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Author Topic: The whole "oral sex" thing  (Read 8707 times)

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Offline Rockin

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The whole "oral sex" thing
« on: November 30, 2011, 07:55:25 PM »
I know most of you are probably sick to death of this topic but, being a newbie on this, I have to ask: do you think it's irresponsible of me to allow some random guy (random hook-up) to perform oral sex on me? Here in Brazil there's no "disclosure law" or anything like that.

Infecting someone would be the worst possible nightmare for me...at the same time, if some guy wants to suck me and I don't allow them (or insist on using a condom) that would be weird right? They would assume that something's not right. And here in Rio everyone knows everybody, especially in the gay community...so it would only take 1 person to assume I have HIV to spread the word.

I met this poz guy who said he was on a steady relationship with a HIV- and he told me the negative guy would perform oral sex on him with no real concern. They split after 4 years and the HIV- remained HIV-.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 08:13:04 PM »
My partner has been performing oral sex on me--even back when I'm sure my viral load was much, much higher.  The CDC will tell you there is a possible risk.  But, they also say they've documented deep french kissing infections, babies being infected from poz parents pre-chewing food, and people getting infected from deep, tissue damaging bites from a poz person.  So, I can see how many are left confused what is a real risk vs non-existed one. 

Many here and elsewhere say besides other things, saliva would kill the virus.  The CDC says they've documented cases where pre-chewed food caused infections in babies.  That food was obviously covered in that protective saliva.  And, that food was exposed to air, which most here and elsewhere would say would also kill it.  So, that's why I say I can see where so many are confused.   

Offline buginme2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 08:19:15 PM »
If you are on therapy and undetectable I'd say there is NO risk. 

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 08:29:54 PM »
Even with a detectable VL you're not going to give anyone HIV by letting them give you a gobby. Not in the real world.

In the make believe world of some nervous nellies, maybe.

As a wise woman who dwells not a million miles away from this forum once observed:

"A person who thinks he got HIV from sucking cock doesn't know his ass from a hole in his head."

MtD

Offline bocker3

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2011, 08:35:43 PM »
Even with a detectable VL you're not going to give anyone HIV by letting them give you a gobby. Not in the real world.

In the make believe world of some nervous nellies, maybe.

As a wise woman who dwells not a million miles away from this forum once observed:

"A person who thinks he got HIV from sucking cock doesn't know his ass from a hole in his head."

MtD


But what if he is sucking a cock while sitting on a toilet that someone with AIDS just sat on -- and while fingering the guy in the next stall??  I'm sure that must be high risk.........

Atripla - Started 12/05
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Offline buginme2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2011, 08:37:53 PM »
But what if he is sucking a cock while sitting on a toilet that someone with AIDS just sat on -- and while fingering the guy in the next stall??  I'm sure that must be high risk.........



"Or sucking stripper nipple and tastes like salty"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2011, 08:43:58 PM »
But what if he is sucking a cock while sitting on a toilet that someone with AIDS just sat on -- and while fingering the guy in the next stall??  I'm sure that must be high risk.........



In that case you're almost certain to contract Strain N and your mongrel will ulcerate and drop off.

MtD

Offline denb45

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 08:51:40 PM »
In that case you're almost certain to contract Strain N and your mongrel will ulcerate and drop off.

MtD

 ;D Wait a minute are we in the AM I Infected thread, I'm so confused  :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline OneTampa

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2011, 09:42:50 PM »
If the guy can do all that and juggle 6 bolling balls at the same time, he belongs in the Cirque de Soile!
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 11:33:00 PM »
What Matty said.

I could copy and paste the scientific evidence, but I think succinct is better sometimes.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Since2005

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 12:26:10 AM »
I know most of you are probably sick to death of this topic but, being a newbie on this, I have to ask: do you think it's irresponsible of me to allow some random guy (random hook-up) to perform oral sex on me? Here in Brazil there's no "disclosure law" or anything like that.

Infecting someone would be the worst possible nightmare for me...at the same time, if some guy wants to suck me and I don't allow them (or insist on using a condom) that would be weird right? They would assume that something's not right. And here in Rio everyone knows everybody, especially in the gay community...so it would only take 1 person to assume I have HIV to spread the word.

I met this poz guy who said he was on a steady relationship with a HIV- and he told me the negative guy would perform oral sex on him with no real concern. They split after 4 years and the HIV- remained HIV-.

