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Author Topic: Moral dilemma  (Read 5336 times)

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Offline Bearcub201

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Moral dilemma
« on: April 28, 2012, 10:09:54 AM »
Hi all,
So I was talking to my neighbor and it turns out that he is very interested in the guy who gave me HIV.  I haven't disclosed my status to said neighbor and I'm tied up in knots thinking about whether or not to warn him him or give him some "use protection" talk. I'm really concerned for my neighbor's safety. Anybody have some input they'd like to share?
--Mike

Offline klipsch

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 10:13:52 AM »
I don't see anything to gain by your own disclosure...through warning him. I'd push the "protection" card as heavily as possible, noting the possibility of picking up other STD's with HIV as the topper.
That's just me.
when shit has value...the poor will be born without assholes...

Offline mecch

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  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 10:17:34 AM »
Your neighbor is a grown up and has received the same safer sex information as you have, right?
And you are thinking your neighbor is going to decide to have unsafe sex with a new person in his life, meaning the guy whose HIV you contacted, when you made such a decision and got HIV?

This is a lot of ifs. 

And you are both adults. 

And you don't have much of a moral right to out the other guy especially from your own position of not being someone everyone knows is HIV+.

So why not say something general, if its important to you, like "Gee willikers, there's a lot of STDS going around, a girl has to be careful these days, right?"

Or just be the village gossip and spill the beans on Typhoid Mary and maybe tell your neighbor how your know for sure.  ::)
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Bearcub201

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 11:24:45 AM »
Absolutely, we're all grown and make choices. I also don't want open myself up to any backlash or be the gossip. I guess I'm wondering if it's "normal" to feel compelled to warn him.
Yesterday, after our neighbor left, my partner told me that he was proud of me for not saying anything to give my status away or alter the other guy's rep in the community. I felt like it was too private to share at the time. I don't feel a need to get revenge or anything as I take responsibility for allowing a lapse in my STD defense net.

Thanks for insights :-) I'm in this for the long haul and it really helps to see things from different angles.

Does anyone have a link to a physical support group in Austin that I could join? I have been encountering a lot of broken links and stuff.

--Mike

Offline surf18

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 12:40:33 PM »
Oh man that is a tough call.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 12:50:26 PM »
Considering you think you obtained HIV through oral sex, which says to me there's a high degree of possibility that you don't actually know how you got it, I'd recommend minding your own business in a sexual coupling that has nothing to do with your own body.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Bearcub201

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 01:17:44 PM »
I will only say this one more time. I don't have anything to hide, gain or lose from my diagnosis or the knowing when and where and who I got HIV from. I keep a spreadsheet of my sexual partners and there were only three in the period in which I got the infection. Two of those people are HIV negative and I only did certain things with the one who was positive. He had a new infection and my Dr. told me that during the acute infection when the numbers are high it is easier to transmit the virus. The one poz guy had a new infection from December of last year and isn't on meds yet and has a high viral load.
Y'all can do the math.
I gain nothing by lying.
Perhaps it is thought that I'm mentally incompetent when it comes to making a determination, whatever you have to tell yourself.
I don't want notoriety.
I thought I'd find some semblance of acceptance here in these forums.
I only want to stop the spread of HIV. I don't have any desire to pass it along.
Check the CDC website if you think I'm incorrect about transmission routes.
Better yet, ask your infectious disease doctor.
Wow.
What do you gain by telling me I'm wrong?

Good day,
--Mike

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 01:54:17 PM »
I keep a spreadsheet of my sexual partners


LOL... like, seriously?  What a fabulous idea. 

Back to your original question: NO.  Sounds like your HIV came with an added bonus, a pet in the form of a high horse. 

This is none of your business and you have no right in outing anybody as a pozzie.  Would you like that to be done to you (who has evidently not come to terms with his own status and how he got infected)?  Let's say a coworker who believes that HIV can be transmitted via toilet seats, handshakes, sneezing, Mosquitos, an evil look, etc. finds out about your status and decides to tell everyone at the office cause he/she feels that he/she has a "moral" obligation to "protect" his/her community.  I'm sure that you'd be thrilled. 

