that homosexuality is influenced by many factors, none of which were genetic.  I don't tell you what it's like to be a straight man, so stop suggesting you know what it is like to be a gay man.

Joe

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2012, 09:06:15 PM »
I think you prissy old fags need to chill the fuck out. ::)

From what I can tell this is COD's comments which have y'all fussin' and cluckin' like a bunch of bantams who think they've smelt a weasel:

Quote
These types of arguments typically circulate around the age old "nature vs. nurture" paradigm. I personally think human sexuality is a combination of both, and in some instances one variable may be a stronger influence than the other.

In the classes I have had in human sexuality and sociology, it is typically a hell worthy trespass from professors to even infer that sexuality is a "choice". However, considering that there is no data that is forthcoming in biology or genetics that I have ever read in the peer-reviewed literature, is it really so outrageous to make the argument?

Doesn't seem like such an outrageous opinion to me. He's right there's no evidence to support a specific genetic basis to homosexuality. Whether or not people make an "active choice" is another matter.

There's some recent research using functional MRI which suggests most of the "choices" we think we make are made before we're even aware of them.

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2012, 09:13:06 PM »
Oh joy, the village drunk has sauntered in for the evening.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2012, 09:37:12 PM »
Oh please.  Save the "supposed victim" for someone else.  Your comments supported the idea that homosexuality is influenced by many factors, none of which were genetic.  I don't tell you what it's like to be a straight man, so stop suggesting you know what it is like to be a gay man.

Joe

You are correct, there is no genetic basis for sexuality. Be it gay, straight, trans, or any other number of possibilities. That does not mean that it does not exist, only that if it does, it has never been discovered.
Moreover, do you really need a guy in a lab-coat and an electron microscope to make you feel legitimate about who you are as a person?

Do the ultimate scientific, social, genetic, (whatever) factors really matter in the grade scope of things? You are who you are, and be proud of that.

I am not unsympathetic to the plight of homosexuals, minorities, or other people who have been ostracized or pissed on by the establishment ( I have been with gay-straight alliance for years) but that does not mean that we can't have pleasant and civilized discussions on matters without inflaming each others tempers.


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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2012, 11:43:44 PM »
Oh joy, the village drunk has sauntered in for the evening.

Haven't you had your nightly klonopin retention enema yet?

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2012, 11:51:51 PM »
Haven't you had your nightly klonopin retention enema yet?

MtD

The rectal bulb syringe was just prepared. Should I await your arrival in a black rubber nurse's uniform as usual?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2012, 12:00:09 AM »
The rectal bulb syringe was just prepared. Should I await your arrival in a black rubber nurse's uniform as usual?

Not tonight dear, I've got a couple of flagons of white zin to attend to here.

Can't that Puerto Rican "carer" you found passed in the dumpster behind the adult video store do the honours or has he sobered up and fled the scene?

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2012, 12:13:16 AM »

Can't that Puerto Rican "carer" you found passed in the dumpster behind the adult video store do the honours or has he sobered up and fled the scene?

MtD

That new one I met last week? Funny you should mention it -- here's the text conversation I had with him this afternoon:

Him: How are you going? 1:08 PM
Me: I'm fine. What's up? 2:00 PM
Him: I'm good. About to get out and enjoy this day. This sounds horrible and I apologize, but where did we meet? Must like you if you're in my phone. 2:07 PM



And now you all know why I don't date.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2012, 12:15:53 AM »
And here I was about to say that it seemed as if Matty was inferring that you were demonstrating homosexual tendencies, Philicia.
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2012, 12:23:55 AM »
That new one I met last week? Funny you should mention it -- here's the text conversation I had with him this afternoon:

Him: How are you going? 1:08 PM
Me: I'm fine. What's up? 2:00 PM
Him: I'm good. About to get out and enjoy this day. This sounds horrible and I apologize, but where did we meet? Must like you if you're in my phone. 2:07 PM



And now you all know why I don't date.

You don't need to date anymore, love. It sounds as though you've found a keeper!

And here I was about to say that it seemed as if Matty was inferring that you were demonstrating homosexual tendencies, Philicia.

Perish the thought darling! Didn't you read above? Miss P is a heterosexual ghey!

Very hipster, no?

MtD

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2012, 03:48:53 AM »
He's right there's no evidence to support a specific genetic basis to homosexuality. Whether or not people make an "active choice" is another matter.


True, there's no conclusive scientific evidence, but there is some data that lends credence to the view that biology does play a role (whether big or small is a matter of ongoing debate).

