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Author Topic: We are the 99 Percent  (Read 7500 times)

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Offline Denver Toad

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We are the 99 Percent
« on: October 11, 2011, 12:06:13 PM »
Very moving website put together by... someone who has a larger clue than I? Regardless...

I'm fascinated by the Occupy Wall Street movement. Found this site while digging around for info.

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/archive

Regardless of how one feels about Occupy Wall Street, I can't fathom not being moved by some of the stories and letters posted. As one currently unemployed, I can relate and empathize with many of the people. First time in my life with no job, no insurance, and little prospect of finding a comparable job.

Best part: Lost pounds as I've now time and energy to make it to the gym.

Worst Part: I've got a weeks worth of meds left. COBRA is stratospherically expensive and isn't happening. No clue where or how I'll get medical coverage.

Craziest Thing: I'm more at peace with life now than I've ever been. I give a shit about all that's happening but I'm truly nonplussed about it all in total. I'm understanding the saying "It is what it is."  
Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly,
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Offline leatherman

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2011, 04:51:26 PM »
COBRA is stratospherically expensive and isn't happening.
i've never understood how someone unemployed was supposed to pay for the huge cost of COBRA anyway. ::)

btw if you use this url (http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/5648_1170355502298_1330294064_30771441_951182_n.jpg) you'll have a pic in your profile. The URL you're using goes to the whole FB page. ;)

as far as #occupywallstreet, there are so many little wrongs (not to mention the big ones) with the government that I'm sure everyone can complain AND offer a solution for plenty of those issues.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


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Offline hope_for_a_cure

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2011, 05:04:21 PM »
i've never understood how someone unemployed was supposed to pay for the huge cost of COBRA anyway. ::)


Exactly !!! 


Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2011, 01:03:04 PM »
You're supposed to pay COBRA out of a savings account, the balance of which you've always budgeted for a (at minimum) nine month contingency in case you become unemployed. The same way you'd pay for your mortgage/rent and car payments if you became unemployed.

Of course, many working people do not do this because they didn't have a job that enabled them financially to do so. Or, of course, when they were working they didn't budget well for it -- such as buying a car that was too expensive or rent/mortgage that was too high, etc.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline hope_for_a_cure

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 01:27:45 PM »
You're supposed to pay COBRA out of a savings account, the balance of which you've always budgeted for a (at minimum) nine month contingency in case you become unemployed. The same way you'd pay for your mortgage/rent and car payments if you became unemployed.

Of course, many working people do not do this because they didn't have a job that enabled them financially to do so. Or, of course, when they were working they didn't budget well for it -- such as buying a car that was too expensive or rent/mortgage that was too high, etc.

In theory yes, this is true and very sound advice.  Unfortunately the harsh reality for most is that they do not do this.  Financial lessons are being learned the hard way by many and health insurance costs continue to rise. 

Personally, I felt a financial pinch a couple of years ago and had to sell the house that I could no longer afford.  Hindsight: I would have saved more for sure!

Offline leatherman

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2011, 03:14:17 PM »
when they were working they didn't budget well for it -- such as buying a car that was too expensive or rent/mortgage that was too high, etc.
I doubt anyone budgets for paying $100 a month for family health insurance coverage through their job to $1000 a month Cobra payment for the same coverage. :D

Much less for paying for a house and car while unemployed. Most people budget based on the amount of pay that they receive, in the belief that they will continue to receive it. If people believed that they might go unemployed for 99 weeks or longer, I doubt anyone would be buying cars or houses at all.

That's why I've never really understood the idea behind COBRA. It's a lot of money to gamble away for an uncertain future. If you were assured of moving onto a new job, then perhaps it would be good at tiding someone over. However, the reality is that after losing a job, for whatever reason, there is no assurance and that $1000 a month COBRA payment (for health insurance which you might not even have to use during your down time) could very well buy food or pay a mortgage payment for several months to keep you alive and housed until that next job.

Regardless, someone who loses their unemployment definitely risks losing their health care and risks losing a lot of money - with no more money coming in. It's a sad situation.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2011, 08:54:55 PM »
Good times! Man Run Over By a Police Scooter This Morning at Occupy Wall Street:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrzQedHM6SY

Also snapped this today for the protests in Filthydelphia though it's hard to tell that protesters and their tents go all around City Hall, which is very large building. From what I've read our protest are the third largest, after NYC and Boston -- larger than Chicago and LA.