Worry about yourself and about disclosing to your own sexual partners.  Let others act like the adults that they are.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2012, 02:02:51 PM »
Hi all,
So I was talking to my neighbor and it turns out that he is very interested in the guy who gave me HIV.  I haven't disclosed my status to said neighbor and I'm tied up in knots thinking about whether or not to warn him him or give him some "use protection" talk. I'm really concerned for my neighbor's safety. Anybody have some input they'd like to share?
--Mike

Mike,

Rather than framing this as a moral dilemma, I suggest you just think of your neighbor's safety.  If you consider your neighbor a friend, be happy that he is interested in this guy (if you think he is a nice guy).  The most you may want to do is remind him that, if/when the time comes, safe sex is the way to go.  Don't come off as preachy or disclose too many details, or he'll get suspicious.

Beyond that, I don't see there is much more you need to do.  You're not the HIV police.  And you have to remember that once you tell someone you have HIV, you can pretty much assume they'll tell everyone they know.   Everyone has responsibility for their own sexual health.  If one consents to have sex without condoms, one consents to expose themselves to HIV.

Regards,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2012, 02:04:35 PM »
...
I keep a spreadsheet of my sexual partners ...
...

Seriously?  A spreadsheet?  There ought to be an app for that. 
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline Bearcub201

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2012, 02:08:34 PM »
Sure thing Rev. Moon. I was asking for some opinions not to be told that I'm either fuzzy headed or a liar. To be honest, I'm really ticked off at the implication that I'm unable to retrace my steps. I've been getting regular blood tests for years in the vent of just this. I'm awash with the feelings of this diagnosis and I'm not always thinking clearly.
If someone would have told me, hey you're about to get HIV I think I would've wrapped that rascal before I played with it.
Any way, you all have a wonderful day.
I'm going to make some pretzels and listen to the radio.
Peace!
Mike

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 02:14:36 PM »
Seriously?  A spreadsheet?  There ought to be an app for that. 

There is! I use that app when I go to fag bars downtown so that I can warn neggies about each Typhoid Poz Mary running around sucking cock and infecting people.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2012, 02:39:15 PM »
If a guy lied about his status and had unprotected sex, either with a consenting adult or deceiving that person, you bet I would warn in some way.  Other than that, it wouldn't be my business.

About this oral sex thing, I think it's wrong to speak in absolutes.  Saying there is 0 chance is not being accurate.  Just read about oral sex risk here and at thebody.  Thebody claims many studies have shown it to be transmission vector, but low risk.  This site seems to not be able to agree with itself.  In the lessons, it says it's a theoretical risks with a handful of documented cases.  Then, says theoretical risk but not documented risk.  So, I don't think we can say absolutely no one gets it from oral. 

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2012, 02:52:35 PM »
Bearcub may I ask why you feel the need for a spread sheet on your sexual conquest ?
I Have heard the term another notch on the bed post but this is new one .



Offline bocker3

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2012, 03:32:29 PM »
I think some of you are being downright mean here.  This post was not about how the OP got infected, but a couple of you have turned it into that -- using it to belittle him. 
While I have my opinion on the likliehood of transmission of HIV via oral sex, it is not germane to his question.  You all might want to back off and remember what it was like while coming to turns with your infection and cut him some slack.

So.... Mike,  to your question -- I will echo what many of said.  Stay out of it -- let adults run their own lives.  The one way you can most effectively stop the transmission of this virus is to ensure you always practice safe sex with anyone who isn't already positive.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2012, 03:53:56 PM »
There is! I use that app when I go to fag bars downtown so that I can warn neggies about each Typhoid Poz Mary running around sucking cock and infecting people.

Developed by me and Philicia.  Only $2.99 at the app store.  Notice the "report a hoe" button at the top.

And it has a twitter function, natch.

"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline J.R.E.

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  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2012, 05:00:21 PM »
Hi,

Since he is your neighbor, you know where he lives, and you possibly have his address right? I would go down to the Health department, pick up some pamphets on HIV and how to protect oneself, from contracting HIV, and other STD's.

 ( Hopefully he already knows this, but no problem in refreshing someone's memory right  ? )

 
Put what ever info you find in an envelope, and mail it to his address. Even if you have to put a little extra postage on it, it's worth it! ( You won't even have to put your return address on the envelope.)  He won't know it's from you, and at least he has the information. From there it's his responsibility.

You could place a small typed note in with, stating from someone who cares about you and....




Take care----Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 8/2514,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 11%

  
 62 years young.

