Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
E-newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr MySpace
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 28, 2014, 01:36:18 AM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 636387
  • Total Topics: 48294
  • Online Today: 165
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: What Percent Are You?  (Read 5360 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline buginme2

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,834
What Percent Are You?
« on: October 20, 2011, 05:17:05 PM »
WSJ has an online calculator that you enter your income and it tells you where your income stands in relation to the population of the United States.  To be included in the top 1% you need to make at least $506,000 per year.  For the bottom 1% you need to make less than $2500 per year.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/10/19/what-percent-are-you/

Offline leatherman

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,143
  • Google and HIV meds are Your Friends
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 05:51:38 PM »
good grief! not even making $10K, I figured I'd be at the bottom of the pile; but I made it all the way up to 8% LOL
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,484
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 06:08:29 PM »
They published an article in the local newspaper today. Credit Suisse research global individual net worth, and Switzerland came out of top with over 500,000 average net worth for a citizen.  Wow!  Also Switzerland is no 3 for having the  most 1%.  USA No. 1 - by far - many times more than other countries. Then China. Then tiny Switzerland.

The movement took hold last week in Geneva and the authorities gave them the green light to stay in their camp indefinitely.  
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 05:27:58 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Theyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,496
  • Current ambition. Walk the Dog .
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 06:59:17 PM »
All that luvley money from chocolate , cuckoo clocks , beautiful scenery and the blood off slaughtered millions.
t
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 07:27:31 PM »
For the bottom 1% you need to make less than $2500 per year.




Yeah that's me, I make less than 25,000 a yr.  ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 07:52:28 PM »
Oh Wait 2,500 per yr. I don't think you can even live in the US on that without some kinda assistance, food stamps, medicaid or Sec 8 now that's what I call real poverty  ??? I could be wrong here, but you cannot live in the US on $200 a month, that's impossible......
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline hope_for_a_cure

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,502
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 07:59:34 PM »
Income is highly overrated.  I live off of love, fruits, and berries.  Oh... and roasted nuts!

Offline leatherman

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,143
  • Google and HIV meds are Your Friends
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2011, 08:33:55 PM »
I could be wrong here, but you cannot live in the US on $200 a month, that's impossible......
i've wondered about that sort of situation. I don't know if numbers are different elsewhere; but in Ohio a single male on welfare receives $180 a month, and that is only for 2 yrs. Sadly, I wonder how those people are able to keep a roof over their heads, much less pay for utilites - even if they do receive the full amount of $179 in food stamps a month. :(

I live off of love, fruits, and berries.
mmmm, I was living off those great jams and pickles you brought over a few months ago.  ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline OneTampa

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,168
  • "Butterflies are free."
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2011, 08:36:43 PM »
Income is highly overrated.  I live off of love, fruits, and berries.  Oh... and roasted nuts!

White coat attendant:  "OK, Lumpkins.  Stop scaring the other patients with that crazy talk and let's go back to your room."

HFAC: "But it's true I tell ya! All you need are LOVE, FRUITS, BERRIES and NUTS (roasted)!"

White coat attendant:  "Nuts.  Right."

_____________

Hope, I'm just messing with ya!

OT

 :D ;D
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 08:38:21 PM by OneTampa »
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2011, 08:45:35 PM »
i've wondered about that sort of situation. I don't know if numbers are different elsewhere; but in Ohio a single male on welfare receives $180 a month, and that is only for 2 yrs. Sadly, I wonder how those people are able to keep a roof over their heads, much less pay for utilites - even if they do receive the full amount of $179 in food stamps a month. :(
mmmm, I was living off those great jams and pickles you brought over a few months ago.  ;)

Isn't it deathly COLD in Ohio in the Winter, I mean don't they find dead folks FROZEN cuz they couldn't afford any heat? my hubby Bob says that up where he's from near the Canadian border up in Odgdensburg, NY that's 50 miles from Brockville Canada and 180 miles from Ottawa ( yeah it's very cold where he's form it can get -70 below in the dead of winter), and he says that every yr. they find frozen to death people who cannot  afford pay for any heat, so they just die and freeze to death  ???
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,286
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2011, 08:53:51 PM »
i've wondered about that sort of situation. I don't know if numbers are different elsewhere; but in Ohio a single male on welfare receives $180 a month, and that is only for 2 yrs. Sadly, I wonder how those people are able to keep a roof over their heads, much less pay for utilites - even if they do receive the full amount of $179 in food stamps a month. :(
mmmm, I was living off those great jams and pickles you brought over a few months ago.  ;)
In Ohio on SSI a single person tops out at 674 on SSI and gets a max of 200 on FS if not getting housing.

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 09:22:52 PM »
In Ohio on SSI a single person tops out at 674 on SSI and gets a max of 200 on FS if not getting housing.