Unfortunately I missed the fun when an hour later the Temple University College Republicans showed up to counter protest with signs that said "We Love Capitalism".

« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 08:59:06 PM by Miss Philicia »
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline mecch

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2011, 09:01:06 PM »
Best part: Lost pounds as I've now time and energy to make it to the gym.

Worst Part: I've got a weeks worth of meds left. COBRA is stratospherically expensive and isn't happening. No clue where or how I'll get medical coverage.

Craziest Thing: I'm more at peace with life now than I've ever been. I give a shit about all that's happening but I'm truly nonplussed about it all in total. I'm understanding the saying "It is what it is."  

How can you be sanguine, or calm.  Running out of drugs in one week. You are in the shit.  Stop going to the gym and being nonplussed if your head is buried in the sand about how you are going to stay healthy.  Sorry that's my not very polite response to your post.  I am wondering if you are smug, putting one on about your financial straights or simply have your head in the sand, and if its the last option, (which I guess is the best of the three) are you frozen in fear or really ready to face to have everything taken away from you because of unemployment and poverty?
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline WillyWump

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2011, 09:02:33 PM »
Good times! Man Run Over By a Police Scooter This Morning at Occupy Wall Street:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrzQedHM6SY


LOL! The cop is going 1/2 mph and the guy acts like he was just mowed down by a speeding freight train. The dude needs an Academy Award.

-Will
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 09:10:15 PM »
LOL! The cop is going 1/2 mph and the guy acts like he was just mowed down by a speeding freight train. The dude needs an Academy Award.

-Will

Leave it to an execution loving Texan to defend police brutality in the service of Big Business.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 09:28:43 PM »
LOL! The cop is going 1/2 mph and the guy acts like he was just mowed down by a speeding freight train. The dude needs an Academy Award.

-Will

In Miami he would have been shot and then black jacked to death....

5 years later a street named after him. 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Ann

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2011, 05:15:09 AM »
In Miami he would have been shot and then black jacked to death....

5 years later a street named after him. 

The guy did take at least one truncheon blow - you can see the truncheon on its upswing at 0.21-0.22 over the heads/backs of the crowd. Was definitely aimed at the guy on the ground.

Freaking cops. >:(
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Offline Andy Velez

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2011, 11:55:44 AM »
Meanwhile the revolution keeps popping out everywhere around NYC today. Students in Washington Square, another gathering in Tompkins Square Park and what is expected to be a big one in Times Square at 5pm.

Was just explaining to a complaining cab driver caught in traffic downtown yesterday, just why this is bound to be messy but that it's necessary as a part of the needed big changes. By the end of the ride he was looking at it differently. He works damn hard and deserves better than how things are now.

It's been a very long time since we've seen massive numbers willing to turn out on the streets like this. Really not since Vietnam. The Times today has an article in which various Wall Street execs mostly dismiss what's going on. That's just whistling to cover fear and not wanting to believe change is coming. I won't attempt to predict the direction of things but I don't see OWS as going away and I don't want it to.

The conversations in this thread speak to the absolutely unacceptable circumstances in which  too many are living. Will be heading to Times Square later with my son Ben. We are 99%ers.
Andy Velez

Offline Jeff G

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2011, 12:31:02 PM »
I'm cheering on the 99 % . Im really disappointed at the disparaging remarks leveled at the demonstrators , its as if the majority of Americans can only support protesters in a foreign country's who rise up to challenge social injustice .

The same remarks were leveled at the hippies and anti Vietnam war demonstrators in the 60's . History has proved that most of the things that the movement in the 60's stood for were right and worth marching for .      

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2011, 01:46:38 PM »
I don't completely understand the goal of these protests other than to express dissatisfaction with the status quo and raise awareness, and I don't suppose there really needs to be another goal. It seems that many of the complaints call for a redistribution of wealth and could be achieved through more socialistic government policies. However no one wants to actually say that. It reminds me of when "socialized medicine" became a dirty term and was replaced by "universal healthcare", which is essentially the same thing. So many Americans have irrational faith in capitalism and believe it is unpatriotic to suggest there might be a better way.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2011, 02:25:05 PM »
We are having an occupy event in Miami today - unfortunately, I won't be in attendance as it is my birthday weekend - so, I'm headed out in a bit for dinner and drinks with family and friends at Duffy's sports bar on the intercoastal.

