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Author Topic: Am I overreacting... ?  (Read 2736 times)

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Offline DanMo

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  • Finally undetectable! ;D
Am I overreacting... ?
« on: November 02, 2011, 10:51:42 AM »
So, I just got off the phone with a nurse from my clinic and it was a shocking conversation that I had, but first, some backstory:

On Monday, 31 October, I went in for a labs appointment but the nurse wasn't able to draw any blood since it wasn't flowing well. (I hadn't had anything to drink since the night before). So, she rescheduled my labs for this upcoming Thursday. I asked the nurse about the possibility of asking my doctor to add an order for a full STD panel since my last one was nearly 7 months ago. And I didn’t want to have to come back again to draw blood after seeing my doctor in two weeks to get the results of this week’s blood draw. She agreed, and said it didn’t make sense for me to have to come back multiple times when I could just get the blood drawn for everything on one appointment.

She said she'd inquire and that I should call back before my appointment to confirm. So I did this morning.

Ok, this is what happened this morning: I am patched through to the nurse's station and I tell the nurse what happened on Monday. There’s silence… I ask her if she can check. She responds that she can’t check right at the moment that she’ll have to go to the records room to check that out by looking at my file. I ask her if she could call me back to let me know what the doctor said.

And that’s when she starting ranting. She started out by saying that just cause I want a full STD panel that doesn’t mean that I’ll get it. That people shouldn’t be asking for stuff like that just because. She mentioned how I should be responsible by practicing safe sex. That the only time someone should be asking to be checked for an STD is if they find out that someone has been infected by something and is being treated and then it would be checking for that specific STD. She asked if I’m exhibiting any symptoms. I said, “No. I am just asking about it because people always say to get tested regularly if you’re sexually active”.

And she kept going: she said that if I found out, for example, that someone I slept with is being treated for syphilis, then that would be grounds for asking to be checked and then only being checked for syphilis.

I was in the parking lot at my work place and I wasn’t in the mood to get into an argument with her. I was about to retort that if I had her attitude, I would never have gotten checked for HIV since, in my mind, I thought I was protecting myself appropriately, none of the people I was sleeping with were poz, etc. That having been tested in Oct, Dec, and Feb would have just been a waste of time for me then.

But all I said was a meek, “Ok”. And silence. She sighed and asked for my telephone number. I was just so surprised since mostly everyone I’ve dealt with has been pretty liberal in terms for testing. I actually felt attacked by this lady, that I am just wasting time asking to be tested. And here I was thinking that I was being responsible by asking to be tested for STDs.

What do you guys think? I’m sure I didn’t do her rant any justice (she kept talking and talking and I can’t recall everything she said exactly. I was just shocked at what I was hearing.)

So, did I overreact? Am I being too insensitive?
“I tried to drown my sorrows, but the bastards learned how to swim, and now I am overwhelmed by this decent and good feeling.” —Frida Kahlo

11 Feb 2011 - Preliminary positive
07 Mar 11 - Inconclusive WB
14 Mar 11 - Diagnosed positive
05 Apr 11 - 355 (21%) / VL: 186,054
27 Apr 11 - 390 (20%) / VL: 285,095
06 Jun 11 - 298 (19%) / VL:  78,380
01 Aug 11 - > STARTED ATRIPLA <
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03 Nov 11 -                / VL: 645
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11 Jan 12 -                 / VL: <20
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Offline denb45

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2011, 11:09:23 AM »
Hey Dan, you'll have to ask your doctor to order a STD-full panel blood test, I'm surprised that rude nurse didn't tell you that, they will only do ( blood test) whatever the doctor has ordered, I would have told her to keep her opinions to her self, I mean you don't need a lecture on safe sex, you were just asking her about blood work she should have just answered your questions, and explained what you should tell your doctor, nothing more...she didn't have to go into her rant, that's very unprofessional of her....
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline buginme2

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2011, 11:35:00 AM »
Sounds like someone may have been having a bad day.  I wouldn't make to much out of it.  But if you feel as though you are getting ongoing difficulties you can mention it to your doctor or consider a different clinic/dr. 

At this point I would just think she was in a bad mood, maybe on your next appointment you can bring her some chocolate.