I know Wiki is slightly dubious source but here goes, for amusement if nothing else:

"-Blanchard and Klassen (1997) reported that each older brother increases the odds of a man being gay by 33%. This is now "one of the most reliable epidemiological variables ever identified in the study of sexual orientation."

-A number of sections of the brain have been reported to be sexually dimorphic; that is, they vary between men and women. There have also been reports of variations in brain structure corresponding to sexual orientation. In 1990, Swaab and Hofman reported a difference in the size of the suprachiasmatic nucleus between homosexual and heterosexual men.In 1992, Allen and Gorski reported a difference related to sexual orientation in the size of the anterior commissure.

-The early fixation hypothesis includes research into prenatal development and the environmental factors that control masculinization of the brain. Some studies have seen pre-natal hormone exposures as the primary factor involved in determining sexual orientation.

Physiological
 
Some studies have found correlations between physiology of people and their sexuality. These studies provide evidence which they claim suggests that:
 Gay men report, on an average, slightly longer and thicker penises than no[50]n-gay men.
 Gay men and straight women have, on average, equally proportioned brain hemispheres. Lesbian women and straight men have, on average, slightly larger right brain hemispheres.
 The VIP SCN nucleus of the hypothalamus is larger in men than in women, and larger in gay men than in heterosexual men.
 The average size of the INAH-3 in the brains of gay men is approximately the same size as INAH 3 in women, which is significantly smaller, and the cells more densely packed, than in heterosexual men's brains.

 The anterior commissure is larger in women than men and was reported to be larger in gay men than in non-gay men, but a subsequent study found no such difference.
 Gay men's brains respond differently to fluoxetine, a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor.
 The functioning of the inner ear and the central auditory system in lesbians and bisexual women are more like the functional properties found in men than in non-gay women (the researchers argued this finding was consistent with the prenatal hormonal theory of sexual orientation).
 The suprachiasmatic nucleus was found by Swaab and Hopffman to be larger in gay men than in non-gay men, the suprachiasmatic nucleus is also known to be larger in men than in women.
 The startle response (eyeblink following a loud sound) is similarly masculinized in lesbians and bisexual women.
 Gay and non-gay people's brains respond differently to two putative sex pheromones (AND, found in male armpit secretions, and EST, found in female urine).
The amygdala, a region of the brain, is more active in gay men than non-gay men when exposed to sexually arousing material.
 Finger length ratios between the index and ring fingers may be different between non-gay and lesbian women.
 Gay men and lesbians are significantly more likely to be left-handed or ambidextrous than non-gay men and women;Simon LeVay argues that because "[h]and preference is observable before birth... [t]he observation of increased non-right-handness in gay people is therefore consistent with the idea that sexual orientation is influenced by prenatal processes," perhaps heredity.
 A study of 50 gay men found 23% had counterclockwise hair whirl, as opposed to 8% in the general population. This may correlate with left-handedness.
 Gay men have increased ridge density in the fingerprints on their left thumbs and pinkies.
 Length of limbs and hands of gay men is smaller compared to height than the general population, but only among white men.
 
Cognitive
 
Recent studies suggest the presence of subtle differences in the way gay people and non-gay people process certain kinds of information. Researchers have found that:
 Gay men and lesbians are more verbally fluent than heterosexuals of the same sex (but two studies did not find this result).
 Gay men may receive higher scores than non-gay men on tests of object location memory (no difference was found between lesbians and non-gay women)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
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Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2012, 10:15:41 AM »

Perish the thought darling! Didn't you read above? Miss P is a heterosexual ghey!

Very hipster, no?

MtD

Oh, silly me.  I get it now: Miss P is a metrosexual!  I'll just bet Mecchie was inspired to leap out of the Twilight coffin and go trolling after that revelation.
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. 
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Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
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Offline Buckmark

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2012, 10:45:19 AM »
In the classes I have had in human sexuality and sociology, it is typically a hell worthy trespass from professors to even infer that sexuality is a "choice". However, considering that there is no data that is forthcoming in biology or genetics that I have ever read in the peer-reviewed literature, is it really so outrageous to make the argument?

Where's the data in peer-reviewed literature that you would use to assert that homosexuality is a choice?

If you're going to have a discussion with gays and throw around the idea that homosexuality is a choice, you have to expect a pretty vehement reaction to the contrary.  Too many gay people have been beat up by their families, clergy, or conservatards in general with the argument that we chose to be homosexual.  That is usually accompanied by either the tacit or explicit argument that because we made a choice, we don't deserve certain rights and privileges, because we could change our choice if we wanted to. 