 ??? I guess I don't really know what the level of poverty is, I've never really been there before, I do know that in the State of New Mexico, were @ 20% of the poverty level, so were running a very close 2nd with the State of Mississippi, I think they are @ 22%, however I'm sure each State is very different  ???
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline leatherman

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,143
  • Google and HIV meds are Your Friends
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2011, 09:42:23 PM »
In Ohio on SSI a single person tops out at 674 on SSI and gets a max of 200 on FS if not getting housing.
I checked online and see the FS amount in Ohio has gone up a few dollars since I left a few yrs ago. ;) with my SSd income of less than $725 a mnth, paying for my housing and utils. I would be eligible for $200 in FS now - that's a far cry from the $96 that SC provides me currently, paying out the same amt for housing and utils. ::) I keep writing my legislators about why there is such a disparity between what the feds say I should get in FS and what SC pays in FS but no one every chooses to reply to that issue. LOL :D ::)

I also checked and see that I was wrong about the welfare amount too. The current maximum cash payment for individuals is only $115 (Ohio Welfare Benefits | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6331872_ohio-welfare-benefits.html#ixzz1bNNmbWEe "for couples the payment is $159 per month")

So i still wonder how people are able to manage keeping a roof over their heads with only that amount of assistance?
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,009
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2011, 10:45:05 PM »
You can get a different perspective by entering your income into Global Rich List. I have no idea how accurate these things are.

http://globalrichlist.com/

Offline Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,616
  • 31 Years Poz
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2011, 11:11:02 PM »
You can get a different perspective by entering your income into Global Rich List. I have no idea how accurate these things are.

http://globalrichlist.com/

Interesting link, $10k US puts one in the top 13.31% of the world's richest people, which means that around 87% of the world population lives on less than $10k dollars a year.

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,965
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2011, 11:20:53 PM »
My calculator must be broke cause I rank at 38% --- sure doesn't feel like it --- especially a few days before payday :'(
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2011, 11:41:18 PM »
You're in the TOP 11.16%
richest people in the world!
WUT  ??? I think that thing is broken
I know dam well I aint ...shit  ???
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,616
  • 31 Years Poz
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2011, 11:47:55 PM »
You're in the TOP 11.16%
richest people in the world!
WUT  ??? I think that thing is broken
I know dam well I aint ...shit  ???

I think what this means is that there are billions of people in extreme poverty and even with our modest incomes, we still make more than most of the world.

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2011, 12:00:11 AM »
I think what this means is that there are billions of people in extreme poverty and even with our modest incomes, we still make more than most of the world.

True, but of course ten thousand dollars buys a lto more in some areas of the world than in others. Some parts of the USA, for that matter. I found the calculator a little simplistic when determining true poverty. It was, however, enlightening to show just how disparate the classes actually are.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2011, 12:01:58 AM »
I think what this means is that there are billions of people in extreme poverty and even with our modest incomes, we still make more than most of the world.

I suppose, my ASO case worker said your not really poor, your just low-income, that's why you cannot get Medicaid, food-stamps, and sec 8 hosing , all you qualify for is ADAP to pay for your H.A.R.R.T meds each
month, but with a very modest income, I don't see any riches, I can get only what I need, anything else
I have to save up for  ???
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline wolfter

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,460
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2011, 05:30:29 AM »
This all is a bit simplistic.  Being a single person and having a high tax liability when working, I'd have to make close to $20 per hour to "net" the same expendable income I currently receive.  Probably more, since the expenses involved with working, and commuting to the high paying jobs would add up considerably.

Wolfie

Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,484
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2011, 05:47:57 AM »
About that global rich list.
Yes of course it is informative to keep in mind standards of living around the world.  So if you earn 20,000, yes of course its one of the higher salaries in the world.  It is rather meaningless about how that 20,000 is experienced in your life, however.

For that, UBS (Union Banques Suisses) developed a tool over 10 years ago called the Big Mac Index.  I posted about it here a while back.  Recently The Economist bought the rights to it. You can read about it on wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index

This Big Mac Index lists and ranks the exact price of the sandwhich around the world. (by doing currency values) and then it does another calculation of local wages - to tell you how long it takes to work to buy a big mac in a city:

Ten fastest earned (July 2009)
Tokyo, Japan - 10 minutes
Los Angeles, United States - 11 minutes
Chicago, Illinois, United States - 12 minutes
Miami, Florida, United States - 12 minutes
New York City, New York, United States - 13 minutes
Auckland, New Zealand - 14 minutes
Sydney, Australia - 14 minutes
Toronto, Ontario, Canada - 14 minutes
Zürich, Switzerland - 15 minutes
Dublin, Ireland - 15 minutes

Vs, for example:
Nairobi, Kenya - 158 minutes
Jakarta, Indonesia - 136 minutes
Mexico City, Mexico - 129 minutes

Naturally, if you are a worker in Mexico City earning an average salary, you are probably NOT going to buy that McDonalds product, but can afford some kind of lunch that is cheaper.

-----------------

When I think of all my experiences in life, the most hideous one was being homeless. 

I never was starving so I don't know what that is like.  I was never sick and in pain for a long time.  I had chronic diseases that were difficult to get over but they dont rank among life's worst experiences.  Broken heart - awful!  Betrayals by friends, family, or lovers, that can be pretty awful too.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,484
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2011, 06:09:28 AM »
Here is the CS press release:
https://www.credit-suisse.com/news/en/media_release.jsp?ns=41874

This it the table that tells how much a person is worth:
https://www.credit-suisse.com/upload/news-live/000000022454.pdf

I will have to get the report and see if it also includes the lowest net worths..
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2011, 11:08:01 AM »
This all is a bit simplistic.  Being a single person and having a high tax liability when working, I'd have to make close to $20 per hour to "net" the same expendable income I currently receive.  Probably more, since the expenses involved with working, and commuting to the high paying jobs would add up considerably.