Offline mikeyb39

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2011, 11:41:52 AM »
I agree with den, she didn't need to go into a rant.  your doctor does have to approve the tests to be done, she could have just gotten the authorization.   My doctor always likes to see me every 4 months before the lab draw to see how i'm doing and if i have any questions or needs, but i never have to ask for an STD panel, he automatically does it when my labs are drawn.  That may not be the norm for some doctors.  i would bring that conversation up to the doc on your next visit.
11/02/2010  cd4-251, vl-591000
12/09/2010  started Atripla
02/18/2011  cd4-425, vl-800
06/10/2011  cd4-447, vl-70
10/10/2011  cd4-666, vl-80
01/05/2012  swiched med (prezista,norvir ,isentress, )
02/10/2012  cd4-733, vl-UD  Viread removed
06/10/2012  cd4-614, vl-UD
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2011, 12:46:14 PM »
I would report her.

Her attitude is what spreads illness, including HIV. Also, getting tested for STDs regularly shows that you are interested in preventing syphilis and gonorrhea from spreading - and arresting any illness that might really mess you up.

You also need to have it explained to her that MANY STD's, including syphilis and gonorrhea, can be spread DESPITE the use of condoms for penetrative sex. Either she doesn't know this (and should not be working as a nurse) or she is a bigot.

I'm sorry, I have a zero tolerance policy for that shit.

DO NOT let this go unremarked. Imagine these "rants" impacting public health.

Not to mention your own.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2011, 12:51:56 PM »
I would report her.

Her attitude is what spreads illness, including HIV. Also, getting tested for STDs regularly shows that you are interested in preventing syphilis and gonorrhea from spreading - and arresting any illness that might really mess you up.

You also need to have it explained to her that MANY STD's, including syphilis and gonorrhea, can be spread DESPITE the use of condoms for penetrative sex. Either she doesn't know this (and should not be working as a nurse) or she is a bigot.

I'm sorry, I have a zero tolerance policy for that shit.

DO NOT let this go unremarked. Imagine these "rants" impacting public health.

Not to mention your own.


Ditoo on EVERY point.

Oh, not on every point. I want to add I sense she is a b-tch and doesn't belong in a place to interface with already stressed people who are trying to take care of themselves.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 12:53:42 PM by emeraldize »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2011, 01:05:56 PM »


  She's proof that not all people are a good fit for the profession and I bet she lied on her application letter for nursing school.

  As Jon and Em said, I'd report her....
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline surf18

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2011, 04:58:19 PM »
I'm so pissed just reading this!
You have to report
You are the customer and deserve to be tested as such!

Offline mecch

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2011, 05:26:20 PM »
I'm so pissed just reading this!
You have to report
You are the customer and deserve to be tested as such!


Customer?? 

I really don't like this idea that health service is the same as a restaurant or a shop.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2011, 05:29:22 PM »
So, did I overreact? Am I being too insensitive?

Overreact?  Sounds like you under-reacted.  I think you felt harassed.  You didn't deserve that, and were too shocked or polite to tell her to save the lecture, and ask her again to answer your original question about getting the STD screen, or not.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 05:30:57 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2011, 06:09:11 PM »
Customer?? 

I really don't like this idea that health service is the same as a restaurant or a shop.

too bad -- a customer is exactly what you are when accessing health care.  They provide a service to you, just like a restaurant, shop or any other business.  Get over yourself.
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2011, 07:24:50 PM »
I don't want a customer model of healthcare where the focus is a financial transaction. That is part of the problem with healthcare in the US. No insurance? No cash? No service.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2011, 07:33:44 PM »
I don't want a customer model of healthcare where the focus is a financial transaction. That is part of the problem with healthcare in the US. No insurance? No cash? No service.

I am thinking of the "we have the right to refuse service to anyone" signs in eating/drinking establishments.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline bocker3

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2011, 07:55:21 PM »
I am thinking a "customer" is someone who is there to receive something from someone (I know, I know -- let the sex jokes begin). 
I look at the customer as the person who gets to say, yes or no to something -- the person who is "in charge", as it were.

and for the record -- it IS a financial transaction -- whether the "customer" pays, the insurance company pays, or the taxpayer pays.  SOMEONE (person or entity) is going to pay for the medical service received.  If you are looking at a customer only as the entity paying -- then my insurance company is the customer when I'm sitting with my doctor??  I don't think so -- it is I.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline MiniPozToyota