So saying homosexuality is a choice is pretty much a direct affront to who a gay person is.  After a lifetime of hearing this, we are pretty fucking tired of it.  If you didn't realize you would get this kind of response just by mentioning an idea that homosexuality is a choice, well, now you do know.  Or, maybe you were actually trying to start a ruckus, since you are in the communications and rhetoric field.  In that case, mission accomplished.

Regards,

Henry







"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2012, 10:54:03 AM »
Oh, silly me.  I get it now: Miss P is a metrosexual!  I'll just bet Mecchie was inspired to leap out of the Twilight coffin and go trolling after that revelation.

Actually, I'm what is called a proto-hipster, having been such since 1981. Though natuarly we did not employ the word at that time, certainly not at the illustrious 9:30 Club.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline darryaz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2012, 11:06:31 AM »
For me, I voted who cares, because, well, who cares?

Joe

+1

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2012, 11:39:04 AM »
Where's the data in peer-reviewed literature that you would use to assert that homosexuality is a choice?

If you're going to have a discussion with gays and throw around the idea that homosexuality is a choice, you have to expect a pretty vehement reaction to the contrary.  Too many gay people have been beat up by their families, clergy, or conservatards in general with the argument that we chose to be homosexual.  That is usually accompanied by either the tacit or explicit argument that because we made a choice, we don't deserve certain rights and privileges, because we could change our choice if we wanted to. 

So saying homosexuality is a choice is pretty much a direct affront to who a gay person is.  After a lifetime of hearing this, we are pretty fucking tired of it.  If you didn't realize you would get this kind of response just by mentioning an idea that homosexuality is a choice, well, now you do know.  Or, maybe you were actually trying to start a ruckus, since you are in the communications and rhetoric field.  In that case, mission accomplished.

Regards,

Henry

If the argument for gay rights is based on the premise "we can't help it!" then it is pretty flimsy. If homosexuality was found to be a genetic marker and a "treatment" for homosexuality were created this argument would fall apart. There is more to sex than intercourse and there is more to being gay than sex. Morally and politically it doesn't matter if being gay is predetermined or chosen freely: the right to engage in sexual and personal relationships with other consenting adults is inherent.

I'm open to exploring the role of choice in sexuality and behavior. Some people's sexual attraction appears to be more fixed than others and not just in the heterosexual/homosexual dichotomy. Some people have very specific interests, they only interested in a narrow range of stimuli or activities, where other people are more open to a wide variety of experiences: different sexual acts, multiple partners, partners of different ages, racial backgrounds, etc. Sexuality is a fascinating, complex subject and the influences of experience, choice, neurology and genetics should all be explored without fear that we might offend someone's sensibilities.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2012, 12:13:49 PM »
If the argument for gay rights is based on the premise "we can't help it!" then it is pretty flimsy. If homosexuality was found to be a genetic marker and a "treatment" for homosexuality were created this argument would fall apart. There is more to sex than intercourse and there is more to being gay than sex. Morally and politically it doesn't matter if being gay is predetermined or chosen freely: the right to engage in sexual and personal relationships with other consenting adults is inherent.

I'm open to exploring the role of choice in sexuality and behavior. Some people's sexual attraction appears to be more fixed than others and not just in the heterosexual/homosexual dichotomy. Some people have very specific interests, they only interested in a narrow range of stimuli or activities, where other people are more open to a wide variety of experiences: different sexual acts, multiple partners, partners of different ages, racial backgrounds, etc. Sexuality is a fascinating, complex subject and the influences of experience, choice, neurology and genetics should all be explored without fear that we might offend someone's sensibilities.

I'm not sure I can see it that way. Though not to minimize the chance that extrinsic factors may play a role for some people (although I haven’t met anyone who claims this, other than in the context of external environment facilitating actions on inner desires), if ‘sexuality’ (whether gay, straight, bi or anywhere on the Kinsey Scale) is found to be genetic/hereditary, it does not automatically insinuate gayness as an aberration or a condition that needs to be cured, but rather erects a scientific backbone supporting the view that  sexuality, is largely inborn or innate, much like other unique personal traits may be, like: being left-handed, ambidextrous, strong preferences or aversions for certain foods, being introverted or extroverted et al.

If scientific evidence backs the notion that sexuality (any kind of sexuality) is beyond personal control and not a caprice, nor a choice (as I believe it to be), it makes the moral and political arguments in favour of gay equality virtually infallible. 