I am sorry are you serious? Well Now that you are poz ( assuming you are..), please read the lessons part and this is your sole duty to learn about HIV now that you have it. Don’t get me wrong.. why do I have the feeling you belong to ‘Am I infected forum’.. Please educate yourself about HIV .. that’s the piece of advice I got from others and hey good advice.. Pass it along!!!

Edited to add: Hey I just read your other thread and not assuming anymore about your status. This is definitely a good place to be if you are poz. It helped me and still I learn here everyday. So, advice stay still “ Educate yourself about HIV”. Infecting others, risks, disclosures etc.- lots of your anxiety on those issues will go away. Good luck and welcome to the forums!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 02:16:00 AM by Since2005 »

Online mecch

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2011, 03:31:51 AM »
Remember the cookie scene in The Matrix.

What's really going to bake your noodle later on is.....

You are dectectable, and you won't pass HIV to someone giving you a blowjob.  

then

You are undectable, and you won't pass HIV to someone giving you a blowjob.

then

A)  I guess the sucker doesn't need to know.  B)  I guess the sucker doesn't want to know.
(you decide not disclosing is a favor to the sucker.)

C)  I'm not telling the sucker I'm poz because he might say no, anyway, and I want to get my rocks off.
D)  If I tell the sucker I'm poz, he will blab it to everyone and I'll be outed.
(you get off, but you're a liar and have taken away another's free will.  But that is sort of OK because probably A or B.

E) Im going to tell him not to suck me.  I won't get off and he will tell everyone I must be HIV+.
(this last one has a low faith in other people.)

It would be ridiculous to tell him not to suck you, but to continue on and fuck him or let him fuck you.  

Let's say you do A, B, C, or D.  So, you get your blowjob.  
But you'll never know if the guy is an asshole who wouldn't touch you with a 10-foot pole if he knew you were HIV+.    So you just have to factor that into the overall pyschic benefit of the exchange.  

Oh also, you might have a moral system that say you really should disclose and let people decide.  Or, you might not, and come up with the pretty common one I know in France, Germany, Switerland - guys dont run around sexy places disclosing. Though they can, if they want.  And they protect themselves if they want to.

On the other hand, if you're on a date, pursuing someone for more than just a fuck, you'll probably need to disclose pretty soon in the pursuit.  

None of these are easy or clear decisions, necessarily.  They can be easier if you make a summative decision but you'll have to feel this out as you get used to your sexuality and being HIV+.

As in the other thread about treatment and 2x a day, it does seem that your primary concern is privacy and fears of disclosure.   Fine moral gradations of when and where you have to disclose, risks of transmission, I suggest, might be secondary at the moment.

You really believed oral was a risk, and you really considered whether your privacy and reputation was more important to protect.  Cause you don't want anyone to know.

This will work out over time.  You will chill out.  You know someone HIV+.  He had a 4 year relationship, serodiscordant, so love is not off the table because you are HIV+.  And is he a social pariah?  You know he is HIV+, right?  Avoid him on the street?



« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 03:34:30 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2011, 06:26:11 AM »

If you are on effective therapy with no discernible VL, it is “No Risk”, just like Bugs said.

It is also my understanding that, if the guy getting sucked (inserting partner) has a sky-high viral load and he ejaculates a fat chunk of cum in the mouth of the guy sucking (receptive partner) who has appalling oral hygiene and/or a gaping and bleeding laceration in his mouth and/or profusely bleeding gums, then transmission is ‘possible’ though still far from ‘likely’.   It can be debated endlessly, as to ‘exactly’ how unlikely the risk is though.
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 06:58:48 AM »
Hey hey...glad I brought it up then. A private doctor I went to said "yes, there is a small risk...but a risk nonetheless" and told me I should use condoms for oral sex. I said "I don't know anybody who does it" and he said "No no people do it".

Most people who find out that somebody they had sex with is poz will go "Well we used condom but I sucked his dick, omg!!!!" It's amazing how doctors forget to bring this up. Everyone is always hammering about condom for anal sex but they forget about all this other stuff. This should be clarified once and for all.

Well I'm relieved. When I first found out I was poz I thought it was from oral sex...I've always used condoms for random sex but I allowed one or two guys to ejaculate in my mouth. I'd spit it out everything immediately...and, as far as I know, I didn't have any serious gum problems.

But then my ex and I had unprotected sex about 5 times. I used to think that he was clear...he even told me so...but now I'm 90% I got it from him and he's lying.   

