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Author Topic: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)  (Read 10431 times)

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Offline DanielMark

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Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« on: September 22, 2006, 05:02:37 AM »
Do some gay men want to contract HIV? Researchers grapple with bug chasing

VANCOUVER (CP) - Lloyd Norquay is HIV positive and he's mystified as to why anyone else would want to be.

Norquay, who manages a gay bathhouse in Vancouver, says he's been approached by men who don't have the virus that causes AIDS but who tell him they want to be infected by him.

"I usually try to find out why, if they're interested in talking at all, and then ask them questions as to why they're wanting to do this," Norquay said.

"Nobody has a real answer."

In the gay community, they're called bug chasers. If he were willing, Norquay would be referred to as a gift giver.

Whether they actually exist or whether they're simply part of the fantasy life that's rife on the Internet is a matter of debate among researchers and even Norquay isn't quite sure.

He said whenever he's been approached by bug chasers online, they never show up for a meeting in the real world.

But medical officials and AIDS organizations say even the notion that AIDS may be a fetish among some gay men suggests that 25 years worth of work to build education and tolerance about the disease hasn't been enough.

Phillip Banks, director of HIV prevention for AIDS Vancouver, said with AIDS infection rates rising once more, some young gay men see becoming infected with AIDS as just a matter of time.

"That sense of inevitablity for some was so stressful and such a burden that many people found relief with an HIV infection," he said.

He said a gay young man today has a 50 per cent chance of being HIV positive by the time he reaches his late 40s.

"If there are people who are so impacted psychologically, emotionally by the existence of HIV in their communities that they feel they would be better off to become (infected) and just have it done with, then that's a significant issue that needs to be addressed."

Michael Graydon, a researcher at Carleton University in Ottawa, studied the bug chasers and gift givers via online newsgroups for his master's thesis which he presented to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta in 2004.

"Sometimes it was described as the gift of death," Graydon said in a recent interview. "Other times, it was described as the gift of the positive brotherhood."

He said one gay man told him he wanted to contract the virus sooner rather than later so "he could feel more like a gay man, which to me, kind of summed up everything.

"These are guys that are the products of a virulently homophobic culture, who've been viciously stigmatized because of HIV for 25 years. They believe being gay means death. Being gay means getting AIDS. Being gay means dying early. This is what's supposed to happen.

"They would even say they want to get it over with. Gift givers would offer to end the waiting."

Stories about the phenomenon started surfacing in the mid-1990s, shortly after the development of the AIDS cocktail drug treatment was announced, Graydon said.

It first came to the mainstream community's attention with the 2003 film The Gift by Louise Hogarth, an Academy Award winning director.

At the time of the film's release, Hogarth said she wanted HIV/AIDS back in the headlines. By pegging her film to something bound to be controversial, she helped renew dialogue about the crisis.

"AIDS was viewed as a short-term health crisis in the beginning and the early strategies worked," she said in the film's press kit.

"Everyone was terrified of getting it. The prevention efforts were successful and the infection rate was reduced significantly, but then people stopped talking about AIDS. They viewed it as a treatable, manageable disease. The pharmaceutical ads and the safe sex campaigns inadvertently glamourized and eroticized HIV/AIDS."

Banks called the notion of HIV as fetish "fascinating yet scandalous," but he noted if it exists, bug chasing is something practised by a very small minority who are not representative of the homosexual community.

"The majority of gay men in this country are consistent in their efforts to maintain sexual safety for themselves and for their sexual partners," Banks said.

"My fear with this is that people will look at rising HIV infection rates among gay men and say: 'They're bringing it on themselves."'

However, other researchers aren't convinced anyone would actively try to contract the AIDS virus.

Dr. Michael Rekart of the B.C. Centre for Disease Control had not heard of bug chasing and was alarmed by the notion.

"It would be an attempt at suicide," Rekart said, saying a death from AIDS is a horrible one.

"And it's not curable. I can't imagine why someone would do that."

Seth Kalichman, a psychology professor at the University of Connecticut who specializes in AIDS behavioral research, is also skeptical.