I will say that this is going to be an interesting movement to watch evolve.  I think it is reprehensible that our government has no problem encouraging and supporting uprising of people in country's such as Egypt, Libya, China, and Iran - but let people protest here and we call out the police, lock people up and try to put down or suppress the protests (as they get larger, I would not be surprised to see the National Guard called out and maybe even curfews, etc. imposed).

This is a good time for people to get familiar with revolutionary process.  Remember, when the forefathers rose up against the tyrannical England (at the time) - they did not have a clear cut plan or agenda - they just knew that they were tired of the status quo and were not  going to stand for it anymore - there were no "clearly identified" leaders or clear organization --- it evolved into that (and without the benefit of cell phones, television, and Facebook or other social media).  When the Boston Tea Party was held it was a revolt against  the tea tax and having taxation without representation.  I think that while there is no forward plan to the Occupy movement, maybe no select leaders to it - it does represent people who are fed up with the status quo --- it is from these types of movements that revolutions are born.

Also, remember - revolutions are not supposed to be "comfortable" events - as they represent a radical change and part of the effect of a protest is that it is disruptive.  One of my friends said she didn't see a problem with protesters being arrested because they were blocking streets.  She said that she do it somewhere that is "out of the way."  Funny, how no one says these things when protests happen in other countries - I'm sure their lives get disrupted too. 

I, for one, recognize that when countries, cities, counties are millions and trillions of dollars in debt and when 99% of people are struggling to get by -- the $$$$$ didn't just disappear -- the actual cash is sitting in the hands of the 1% - and anyone who thinks differently, should then be able to explain where all these trillions of dollars (that are causing deficits across nations and across families and individuals) are.

Once again - a great time to read up on the revolutionary process - it provides a better perspective on where we may very well be headed --- uncomfortable? yes --- but needed?  definitely.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Cliff

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2011, 02:42:09 PM »
It's been interesting watching it from a distance, although London had it's first event today.  I'm not sure I understand it all, as the media focuses too much on the protest and not the policies behind it (if there are any), but I look forward to seeing the impact it will have on politics and policies.

G is right, gotta convince the middle class (not just the 1%) that it's in their interest to have less income inequality.  Tough sell but judging by the people protesting (I think), it's hitting the right spot.  

« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 02:43:54 PM by Cliff »

Offline Cliff

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2011, 02:59:41 PM »
Judging by the number of helicopters flying around London tonight, the protest must be a success.

Offline Jody

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2011, 04:34:49 PM »
So many good folks are suffering through a most difficult economy.  I have friends, relatives, and ex co-workers out of work and my neighbor who has a very nice young son in college just sadly informed me she was losing her job in December.  The company is moving to Canada where workers have national health care and operations will be cheaper.

I went to Zuccotti Park a couple of times recently after work as my union and others were there and was so impressed by the diversity of the good folks out there protesting.  The second time I went I brought a few Subway sandwiches for some of the folks who may have been hungry.  This cross section of the people from all walks of life was great to see.  We are not against business and entrepreneurs but just seek a truly fair tax system and economic justice for all, not just a powerful few.  

As Andy told the hard working New York cabbie and others have stated, people deserve better!  I can't complain for myself really but since being on this website alone we know so many of our loved ones here struggle so.  Look at the originator of this post Denver Toad and his job loss and having to try to buy Cobra for an exorbitant amount of money, unaffordable to someone who has lost a job, duh!  Even if we are getting by now we all worry about what the future holds and if the local, national and world economies can improve big time or really come crashing down.  

It seems to me as if the entire planet must work together to innovate new technologies, with people for instance working on building high speed monorails and trains, and getting air travel into the 21st century by making it two or three times faster and all the new technologies of phones, internet and so on can really put all of our people in good times again, it takes real experts to figure out the logistics.  Health care for all, birth control on demand and economic and political justice for all people everywhere are the goals of the Occupy crowd and that to me is valiant.  The internet has of course changed our planet forever.