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 07:06:20 AM »
Remember the cookie scene in The Matrix.

What's really going to bake your noodle later on is.....

You are dectectable, and you won't pass HIV to someone giving you a blowjob.  

then

You are undectable, and you won't pass HIV to someone giving you a blowjob.

then

A)  I guess the sucker doesn't need to know.  B)  I guess the sucker doesn't want to know.
(you decide not disclosing is a favor to the sucker.)

C)  I'm not telling the sucker I'm poz because he might say no, anyway, and I want to get my rocks off.
D)  If I tell the sucker I'm poz, he will blab it to everyone and I'll be outed.
(you get off, but you're a liar and have taken away another's free will.  But that is sort of OK because probably A or B.

E) Im going to tell him not to suck me.  I won't get off and he will tell everyone I must be HIV+.
(this last one has a low faith in other people.)

It would be ridiculous to tell him not to suck you, but to continue on and fuck him or let him fuck you.  

Let's say you do A, B, C, or D.  So, you get your blowjob.  
But you'll never know if the guy is an asshole who wouldn't touch you with a 10-foot pole if he knew you were HIV+.    So you just have to factor that into the overall pyschic benefit of the exchange.  

Oh also, you might have a moral system that say you really should disclose and let people decide.  Or, you might not, and come up with the pretty common one I know in France, Germany, Switerland - guys dont run around sexy places disclosing. Though they can, if they want.  And they protect themselves if they want to.

On the other hand, if you're on a date, pursuing someone for more than just a fuck, you'll probably need to disclose pretty soon in the pursuit.  

None of these are easy or clear decisions, necessarily.  They can be easier if you make a summative decision but you'll have to feel this out as you get used to your sexuality and being HIV+.

As in the other thread about treatment and 2x a day, it does seem that your primary concern is privacy and fears of disclosure.   Fine moral gradations of when and where you have to disclose, risks of transmission, I suggest, might be secondary at the moment.

You really believed oral was a risk, and you really considered whether your privacy and reputation was more important to protect.  Cause you don't want anyone to know.

This will work out over time.  You will chill out.  You know someone HIV+.  He had a 4 year relationship, serodiscordant, so love is not off the table because you are HIV+.  And is he a social pariah?  You know he is HIV+, right?  Avoid him on the street?





Privacy is a big thing for me, yes. As I said, the gay community in Rio is like a village...everyone knows everyone...or they will eventually. So it really only takes 1 person to spread the info...and no, I don't have a lot of faith in people. I met my share of stupidity and nastiness, I know better.

If I meet a guy who I'm actually interested in and I sense that things are getting serious of course I'm gonna disclose it to him, without a doubt. But I, personally, think it's silly to say it to some random hook up. If you act like this you'll probably only have sex every once in a blue moon.

It's one thing to be honest...and another thing to be a "sincericide", like my former shrink used to say. 

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2011, 07:06:51 AM »
Everyone is always hammering about condom for anal sex but they forget about all this other stuff. This should be clarified once and for all.


But it can't be clarified once and for all because:

1. People lie (sometimes even to themselves) about their sexual practices. What 'happens' in a closed bedroom and what 'people admit or say' are two different things.

2. There is always a chance, however minute, that something can go wrong in sex despite taking all precautions etc. There is no such thing as 100% bullet proof sex. Shit happens.

3. Sucking on a piece of rubber is positively vile.
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2011, 07:31:26 AM »
But it can't be clarified once and for all because:

1. People lie (sometimes even to themselves) about their sexual practices. What 'happens' in a closed bedroom and what 'people admit or say' are two different things.

2. There is always a chance, however minute, that something can go wrong in sex despite taking all precautions etc. There is no such thing as 100% bullet proof sex. Shit happens.

3. Sucking on a piece of rubber is positively vile.


1. You're right. What I meant was, whenever I see a prevention or awareness campaign oral sex is never mentioned. It's always anal sex. Even if they are not sure about it they should release info nonetheless

2. I know. It's like driving a car: there's always a risk, however small it might be (in the case of driving I believe is much bigger).

3. VILE I TELL YOU!

Online Joe K

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 08:11:56 AM »
;D Wait a minute are we in the AM I Infected thread, I'm so confused  :D

1. You're right. What I meant was, whenever I see a prevention or awareness campaign oral sex is never mentioned. It's always anal sex. Even if they are not sure about it they should release info nonetheless

So am I.  Here we are, thirty years into this pandemic and we have another tedious thread about getting poz from oral sex and it's not even posted in the I just tested forum.  Just because you feel something does not make it true and nobody is hiding any truths about oral sex and contracting HIV.