"I'm not aware of any shred of actual evidence," he said.

"There are mentally ill people all around the world. They want to kill presidents and want to give and get AIDS. I'm not even aware of a truly documented case."

Even Graydon isn't totally convinced.

"Are there men out there for all kinds of reasons deciding they want to be HIV positive? Possibly. Probably," he said.

"Are they actually acting on that? Maybe. I would think this is quite a small minority of people."

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Offline newt

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2006, 05:31:04 AM »
Okay, the usual unscientific, my-brain's-permanently-in-neutral mumbo-jumbo about gay men being intrinsically psycho.

There may be a valid topic for discussion here, but this article is not the right discussion. The bottom of the article puts a sober and correct view on the matter ("I'm not aware of any shred of actual evidence"), but who's gonna remember that bit?

- matt

Now playing: Arctic Monkeys, Mardy Bum
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2006, 05:52:03 AM »
Well perhaps the article is not to your liking Newt, but the fact that I've been propositioned to infect others (as have other Poz Gay men I know) is all the evidence I need to make this a valid topic for discussion.

Maybe I'm the only one here who has had this experience (tho I can hardly believe that).

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
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DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline newt

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2006, 06:08:17 AM »
It's a valid topic, this article's just the usual crap salacious take (blame the fags), dressed up with a serious reporting tone n some unjustified science-type soundbites eg: He said a gay young man today has a 50 per cent chance of being HIV positive by the time he reaches his late 40s. Show me the evidence, show me the model & I will take it apart for you (in, say, 5 minutes).

25 yrs on, same old newspapers, can't have a sensible and subtle discussion eg about men not liking condoms, perceptions of risk, inclusion, adventure, pleasure etc.  Or maybe we can here.

Soz Daniel, my reaction is not personal to you, it's just I'm fed up of the same old rehash of the original Rolling Stone "investigative journalism" about gay men & sex without condoms etc etc (like, straight people don't do this, right?), and certain gay community "leaders"/commentators getting so over-dramatic about it all, just makes me angry I guess. Maybe it's a US thing.  Transmission rates among gay men in the UK have been broadly-peaking stable for, oh, 10 yrs, condoms or no condoms.

I was approached once (once) by on guy etc, n I challenged him on whether he really meant it, he said no, he just wanted sex without condoms.  Fair dos.  We had a talk about how to go about getting this as safely as possible, but bottom line was he did not really want to be HIV-positive.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2006, 06:40:18 AM »
No offence taken, Newt. I suppose I am just baffled by the whole thing. Who in their right head would deliberately get infected?

I think I'll get a tattoo on my forehead now: HIV is NOT a status symbol!

*ugh*

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
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Offline david25luvit

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2006, 06:44:11 AM »
Actually this subject has been discussed many times here on the forum....and I dare say most of us
are horrified that anyone would willing infect themselves with HIV.  I'm not sure what there is to
discuss but yes, Daniel, there are some really crazy people in the world and some of them are GAY.

In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline aztecan

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2006, 07:58:01 AM »
Well, to start, the news story wasn't bad. News stories, in general, are a "once over lightly" type of reading, usually geared to an 8th-grade reading level.

Trust me, I had to dumb down a lot of scientific information to make it palatable for the masses.

That aside, I, like Daniel, have been approached by someone who wanted me to infect him. When I refused him, he simply said he would find someone else.

I'm not sure which was more unnerving: That this young man thought I would actually try to give him HIV or the inference that he really didn't care about having sex with me, he wanted to have sex with my HIV.

It has only happened to me once and that was about a decade ago. Was this guy just a nut case or was he part of a trend? I'll never know.


HUGS,

Mark
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 07:59:35 AM by aztecan »
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline alisenjafi

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2006, 08:39:33 AM »
With the media and popular cultural telling us that having msm -gay sex is the cause of the spread of HIV maybe these guys just want to get over what they deem the inevitable.  Perhaps it gives them the feeling of some control over their lives?
Too bad the forces that be aren't focusing on the fact that all people are capable of being infected!
Johnny
"You shut your mouth
how can you say
I go about things the wrong way
I am human and I need to be loved
just like everybody else does"
The Smiths

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2006, 08:47:13 AM »
The continuing perpetration of an urban myth...I agree with Matt...provide me with the empirical data...not isolated anecdotes.