In great hope for our future,

Jody

« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 05:00:17 PM by Jody »
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world".
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Offline mecch

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2011, 06:26:22 PM »
I don't completely understand the goal of these protests other than to express dissatisfaction with the status quo and raise awareness, and I don't suppose there really needs to be another goal. It seems that many of the complaints call for a redistribution of wealth and could be achieved through more socialistic government policies. However no one wants to actually say that. It reminds me of when "socialized medicine" became a dirty term and was replaced by "universal healthcare", which is essentially the same thing. So many Americans have irrational faith in capitalism and believe it is unpatriotic to suggest there might be a better way.

But the right says it now everyday on the news. That the protestors are Marxists and we should be scared of them.  So simple and silly.

I am American but living in Switzerland and when I joined this forum and talked about what its like here or in Europe, quite a number of people accused me many times of being unpatriotic, America hating, because I think a rich country, and the USA in particular, can do better providing a safety net for its citizens, on par with other rich countries.

I read a good and very sad analysis of the Right's reaction to the 99%.  Now I can't find it, but the gist was, the right made some websites with Mr and Mrs. Guy Next Door.  They talk about how hard they work, about not having insurance, about the constant anxiety, etc etc, and the right's spin is that these are heros, bucking up and struggling and not whining, it's the American Way. Work like a slave at barely comfortable living standards and have no security. Because any solution is "marxist" or European Socialism which is the upmost in EVIL.  

And the losers, the unemployed, the uninsured, it's there own damn fault, no relation to the growth of the the super rich.

It's all so appalling.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 06:27:59 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2011, 06:28:00 PM »
Occupy Wall Street has just, evidently, also taken over all of Times Square -- click here for a live cam:

http://www.occupystreams.org/item/occupy-wall-street-nyc
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline mecch

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2011, 06:34:56 PM »
This:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jpmoore/we-are-the-53-16-examples-of-the-conservative

“We Are The 53%”: 16 Examples Of The Conservative Response To Occupy Wall Street

in a nutshell  "Stop Whining, suck it up and God Bless the USA".

 

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Jody

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2011, 07:44:19 PM »
Andy should let us know if he is doing OK in Times Square...Times Square is stressful enough already without a major rally.  I hope elected officials and others will note how many good people care about the kind of real change that will benefit our great country.  But as to being in Times Square after dark Andy...A mother sits home and worries!!!

Jody ;)
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world".
 "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

Grateful Dead

Offline WillyWump

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2011, 09:06:09 PM »
 Can anyone explain to me in a couple sentences what the Occupiers want exactly? I'm getting confused with the signs "No Bank bailout" , "No corporate greed","No police and Teacher Layoffs" and today in San Antonio one sign read "Quest for Peace" and another banner read "Out of Afgahanistan Now",  and another "Legalize Weed".

I thought originally it was a push to tax the richest 1% of Americans?

-W
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2011, 09:13:17 PM »
I saw a sign that said "Death to Twinks!"
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline WillyWump

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2011, 09:17:01 PM »
I saw a sign that said "Death to Twinks!"

my favorite was "Shoot Sperm, not bullets"

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Offline ademas

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2011, 10:14:40 PM »
I think the message is muddled because the problem is so massive and fundamental.  Our system be broke, down to the foundation.

For me, this dude sums it up well, particularly the line, "...we've socialized losses, and privatized gains."



If both parties sat down together in the true spirit of bipartisan compromise, and tried to figure out a plan to screw over the 99% over the course of several decades, they would be hard-pressed to find a  more effective way than that which has already taken place.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 10:17:45 PM by ademas »

Offline bocker3

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2011, 12:46:57 AM »
What we need is to stop scapegoating.  we aren't going to get out of this mess by making the other guy pay for it.  the problem is not just the "1%" -- it's the majority.

We need more revenue, so tax the other guy more, but not me -- I pay enough / can't afford it.

We need to cut spending -- so cut "their" programs/benefits, but not the ones I need.

We all want something for nothing.

that is not to say that there isn't need for massive reform, but I don't see where this is going to get anyone where they want to be -- because I don't think anyone knows where that is.