The subject, I concede, isn’t black and white because sexuality, human emotions, impulses and actions aren’t entirely rational and scientific a lot of the time, and thus, if someone found to have the ‘gay-gene’ exhibits straight behaviour, it might weaken the case – or perhaps raise further questions ?!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 12:15:46 PM by spacebarsux »
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2012, 12:45:44 PM »
If scientific evidence backs the notion that sexuality (any kind of sexuality) is beyond personal control and not a caprice, nor a choice (as I believe it to be), it makes the moral and political arguments in favour of gay equality virtually infallible. 

My argument is that the right of consenting adults to engage in sexual and emotional relationships is morally and politically infallible regardless of whether sexual orientation is "beyond personal control". It is an inherent human right and not contingent on free will or lack there of.

The more I read the more evidence I find that supports that human behavior, not just sexual but all behavior, is more influenced by neurology and genetics than many people would like to admit. I am beginning to appreciate the philosophical perspective of materialism-- that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. We are our neurology.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 12:47:18 PM by GSOgymrat »

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2012, 12:49:43 PM »
Is there an intelligence difference between gays and straights?  Or, between really fem or masculine gays?  Read that last post.  Sounds like something from a college thesis than a forum entry.  I've noticed most here are able to express themselves so well and with an ample vocabulary.  I don't have that ability.  I use to think so, before coming here.  Btw, I fall somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey Scale. 

Modified-- Meant Space's post in particular, but most here fit what I'm talking about. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 12:53:01 PM by tednlou2 »

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2012, 01:03:08 PM »
My argument is that the right of consenting adults to engage in sexual and emotional relationships is morally and politically infallible regardless of whether sexual orientation is "beyond personal control". It is an inherent human right and not contingent on free will or lack there of.


Of course, I totally agree with you on this.

However, I differ in that scientific evidence supporting the view that it is 'beyond personal control/choice' would somehow undermine arriving at the above viewpoint for the majority of people, in fact I think it would bring most people nearer to such a mindset. 

A lot of straight people do think it is a choice or an aberration etc etc. Scientific evidence, if and when it surfaces, will counter that forcefully.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2012, 01:24:41 PM »
In the early eighties, all the prettiest boys on campus chose to enjoy some dick.  And many of the the average boys too.  And the raciest gay boys had one or two hetero flings.  This, before any of us knew about HIV/AIDS, and it was the last little flameout of chic bisexuality.  Oh all the women were on the pill or had diaphragms.  It was all too easy. 

A lot of it was choosing to be "wild" and cool, but I bet pretty much everyone's sexuality was really, already fixed, and ended up pretty quickly back to more or less hetero or homo.  I don't think there are all that many practicing bisexuals in comparison to mostly homos, mostly heteros, or "entirely" ones or the others.  AIDS seemed to make bisexuality REALLY improbable when I was living and working in NYC in the mid and late 80's.  Ladies were no longer terribly interesting in screwing their gay buddies, that's for sure.   

I seem to remember there was a little S.F. trend of lesbians and gays getting all bi with each other, in the 90's.  But my memory falters....  This true?  I only lived there in 85.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:27:07 PM by mecch »
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Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2012, 01:40:55 PM »
I'm open to exploring the role of choice in sexuality and behavior. Some people's sexual attraction appears to be more fixed than others and not just in the heterosexual/homosexual dichotomy. Some people have very specific interests, they only interested in a narrow range of stimuli or activities, where other people are more open to a wide variety of experiences: different sexual acts, multiple partners, partners of different ages, racial backgrounds, etc. Sexuality is a fascinating, complex subject and the influences of experience, choice, neurology and genetics should all be explored without fear that we might offend someone's sensibilities.

I am firmly with GSO on this topic. I do not think scientific evidence for genetic predisposition is necessarily of much importance when you look upon the topic of sexuality holistically.  Even if genetic markers were someday identified, I think it would be intellectual sloth to reduce anything as complex as human sexuality to "born this way and call it a day". As many of you have identified, there is a wide variety of potential variables at work here, and perhaps numerous others that we have not even envisioned. Human beings also change and adapt over time. Much like our palate for food and drink changes, so do our sexual appetites shift and evolve. We are not static entities. If we were, life would be pretty boring would it not?

I also agree with GSO that political correctness and social niceties should never dictate areas for scholarly research or even casual conversation like we find ourselves doing here. When we self-censor and limit our thinking to only that which conforms to our personal perceptions, we become closed minded fools who are a slave to our own prejudices and bias.