Offline Alain

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2006, 09:02:57 AM »
.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 09:32:01 PM by cowandalehouse »

Offline Iggy

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2006, 09:48:00 AM »
.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 08:59:52 PM by Iggy »

Offline David_CA

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2006, 10:10:24 AM »
You know, I don't doubt that some guys want to get infected... for whatever reason.  I'm sure that they are certainly a minority.  I don't mean to imply that these people are crazy, but there are people who cut off toes, fingers, and other body parts.  Some burn themselves with cigarettes.  Who knows why people do what they do. 

I've heard the discussion of two partners - one HIV- and one HIV+ - and how much of a 'barrier to intimacy' the HIV is.  Who's to say that the neg. partner wouldn't find dealing with his/her own HIV+ status easier than dealing with the stress & issues of the HIV +/- situation?

I'm certainly not saying that I'd chose to become HIV+; I'd really, really, like us (all of us) to become neggies again.  I'm sure most all of us feel the same way. 

While I know that this is surely a very small percentage of the HIV- population, it seems to get blown out of proportion.  Why is the media's attention focused on this instead of real people living with HIV, funding, prevention, etc?  Those topics aren't interesting to the general population.  Ask most HIV- folks, even the ones who are close to us, what they know about HIV... it's not much.  How much do I know about breast cancer, testicular cancer, or most any other regular chronic/ terminal illnesses and diseases?  Not a whole lot 'cause these don't effect me or those really close to me at this time.  The media obviously chooses stories that will appeal to the general public.  It's as simple as that.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
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10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2006, 10:17:49 AM »
Had a conversation with a couple of guys (bath house) saying that everybody they are meeting with HIV seams to have a purpose in life and really making the most of everything they do.
Wow.  That's an interesting comment.  I can't say, I've ever run across anyone (pre diagnosis), who had anything positive to say about HIV/AIDS.  Certainly not that the disease gives one a purpose in life and lets individuals make the most out of life.  Stange discussion.  But then again, people say lots of things (both over the internet and in real life).  Much of which, doesn't make sense.  Some people just like to run off at the mouth.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some individuals out there who were wishing they were HIV positive.  But there are lots of crazy people in the world.  You don't alter HIV prevention efforts for the millions, over the actions of a handful of folks.  I think I remember a couple of years ago a guy (gay) put out an ad over the internet to be killed and eaten.  He found a taker.  I suppose someone could do a story about "Do some gay men want to be killed and eaten?"

These types of stories can be misleading (include downlow discussion in that column as well).  But at least they do present both sides of the issue and have some credible quotes about the lack of evidence that bug chasing actually exists.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2006, 10:18:36 AM »
Well said Master Iggles....but as we all know, a sex-crazed homo begging for infection makes better copy than underfunding health care.

No negative sexual partner I have revealed to ever asked me to infect them...so I guess my experiences proves this theory false. See, it is all anecdotal.

Offline Dennis

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2006, 11:41:42 AM »
The continuing perpetration of an urban myth...I agree with Matt...provide me with the empirical data...not isolated anecdotes.

What urban myth are you referring to and what specific data are you requesting. 

I subscribe to a video chat room and someone is always creating a new room regarding this exact topic.  As a matter of fact, I just looked and there is a room called "btms for poz seed".  Lets not mention the room labeled "bareback" or the "PNP" room which currenty has 91 people in it.  Go on manhunt.com and take a look at the number of profiles or screen names that mention bareback. 

Know, I know all of these are online based communities and a lot of these people are probably just living out a fantasy virtually.  The question is how many of these people turn their virtual fantasies into realities. 

"Phillip Banks, director of HIV prevention for AIDS Vancouver, said with AIDS infection rates rising once more, some young gay men see becoming infected with AIDS as just a matter of time."  This statement make absolute sense to me.  Of course, this may sound rediculous to us.  But what do we know?  Our waiting game is over.