Offline mecch

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  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2012, 06:23:01 PM »
Oh and bearclub you must stop this nonsense about a spreadsheet.  ::)   It was the object of MUCH derision in NYC recently.  :o  Public thought it was kinda creepy.

http://jezebel.com/5902718/creepy-finance-guy-with-spreadsheet-of-matchcom-prospects-says-he-was-just-trying-to-be-organized

Creepy Finance Guy With Spreadsheet of Match.com ‘Prospects’ Says He Was Just Trying to Be Organized



“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2012, 06:24:30 PM »
Developed by me and Philicia.  Only $2.99 at the app store.  Notice the "report a hoe" button at the top.

And it has a twitter function, natch.



Brilliant! Bravo!
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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  • Twerk Baby Twerk
Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2012, 07:07:24 PM »
I only did certain things with the one who was positive. He had a new infection and my Dr. told me that during the acute infection when the numbers are high it is easier to transmit the virus. The one poz guy had a new infection from December of last year and isn't on meds yet and has a high viral load.

I think I used this very same logic back in the 80s. pre-condom era in the days when we called it GRID.

I will only say this one more time. I keep a spreadsheet of my sexual partners

Gotta love this. I thought all poz people did the same thing because I read it in the Poz Handbook  ::)

...and there were only three in the period in which I got the infection. Two of those people are HIV negative and  Y'all can do the math.

Check the CDC website if you think I'm incorrect about transmission routes.
Better yet, ask your infectious disease doctor.

Good day,
--Mike

I'm wondering if Excel has enough formulas to calculate the probability of all the dicks I sucked to determine exactly which one pozzed me up?

Hmmm.... =PROB(A1:A9999,B1:B9999,1,100)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 07:34:13 PM by Solo_LTSurvivor »
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. 
Last regimen:  Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

Offline Bearcub201

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2012, 07:40:19 PM »
Bearcub may I ask why you feel the need for a spread sheet on your sexual conquest ?
I Have heard the term another notch on the bed post but this is new one .
My partner gave me the idea lol, I thought it was a perfect way to keep track of one night stands in our open relationship and it has been.


Offline denb45

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2012, 07:58:18 PM »
My partner gave me the idea lol, I thought it was a perfect way to keep track of one night stands in our open relationship and it has been.

Oh I see, so the truth is out now , guess that explains things  :o
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2012, 08:00:16 PM »
My partner gave me the idea lol, I thought it was a perfect way to keep track of one night stands in our open relationship and it has been.

Well it would make for one hell of a coffee table book ... no sense in going to all the trouble of creating a spread sheet and not make a profit . Might as well run your bizness like a business .   

Offline Bearcub201

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2012, 08:09:45 PM »
Which truth is that?
Oh I see, so the truth is out now , guess that explains things  :o

Offline denb45

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2012, 08:24:24 PM »
Which truth is that?

Child, are you daft ........lol
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline drewm

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2012, 08:43:56 PM »
A spreadsheet? I would have to use Microsoft WORD because there's not enough paper to spreadsheet my trade.  :-[ :'( :o ;)
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

ATRIPLA - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2012, 08:44:26 PM »
The Plural of anecdote is not data.

I need to have that made into a tattoo. Perhaps with a soaring eagle carrying the banner in his majestic claws.

I invoke J. Del Romero and Kimberly Page-Shafer for a hundred, Alex.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2012, 09:04:04 PM »

A spreadsheet? I would have to use Microsoft WORD because there's not enough paper to spreadsheet my trade.  :-[ :'( :o ;)

It's pretty simple.

"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline denb45

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2012, 09:06:55 PM »

Ya'll are some ho's  ;D ;D ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2012, 09:42:35 PM »
Rev those 2 photos are priceless.

Offline Bearcub201

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2012, 10:12:07 PM »
So I can just go DIAF

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2012, 10:32:40 PM »
So I can just go DIAF

Die? Nah.  In a fire?  Much less (Can I call you Joan of Arc, my dear?).

Just relax, especially when it comes to your sex life (and those of other consenting adults).   
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2012, 10:34:20 PM »
So I can just go DIAF

Let me give you a good piece of advice:  You can maintain whatever belief on how you got infected, just don't preach it on here or will you will be faced with a fair amount of ridicule.  We pride ourselves on stemming the flow of misinformation here.  As long as you believe you were infected via oral a large majority of us are going to disagree with you.  It doesn't mean I don't like you, I just think you're misinformed.