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 08:44:51 AM »
So am I.  Here we are, thirty years into this pandemic and we have another tedious thread about getting poz from oral sex and it's not even posted in the I just tested forum.  Just because you feel something does not make it true and nobody is hiding any truths about oral sex and contracting HIV.

Well sorry if I am boring you to death with this thread but believe me, I asked doctors and did my research online and there isn't a consensus about it. I had a boyfriend who thought he might have HIV (he didn't) and he was scared to death to let me perform oral sex on him. And I'm talking about someone who is not ignorant. People who have HIV for many years might have sufficient knowledge on this subject but most people don't. And it's not because they are not doing their homework right, it's because doctors cannot come to an agreement on this matter.


Online Joe K

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 09:05:14 AM »
Well sorry if I am boring you to death with this thread but believe me, I asked doctors and did my research online and there isn't a consensus about it. I had a boyfriend who thought he might have HIV (he didn't) and he was scared to death to let me perform oral sex on him. And I'm talking about someone who is not ignorant. People who have HIV for many years might have sufficient knowledge on this subject but most people don't. And it's not because they are not doing their homework right, it's because doctors cannot come to an agreement on this matter.

I never said I was bored, I said the topic was tedious, in that you don't get HIV from a blow job.  Did you not read the responses you received?

Like this one:

Even with a detectable VL you're not going to give anyone HIV by letting them give you a gobby. Not in the real world.

In the make believe world of some nervous nellies, maybe.

As a wise woman who dwells not a million miles away from this forum once observed:

"A person who thinks he got HIV from sucking cock doesn't know his ass from a hole in his head."

MtD

Or this one:

What Matty said.

I could copy and paste the scientific evidence, but I think succinct is better sometimes.

You were the one who thought you got poz from a blow job.  For claiming not to be ignorant of the methods of contracting HIV, you seem to be doing a pretty good job of attempting to confuse the issue.  That's also why I said this thread belonged in the I Just Tested forum.  Living with HIV means knowing the facts about HIV infection.

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2011, 09:46:22 AM »
You were the one who thought you got poz from a blow job.  For claiming not to be ignorant of the methods of contracting HIV, you seem to be doing a pretty good job of attempting to confuse the issue.  That's also why I said this thread belonged in the I Just Tested forum.  Living with HIV means knowing the facts about HIV infection.

When I asked the doctor if I could've got it from oral sex he said "Yes, it's possible". What was I supposed to think?

Offline wolfter

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2011, 09:55:04 AM »
When I asked the doctor if I could've got it from oral sex he said "Yes, it's possible". What was I supposed to think?

I would think it's possible.
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 04:05:36 PM »
I would think it's possible.

Science, stats, and epidemiology differ.

If anyone is brave enough to venture into the AM I forums and so a search for "oral sex" or just look at the last thirty or so postings Ann, RapidRpd, or myself have made, the chunks (and they are mighty chunks) or scientific evidence by which we base our assertions are splattered there. And are splattered there on a regular basis.

Sad thing about obsolete science or discredited studies. They just don't always wither up and blow away. Like bags of trash, they sometimes sit, unattended, for years - smelling increasingly foul.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 04:33:38 PM »
I actually believe that it's...nearly impossible I would say. Then again, sometimes when people are too scared about something, it doesn't matter how many statistics and knowledge you throw at them, they will continue to be scared.

Offline buginme2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 06:30:59 PM »
Okay, quick poll.  Who here got teh AIDS from getting a blow job? 

Offline denb45

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2011, 06:44:30 PM »
I'm afraid I cannot participate in this thread, as I didn't get teh AIDS form having sex, so without  further ado, I'll now go back into my hole, the same one I came out of before I write this post  ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline wolfter

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2011, 07:32:43 PM »
Okay, quick poll.  Who here got teh AIDS from getting a blow job? 

Guess I can't participate either.  I've had me the AIDS since before there were tests to confirm it. 
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2011, 07:53:26 PM »
Okay, quick poll.  Who here got teh AIDS from getting a blow job? 

AAnd this is why I don't participate in this part of the forum very much. I bring up the science - the very science we present in the AM I section - and people who insist they got HIV from oral claim that they are being attacked and ostracized. Flame war ensues.