It's easy to get folks to rail against others - much harder to get them to rally around goals.
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2011, 01:25:38 AM »
Can anyone explain to me in a couple sentences what the Occupiers want exactly? I'm getting confused with the signs "No Bank bailout" , "No corporate greed","No police and Teacher Layoffs" and today in San Antonio one sign read "Quest for Peace" and another banner read "Out of Afgahanistan Now",  and another "Legalize Weed".


Nation Waiting For Protesters To Clearly Articulate Demands Before Ignoring Them

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-waiting-for-protesters-to-clearly-articulat,26353/

NEW YORK—As the Occupy Wall Street protest expands and grows into a nationwide movement, Americans are eagerly awaiting a list of demands from the group so they can then systematically disregard them and continue going about their business, polls showed this week. "The protesters need to unify around a shared agenda with precise policy goals so I can begin paying no attention to them whatsoever," said Tulsa, OK poll respondent Kaye Petrachonis, echoing the thoughts of millions across the country. "If they don’t have a clear power structure organized around specific demands first, then I'll never be able to completely tune them out due to a political conflict of interest or an inability to comprehend complex, detailed economic concepts. These people really need to get their act together." Once Occupy Wall Street has a concrete set of objectives in place, the majority of Americans said they would go back to waiting for the sluggish economy to recover while blindly accepting things the way they are.

Offline edfu

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2011, 04:50:43 AM »
Can anyone explain to me in a couple sentences what the Occupiers want exactly?

Justice, fairness, true democracy, a political system that is not controlled by corporations and the wealthiest. 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline mecch

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2011, 07:15:33 AM »
Justice, fairness, true democracy, a political system that is not controlled by corporations and the wealthiest. 
That about sums it up.
If someone is confused by the signage, it is simple a "DADA" element in any intelligent movement. Any intelligent movement knows that things are relative.  Pure, hard-line movements with no dissent allowed, these are the dangerous ones.  The ones that say we are right and you are wrong. 

The signage is irreverent and irrelevant just to get a laugh but also serve to have an open mind, some irony.

I agree with Bocker in that it won't be productive to point fingers at the supposed guilty party.  For example the Take Back Wall Street don't have a great moral position to harrass the average bank employee on his/her way to work, unless that is only as standin, surrogate, for the banks and the executives and shareholders who demand the salaries, stock values, and dividends that the banks produced through "simulated" wealth creation. It is very easy to see how the average folks are compromised into the "evil doers" position. For example, if big banks that manage retirement funds buckle, then it will be average folks who are wiped out.

But it IS fair to say there are some guilty parties walking free, a few years after a massive fraud and immoral transfer of wealth.  I think Elizabeth Warren and Stiglitz above, do have a right to finger point. 

Sloppy unreasonable mob like finger pointing won't solve the problem but will raise the temperature that there needs to be a paradigm shift in rich countries away from this irresponsible financial system.  And also, in the US, we could educate people to expect a fair deal, on par with what a rich nation can deliver, and drop this vile divisiveness among people who are struggling to get a fair deal.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2011, 08:45:23 AM »
Justice, fairness, true democracy, a political system that is not controlled by corporations and the wealthiest. 

We don't have a "true democracy" -- never have.  It was designed as a democratic republic on purpose.  "True Democracy" has gotten us a whole boatload of "Marriage Amendments" across the states -- so I am in no way interested in such a set up in this country.

As for the political system being controlled by the wealthiest -- well, it's been that way from the beginning too -- how many of the founding fathers would have been considered part of the "99%"?  Not too many..... 

So, while reform is needed, spouting off sound-bite words like this is exactly why so many people don't get what the protest is about.  The reality is that the protest is AGAINST stuff it's not FOR anything.  If you want people to get onboard with change, you have to let them envision the future.

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Offline Jeff G

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2011, 09:36:39 AM »
My way of thinking about what social justice has always been a radical one .

One example of social justice would be that if you work a 40 hour week in a company owned by one of the 1% you should be able afford a motgage and have decent health insurance and comfortably raise a family before the people at the top of the company makes a 300 million dollar bonus or dividends are paid to the stock holders .

Another example of social justice would be that we wouldn't have to be forced into poverty if we become chronically ill in this country .

The 99% have said all along they are protesting for social justice . I think many Americans have a hard time figuring out in there own head what the definition of social justice is .