Wolfie



So True Greg, here in New Mexico and looking @ what I use to do for a living back in Nor-Cal, it's kinda pointless for me to do that now, it only pays 17K to 22K a yr. here in New Mexico, it paid 28k to 34K a yr. back in Nor-Cal  ??? and I doubt I could even do that type of work anymore, as I'm not in great health as it is  ???
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline WillyWump

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,162
  • your ramblings bore Yamaguchi Kitteh
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2011, 06:46:57 PM »
I am the 2%

POZ since '08

Last Labs-
6/3/14 CD4- 736, UD 34%
6/25/13 CD4- 1036, UD,
2/4/13, CD4 - 489, UD, 28%

Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
.

Offline odyssey

  • Member
  • Posts: 765
  • One Crazy Mofo!
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2011, 10:29:08 PM »
My income puts my at 7% of US tax-filers.

I've noticed lots of you are posting and discussing but haven't posted what percent you are. Shy much?

odyssey
01/09/09- diagnosed HIV+
01/16/09   CD4-425    22%  VL- 32,415
11/09- started Reyetaz/Norvir/Truvada
03/10- stopped R/N/T
10/18/11   CD4- 328   20%  VL- 84,000
10/25/11   CD4- 386   22%
10/28/11- start Truvada/Reyetaz/Norvir
12/30/11  CD4- 523  29%
03/08/12  CD4- 503  31%  VL 57
07/02/12  CD4- 897  43%
08/31/12  CD4- 745  39%
12/27/12  CD4- 884  40%
03/28/13  CD4- 819  39%
07/19/13  CD4- 739  40%
10/17/13  CD4- 535  36%
01/16/14  CD4- 743  43%

02/14- switched from R/N/T to Tivicay/Epzicom because of CKD 3 suspected from tenofovir.

03/14- switched back to R/N/T due to severe nausea and inability to eat on T/E.
 
04/01/14 CD4- 898  42%   VL-

Offline OneTampa

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,168
  • "Butterflies are free."
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2011, 11:00:00 AM »
I find it hard to believe that I make more than 80% of the people who filed taxes in the US.
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2011, 11:20:18 AM »
I think what this means is that there are billions of people in extreme poverty and even with our modest incomes, we still make more than most of the world.

Yeah I agree, I got this form Joe, and he lives in Canada, if you read what that is trying to say they are comparing your income to the rest of the world ( in other words if I lived in Mexico south of the border)
I'd be a rich man, but since I live in the US with all of it's inflation, I'll always be a poor ass mofo  :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline LM

  • Member
  • Posts: 409
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2011, 12:54:03 PM »
Remember: you guys live in the richest country in the world. Even if you are at the bottom 10%, you're probably still in the top 10% of the world. If you think you're situation is bad, try to imagine elsewhere.

Offline bocker3

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,374
  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2011, 02:33:18 PM »
I find this question and the whole new "percent" phenomenon rather bizarre. 

It smacks me of little more than envy.

Do people actually think that everyone should be "equal" financially?  That would be going against pretty much all of human history.

Everyone seems so focused on this 1% who make, whatever it is that gets them there.  Actually they seem focused on the portion of the 1% in the financial industry.  Where are the sit-ins at Lady Gaga's house -- she made $90 million last year.  Where are the sit-ins at any top sport stars house?  I mean doesn't anyone see the irony (or hypocrisy) of Alec Baldwin going down to the OWS rally?  He makes millions of dollars AND does commercials for a Financial company.

I grew up poor (well, US poor) -- on welfare, etc, so I get the frustration and danger that comes with poverty.  I am no longer poor, true -- not anywhere near this mythical 1%, but I am doing just fine.  I also try hard to help others -- whether family, friends or charities.
This whole movement seems focused on envy -- if it really is reform that is wanted, I'm all for it -- but optically, this all smacks of simple envy.  Others have what "I" want.  Not to mention, they are costing the 99% a whole lot of money.  The security requirements for these demonstrations are coming right out of, already strapped, public budgets.  How is that going to be helpful?

OWS is to the left, what the Tea Party is to right -- only not as well organized (yet).  They are both extremist.  If we really do want reform and improvements the LAST thing we need is another group of extremists. 

Now, I know that I am probably in the minority on these boards with this thinking -- but, there you have it.  I am more a member of the middle -- where, it seems to me, most Americans sit.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline wolfter

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,460
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2011, 02:48:35 PM »
I'm right there with you Mike.  But I'm seldom the first to disagree.  Fearful of that time out thingy again I guess ;D 

Also, listing what percentile we fall into is basically bragging or complaining what our individuals incomes are or aren't.  I saw no point in answering that, just like if someone asked me directly how much I make.  Again, I feel this whole analysis is overly simplistic.

Wolfie
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2011, 03:20:58 PM »
Case-in-point  " if you compare yourself with others ( the have not's & wants more's)
then you will become a very vein & bitter person, and you will never be happy what whatever
 it is you may have, I always just wanted to be comfortable & to be able to support my self , that
was all I could have ever hope for as well as good health, doing so (comparing yourself with others) also make one a very SHALLOW person ........just saying  ;)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,484
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2011, 03:46:48 PM »
I disagree with Bocker. I don't think OWS has much at all to do with envy.
It has been so well expressed a few times in this forum. Its a sense that the division between rich and poor is RIGGED.  