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2011, 09:15:33 PM »
WOW what a B*tch, I would have to report her, and I got full panels like every 3 months with my labs.
April 2010- tested neg.
Oct-Dec 2010- Came in contact time frame
March 29 2011- tested positive
April 1 2011 -  CD4 346 VL 46856 22% (Hometown hospital)
April 10 2011-  First Actual Appointment
April 11 2011-  CD4 576 VL 11898  44% (Out of state hospital)
May 09 2011- Genotype test no resistance
Jun  02 - CD4 363 VL 22,850  (Hometown hospital)
July 11 2011 - CD4 372 @25% 41,000 (Out of state hospital)
July 27 2011- Started Atripla
Sept 1 2011- CD4 485 VL 73
Oct 17 2011- CD4 389 VL UD @ 25%
Nov 21 2011- CD4 424 VL UD @ 31%
Mar 12 2012- CD4 504 VL UD @ 35%
May 14 2012- CD4 630 VL UD @ 43%
Aug 17 2012- CD4 689 VL UD @ 45%
Nov  6 2012 - CD4 659 VL UD @ 42%
Dec 17 2012 - CD4 859 VL UD @ 48% (out of state hospital)
Mar 18 2013 - CD$ 867 VL UD @ 44%

Offline wolfter

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2011, 09:47:03 PM »
Overreact?  NOT!   I'm mostly a mellow person but pitty the beotch who would speak to me like that.  I'd go "discuss" it with her in person.  Then I'd immediately discuss with her supervisor and follow all the way up until something is done.  Even an apology and a excuse would be a good start.

I've had bad days at work too and have probably treated "customers" badly but it should be promptly addressed.

Wolfie
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 12:13:33 AM by wolfter »
productivity breeds content

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2011, 11:57:56 PM »
Wow!  As everyone said, she needs to be reported.  You are doing the responsible thing by trying to find out whether you have something--for your health and others. 

I've seen this attitude from a couple medical workers.  They openly complained about how people come in for HIV tests every 3 months.  From their point of view, they believed these people were not using protection.  But, it doesn't matter whether they used protection.  Even if they took load after unprotected load, they were being responsible by getting tested every 3 months.  I admire those people.  Many, and I have to include myself, were too afraid to get tested and put others at risk.  And, I know those medical workers had no idea whether they were using protection or not.  And, again, it doesn't matter. 

I think the big thing with many people is that they think we got HIV because we were "whores" and that we really shouldn't be having sex at all.  I do believe many think if you're not in a relationship, you should abstain from sex.  I had a fellow pozzie in the waiting room tell me many people were shocked he still had a sex life.  He said one told him, "Hasn't sex already brought you enough problems." 

Offline Growler

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2011, 01:09:18 AM »
In answer to the original question, No you're not over-reacting.

If you want to complain about this situation (and I believe that you should) then understand that bitching probably wont achieve a satisfactory outcome.
 
To have a chance of actually changing anything, you need outline your concerns in a clear, polite and considered manner, in WRITING. Don't be tempted to make a personal attack, ie the woman was a bitch, you'll just come across as a complaining queen. Instead concentrate on the issues that are central to your concerns, that being she is giving out incorrect and inappropriate advice and doesn't appear to understand the needs of the clients accessing the service; you can use your own experience to illustrate this.

Try to be neutral in your tone when describing the situation, ie don't say "I was shocked" or "She upset me." instead be matter of fact, "She told me that", "her advice was inconsistent with what I'd previosu been told." etc

Last bit of advice, think of criticism as the filling of a sandwich. To make the sandwich whole, you need use a couple of slices of flattery to hold the filling in place....ie I have always felt like a valued client of your clinic, I was disappointed by this situation, I appreciate you wish to maintain your high standards.

If this doesn't work, then slash the bitches tires.

GROWLER
“If loving someone is putting them in a straitjacket and kicking them down a flight of stairs, then yes, I have loved a few people.”

Offline Theyer

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2011, 07:30:01 AM »
In answer to the original question, No you're not over-reacting.

If you want to complain about this situation (and I believe that you should) then understand that bitching probably wont achieve a satisfactory outcome.
 
To have a chance of actually changing anything, you need outline your concerns in a clear, polite and considered manner, in WRITING. Don't be tempted to make a personal attack, ie the woman was a bitch, you'll just come across as a complaining queen. Instead concentrate on the issues that are central to your concerns, that being she is giving out incorrect and inappropriate advice and doesn't appear to understand the needs of the clients accessing the service; you can use your own experience to illustrate this.