Sexuality is indeed a fascinating topic, and one that deserves to be explored with critical thinking for all of the possibilities.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:43:08 PM by CODgamerz »
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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2012, 01:52:24 PM »
I Human beings also change and adapt over time. Much like our palate for food and drink changes, so do our sexual appetites shift and evolve. We are not static entities. If we were, life would be pretty boring would it not?


Not suggesting that this is entirely false for everyone, but do you think your sexuality could 'shift and evolve'? Could you see your appetite for heterosexual sex 'evolving' to a desire for homosexual sex having a similar degree of voracious lust you presently feel for women ?
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2012, 02:22:16 PM »
Is there an intelligence difference between gays and straights?  Or, between really fem or masculine gays? 

lolwat... o rite, you see yourself as hyper-masculine. I've seen your pictars darling and I could clock you from a satellite in space.

Btw, I fall somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey Scale.

Don't make me laugh, girl. Were you servicing women in that adult bookstore peep show booth years ago?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2012, 04:55:02 PM »
Not suggesting that this is entirely false for everyone, but do you think your sexuality could 'shift and evolve'? Could you see your appetite for heterosexual sex 'evolving' to a desire for homosexual sex having a similar degree of voracious lust you presently feel for women ?

I would not rule out the possibility. I do know that there are several gay men who spend a majority of their life heterosexual only to change later. That change could be attributable to many things though. Perhaps they had always had those desires and social pressures or mores made them repress such feelings? Or perhaps their own sexuality evolved as they experienced new environmental or social stimuli? Hell, maybe they just got bored and wanted to experience something new.

The why is not so much important to me as the social freedom to explore this without the confines of repressive social, political or historical dogma. Some of the current political landscape of the United States still clings to this ambiguous notion of collective morality. I am a firm believer that what happens between consenting adults is not something that should be legislated.

Of course, I suppose you could make the argument that my own overzealous exploration to that end is what landed me here to begin with, but that is another matter entirely.
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2012, 05:04:40 PM »
Well the poll maybe poorly conceived, or could have been put together better, but it was just to start a discussion. 

For me, I am ashamed to say, would have cut out the Gayness when I first felt the attraction and realized that greater society looked down on such sexual actions. That from the ages from thirteen to eighteen.  After I accepted that not only I was happier being Gay, but I was willing to fight the prejudiced. That took awhile to get to that mindset, but cheers to those brave warriors who fought all their lives to be who they are.

I was expecting some ridicule or the like, but I like all the input.  I now realize being born Hetero, just saying, from that point of view on the topic would be like comparing potatoes with tomatoes.  One brown, the other red, one is grows on a vine, the other in the ground, one has seeds, the is a type of seed, one gay the other is bi etc...   Well, it was interesting and a good read. 


 
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Offline mecch

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2012, 07:10:45 PM »
Lately the only time I care about how straight people want to define me (and everyone else for that matter) is if they have power and want to limit my equal rights.  No equal rights? They can cram their beliefs up the wazoo.  Respect my equal rights, shove the rest. 

Open minded "straights" so curious to put everyone in categories, what a snore as well.

Geez, their "position" isn't so damn central, nor their identity built on solid ground. 

I guess its cute for young people to discuss..  Or people who aren't all that sophisticated. Or from cultures where this is all somewhat new and controversial.

If its done with an open heart and open mind, ok ok. 

Personally I find it irksome.  Color me crotchety.  :-\
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2012, 08:24:44 PM »
I think gymrat expresses it the best. 

I am not sure the value of "scientific" proof (of anything having to do with sexualized identities or sexual behavior and homo/heterosexualities) having much to say to people who would withhold civil rights, or social respect, to one sexual "identity".  People who have elected themselves into a "norm" and given themselves the right to judge and define.

"Scientific" race theories of the 19th century gave us, oh I dunno, 20th century holocausts.   

Evolution is scientific fact but 50% (?) of Americans seem dumb enough to believe christian creation myths and further establish false equivalencies - such as that religious hogwash can be logically debated on par with scientific facts, or taught in public schools.  What baloney. 



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Offline mecch

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2012, 08:41:42 PM »
Oh, and Romney believes that marriage (besides being the bedrock of all things strong and good of the greatest nation in the world) is between one man and one woman.  Conveniently ignoring that his pa and grandpa were polygamists. 