Also Rachel Maddow replacement Melissa Harris-Perry points out yesterday that more and more and more children are living in poverty.  

So everytime the right says that the struggling, working stiff, with ever less a safety net, and the long term unemployed - ITS THEIR FAULT, for being losers -- everytime it is overlooking the fact that there are children growing up in a rich, advanced country where neither their parents nor the government can give a decent standard of living.  

Its is NOT about jealously. Its about distribution of wealth, and a fair shake for hard work.  Go to work full time in America, you should be able to afford all the basics. And we KNOW this is NOT true.  There is too much insecurity and anxiety in daily life for too many people.  

Meanwhile, any professor on the left can give you statistics about how there has been a transfer of wealth to the richest Americans.  

It's about justice and a fair deal, in a great country.  Americans don't hate the rich. They hate FAKE products being used to transfer wealth.  Fake banking assets.  Fake American corporate wealth creation --- like Romney's - made on selling out the American worker.  How the fuck is that guy a "job creator".  

Sports stars and pop stars and entertainment stars get wealthy because they RETURN income to all their investors and give pleasure to the people who appreciate their special talents.   Lady Gaga hasn't ripped off anyone to make her millions..  Talented woman who shakes her ass and makes an entertaining product that sells.  Nobody has been ripped off here.

Repackaged sub-prime mortgages - that was a rip off.
Gutting employee pension plans (that were prefectly sound) and the money ending up in Executive pay, golden parachutes for shitty job performance, and locked in immense retirement benefits - thats a rip off.
Trying to privatize social security - this will be a MAJOR rip off, cause it will siphon huge amounts into money managers, before they bankrupt it.

Don't drink this kool-aid.  Americans like their rich and want to believe in the American Success Story - what they don't want is this completely rigged game we've got going on.




 

« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 03:48:53 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,965
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2011, 04:26:32 PM »


It smacks me of little more than envy.


Everyone seems so focused on this 1% who make, whatever it is that gets them there.  

I grew up poor (well, US poor) -- on welfare, etc, so I get the frustration and danger that comes with poverty.  I am no longer poor, true -- not anywhere near this mythical 1%,

This whole movement seems focused on envy -- -- but optically, this all smacks of simple envy.  Others have what "I" want.  Not to mention, they are costing the 99% a whole lot of money.  The security requirements for these demonstrations are coming right out of, already strapped, public budgets.  How is that going to be helpful?

OWS is to the left, what the Tea Party is to right -- only not as well organized (yet).  They are both extremist.  If we really do want reform and improvements the LAST thing we need is another group of extremists.  

Now, I know that I am probably in the minority on these boards with this thinking -- but, there you have it.  I am more a member of the middle -- where, it seems to me, most Americans sit.

Mike

Some people need to pull their heads out of their "4th point of contact."  ;D (and I mean that in a loving way)

So, I guess we didn't need the founding fathers - they were extremists.

I definitely don't think this is envy - nor, do others who are part of the "mythical" 99% you cite (BTW, where do you come up with "mythical?"  --- talk about a value laden word, particularly in this context)

What Occupy Wall Street Stands For
http://www.thefastertimes.com/politicalanalysis/2011/10/10/what-occupy-wall-street-stands-for/

Also:
Interesting report from the Hillary Clinton fundraiser last night:  Warren Buffet complained that he paid a 17.7% tax rate on his $46 million of taxable income in 2006, while his employees paid an average 32.9% tax rate (his receptionist's tax rate was 30%).

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/06/warren-buffet-p.html

Also:
True Cost of Bank Bailout -
We all know about TARP, the Troubled Asset Relief Program, which spent $700 billion in taxpayers’ money to bail out banks after the financial crisis. That money was scrutinized by Congress and the media.

But it turns out that that $700 billion is just a small part of a much larger pool of money that has gone into propping up our nation’s financial system. And most of that taxpayer money hasn’t had much public scrutiny at all.

According to a team at Bloomberg News, at one point last year the U.S. had lent, spent or guaranteed as much as $12.8 trillion to rescue the economy. The Bloomberg reporters have been following that money. Alison Stewart spoke with one, Bob Ivry, to talk about the true cost to the taxpayer of the Wall Street bailout.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/economy/the-true-cost-of-the-bank-bailout/3309/

Also:
What is immediately obvious is that US debt is currently $3.5 trillion higher than where it would be had America's banks not received a rescue.That is Sean's conclusion. It is however incomplete. The truth is that this is a proportional increase which if extrapolated into the future, means that every year the US will incur well over $1.2 trillion each and every year as a result of bailing out the banks.

https://goldsilver.com/new/visualizing-the-true-cost-of-the-first-bank-bailout-3-5-trillion-and-rising-at-over-1-trillion-every-year/

Also:
The bank reported third quarter gains of $6.2 billion, compared to a $7.3 billion loss during the same quarter last year.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/18/bank-of-america-earnings-report_n_1017153.html

Also:

Setting a new record for profits, US Bancorp raked in $1.273 billion in profit last quarter. Maybe they saw that Occupy MN had about $6,000 cash on hand and thought, "We'll show those punks. We throw $6,000 in our marble fireplaces every night."