No one remembers the charming cunnilingus flamewar last year? CUNNILINGUS for God's sake.

It always seems to go down that way.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline buginme2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2011, 08:33:07 PM »
people who insist they got HIV from oral claim that they are being attacked and ostracized. Flame war ensues.


I never claimed to have got HIV from a blow job, nor did I feel I was being attacked or ostracized.  If that was the impression I'm sorry.  

My point was.  No one can say (effectively) that they got HIV from oral sex.  The fact >everyone< here got it from intercourse, drug use, or from a blood to blood transfer should only reinforce the science you stated.  

Offline denb45

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2011, 08:48:14 PM »
Were all  AIDS infected cock-suckers in here, it's common knowledge , @ least most of us are  :D and NO, I don't believe it's possible to get teh AIDS that way  ;)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2011, 08:57:21 PM »
I wasnt attacking you, bug - I was rolling my eyes at the poll idea. Trust me, it's never ended well.

Apparently I am a bully who makes people afraid to post.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline buginme2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2011, 08:59:55 PM »

Apparently I am a bully who makes people afraid to post.

I ain't scrrd

Online Joe K

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2011, 09:04:11 PM »
I wasnt attacking you, bug - I was rolling my eyes at the poll idea. Trust me, it's never ended well.

Apparently I am a bully who makes people afraid to post.

A bully... no.  Brutally honest and science driven... yes.  Delusion can never stand against facts and for some, admitting they may be wrong is simply one bridge too far.  You know you make a difference, so keep up the good fight.  Don't forget your words extend well beyond these forums.  Lurkers may not speak, but they can always learn.

Joe

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2011, 09:15:09 PM »
That's the reason I brought up this subject...there is no consensus on this. Doctors disagree on this. I even read in an article online that the mucous that covers the back of the throat is a good receptor for HIV...so "normal oral sex" would be ok but deep throating wouldn't.

It's crazy. Then some people say that "swallowing is better than spitting" because the stomach acid kills the virus...but if you spit, it means that the sperm has been in direct contact with your gums and that's more dangerous.

And that's why I said that, when doctors and the government create these awareness campaigns, they should release info regarding oral sex. Especially in the case of gay men. Some gay men may not even do penetration during random hook-ups but blowjobs ALWAYS happen.

It would be nice to end this whole paranoia about this subject once and for all.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2011, 09:21:28 PM »
Well here goes:



There have been no verifiable documented cases of HIV being transmitted through any sexual activity other than penetrative anal and vaginal sex.

As you know, oral sex can mean four different things. Sucking, getting sucked, performing oral sex on a female, or being a female and having oral sex performed on you.

Of these four things, the ONLY subject of ANY controversy remains sucking/swallowing semen.

However, since the advent of HAART treatment to arrest HIV replication, there have been numerous studies of serodiscordant couples (thats where one  person is positive and one is negative)

These stories took place on two continents over the span of fifteen years, and followed couples with low/undetectable viral loads/on meds as well as those with HIV viral loads who were not yet on medication.

The result? Not a single transmission so long as the couples correctly and consistently used condoms for anal and vaginal sex. Not one.

One of the criteria of the studies was that the couples admitted to having used condoms ONLY for penetrative sex, NOT for oral sex. This admission, this criteria successfully removed the barrier of inaccurate patient report after the fact. insofar as oral sex was concerned.

Here are the studies in question:



No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS: Volume 16(17) 22 November 2002 pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan
Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117
Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.


and some repetition but elaboration:




No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral Dis.   2006   May   ;12   (3):219-28 16700731   
Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update.
J   Campo , M A   Perea , J   Del Romero , J   Cano , V   Hernando , A   Bascones
Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and many other viruses can be isolated in blood and body fluids, including saliva, and can be transmitted by genital-genital and especially anal-genital sexual activity. The risk of transmission of HIV via oral sexual practices is very low. Unlike other mucosal areas of the body, the oral cavity appears to be an extremely uncommon transmission route for HIV. We present a review of available evidence on the oral-genital transmission of HIV and analyse the factors that act to protect oral tissues from infection, thereby reducing the risk of HIV transmission by oral sex. Among these factors we highlight the levels of HIV RNA in saliva, presence of fewer CD4+ target cells, presence of IgA antibodies in saliva, presence of other infections in the oral cavity and the endogenous salivary antiviral factors lysozyme, defensins, thrombospondin and secretory leucocyte protease inhibitor (SLPI). Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219-228.