Think these people care about science?  About any kind of intellectual integrity?  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2012, 10:29:27 PM »
Oh, and Romney believes that marriage (besides being the bedrock of all things strong and good of the greatest nation in the world) is between one man and one woman.  Conveniently ignoring that his pa and grandpa were polygamists. 

Think these people care about science?  About any kind of intellectual integrity?  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Bullshit.

George Romney's grandparents (Mitt's great-grandparents) were polygamists. George and his parents were monogamists.

MtD

Offline Joe K

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2012, 12:23:19 AM »
I wonder if gay folks, go to straight support sites and ask them if they think heterosexuality is a choice?

Joe

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2012, 02:41:39 AM »
I do know that there are several gay men who spend a majority of their life heterosexual only to change later. That change could be attributable to many things though. Perhaps they had always had those desires and social pressures or mores made them repress such feelings?

Yeah, it's almost always that. Or they're a degree of bisexual, not entirely satisfied being monogamous with a woman and feel the need to dip their beak into manly testosterone every now and then. I don’t mean to condescend, but being a straight guy you can’t possibly grasp the variety of factors that push many gays into the closet or to ‘live a lie’, at times even deluding themselves that they’re ‘normal’- so as to fall into line with what family/society expects of you. (Not saying this is right, but that it does happen everywhere to some degree.) Nearly all gays will attest to the fact that they’ve always felt at some level, that they were born outside the conventions of what’s considered acceptable.

Honestly, all of this evolution of sexuality and ‘one should be able to choose what you want’ sounds great in theory, but in practice I feel sexuality is far more intrinsic and hardwired than that. I don’t think I’m off the mark in saying that for the vast majority of people, we can’t help whom we’re attracted to. It happens of its own accord. The reason I'm (and I suspect Joe, Henry, Miss P and some others are) mildly irritated by this all-embracing ‘you get to pick your sexuality’ theorizing is that it could more likely give fodder to bigots and homophobes, of whom there’s no scarcity in this world, to inject a vicious bite into the argument that gays exercise an ‘active choice’ in being different- that we've given into carnal perversions, that we’re deviants who chose the path of mortal sin.

Do not forget that across the world heterosexuality is presupposed to be the expected norm and being gay is considered to be outside the conventions of what’s ‘normal’. Choice of sexuality as a birth right sounds very idealistic but I think society as a whole needs to evolve first to the point that a mother would tell her straight 18 year old son, “Son, why don’t you explore your sexuality and go on a date with Liam. He’s so handsome and charming. Give it a go.” I can’t see any parent telling their straight son that- for homosexuality is not deemed to be on an equal footing with heterosexuality by most people. When was the last time you heard of a straight person being physically assaulted for simply being heterosexual?  A person’s heterosexuality is never challenged, but all gay people’s homosexual proclivities have been called into scrutiny at some point by someone or the other, in one form or another, let alone the prejudice faced from society at large. Until society as a whole 'evolves' to the point of accepting all forms of sexual expression and identity being on par, in my opinion, all of this equality of choice stuff (as a political and moral imperative) is counterproductive since it encumbers the path to attaining global equality for all sexual minorities.

Edited for clarity
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 03:27:39 AM by spacebarsux »
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Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2012, 12:11:19 PM »


Honestly, all of this evolution of sexuality and ‘one should be able to choose what you want’ sounds great in theory, but in practice I feel sexuality is far more intrinsic and hardwired than that. I don’t think I’m off the mark in saying that for the vast majority of people, we can’t help whom we’re attracted to. It happens of its own accord. The reason I'm (and I suspect Joe, Henry, Miss P and some others are) mildly irritated by this all-embracing ‘you get to pick your sexuality’ theorizing is that it could more likely give fodder to bigots and homophobes, of whom there’s no scarcity in this world, to inject a vicious bite into the argument that gays exercise an ‘active choice’ in being different- that we've given into carnal perversions, that we’re deviants who chose the path of mortal sin.


Edited for clarity


That is just it man. I don't really think sexuality is "active" choice at all. Like, for example, I am choosing to have Subway for lunch. I think it works on a more subconscious (or "innate" as you say) level that is influenced by a host of other factors. Moreover, I think it is entirely too complex for us to attempt to hypothesize on here. People have wrote 200 page doctoral dissertations on the subject and still barely scratched the surface.

I would also agree that bigots may try to use sexuality/scholarly research in a manner to further their prejudices. I can think of an example of the book "The Bell Curve", written by Hernnstein and Murray, which explored the idea of intelligence quotient. The book itself is well constructed from a research standpoint, but because it made reference to race in 2 chapters, White supremacy clans (who probably lack the intelligence to even read the book) attempted to use it to fuel their bigotry.