The Minneapolis-based bankers are pretty pleased with themselves, explaining in their press release that their profits last quarter are "40.2 percent higher than the $908 million for the third quarter of 2010 and 5.8 percent higher than the $1,203 million for the second quarter of 2011." Basically, US Bank, recalling the best performances of Michael Jordan, just put this game away by scoring 1.2 billion points in the third quarter.

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2011/10/us_bank_record_profits_third_quarter_occupy_wall_street.php

Also:
– Bank profits are highest since before the recession…: According to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., bank profits in the first quarter of this year were “the best for the industry since the $36.8 billion earned in the second quarter of 2007.” JP Morgan Chase is currently pulling in record profits.
– …even as the banks plan thousands of layoffs: Banks, including Bank of America, Barclays, Goldman Sachs, and Credit Suisse, are planning to lay off tens of thousands of workers.
– Banks make nearly one-third of total corporate profits: The financial sector accounts for about 30 percent of total corporate profits, which is actually down from before the financial crisis, when they made closer to 40 percent.
– Since 2008, the biggest banks have gotten bigger: Due to the failure of small competitors and mergers facilitated during the 2008 crisis, the nation’s biggest banks — including Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, and Wells Fargo — are now bigger than they were pre-recession. Pre-crisis, the four biggest banks held 32 percent of total deposits; now they hold nearly 40 percent.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/10/07/338887/1-facts-biggest-banks/

And finally -
Suddenly, the issues of equity, fairness, justice, income distribution, and accountability for the economic cataclysm–issues all but ignored for a generation—are front and center. We have moved beyond the one-dimensional conversation about how much and where to cut the deficit. Questions more central to the social fabric of our nation have returned to the heart of the political debate. By forcing this new discussion, OWS has made most of the other participants in our politics—who either didn’t want to have this conversation or weren’t able to make it happen—look pretty small.

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/152746/eliot_spitzer%3A_why_occupy_wall_street_has_already_won

I, for one, take offense to someone saying this is about envy - this is about a recognition of equity, fairness, justice, income distribution, and ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE ECONOMIC CATACLYSM which has cost people jobs, their homes, their security for retirement, their health care, and their LIVES (i.e. ADAP wait lists, etc)

I take offense that someone would say that the majority of people are "members of the middle - where most Americans are" - that must be why the Occupy movement has gone worldwide and continues to grow and is beginning to scare the shit out of those who for so long thought they had the "masses" under their control.

Glad to know that revolutions were not born out of apathy; they were not initially organized events surrounding an agreed upon destination - they were borne out of a dissatisfaction with the status quo and a  realization that things needed to change.

Of course, as long as there are still those that feel it is okay to be in the 99% (oops, that's right the 99% is mythical) --- then the wealthy will continue to feel that they have "pulled the wool over our eyes."

I for one have a severe eye allergy to wool.

Oh, and as for the mythical 99% and 1%, let's see:

"tentative projections -- based on the price of housing and stock in July 2009 -- on the effects of the Great Recession on the wealth distribution. They suggest that average Americans have been hit much harder than wealthy Americans. Edward Wolff, the economist we draw upon the most in this document, concludes that there has been an "astounding" 36.1% drop in the wealth (marketable assets) of the median household since the peak of the housing bubble in 2007. By contrast, the wealth of the top 1% of households dropped by far less: just 11.1%. So as of April 2010, it looks like the wealth distribution is even more unequal than it was in 2007. (See Wolff, 2010 for more details.)"

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.7%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2010).

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

-Phil (proud to be a vocal member of the Occupy movement not out of envy - as some would seem to want to tell me why I believe what  I do - but out of fairness, justice, and accountability - and at least some semblance of equity.)

--- Oh, and I also believe in providing citations to actually back up what I say - cause we know that opinions tend to be just like.....   ::)

September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline bocker3

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,374
  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2011, 05:15:30 PM »
First off -- I said "mythical" because, what is the difference between the 1% and the 2% (or 3 or 4)?  A dollar, a hundred ...  I was trying to point out that this division is arbitrary.  Why anyone finds that insulting, I don't know.

Now -- as I've said a number of times here and in other posts, if we are talking about reform, I'm with it -- we need reform -- heads should have rolled for the financial meltdown.  This, however, has nothing of real substance to do with the group of folks who make up the 1%. 

Now on to income distribution comment from Mecch.  I don't really follow  you --- Lady Gaga's $90 million is ok and doesn't need to be redistributed?  Income distribution comes down to wanting what someone else has -- which I why I say it looks like envy.  Is it actually -- hard to tell, as I don't know what they really want or how they would like income "equality" to come about. 

Let's get down to it -- if OWS wants reform, great -- state that.  If OWS wants to redistribute wealth, great -- state that.  The reason I said it appears as envy is because all I see and hear is people going after this arbitrary (better word??) 1%.  It makes no sense to me.

And phil -- I didn't site references because when it comes to economics, anyone can find a reference to back up any ol' thing they want to say.  I've studied enough statistics to know it and I've read enough articles to believe it.  So, yes -- I gave my opinion, if that isn't enough for you and you think it makes me and asshole -- so be it, ignore my opinions.  You can cite all the refences you want and someone could go find another that contradicts it. 