Offline Ithaca_Nights

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2006, 12:17:29 PM »
Quote
I subscribe to a video chat room and someone is always creating a new room regarding this exact topic.  As a matter of fact, I just looked and there is a room called "btms for poz seed".  Lets not mention the room labeled "bareback" or the "PNP" room which currently has 91 people in it.  Go on manhunt.com and take a look at the number of profiles or screen names that mention bareback. 

These rooms have been on gay.com, yahoo, MSN and the like for a long time.  I get hit on all the time about pozzing someone and yes I have had people approach me for real.  People do bareback all the time, it is common practise in many places. Yes indeed I have met guys that did go looking for there gift and found it. This also happens at the baths and gay campgrounds.  When asked, some assume everyone is already poz and some believe everyone is telling the truth about being neg and are only intersted in barebacking. 

One of the problems is gay men are tired of having condoms shoved at them and this does not seem to be the case with our heterosexual counterparts.  In the USA we are taught by churches and our government etc. and certain other entities that gay = AIDS/HIV.  So to answer some questions this does exist and is wide spread.

Just my two cents!

Offline Cliff

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2006, 12:28:00 PM »
I've seen plenty of PNP, Barebacking, "bttms for poz seed"-type personal ads, discussions and internet sites.  I don't consider those equivalent to bug chasing.  I consider them to be guys who want to have sex without a condom.  I think there is a slight, yet important difference, between someone actively seeking HIV, (i.e., engaing in sex with the sole desire to acquire HIV), and someone who chooses to have sex without a condom.

Offline newt

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2006, 01:21:45 PM »
The correct headline for article is Researchers wrestle with gay men's normative values and lose

It's easy, easy to shine the microscope on gay men, and make them look bad, & at the same time avoid addressing complex and important questions about gaymen's sexual desire/identity/practice/pleasure/risk/safety or obscure the wider picture. 

A (UK) headline: Many gay men have sex without condoms in spite of risk of HIV would be, strictly speaking true...

...but the real picture on (UK) gay men and condom use is only clear in the whole population context: Gay men nearly twice as likely to use condoms with a new sexual partner than heterosexuals

You can, if you do some real science, go further. While gay men as a group are the most consistent users of condoms with partners of unknown HIV status, and use them more than straight people, the best indicator of condom use with a partner of unknown HIV status is closeness to the epidemic, ie whether you know someone who's HIV-positive, rather than being gay. This accounts nicely for why young gay men in the UK (under 24) are not good at condoms with a quick shag, cos they are the least likely group of gay men to know someone who's HIV-positive, and likewise why most straight people in the UK just don't even think it is part of their world, unless perhaps they's African (this is all summarising Weatherburn et al, dunno if it's all in print yet).

- matt

Now playing: Kanye, Drive Slow
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Dennis

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2006, 02:53:58 PM »
I've seen plenty of PNP, Barebacking, "bttms for poz seed"-type personal ads, discussions and internet sites.  I don't consider those equivalent to bug chasing.  I consider them to be guys who want to have sex without a condom.  I think there is a slight, yet important difference, between someone actively seeking HIV, (i.e., engaing in sex with the sole desire to acquire HIV), and someone who chooses to have sex without a condom.

I see your point Cliff.  But regardless if someone is actively seeking HIV or not, wouldn't they still be considered "bug chasers"?.  Afterall, by know, everyone knows the possible consequences of not having protective sex; possibly subconsciously.  It takes a really mentally unstable individual to ADMIT they are a bug chaser.  It's more acceptable in the gay community to admit you only have sex bareback than it is to openly admit you want to become HIV+.

Offline Ithaca_Nights

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2006, 04:09:01 PM »
Quote
It takes a really mentally unstable individual to ADMIT they are a bug chaser.  It's more acceptable in the gay community to admit you only have sex bareback than it is to openly admit you want to become HIV+.

I agree whole heartedly!