Offline Lad_Liam

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2012, 11:11:21 PM »
This thread gave me a laugh so I wanted to contribute and say if anyone is serious about this data warehousing need, there is a ready to go option that can graph your activity and remind you who really found the sweet spot last time

Lol the spreadheet pic is classic. Love the colour coding. However, the lazy fag's tip is should you wish to keep such accurate records, do web Search for iTrick - the app that means you don't need to make you own spreadsheet!

It's still supported on PC, has been around for ages. U Can still get Mac versions for older OS. Is Useful for recording your activity for checkup purposes, but has a handy rating scale, so you can sort your buddies by "who does what best", depending on your mood at the time. :-) it's open source and free, so I'm not trying to make anyone a buck here. .



a new dark passenger joins the ride

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2012, 12:15:11 AM »
It's pretty simple.



I used to keep the same kind of spreadsheet --- weird thing is, I knew I had become infected when I went to open the document and it said "FILE CORRUPT"     go figure....

I'm thinking I got teh AIDS from Microsoft Excel....

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dayuuummm it!
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2012, 12:19:31 AM »
I used to keep the same kind of spreadsheet --- weird thing is, I knew I had become infected when I went to open the document and it said "FILE CORRUPT"     go figure....

I'm thinking I got teh AIDS from Microsoft Excel....

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dayuuummm it!

Or maybe all these years you've thought you had the pooper flu and it was nothing more than a computer virus. 
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2012, 12:35:50 AM »
Let me give you a good piece of advice:  You can maintain whatever belief on how you got infected, just don't preach it on here or will you will be faced with a fair amount of ridicule.  We pride ourselves on stemming the flow of misinformation here.  As long as you believe you were infected via oral a large majority of us are going to disagree with you.  It doesn't mean I don't like you, I just think you're misinformed.

This website is science based. Its what keeps us from being a repository for denialists and holistic well-wishers who would have us forego meds in favor of a hot rock massage.

Forgive me, but I am a purist. I have a hard time believing that you can disbelieve a portion of the established science and still, using the Socratic method,  buy into the science behind our labs and treatment.

I have posted and posted again my scientific foundations that show receptive fellatio is not a route (except perhaps in outliers) for HIV infection, even with a high viral load.

Does this science dispute much of the patient report from the pre-HAART days? Yes, yes it does. For the same reasons patient report on a stigma-heavy subject like HIV disrupts what is already the unreliable soft science of patient report.

I eagerly await the long term serodiscordant study that proves what the Romero and Page-Shafr studies tried to prove - under which circumstances does one become infected orally with HIV. With a ten, five, and three year round of studies behind us, there has yet to be a single documented case.

I absolutely concur that outliers such as people suffering from meth mouth or similarly extreme conditions might encounter transmission via this route. But I have yet to see this manifest on these boards.

Sorry dudes. I'm invoking Long Term Status here. I've been in HIV education since 1994. Been on this site, giving risk assessments and helping write the lessons since 2002. I'm pretty much on top of the science here.

This is why I try to stay out of Just Infected. I figure these people need time to process, and jumping on them for transmission vector (which usually becomes a non issue after the first year anyhow) just serves to alienate, not help.

But here? In Living WIth? This is my territory. This is where we come for the real deal. No sugar coating, no learning curve. And when I see bad science passed around, it contaminates the whole field.

Post all you want about that shit almost anywhere else. But not here, where lives hang in the balance - and the scales measuring that balance are peer reviewed science.

I can and will (reluctantly) back of from the science stuff in Just Infected, and even in Someone I Know. But let's keep this a sacred science place, can we?

We spent too much goddamned money buying fucking flavored condoms in the 90s that did NOTHING to stem the tide of the pandemic. If giving oral was a risk. where the hell are all the virgin teenaged girls?

This shit is beyond ridiculous.

Am I calling anyone a liar? No. I'd have to know them first.I will say that a spread sheet in an open relationship is as close to trying to corral chaos theory as any ridiculous thing I have ever heard on these forums.

HIV meds interact with the virus in specific ways - targeting vulnerable places outside the viral particles, interfering with the replication, and then targeting the ability to transform the infected cell into an HIV machine.

How can you subscribe to that science if the science of cell infiltration is a lie? How can you believe C when A or B is untrue?