Finally -- I have to point out -- I am hearing more and more supports of OWS pulling out the "founding fathers" in arguments -- sounds a whole lot like what the Tea-Partiers did.  So, yes -- both are extremists.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,965
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2011, 05:37:14 PM »


And phil -- I didn't site references because when it comes to economics, anyone can find a reference to back up any ol' thing they want to say.  I've studied enough statistics to know it and I've read enough articles to believe it.  So, yes -- I gave my opinion, if that isn't enough for you and you think it makes me and asshole -- so be it, ignore my opinions.  You can cite all the refences you want and someone could go find another that contradicts it.  


Mike

Hi Mike:

I definitely don't think you are an asshole - as a matter of fact, I have much respect for you.  I just took offense to some of your depictions of the OWS movement and some semantics in the points  you were making ----

I caught that you are for reform -

I think that the Occupy movement is following the historical processes of any civil uprising and civil dissatisfaction movement - most of which have at one point or another been called "extreme."  As I recall, the members and supporters of ACT UP were called extreme.  Thank God for extremists - at least in this instance - as their extreme actions led to faster access to meds, increased funding and support for HIV/AIDS support and funding, and actually was part of the reason why Reagan and other politicians could no longer ignore the AIDS epidemic and make it appear to be mythical.

The problem with the use of the word extreme today is that it has been attached in a more heavily negative way in the past ten years to "Islamic extremists" and is associated with terrorists and those bent on negatively disrupting society and causing death and destruction to bring about their own agenda.  The word does not always have to have this meaning.

And, you are correct, that people can always (or usually might be a safer term to use) pull out citations and sources to substantiate their views, opinions, perspectives, and use of terms - but that does not eliminate the use of doing so, as it provides a basis for discussion and critical thinking, which can be used to further support or refute an argument or  point ---- otherwise, an artificial or unsubstantiated basis for discussion becomes existent - which does not encourage or promote dialogue (thus, the analogy to opinions being like assholes - not people being like assholes).

Once again, I have much respect for you -
I also continue to educate myself surrounding both sides of the issue - as I am a firm believer that "minds function only when open." --- I'm also a Libra - so that makes me prone to wanting to know both sides (the whole balancing of the scales, so to speak) a necessity.

FYI:  A great game to play and read about (I played it when I was much younger) that shows how those in power make rules that assure they will remain in power is Star Power.

From wiki: StarPower is an educational game for ages 12 to 25, designed by R. Garry Shirts for Simulation Training Systems[1] in 1969.[2] [3] The game combines chance and skill at trading to establish a score. Players are assigned categories based upon their relative scores, with the highest scoring category being able to change the rules. The game is designed to illustrate the behavior of human beings in a system that naturally stratifies them economically or politically.

Typical results

One commentator writing for the Sustainability Institute claimed that square players typically rigged the game to benefit squares, circles strove to become squares at which point they began to act like squares, and that triangles became angry and then apathetic, only becoming interested at the possibility of cheating or revolution. At the end of the game, the squares seldom see the oppression they engaged in while the circles are viewed as sell-outs by the triangles and as incompetent by the squares.[7]
Another commentator notes similar results. The squares create oppressive rules that make it difficult for lower groups to advance.[8] Lower groups turn to cheating.[9] The commentator also noted the lower groups becoming apathetic.[10]
The official site for the game lists eight lessons that StarPower teaches, mostly focused on the results of inequal distribution of power. [3]"

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarPower_(game)  )

Does the "typical results of the game sound familiar to what is going on in real life?"

Edited to add info about Star Power game rather than creating a whole new post.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 05:56:55 PM by phildinftlaudy »
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline bocker3

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,374
  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2011, 06:36:03 PM »
Thanks Phil -- I appreciate the post.

I, also, like to approach discussions with and open mind and always want to understand other sides.  Doesn't mean I will agree, but it's good to understand and accept that reasonable people can have differing opinions.

The current problem I have with OWS is very simple -- I don't know what it wants, aside from some very high level things like "fairness", "eqity".  What does that really look like?  Do the very wealthy have an obligation to help those less fortunate then they?  I believe that is a resounding YES.  Do those who have needs have the right to take it from those who have more -- well, through taxation, sure.  So -- if that is where we are heading -- why isn't OWS really ODC, specifically Congress and the White House. 

Given a choice -- I don't want to pay more taxes than I do today -- but if it's going to the right things, I would be willing to go along with tax increases.  Things like healthcare for all -- TEMPORARY help for those having hard times, etc.  I don't want it going to things and people that don't need it -- like corporate welfare, bridges to nowhere, etc.