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2011, 10:22:16 AM »
I was surprised to read there was a "Occupy Greensboro" demonstration yesterday with 600 participants.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2011/10/15/article/600_march_downtown

Offline Joe K

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2011, 11:21:22 AM »
I think the OWS protesters are brilliant in their concept and execution of the protests, because they are not attempting to direct the conversation, but rather beginning to get people emotionally committed to a cause.  Given the way the media can "spin" any discussion, the protesters are refusing to try their case in the media and instead have taken it directly to the American public.  Protests have proved pivotal throughout our history and usually the most successful are those that first tap into public sentiment and then use that sentiment to set the tone of the discussion.

If I wanted to start a discussion among 300 million people, what better way than to simply rail against the machine and let each citizen decide on where they stand.  When you refuse to lead the discussion you empower people to join a national debate and by keeping it directly out of the media, people can draw their own conclusions.  The Boston Tea Party had the simple message of "No Taxation Without Representation", and the protests against the Vietnam war were expressed simply by "End the War" and look what happened in both cases.

By providing a focal point by protesting, Americans are starting to have a discussion that is long overdue.  For that discussion to be most successful, it needs to happen in every American home, separate from the influence of almost anything, but mainly the media and the pundits.  If you want to affect change, you start by drawing people together through emotions first, because then they have some skin in the game.  As more people share a given "belief" or "goal", no matter how vague, the stronger they become.  And once enough people become involved, supporting a shared goal, that's when the real fun starts.

Leadership does not always require someone to be "in charge", however you need a shared "vision".  Once you have that "Vision" and people actively supporting achieving it, how you get there becomes secondary to the desire to eventually get there.  It's amazing the diverse people you can get to work together, when they share a vision.  OWS is laying the foundation for a discussion about a "New American Vision".  Their job is to simply get people talking about the state of our country and where we want to go in the 21st Century.   

Offline WillyWump

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2011, 10:30:38 PM »
I think I found it...

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

I am Digging demand #1 - $20/hr minimum wage.

Also there is a cool Webcam on that site.


Occupy Seattle's demands seem a bit more reasonable..

http://occupyseattle.org/demands




.



« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 11:05:54 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2011, 11:28:47 PM »
I think I found it...

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

I am Digging demand #1 - $20/hr minimum wage.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

I shall begin retirement immediately.

Offline edfu

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2011, 01:57:35 AM »
As for the political system being controlled by the wealthiest -- well, it's been that way from the beginning too -- how many of the founding fathers would have been considered part of the "99%"?  Not too many..... 

Aside from the Southern slave-holders, which of the founding fathers accrued enormous wealth at the expense of the working class?  Adams?  Franklin?  Washington?  Madison?  Which of them came to political power because of their wealth and the overwhelming support of the merchant class (the corporations of the time) ? 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline edfu

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2011, 02:09:23 AM »
We don't have a "true democracy" -- never have.  It was designed as a democratic republic on purpose.  

Yes, but unless you are one of those who do not believe the Constitution is subject to modification, change, and amendments, you're stuck with the original Constitutional provision that only white male property-holders (10% of the population) could vote.  We've come a long way, baby.  Now, several hundred years later,  you don't have to own property, you don't have to pay a poll tax, you don't have to be white, and you don't have to be male. I'm sorry your vaunted "republic" has degenerated into the current  mob scene.  Perhaps you would be happier living in a monarchy.   
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 02:17:03 AM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline mecch

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2011, 04:07:36 AM »
I always imagine the "founding fathers" and first presidents were very intelligent, cultured, and committed men.  Of course, this is what we are taught and the image we receive, down through the ages.  I have never read a recent biography of any of them.

Imagine if they were a bunch of yahoos like the last couple of Republican Presidents, and maybe throw Obama in their too.  Bush Senior, Clinton, Nixon and Carter all seemed smart enough. Hehe, imagine discovering one of the founding fathers was more like a Nixon. I'm sure more than a few were as lecherous as Clinton!

Anyway, It is much to simple a critique of the OWS to say they are rich hating hooligans.

And the Tea Party are intellectually limited, classist and probably secretly quite often racist in their readings of a modern government based on an ancient constitution.