Offline Iggy

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2006, 08:06:57 PM »
 .
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 08:59:26 PM by Iggy »

Offline alisenjafi

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2006, 09:14:03 PM »
Another interesting angle on this question- can anyone diagnosed after say 1989 be considered  a bug chaser?
One of the disturbing factors of this whole topic is that in the end with a broad sweep of of the brush, someone will say that we who got infected after the time where it came out unsafe sex was the main cause with msm, then we alone are to blame and all ramifications that go with it!

johnny
"You shut your mouth
how can you say
I go about things the wrong way
I am human and I need to be loved
just like everybody else does"
The Smiths

Offline Eldon

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2006, 11:13:07 PM »
They always keep jumping on the bandwagon that it is the Gay men who are having unprotected sex. What about the heterosexual community? They have sex just as much as Gay men do and how many of them use a condom during sex?

This pandemic should be focused as a whole rather than target a specific group.


The fact still remains, that the education level for protected sex and prevention; the efforts should be boosted to get the word out to our communities.


Have the BEST Day!

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2006, 01:19:44 PM »
I would like to share my opinion about this article and the subject, and see what shakes out.

First of all, this is not news and has been taking place for years now, and for some of these professionals to say "I had no idea that this might be taking place" tells me they are very poor professionals, and shouldn't have been consulted about this article at all.  To also lump these Gay people into Presidential Asassins is actually more shocking to me than what the Gay people are accused of doing.  What a poor commentary on "Professional" Mental Health Workers.......  Very sad

Now for the subject at hand. 

First I must ask some questions.  Do people NOT over drink alcohol because they know that alcohol will destroy their livers and ultimately kill them?
Do people who get drunk NOT drive because they know they could kill someone, or themselves?
Do people NOT jump out of airplanes in skydiving because they know they might get killed doing so?

Cheating death is a possibly quantifiable part of this very dangerous game, I don't know.

Personally, I would go a little deeper, which is something that true professionals would also attempt to do.  Ever since HIV/AIDS struck North America, it has been concentrated in the Gay Community.  A Community which is sidelined by the religious and conservative segments of our societies, and when this occurs, the society at large becomes uncomfortable about the subject, and doesn't say much at all about the entrenched discrimination which Gay people are subjected to on a daily basis.  Discomfort is the least of issues to a budding Gay adolescent who is feeling his/her oats and hormones. 

One thing I must bring to the table here is the huge number of Gay people who never make it through puberty due to suicide, which is a tangable and certain permanent solution to a temporary problem, AND many times prompted by the very family that has brought this person to the world and now shuns them for having a genetic disposition they family cannot accept.  Most Gays are shunned at home, school, at play, with peers, and ultimately with the society at large.  It is only a proper and logical deduction then that those who survive into adulthood, do so with either lifelong emotional scars, or else they come though it with victory and a very grounded sense of who they are.  For those that don't, many times a "Death Wish" sticks with them for a very long time and even life.

All that being said, immagine if you would, Gay men who have survived into adulthood, and then they are faced with the "social stigma" that states HIV/AIDS is a "Gay Disease", they are responsible for all of societies ills, and add to that, the inevitiblity of contracting such a disease when almost 50% of the other dating possibilities are already infected with the viral protein that causes AIDS.  Where would that leave you?  Are you a strong and well identified individual?  Do you have a social life, and is it in any way influenced by what others might think or say?   Do the pressures of your social structure advocate individuallity, or does your social structure "ENCOURAGE" conformity??

I know, so many questions, so little time. 

I for one, cannot and will not advocate for anyone who tries to get infected with the viral protein called HIV, but far be it from me to pass judgement on singular individuals who are struggling with creating an identity based on secrecy, based on social judgements, based on being classified as a social outcast, a pervert or any of the really nice things that "Heterosexual" society places on our backs as well adjusted, tax paying "Homosexuals".  What I find really perverse is judging someone because of the person they love, rather than the quality of their character.

If I haven't squelched all discussion on this subject, I would love to hear your viewpoints, and please remember, this is a viral protein that will virtually excommunicate you from the life you now know and love, and if you don't believe me, please ask any woman who is HIV infected if her life has changed since diagnosis.