By the way -- in my view -- an "extremist" is someone who is not willing to sit down and try to understand the other sides (and there are usually more than 2 sides).  Groups like ACT UP, certainly went to extreme measures, but I think they actually DID understand the other sides -- by doing so, they were able to pick tactics that actually worked.  I am very thankful for them and others like them.  Perhaps, someday, I'll feel the same about OWS -- if they actually start using tactics that will achieve whatever goals they develop.  Right now, I'm not able to see where they want to go in any real, tactical view.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,484
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2011, 06:58:45 PM »
People feel like they have been shafted.  Most people on the left have arguments and details to prove the way the poor and working stiffs have experienced a fall in their standards of living. And a feeling of having been robbed.
I don't think the OWS movement has an immediate need to articulate viable economic and political solutions to the feeling, that things have gone too far.  First the expression of outrage, then the looking for solutions.
People riot in Greece, France, England, Spain and elsewhere from a feeling that they are being shafted.  At least in the USA it has been nonviolent and non-destructive to date.  Shrink helped with all that...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 07:06:22 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,965
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2011, 07:03:49 PM »
Hi Mike:

Great post -
I think that a common complaint about the Occupy Movements (all thousand or so of them) has been that a clear agenda has not emerged in a concise, yet comprehensive manner, that can provide understanding, build a common linkage, and move forward to solutions.  However, that said, most movements in the past have started out the same way.  The colonists here in the states did not have a clear agenda, had several different issues that caused segments and fragmenting within the move towards revolution from England.

There are so many factors at play that have the "99%" feeling at odds with corporate America and the government - some are the inequities in laws (that allow a person to be imprisoned for taking an extra $50 in food stamp benefits that they may not have been entitled to, or that jail a ponzi schemer that defrauds individuals of money) but there has been no accountability nor criminality found in what corporate America - and namely the banks - have done to destroy businesses and lives.  The political system has become 100% financially driven (whoever has the most money gets to make the rules) and political campaigning now begins the day after one takes office, in preparation for the next election - with no real commitment to change for the common good.

Now, for my beliefs - which may strike some as odd - I support the OWS movement as a process movement (not necessarily in all of its current platforms or ideologies).  I think that the movement will be a good indicator of where we really stand as a society - and whether we are a nation of the people, for the people, by the people or whether or existence has become completely ruled by those with wealth.

I also don't want to pay more taxes.  As a single person who makes a fairly decent income, I pay more than 30% of my income (probably much more than 30%) by the time federal, sales tax, excise taxes, gasoline tax, etc. are added in.  I think there are many duplicate and unnecessary government programs.

I think many of the "entitlement" programs need to be reworked - yes, that includes social security, Medicaid, Medicare, etc. - these systems are definitely broken in many ways.

I think churches, synagogues, etc. could do more --- i.e. the only time you see church doors open is on a Sunday - the rest of the week they are locked up basically.  If churches would put more money and effort through service work, many issues could be handled that the government currently pays for ---- the way I see it, is the government is set up to separate church and state - thus, religious institutions are exempt from paying taxes, yet these same institutions want to influence government policy (i.e. gay marriage, abortion, etc.) - and the government allow them to have this influence -- so, they basically have their cake and are eating it too (you can't have it both ways - claim separation of church and state to be able to not be taxed, but then exercise church authority over government decisions, policy, and laws).

I think that those who make over a certain amount of income shouldn't have to put into social security, but they also should not be able to draw down social security benefits.  I think that there needs to be caps put on how long survivor's benefits are paid through social security and/or income caps for receipt of it.  

I think taxes should directly relate to services in many instances --- i.e. a car tax, tire tax, fuel tax specifically for roads, high speed rail; cable tv, entertainment tax for education expenses; alcohol, cigarette, marijuana, gambling tax for health care costs.  

The tax code definitely needs rewritten.  Does not seem right that Warren Buffett (and he admits this) pays a lower tax rate than his secretary.  Also, Earned Income Credit as currently written allows someone to contribute for example $1,000 in federal income tax, but receive a refund of $4 or 5,000 back (how does that work?  get back five times more than put in?)

So, while I am a registered Democrat - I see myself as more a a pragmatic Independent - that believe that the solutions to our problems are not going to come from one party or the other, nor from compromise among the parties (which we all know is definitely not going to happen - as our two-party system was directly developed to discourage compromise and encourage conflict - making it take time to pass laws and effect change - so, that change would not come on a "whim" at the disadvantage of the people or threaten the existence of the nation) - I solution will come from the creation of a new party that infuses Democratic, Republic beliefs, is not directed by corporate-money, but that can represent the majority in a manner that is inclusive of multiple viewpoints built on around a common goal - whatever that may come out to be.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline bocker3

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,374
  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2011, 10:58:41 PM »
Well Phil -- I have to say that you and I are probably very much in sync on most things here.

Although, I don't really think that the 2 party system was designed to thwart compromise or increase conflict.  There certainly was a checks and balance thing, but there is simply too much history of compromise.  There was a bit more of doing what's right for the country over doing what's right for the next election (not saying there was none, just seemed like there was more willingness to do what is right). 
What I think we are seeing now is that through gerrymandering and the party specific primary process -- there is a much greater need for candidates to appease the most hard-line folks of their party -- because they tend to me the most reliable primary voters.  So many House elections are now really decided in primaries, that the candidates who win are often the biggest idealogues.  I am in Eric Cantor's district -- there is no real opponent for him and the current redistricting plan is only making him more likely to hold on.
Frankly, I'd like to see elections change into a single "primary" for any and all candidates with the top 2 making it to the general election -- regardless of party.  Think about it -- had that happened in 2008, we might have had a Presidential election of Obama vs. Clinton and Palin would still be sitting in Wasilla bothering no one down here in the lower 48.....  This plan wouldn't necessarily stop the gerrymandering, but it might lessen the kow-towing to the far side of each party and end up with more moderate government.  The "compromise" is really needed from the voters at this point, because the politicians can keep getting elected by pleasing the most ardent party supporters.  We need to be willing to have shared pain to fix what ails this country.
Of course, we can't leave out the role of the media in our current situation.  Controversary sells and a never ending 24 hr news cycle MUST sell.  Now there is a big business that could use some reform -- they aren't there just to keep us informed -- they are there to earn money, keep investors happy and beat their competitor.
Anyway -- thanks for the discussion.... it has been enlightening.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline bocker3

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,374
  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2011, 11:11:12 PM »
People feel like they have been shafted.  Most people on the left have arguments and details to prove the way the poor and working stiffs have experienced a fall in their standards of living. And a feeling of having been robbed.