While I find situations like these unfortunate, does that mean that the academic community should simply not study certain areas because it may make certain demographics uncomfortable? I think that scenario is even more repressive and dictatorial than the status quo.



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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2012, 12:17:02 PM »
Moreover, I think it is entirely too complex for us to attempt to hypothesize on here.

In fairness, you began the tangent of this discussion two days ago:


In the classes I have had in human sexuality and sociology, it is typically a hell worthy trespass from professors to even infer that sexuality is a "choice". However, considering that there is no data that is forthcoming in biology or genetics that I have ever read in the peer-reviewed literature, is it really so outrageous to make the argument?
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Offline CODgamerz

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2012, 12:22:57 PM »
In fairness, you began the tangent of this discussion two days ago:

Perhaps, but I drew no conclusions, only posed questions, and I did so in a respectful manner.

Saying that these types of discussions are off limits is about akin to the republicans saying stem-cell research is immoral and should not pursued either.
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Offline Joe K

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2012, 01:06:16 PM »
Perhaps, but I drew no conclusions, only posed questions, and I did so in a respectful manner.

Saying that these types of discussions are off limits is about akin to the republicans saying stem-cell research is immoral and should not pursued either.

Nobody said anything about not wanting to discuss the topic, only that we expected some sensitivity from you as the OP.  After a few replies it became apparent that some of us bristled at what you had said and that is our right.  Nobody raked you over the coals, but you seem unable to truly understand how damaging this idea of "gay choice" really is to us.  I'm 58 years old and I have been despised for being gay since the day I was born.  When I tested poz and came out as gay, my friends, my church and even my father turned me away, because of who I am.

Do you have any concept on what it is like, to be a child and hear everyone around you denouncing you, simply because you are gay.  I didn't do anything to deserve this hatred, I simply existed.  There was nothing I could have (or should have) done to change who I am, because the problem does not lie with me.  To put you in my place, when is the last time you were denigrated for being a heterosexual?  And isn't a lot of the stigma directed as you, because you are poz, also based on the assumption that you must be gay.  I imagine you might find it very unsettling to be judged, based on prejudice and stereotypes.  I know I do.

I don't think you appreciate how sensitive this subject is to gays and now you know.  This thread is not just some academic discussion, it's a discussion about many of our lives and the pain and suffering we have experienced at the hands of others.

Joe

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2012, 01:30:56 PM »
Perhaps, but I drew no conclusions, only posed questions,

... sounded like a conclusion to me


These types of arguments typically circulate around the age old "nature vs. nurture" paradigm. I personally think human sexuality is a combination of both, and in some instances one variable may be a stronger influence than the other.
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2012, 02:58:49 PM »
True, there's no conclusive scientific evidence, but there is some data that lends credence to the view that biology does play a role (whether big or small is a matter of ongoing debate).

I know Wiki is slightly dubious source but here goes, for amusement if nothing else:
...

Personally I don't think biology "plays a role" but that biology is the predominant factor in the equation of sexuality and sexual orientation. Being born male or female is the most obvious characterist but I suspect that sexual attraction and orientation is similar to temperament, which is present at birth. Psychologist Jerome Kagan did research where he found that infants are born with a temperamental disposition to be either inhibited or uninhibited, which can be measured in the brain and observed in the way they react to unfamiliar situations and persons. Inhibited children are shy, timid, and cautious, while uninhibited children are bold, social, and outgoing. What is particularly telling about these temperamental characteristics is that they are more than mere personality quirks or curiosities; they can have influences on behavior, attitudes, and even material success that extend well into later life-depending on the ways in which they interact with the individual's environment. Kagan's research agenda has involved identifying and examining characteristics that appear to influence individuals' development. While temperament is the most important characteristic, he and his colleagues have isolated several others, including birth order, identification with an influential family member, being valued by one's parents, and one's personal history of success or failure.

I suspect all these factors influence sexual expression in a similar manner, with a biological predisposition toward a particular sexual orientation being the most influential. I have no good research to support this theory but it fits my subjective experience. I'm introverted by temperament, by all account have been so my entire life and Kagan's research indicates I was born this way. I have spent my life conditioning myself to deal with social situations and can "fake"extroversion but I'm always going to be exhausted by groups, live in my head, think twice before speaking... oh, and not be a fan of having people who I am not intimate with hug me. I think my homosexual orientation is similarly innate-- I could "fake" being straight with varying degrees of success but I'm always going to revert to my "sexual temperament", so to speak.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2012, 03:26:17 PM »
Personally I don't think biology "plays a role" but that biology is the predominant factor in the equation of sexuality and sexual orientation.