Try to be neutral in your tone when describing the situation, ie don't say "I was shocked" or "She upset me." instead be matter of fact, "She told me that", "her advice was inconsistent with what I'd previosu been told." etc

Last bit of advice, think of criticism as the filling of a sandwich. To make the sandwich whole, you need use a couple of slices of flattery to hold the filling in place....ie I have always felt like a valued client of your clinic, I was disappointed by this situation, I appreciate you wish to maintain your high standards.

If this doesn't work, then slash the bitches tires.

GROWLER

Strongly agree with the above.
When reporting bad behaviour, if your letter contains a hint off it retaliation it let the person/institution  being report to hang the problem right back on you.
In this situation I think I would begin by saying  that I was writting in order to gain clarity about there policy on testing for STD as I have had very differant responses when I have asked for tests.....it will allow you to give a description off the outburst and the parts of it that are bad practice.

Good luck mhtv







"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline Basquo

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2011, 08:11:32 AM »
She should reap what she sows...Maybe a little time and hassle will teach her some manners.

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/enforcement/frm_general-medUCF.pdf

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2011, 09:28:14 AM »
...
What do you guys think? I’m sure I didn’t do her rant any justice (she kept talking and talking and I can’t recall everything she said exactly. I was just shocked at what I was hearing.)

So, did I overreact? Am I being too insensitive?

No, you aren't being too sensitive.  I think you demonstrated remarkable restraint.  If you are sexually active, then it makes sense to be proactive and get tested for STDs regularly.   It sounds like, for some reason, she was very frustrated and started making up her own guidelines on testing.  But I think it showed some underlying prejudice about people with STDs and people who are sexually active.  That's the kind of attitude that prevents people from getting tested.

Even though I'm not in the same industry, as a manager I would want to know if any of my employees had an outburst like this.  You might want to address it directly with the doctor or office manager.  The form that Basquo provided above states that they don't address personality or attitude issues.  So if you want to pursue a formal complaint with the state, I suggest you complain that they refused to provide you necessary / requested services.   

Regards,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline Ann

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2011, 12:00:20 PM »
I would report her.

Her attitude is what spreads illness, including HIV. Also, getting tested for STDs regularly shows that you are interested in preventing syphilis and gonorrhea from spreading - and arresting any illness that might really mess you up.

You also need to have it explained to her that MANY STD's, including syphilis and gonorrhea, can be spread DESPITE the use of condoms for penetrative sex. Either she doesn't know this (and should not be working as a nurse) or she is a bigot.

I'm sorry, I have a zero tolerance policy for that shit.

DO NOT let this go unremarked. Imagine these "rants" impacting public health.

Not to mention your own.



Spot on. No, you weren't overreacting and yes, she should be reported.

In addition to the points Jonathan brings up, there is also the issue of her asking if you are exhibiting any symptoms. That's a huge, stinking pile of crap. Many STIs don't always have any obvious symptoms, notably chlamydia. It's one of the reasons why it's the leading STI in most countries. Up to 70% of people never have a single noticeable symptom of chlamydia, so they don't get tested, don't get treated and therefore spread it to others.

Gonorrhea is also often unnoticed, particularly when it infects the throat. A person with unnoticed, untreated oral gonorrhea can go on to infect many others while giving blowjobs.

Another STI that doesn't always have noticeable symptoms is syphilis. Because the chancres are painless, unless the person can actually see the chancres, they often go unnoticed.

These are all STIs that are very easily transmitted, MUCH more easily transmitted than hiv, and can be transmitted despite condom use.

I have to wonder how many people this woman has discouraged from testing and how many STIs were passed on to others as a result? She definitely needs to be reported, reprimanded, and sent on an STI prevention/testing/treatment course before she is permitted to interact with any more patients in an STI/hiv clinic setting. She's dangerous and could be single handedly responsible for the onward transmission of hiv and other STIs.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline DanMo

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2011, 03:28:21 PM »
Wow! Thank you guys for responding! I really appreciate your insight into this situation. I’m glad to hear that some of you think I should have reacted more than what I did since my first reaction was to want to call my peer counselor at the clinic and complain, but I wanted to make sure I wasn’t being thin-skinned.