In Deep Respect.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline allopathicholistic

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2006, 01:29:43 PM »
yes some gay men want to contract hiv and/or drama. there are all types of people in this world

Offline manchesteruk

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2006, 02:12:45 PM »
This is such a strange subject I don't think gay men purposely go out to contract HIV but I do thing there are plenty who find the risk of doing so as some sort of a turn on.  The only thing I find strange is ther majority of my hetereosexual friends have had unprotected sex during one night stands etc because the female is on the pill are all these people not bug chasers as well?  Surely unprotected sex is just as common in the heterosexual community as in the gay community? It certainly is in my experience anyway.
Diagnosed 11/05

"Life is too important to be taken seriously" Oscar Wilde

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2006, 04:31:51 PM »
Like Daniel, I too have been approached on a number of occasions by bug chasers seeking to be infected. It pisses me off in a big way.

The next one who asks me might just get his wish granted.

MtD
(Who is not joking)

Offline RevMC

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2006, 08:05:56 PM »
Just my 2 cents here.

I had one guy on line wanting to pay me $200 to infect him.  He contacted me and I told him NO.  No amount of money was worth doing this to someone else.  I asked him WHY.  His response . . . "So that I can get on disability and not have to work any longer".  I was shocked at that comment.

He's not the first and only person to make this comment to me.  I've had many who have asked me to infect them, both on-line and in person so that they could get disability and not work.

I'm on disability, have been since I was diagnosed 18 1/2 years ago.  I was in my mid 20's when I found out so needless to say I'm not making much on disabiliity.  After all these years it's only $580 a month.  Who can live on that.  I work part time and make up to the limit that I'm allowed.  My reason for not working full-time (other than taking care of my other half), I can't afford to lose my medical coverage.

They are out there and from what I can tell, they are just plain lazy.  I did go with one guy one time who wanted to bb with me.  I told him I'd pull out, he said no problem.  At about the point of no return he yelled out "YEAH INFECT ME".  Needless to say nothing happened, lost the moment.  He was lazy in more ways than one.

Again, just my 2 cents.  Give me another poz guy and we'll both have one hell of a good time!!!!!
Part of my story: "Sale Of A Lifetime" POZ December 2003
http://www.poz.com/articles/172_752.shtml

Started on Truvada and Viramune on 2/15/07

Jan 8, 2007   t-cells 215  Viral Load 10,000  24%
March 26'th  T-cells 306   Viral Load  UNDETECTABLE
June 2007 t-cells 375 Viral Load UNDETECTABLE
August 2007 t-cells 290 Viral Load UNDETECTABLE



Love and Light and Reiki sent your way,
Rev. Michae

Offline NightmareHall

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2006, 09:02:57 AM »
*
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 10:52:12 AM by NightmareHall »

Offline Broederboy

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2006, 10:14:21 AM »
How can anyone responsibly write or consult on an article like this and not have better answers?  I don't know, I think, I feel...geez, its like getting an answer on "staying the course" another educated idiot has finally abandoned.

From my experience, I would dare say it is a combination of events.  I know that there are days I wish I could die.  I pull my head out of the toilet, and get on with life.  Depression, anxiety, lack of a sense of belonging, there are numerous issues that could apply.  When you look at the "Gay" community, you have a bunch of individuals who rarely act like a community. 

As evidence, I present the Gay bars and Gay Dance Clubs.  'Only the beautiful, svelte and "Hot" need apply, the rest of you trolls, dwarfs and mongrels stay back against the wall with your hands in sight."  As the vocal majority of the community is focused on unrealistic, skewed views of reality, once you are no longer "pretty", you lose your value.  Case in point...look at a gay dating site.  How many are looking for someone 18 to 30, or 18 to 25.  (Many of these are gentlemen who no longer fit anywhere near that classification.)

Community implies caring for more than ones self.  It would imply compassion, caring, altruism.  We don't see that in the more vocal "gym bunny and bar boy" aspects of gaydom.  If you are fortunate enough to be near a larger city bath, look at the "isms" that take place there.  The only place I have found less bias towards those who are "age/physically buff" challenged is in the smaller town baths.  Jacksonville, Detroit, Cleveland to name a few.  I noticed this even before I was diagnosed.