I jsut can't wrap my head around it.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2012, 01:17:52 AM »
Since we're off the main topic---Just by reading the Lessons here at this site, one can see why there is much confusion over this issue.  From the AIDSMEDS Lessons:  "...millions of people all over the world are believed to engage in unprotected oral sex and there have only been a handful of documented cases of HIV transmission. In turn, fellatio, and other types of oral sex (see below), remains a theoretical risk for HIV infection." 

A "handful of documented transmissions" means this has been documented, no?  AIDSMEDS is saying transmission via oral has been documented?  Because most people don't just have oral sex (or tell the truth), it is difficult to determine risk.

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/Transmission_9927.shtml

From The Body:

"...Even though the risk of transmitting HIV through oral sex is much lower than that of anal or vaginal sex, numerous studies have demonstrated that oral sex can result in the transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). The risk of HIV transmission from an infected partner through oral sex is much less than the risk of HIV transmission from anal or vaginal sex. Measuring the exact risk of HIV transmission as a result of oral sex is very difficult. Additionally, because most sexually active individuals practice oral sex in addition to other forms of sex, such as vaginal and/or anal sex, when transmission occurs, it is difficult to determine whether or not it occurred as a result of oral sex or other more risky sexual activities. Finally, several co-factors may increase the risk of HIV transmission through oral sex, including: oral ulcers, bleeding gums, genital sores, and the presence of other STDs. What is known is that HIV has been transmitted through fellatio, cunnilingus, and anilingus."

http://www.thebody.com/content/art17166.html

They say "numerous studies" have shown oral to be a transmission vector.  AIDSMEDS says there have been documented cases.  Many here say there has never been a single documented case.  As everyone knows, I'm not the HIV science guy.  I'm just asking what people are suppose to believe--what is fact and why the different "facts"?  Most here say to take most things said on internet forums with a grain of salt and listen to experts and your doc.  It is confusing to read this stuff that says one thing, while others say the complete opposite.  I know it is difficult to ascertain the tone of text.  I'm saying/asking this in a completely pleasant tone.  The point of what I'm saying is that it is completely understandable that people have confusion on this issue.  And, perhaps we should cut people slack for not seeing eye to eye.     




Offline zach

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2012, 03:30:12 AM »
somewhere this thread devolved into an oral debate

cub, your original question

1 should you out your friends poz status

HELLZ NO!?!  it violates his privacy, and depending on where you live you could be violating the law as well. Its none of your business. You don't know you were infected from you poz friend, and you don't know the status of the interested friend either. And, you are admittedly and understandably overwhelmed with emotion from your own diagnosis. Focus on yourself, and moving forward.

It doesn't matter how or where you were infected. You're never going to be able to answer that question, let it go.

If you have to blame, lay it on yourself and no one else. But don't beat yourself up over it, its just a virus.



gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
looking over the valley, for the beauty i see
out across the hills, forevermore

Offline MarkB

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2012, 06:39:56 AM »
Spreadsheets?  :o  You could have put all of mine on a post-it ...

 ;D

Since the Big Piece of News, however, I'm a born-again virgin.

 :( 

Offline denb45

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2012, 09:40:13 AM »
Bearcub....we don't care how you got to the party, and how you think you became infected, fact is you are infected, and that isn't gonna change were just glad your here with us ......

also, I'll echo what all of us have been saying, mind your own dam business about your friends poz status, trust me, that's not a very good place to be  ;)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Rhaegar

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2012, 09:59:02 AM »
I used to keep the same kind of spreadsheet --- weird thing is, I knew I had become infected when I went to open the document and it said "FILE CORRUPT"     go figure....

I'm thinking I got teh AIDS from Microsoft Excel....

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dayuuummm it!

I almost choked on my drink!  LOL!
05/19/2011: Diagnosed.  CD4 159   VL 284,000.
04/29/2013:  CD4 789,   VL <20

Offline MarkB

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2012, 10:38:36 AM »
I'm thinking I got teh AIDS from Microsoft Excel....

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dayuuummm it!

So that's it: I always wondered what it meant when you get that message — "You have committed a fatal error ...". If only I'd studied Computer Science instead of history.

 :(

Offline drewm

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2012, 11:12:37 AM »
So much knowledge to consume on here. I appreciate the scientific standpoints, especially when I have a concerning question. Sometimes I even enjoy the snarky tit for tat back and forth and will admit to enjoying the occasional bitch fights.