Many of you say that I should report this nurse and I agree, but unfortunately, I never got her name.

jkinatl2
Quote
You also need to have it explained to her that MANY STD's, including syphilis and gonorrhea, can be spread DESPITE the use of condoms for penetrative sex. Either she doesn't know this (and should not be working as a nurse) or she is a bigot.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I heard her make her presumptuous comments implying that if I was practicing safe sex I shouldn’t have to worry about testing for STDs. It’s not just what she said, but how she said it. She made me feel embarrassed for asking about testing for STDs.

meech
Quote
Overreact?  Sounds like you under-reacted.  I think you felt harassed.  You didn't deserve that, and were too shocked or polite to tell her to save the lecture, and ask her again to answer your original question about getting the STD screen, or not.

Thanks meech. I did feel very uncomfortable speaking to her. I had a million things racing through my mind to say to her but I was already late for work and I didn’t feel up to starting a fight over the phone. I do understand though that usually you ask for an STD panel when you’re actually having the appointment with the doctor, but I just wanted to save having to come back in two weeks and waiting some more weeks for my next blood draw. (BTW, I went in this morning and my blood flowed! :D But the nurse that attended me let me know that the doctor decided to wait and see how my VL is before ordering an STD panel).

MiniPozToyota
Quote
I got full panels like every 3 months with my labs.

That’s really great man! I wish they’d do this at my clinic. My last STD panel was when I first starting going to the clinic, which was about 7 months ago. And obviously, I’ve had sex since then, but I know that even with condoms, some of those buggers can be passed on.

Wolfter: I think you’re much braver than I am! I’m usually non-confrontational and let things slide or find ways to just complain about it my friends (or to a forum full of people I’ve never met!  ;) )
“I tried to drown my sorrows, but the bastards learned how to swim, and now I am overwhelmed by this decent and good feeling.” —Frida Kahlo

11 Feb 2011 - Preliminary positive
07 Mar 11 - Inconclusive WB
14 Mar 11 - Diagnosed positive
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Offline jkinatl2

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  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2011, 03:57:40 PM »
Quote
I have to wonder how many people this woman has discouraged from testing and how many STIs were passed on to others as a result? She definitely needs to be reported, reprimanded, and sent on an STI prevention/testing/treatment course before she is permitted to interact with any more patients in an STI/hiv clinic setting. She's dangerous and could be single handedly responsible for the onward transmission of hiv and other STIs.

THIS, this and this!

I understand not being terribly confrontational. But if it helps, think of it as doing activist work to help the community. You might be literally saving lives when you discuss this unprofessional and unwarranted behavior.

You have no idea how often I bite my tongue when I read in the Just Tested forum from a poster who is shocked as his or her diagnosis because s/he "wasn't promiscuous." As though HIV kept score.

What that nurse did - and likely does to others - reinforces EXACTLY that stigma, that ludicrous judgment on a bunch of Goddamned PATHOGENS.

Very little makes me angrier than a person in authority who abuses that authority.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline hope_for_a_cure

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Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2011, 04:48:12 PM »
Whatever you do... do it in writing as well.  I learned a long time ago to document, document, and document. 

I recently had a less than pleasurable experience with a new ID Specialist at my ASO and calmly but factually documented his deviation from known HIV/AIDS treatment consensus and presented it to my case worker.  She quickly responded and actually agreed with me while also thanking me.

In the meantime I know its causing undue stress for you to have to deal with such.  Try to address it as calmly as you can. 

Offline emeraldize

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  • Posts: 3,335
Re: Am I overreacting... ?
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2011, 09:32:06 PM »
Many of you say that I should report this nurse and I agree, but unfortunately, I never got her name.

All you have to do is contact the person in charge, give them the date and time of the call. I assure you someone can figure out EXACTLY who was on duty, who could have taken the call AND I'll hazard a guess this is not the first time she's f'd up like this with a patient/consumer/customer/client.

Given institutional and community concerns about quality assurance, patient compliance, etc. I can almost guarantee you this person's supervisor will want to know about this situation. She's a weak link and could cause a patient great harm and in a worst-case scenario could create eventual grounds for legal action.

If I were talking with that supervisor, I would suggest they need to have the ability to spot check/monitor calls for quality purposes. The person with whom you spoke might not be the only one who treats people this way. Sometimes, sadly, it's systemic.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 08:53:43 AM by emeraldize »

 


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