There is little sense of real belonging.  So, the only place to belong, is really just in the POZ community.  We know that we have to take care of each other. 
Poz since 1997
Damn things won't win the battle or the war!

Offline NightmareHall

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2006, 11:23:04 AM »
*
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 10:51:45 AM by NightmareHall »

Offline poet

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2006, 12:00:29 PM »
I did a quick read of the posts in this thread.  As a former New Yorker, I have to say that all too much of what makes no sense always seemed to be happening there, from sex parties/orgies, to continuous overuse of drugs with doctors' ok, to compulsive sex and anything else that is the act of the hour, regardless of what it might do to one's health.  And given that I am apparently the only hiv positive male to have passed through our ASG on the Cape to date who is not using drugs, I am not surprised by the article.  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline RevMC

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2006, 02:58:06 PM »
It's the same thing here in the Tampa, FL area.  It's so strange, most who say they are not size queens, ARE.  They see certain pics, then they are interested, some are still interested  when they know I'm poz.  Then the age thing comes in to play, and it's like, sorry your too old, or "I don't do guys with greying hair".

My comment is they won't see my face anyway when theirs is burried in a pillow.  Even the other poz guys here have formed clicks.  I was ignored by some of those clicks UNTIL I opened up my own gay pride/leather store.  Then they were all interested.  Once I closed the store down, I was not part of them any longer.  Some say they are still interested in getting together but it's one excuse after another.

Some gay guys are so hung up on looks that they miss out on some wonderful people.  It's their loss.  Either I fit in, or I don't, I don't care any longer.  Life is too short.

Part of my story: "Sale Of A Lifetime" POZ December 2003
http://www.poz.com/articles/172_752.shtml

Started on Truvada and Viramune on 2/15/07

Jan 8, 2007   t-cells 215  Viral Load 10,000  24%
March 26'th  T-cells 306   Viral Load  UNDETECTABLE
June 2007 t-cells 375 Viral Load UNDETECTABLE
August 2007 t-cells 290 Viral Load UNDETECTABLE



Love and Light and Reiki sent your way,
Rev. Michae

Offline Joe K

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2006, 03:13:47 PM »
If you want to watch an interesting movie on this very subject try "The Gift."  The movie chronicles sone support groups and has very open discussions about why gay men might want to become positive.

Among the most chilling were the two following reasons given by some members.

I am going to get HIV anyway, so I might as well get it over with.

The gay community is so fixated on looks and bodies and is very unforgiving of mere mortal gay men.  Whereas the HIV community is a tight community and looks are not so important and at least I will belong somewhere.  Talk about the damage that the closet has done to the gay community.

Sadly, you will gain some insight and even empathy for the speakers because most of us have been on their paths.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2006, 03:27:40 PM »
"... but it's true there is no community."

On the whole, I couldn't agree more with this statement.

Which is why I make a point not to shun most of it.

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline poet

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2006, 07:49:48 PM »
Mike, it was the same thing for me as a bodyworker.  There is NO way that any of the twenty-something year olds would have gotten anywhere closer than a mile from me or across the street BUT for the fact that no one of their peers would know about their visit/appointment and, like you, I was able to offer something which few others, and certainly none of their peers, could offer: prostate work.  :) It was the tag line I used, 'connect with your butt,' and perhaps a butt pic (cropped so you only saw my then tanned butt) without a picture of me, the model I used (my hands, his body) and perhaps the text.  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline sdcabincrew74

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2006, 09:25:41 PM »

I am going to get HIV anyway, so I might as well get it over with.


Interesting quote there.  Unfortunately I can identify with it.  When I was about 10 or maybe 11, the city paper in Pittsburgh did a four part series on the new gay disease called AIDS.  It was published EVERY Sunday for four weeks.  I read it all word-for-word, a lot of it I did not understand, but at the end of the series, I remember thinking, I kid you not, "well since I am gay I am going to die of AIDS."