I feel likewise. Most of us know from within that it isn't a choice and thus, if unequivocal scientific evidence corroborates this somewhere down the road, then I don't see it as a bad development in LGBT history.
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2012, 05:37:33 AM »
Cheers people,

Here is a video called "THE BUTCH FACTOR" that may add to your insight on the topic.  I just happened to run across this movie this morning when I was searching for "X Factor."   

http://stagevu.com/video/ppmaebpzxbzm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

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Offline songs06

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2012, 06:05:01 AM »
there is sure a genetic basis for homosexuality, well it is not proven yet. so not possible to say it is true, or other way. like CODgamerz told it is not possible to say anything for certain. (like saying "it is not genetic.")

for me, it is not a choice of course. it is not called sexual preferences anymore, it is sexual orientation. everyone knows that :) it is obviously not a choice, even it is a choice, it is not made by the person himself/herself. it can't be only genetic because it is not inherited any genetic way we know. it obviously need "outer stimulation". there might be people with same genetic basis about homosexuality and one can be gay and other can be heterosexual. this means genetic basis mostly need external stimulus. so only logical think i can think of is, a easy one, genetic+external stimulus. external stimulus includes all your birth, infancy, childhood etc... everybody knows psychosexual development stages now, so it is not easy to guess actually.

of course this could be totally wrong, homosexuality could not be a difference but a disorder. i am gay myself, and i don't believe this. but it is not possible to say something "disorder" or "choice" without proving the otherwise. maybe we cannot say it is "something" but we can say it is not a choice. because "choice" is human made word. and it means "choosing something". i haven't met any gay person who says "i am gay because i wanted to be."

and of course there is another thing called bisexual. my current bf is a bisexual, he is really a great guy. although he had sex with men before, i am his first boyfriend. his previous relationships are always girls. and he still finds girls attractive as much as a heterosexual guy. i be live, it is not simple as being "gay" "bisexual" "heterosexual". like Kinsey's findings, it might be scale, which could be really complicated. but i don't believe any of these is choice.

for example: you can choose to have sex with a girl or boy if you are bi, but you cannot choose to be a bisexual.
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2012, 09:32:34 AM »
I CHOOSE to be GAY because I CHOOSE to be HAPPY...

I've just read all the post, and "WHAT BIG TEETH YOU HAVE GRANDMA."  I feel that I had inclinations to be gay definitely in ages from 8 t0 16.   At that stage I choose to act straight, (as best I could) walk straight, (no twitching) and talk straight (keep the topics on sports).  Of course my ability was limited to what I was conditioned to believe was being a MAN, and follow that maze to the goal of society acceptances.  I did not  always colored inside the lines, which showed sometime when guys would say that they can really talk to me rather than the others guys.  I guess I was a real listener and not just "shooting the breeze" to whomever was in ear shot.

But there did come a point that I had to be open to my wonted need for sexual if not casual and intimate contact with other men.  It was just not worth the price to  go the path of sex with women, getting married, having kids, grand kids, family reunions with other straight families, etc... and the whole time in pain for I would be hiding the secret that my true nature was to be GAY.   It was a choice to be Happy and live freely or to be miserable and beg for death. 

Either way there are "MANY SHADES OF SEXUALITY," and being Gay is just one of them.  I should have known that the topic of "nurture vs. nature" would come up, but really it then becomes a two way street.  Just like "when you go BLACK you wont go back,"  ;)  so is "once you go GAY you want to stay that way."  Yeah, off topic...  What I meant to say was that if N v N is the cause of being Gay, then the reverse is true.  Have anyone wrote a paper saying that heterosexuality is divergent from the norm and therefore must be eliminated?  Blab, blab, blab...  Too must noise in my head. 

But I must say I have a better understanding and respect for those who were punished for being openly or obviously Gay; they'd fought and survived. (or some survived: let's not forget the unsung heroes who were murdered) "What does not kill you makes you stronger," but the torture and the agony of that trail.
oh the pain it causes...   
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Shades of Gay...
« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2012, 09:37:53 AM »
ps.  have your term papers turn in by Monday and final exams will be on Wednesday...   :)  Have a nice day.
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