Yeah -- but people on right feel put upon for different reasons.  Reasons that are just as valid to them as the left's reasons are to them.  While I am far more sympathetic to the left's concerns, I get what some on the right are saying.  For example -- there ARE people, able bodied people, who would rather sit around and do nothing but suck on the government's teat.  It's not the majority, but there are some -- I know some personally. The left is loath to admit that.  Just like the right is loath to admit that the government HAS successfully helped people in real need who then were able to move on and be self-sufficient.

I don't think the OWS movement has an immediate need to articulate viable economic and political solutions to the feeling, that things have gone too far.  First the expression of outrage, then the looking for solutions.
People riot in Greece, France, England, Spain and elsewhere from a feeling that they are being shafted.  At least in the USA it has been nonviolent and non-destructive to date.  Shrink helped with all that...

And you have your right to think this -- but that doesn't help others, like me, who are lost on what it is they think should happen.  I tend to be a bit more pragmatic.  Being angry is not going to change anything.  It may be a first step, but if they want broader support they need to have a message and a plan.  Something more than "I'm tired of getting screwed".  That message isn't resonating with most of the people that I live and work with -- the message has to begin to crystallize.

M
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,965
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2011, 07:36:42 PM »
Occupy Wall Street: Most agree with dim view of financial sector, poll says

Most Americans share the “Occupy” movement’s dim view of Wall Street, a new poll shows.

A CNN/ORC International poll released on Monday reveals that the vast majority of those surveyed think Wall Street is filled with greedy, overpaid and dishonest bankers....

But while they may share many of the demonstrators’ views, just 32 percent of those surveyed told pollsters they have a favorable opinion of the Occupy Wall Street movement. Slightly less, or 29 percent, say they hold an unfavorable view of the movement, while 13 percent had no opinion.

Over a quarter, or 26 percent, say they have never heard of Occupy Wall Street...


Source and to read more:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66713.html
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2011, 07:45:29 PM »

I think they all should be arrested for trespassing, they've already over-stayed and worn out the welcome wagon, if OWS hasn't gotten there point across by now they never will, the Party is over KIDDIES, get job and Go home....
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline leatherman

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,143
  • Google and HIV meds are Your Friends
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2011, 07:48:08 PM »
get job
aye, there's the rub. LOL
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2011, 08:12:57 PM »
aye, there's the rub. LOL


Oh there is a lotta jobs, just not the high paying ones most young people want, they don't want to do back-breaking labor like I did, and ya know those types of jobs served me just fine, @ least I made an honest living doing them, all you needed was a weak mind and a very strong back, the younger folks don't want those kinda of jobs, they are too good for that.......
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline leatherman

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,143
  • Google and HIV meds are Your Friends
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2011, 08:52:37 PM »
Oh there is a lotta jobs,
I have to disagree with your supposition there. Maybe in your state, there may be lots of jobs; but not everywhere. SC is still suffering with an unemployment rate of 11% (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9QGQ9T01.htm). Quite often too the few jobs that are still open can either require skilled not manual labor, or they can result in underemployment issues.

here's an article that discusses how often job openings are only for skilled jobs and not jobs of manual labor
http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Article/MSN-2192-Job-Search-Available-Jobs-Not-Enough-Skilled-Workers/
not to mention that taking a less-paying job can result in "underemployment" which often is just as bad or worse as being unemployed (meaning it may pay some bills but not all of them nor provide health insurance)

In many places, there simply are NO jobs because the market has shrunk or businesses have contracted. here's a government doc (http://www.bls.gov/opub/ils/pdf/opbils80.pdf) that explains "Job availability during a recession: an examination of the number of unemployed persons per job opening".
Quote
As a labor market contracts, workers experience job loss and can have a difficult time finding a new job. Job availability declines because many establishments are forced to slow or freeze hiring and others have to go out of business. In order to remain in business, many establishments resort to layoffs and discharges to decrease the number of employees on their payrolls. Thus, the number of available job openings decreases and the number of people looking for a job may increase.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2011, 09:03:09 PM »
Well I wouldn't know anything about that, I haven't worked in well over 14 yrs. cause I don't have to, I've already paid my dues in the work force, but very interesting to say the least tho  ;) However I remember @ one time in my llife & had 2 full-time jobs, I actully left one, and went to another one, back in the late 80s & early 90s  ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,005
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2011, 09:42:28 PM »
I haven't worked in well over 14 yrs.

Get a job, lazy ass.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,705
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2011, 09:47:29 PM »


  RoboCop vs. Spiderman
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,005
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: What Percent Are You?
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2011, 09:53:26 PM »
Damn protestin' filthy hippies

"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.