Back to the original thought, I would not disclose someone else's status because I damn sure don't want someone else disclosing mine.
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

ATRIPLA - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline Bearcub201

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2012, 03:02:37 PM »
I see the point here. What gets me is not a single person has asked me why I believe such an improbable vector. But that's fine. Anyone who has already made up their mind has a closed mind. My doctor, partner and the nice lady at the health department all believe and that's enough for me. I didn't plan on outing anybody nor would I. I've never outed anybody for being gay and I don't plan on outing any bodies HIV status.
By the way. Thanks for being so nice and welcoming, it's really refreshing.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2012, 03:46:26 PM »
I see the point here. What gets me is not a single person has asked me why I believe such an improbable vector. But that's fine. Anyone who has already made up their mind has a closed mind. My doctor, partner and the nice lady at the health department all believe and that's enough for me. I didn't plan on outing anybody nor would I. I've never outed anybody for being gay and I don't plan on outing any bodies HIV status.
By the way. Thanks for being so nice and welcoming, it's really refreshing.

Bearcub, just wanted to say that no one here is attacking or berating you . However, please bear in mind that the information offered in this forum is predicated on overwhelming scientific evidence. Veteran members will not say anything that flies in the face of scientific data as well as their experience in this field.

That said, if someone doesn't believe what you believe, I say: "So what ?" Just because members disagree with you, or may have differing opinions doesn't mean that we don't care or don't understand the question you posed in this thread.

Best
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Online leatherman

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2012, 04:37:23 PM »
My doctor, ...... the nice lady at the health department all believe and that's enough for me
another reason why many have a differing opinion from you about this issue is that as time goes by you'll find out that doctors and the nice people in the health dpt (along with case managers and other HIV-related health care people) don't always know everything they should know; that they judge things through their own experiences, prejudices, and stigmas and don't always tell us exactly the whole truth; and that quite often health care people will say much of anything so you don't have "nasty" sex ever again (be it anal, oral, gay, etc.)

As this is our lives and health we're dealing with, I've often been surprised to find out how little some officials know about a disease they're treating but do not have themselves. That's why I think it's especially important for HIV positive people to get and stay well informed as we work with our doctors. ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2012, 04:45:12 PM »
By the way. Thanks for being so nice and welcoming, it's really refreshing.

You'll be alright, kiddo.


I've often been surprised to find out how little some officials know about a disease they're treating but do not have themselves.

Berry Troo Dis.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline surf18

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2012, 07:56:44 PM »
truly great advice letatherman. sometimes i share with my dr stuff I've learned on here that he never even heard of. kind of shocking, id like my specialist to be on this site like we are and learning every day too. now my primary dr, he doesn't have a clue about this disease. he's got a big plate and i think i might be his only hiv patient that is living. the other one died he told me. nice . ha

Offline mecch

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2012, 09:35:57 PM »
I've never outed anybody for being gay and I don't plan on outing any bodies HIV status.
By the way. Thanks for being so nice and welcoming, it's really refreshing.

I think you should stick around the forums. Your first post in this thread was wavering - you were considering outing Typhoid Mary.  Now you say you would never do that, so I think something rubbed off from here.  ::)
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline drewm

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2012, 10:47:51 PM »
meech is right! Stick around the forums. Seriously, there is a wealth of valuable information here from people who have a lot of years fighting this bug. You can choose to accept or dismiss the opinions...you know what they say about opinions.

Navigating these shark infested waters can be daunting but these Queens really don't bite all that hard...thank goodness LOL!
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

ATRIPLA - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2012, 12:25:15 AM »
You can say what you want about opinions. Say what you want about scientifically sound data. Data, by the way acquired past the period of time in which patient report was the only vector for transmission research.

I would never ask anyone to go by opinion. How condescending to place the long term survivors in that category.

Especially the ones currently giving advice in the AM I INFECTED threads.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Dr.Strangelove

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2012, 05:55:01 AM »
I used to keep a spreadsheet, too. Just for myself to keep track. I stopped after guy #100, though.
I wish I had kept logging.

Offline zach

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Re: Moral dilemma
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2012, 05:43:57 PM »
cub, i want to apologize for my part if i have said anything that offended you. i know without this board i would have been pretty fkn lonely the last couple years. i would never want to push anyone away from this forum.

you are positive, and you are here, and thats enough for me. welcome.
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
looking over the valley, for the beauty i see
out across the hills, forevermore

 


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