Well, here I am at 32, HIV+ and with an AIDS diagnosis.  How I got to this point is a whole other story that frankly I do not have the time or energy or emotional strength to share.  But, when laying in the hospital with PCP and MAC the doctor said, "you have AIDS" and I immediately flashed to my thought: "well since I am gay, I am going to die of AIDS."

I do not really know what the last two paragraphs prove.  But, I find it interesting.
The difference between an overnight and a layover is luck!

Offline chadnla

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2006, 11:40:56 PM »
Personally I think it's stupid to purposefully try to get infected. Yeah mistakes happen, dumb ones. I know.  But I know no one who went out with the intent of becoming infected. Nor have I been approached to infect someone.

These reasons show the lack of knowledge out there. first of all, poz guys don't get everything handed to them. Yeah there is assistance but if you don't qualify i.e. income, assets, you better never lose your health insurance or you can be screwed later on. Can you afford $1000+/month for meds?

All my friends are poz? oh that's a winning answer. nothing like hanging out and talking about your complications or side effects together. yeehaw

HIV can't be all that bad/the meds will fix everything??? yeah HIV is manageable, but so are Diabetes (you can die if you don't monitor your blood sugar levels), heart disease (need prescription or there's a likelihood of a heart attack) or some cancers (nothing like good ole chemo).

these idiotic replies from bug chasers means there needs to be more education out there..it's not a walk in the park. i know everyone here knows that, but it makes me mad when hearing people say shit like that.
"I do not believe in a fate that will fall on us no matter what we do. I do believe in a fate that will fall on us if we do nothing."

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2006, 06:02:56 AM »
Geez, it's hardly like Penis Envy. ::)

Surely this must fall somewhere between Delusional Disorder and Self-Injury Disorder in the list of Mental Health problems.
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline Angel-Ronnie

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2006, 06:45:51 AM »
Daniel

Interresting thread and although I think that this is so stupid if someone wants to get infected if they just know what a life changing experience this is and how you as a person react when dealing with this. They need help as to the aftermath of hiv/aids

Our purpose in life will be our destiny
Bide the Wiccan law ye must,
In perfect love and perfect trust
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill
An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

What ye send forth comes back to thee,
so ever mind the Law of three,
follow this with mind and heart,
Merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

Offline poet

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2006, 09:32:59 AM »
Or, according to the Wall Street Journal, 'cognitive dissonance.'  The example they sited was smoking cigarettes. 'Why for example, do people who know cigarettes are bad for their health continue to smoke? This is classic cognitive dissonance: They know one thing and feel another.' 'One way or another, the anxiety must be assuaged.  So the smoker builds a bridge- a rationalisation- from feeling to fact: If he stopped smoking, he'd gain weight, which would also be unhealthy; some risks are worth taking to have a full life; the risks of smoking have been exagerated.'  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline racingmind

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Re: Do some gay men want to contract HIV? (long article)
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2006, 01:20:33 PM »
how the hell could being HIV+ EVER be considered a status symbol?  (unless you are making a pun)......
Tested Negative: 5/06
Tested Positive: 9/06 
9/06: CD4: 442 (28%) VL: +100,000
10/06: CD4: 323 (25%) VL: 243,440
11/06: CD4: 405 (28%) VL: 124,324
12/06: CD4: 450 (29%) VL: 114,600
1/07: CD4: 440 (27%) VL: 75,286
3/07: CD4: 459 (30%) VL: 44,860
5/07: CD4: 353 (24%) VL: 50,852
7/07: CD4: 437 (29%) VL: 39,475
9/07: CD4: 237 (32%) VL: 372,774
10/07: CD4: 324 (27%) VL: 115,454 
Started Atripla: 10/07
11/07: CD4: 524 (?%) VL: Undetectable!
2/08: CD4: 653 (35%) VL: undetectable
5/08: CD4: 822 (40%) VL: undetectable
8/08: CD4: 626 (35%) VL: undetectable
12/08: CD4: 619 (36%) VL: undetectable
3/09: CD4: 802 (38%) VL: undetectable
7/09: CD4: 1027 (43%) VL: not tested
10/09: CD4: 1045 (43%) VL: undetectable

 


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