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/2AF5DF5C-ECEF-4854-80BA-09F86B483A02.asp

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102255339.html

AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan

Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

The Romero study used male/female relationships almost exclusively, with either male or female partner positive. The viral loads varied widely, as did the treatment options (or lack thereof) during the ten years of the study.

The Page-Shafer "HOT" study used homosexual males with different partners, studied both receptive and insertive oral sex.

The abstract of the study is also here:

http://www.aegis.com/conferences/iac/2002/TuPeC4872.html

An updated abstract of the Romero study is in:

Oral Dis.   2006 May   ;12   (3):219-28 16700731

An earlier Page-Shafer study regarding oral HIv transmission:

Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men.
AIDS. 16(17):2350-2352, November 22, 2002.
Page-Shafer, Kimberly a,b; Shiboski, Caroline H b; Osmond, Dennis H c; Dilley, James d; McFarland, Willi e; Shiboski, Steve C c; Klausner, Jeffrey D e; Balls, Joyce a; Greenspan, Deborah b; Greenspan, John S b

Other relevant studies, many of which reference either/both Romero and/or Page-Shafer, among others:

http://www.aidsonline.com/pt/re/aids/fulltext.00002030-199904160-00021.htm;jsessionid=G1nGq7PY37yynzdYy7CHvpqRwHKzNFS7J3gPvGYzGKp6Tz2nvFdx!1330140564!181195629!8091!-1?nav=search&searchid=1&index=21&results=1&count=10

Note the methodology for the Page-Shafer and Romero studies, and how they differ significantly from earlier studies which relied on post-infection patient report. In my opinion, that methodology dramatically increases the validity of the report.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117

Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.


Note that the last study illustrates the folly of patient report AFTER infection - which was all we had to go on before HAART and then the Romero study.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2011, 09:55:16 PM »
JK, you are very knowledgeable and I want to thank you for this last post, it's very enlightning and convincing.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2011, 01:09:28 AM »
The CDC just needs to come out and say that if you're going to do anything without a condom, suck dick.  What's the hold up?  Why won't they just come out and say oral sex will not transmit HIV?  You may get other STDs, but not HIV.  If the science says it is not a transmission route, then I think keeping it on the list creates safe-sex fatigue.  I've had a guy tell me he's already put himself at so much risk from sucking so many guys, that he figures why bother with a condom for anal sex.  Sounds like stupid logic to most here, but I think that is how so many think. 

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2011, 02:19:22 AM »
The CDC just needs to come out and say that if you're going to do anything without a condom, suck dick.  What's the hold up?  Why won't they just come out and say oral sex will not transmit HIV?  You may get other STDs, but not HIV.  If the science says it is not a transmission route, then I think keeping it on the list creates safe-sex fatigue.  I've had a guy tell me he's already put himself at so much risk from sucking so many guys, that he figures why bother with a condom for anal sex.  Sounds like stupid logic to most here, but I think that is how so many think.  

Because doctors don't usually say "It's 100% true" to a lot of things. What if a patient insist that he/she got from a blowjob and the doctors said it was ok to do it? Even condoms...no one says "It's 100% foulproof". They say it's "95%" or somethin. It's a very touchy subject. I agree with you and that's what pisses me off...but, then again, that's the sad reality.

I even heard a story about someone who sued a guy in the US because he didn't disclosure that he was HIV+. But there wasn't even penetration!! The "victim" was in no danger whatsoever, just took advantage of the law.



Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2011, 08:39:01 AM »
Because doctors don't usually say "It's 100% true" to a lot of things. What if a patient insist that he/she got from a blowjob and the doctors said it was ok to do it? Even condoms...no one says "It's 100% foulproof". They say it's "95%" or somethin. It's a very touchy subject. I agree with you and that's what pisses me off...but, then again, that's the sad reality.

Agreed. No doctor wants to go on record saying "Oral sex is 100% safe. Go ahead and do it" because someone will insist they got it from oral sex and sue the doctor for malpractice. This is particularly true because there are doctors who would support the argument that HIV transmission via oral sex "theoretically possible".

I wish more people would recognize that no sexually behavior is risk free. Whether it is bacterial infection, viral infection, allergic reaction to semen, penile fracture, cardiac arrest, embarrassing videos ending up online, having your heart broken or getting murdered by your date's ex-lover... stuff can happen. You take sensible precautions, minimize the risk and get on with it. Otherwise stick to masturbation... and worry you don't get an abrasion.

Offline denb45

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2011, 09:00:29 AM »
Otherwise stick to masturbation... and worry you don't get an abrasion.

I do masturbation about 80 to 90% of the time, Bob  my other-half will suggest other methods, but I always decline, for me it's the only way I can "get-off" he thinks it's a little odd, that I like it that way  :)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline wolfter

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2011, 09:02:32 AM »
I do masturbation about 80 to 90% of the time, Bob  my other-half will suggest other methods, but I always decline, for me it's the only way I can "get-off" he thinks it's a little odd, that I like it that way  :)

Roll over.... ;D
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline denb45

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2011, 09:12:33 AM »
Roll over.... ;D

Anything for you Greg, your wish is my command  :-*
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 09:14:19 AM by denb45 »
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Offline Ann

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2011, 09:22:21 AM »

This is particularly true because there are doctors who would support the argument that HIV transmission via oral sex "theoretically possible".


Yes, because it's "theoretically possible" for someone who has poor oral health to unwittingly suck the dick of someone who has very recently been infected and as a result, has a huge viral load of well over a million. (This is fairly common in the first weeks following initial infection.)

The very newly infected demographic is one that could not possibly have been included in the serodiscordant studies, as the people who were enrolled in the studies had already been diagnosed as hiv positive. I'm talking about people who are so recently infected that they'd probably not yet test positive on the antibody tests. This is the time period where the VL is often sky-high.

If the person doing the sucking of a newly infected individual has meth-mouth, or perhaps an oral syphilis, gonorrhea or chlamydia infection (all of which are increasingly prevalent in the MSM demographic) then all bets are off, as one might imagine.

It's a tricky subject for sure. In the Am I forum, most of the people who are worrying about sucking "licked the shaft" or "sucked for two seconds". These people just aren't at risk. The oral question isn't totally black and white, regardless of how much we wish it were. It IS black and white MOST of the time, but there are also shades of grey as well.

Um, it sucks, no pun intended.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2011, 09:31:57 AM »
I do masturbation about 80 to 90% of the time, Bob  my other-half will suggest other methods, but I always decline, for me it's the only way I can "get-off" he thinks it's a little odd, that I like it that way  :)

I don't think that is very unusual. I dated a guy who could only orgasm by getting fucked or having his prostate massaged, which I thought was a little odd.

Offline denb45

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2011, 09:48:49 AM »
I don't think that is very unusual. I dated a guy who could only orgasm by getting fucked or having his prostate massaged, which I thought was a little odd.

 :D Yeah different strokes for different folks I suppose, bob & I are a discordant couple, so we always find safe ways to "get off"  everything we do is a little odd to most, but we make do  :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Rockin

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2011, 10:39:04 AM »
:D Yeah different strokes for different folks I suppose, bob & I are a discordant couple, so we always find safe ways to "get off"  everything we do is a little odd to most, but we make do  :D

Then you think that if he sucked you he would be a risk, is that it?

Offline denb45

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2011, 10:51:25 AM »
Then you think that if he sucked you he would be a risk, is that it?

No I don't think that, he does, so were not worried about any of this after 18yrs. we just don't exchange any semen with each other  ;)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2011, 11:03:09 AM »
I don't know what kind of queens you boys hang around with, but even back in the Dark Ages nobody that I knew (and I knew a lot of people) thought you could get AIDS from a blow job.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2011, 11:05:23 AM »
Well sorry if I am boring you to death with this thread but believe me, I asked doctors and did my research online and there isn't a consensus about it. I had a boyfriend who thought he might have HIV (he didn't) and he was scared to death to let me perform oral sex on him. And I'm talking about someone who is not ignorant. People who have HIV for many years might have sufficient knowledge on this subject but most people don't. And it's not because they are not doing their homework right, it's because doctors cannot come to an agreement on this matter.

Doctors are assholes. Seriously, outside of writing prescriptions what would they know?

Bupkes, that's what.

And, for the record, I wouldn't wipe my ample ass on your research. You're a nebbish who couldn't find his own belly button without a torch and a map.

JK has given you the evidence. JK is wise.

On this issue you are a nudnik, you are.

MtD

Offline denb45

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Re: The whole "oral sex" thing
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2011, 11:07:55 AM »
I agree w/ Matty, only nelie's worry about such things as this  ;D if you wanna get a BJ then get one, if you wanna give one then give one, this thread is really gettin old & tride to me......
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

 


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