Their leaders (Perry, Palin) don't know jack shit about history. They seem to know a Disney history, Hollywood version, etc.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Theyer

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2011, 06:53:14 AM »
I am going to ST Pauls tonight,if its still on,I hope this grows .
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline bocker3

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2011, 09:43:48 AM »
Yes, but unless you are one of those who do not believe the Constitution is subject to modification, change, and amendments, you're stuck with the original Constitutional provision that only white male property-holders (10% of the population) could vote.  We've come a long way, baby.  Now, several hundred years later,  you don't have to own property, you don't have to pay a poll tax, you don't have to be white, and you don't have to be male. I'm sorry your vaunted "republic" has degenerated into the current  mob scene.  Perhaps you would be happier living in a monarchy.    
 

so do you always act so angry and unreasonable, or is it just on these forums??  Where did you come up with your asinine "monarchy" thought from what I said.  I'm not surprised that you can't quite get what I was saying, as it takes the ability to actually THINK.  You seem to just relish being an angry man.  In fact, it is folks like you that are a big part of the problem in this country.  You can't see any side of an argument except YOURS.  You can't even imagine that someone who thinks differently than you might have a legitimate view.  Nope -- to you the "other side" is evil and wrong and must be destroyed.  It is this very thinking that has gotten our political process into the current mess it's in.  You see, as I have said repeatedly -- REFORM IS NEEDED -- however, people like you are only set up for battle, not discussion and working for a solution for all.

For the record -- I would NEVER want to live in a "true democracy"  The tyranny of the majority would be worse than what we have today.  THAT was the point of what you quoted from me - of course, you conveniently left out the part that 'true democracy' led to many states passing Marriage Defense amendments -- but then it's not surprising that you did, as it worked against your position?

Mike

edited to remove some unnecessary name calling
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 10:00:41 AM by bocker3 »
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Offline bocker3

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2011, 09:52:06 AM »
Anyway, It is much to simple a critique of the OWS to say they are rich hating hooligans. 

You may be right -- but they aren't really giving us anything else to grab on to, now are they.  I've watched 3 marches this weekend in Burlington, VT and all they seem to do is rail against the wealthy 1% (of course, many of them are in school today -- attending the University of Vermont on mom and dad's $45,000 annual tuition checks).  There was a lot of chanting, alot of anger (a few instances of destruction of PUBLIC (not private) property), but no solutions.
Again -- being against something is easy, being for something constructive is a much tougher proposition.

Mike
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Offline denb45

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2011, 11:29:59 AM »

99% of what?   :D

I'm I rich and fit into this so called 1% NO
I'm I comfortable YES
Can I make my Rent/ Mortgage payment each month YES
Can I put Food on the table YES
Can I pay for my Car note every month YES
Can I buy clothing & shoes to wear YES
can I pay my Gas & Electric bill each month YES
Can I save some money and put a little away each month for rainy day YES
Can I buy anything I want NO, I'm on a budget
DO I live within my income means YES I do

if you answered NO to more than 4 or 5 of these questions your in serious financial trouble  ???
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline LM

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2011, 01:48:55 PM »
Marx must be laughing in his grave. Capitalism ain't working so well, huh? Well, that's the real world. I must say, Americans surprise me, though. I could imagine this kind of movement anywhere, not in the US. How funny it would be if it turned into a Socialist revolution...

Offline Denver Toad

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2011, 03:26:06 PM »
Killfoile said
Quote
If I wanted to start a discussion among 300 million people... .

There's the gist of what many see as the attraction with OWS. Well said, Thank You. The challenge becomes one of focusing all that is brought forth into positive change.

Mecch.... Either I communicated poorly or the message was lost on you.
Quote
I am wondering if you are smug, putting one on about your financial straights or simply have your head in the sand, and if its the last option, (which I guess is the best of the three) are you frozen in fear or really ready to face to have everything taken away from you because of unemployment and poverty?

Smug? No I haven't anything to be smug about. Putting one on about my financial straits? No, not putting one on with regard to finances. If you've questions re my finances ask, it's a challenging time and I'm open to advice. Frozen in place, fear etc... Again no. I'm being as proactive as I can. That's a whole new subject and one for a different thread. Let's just say it's been an eye-opener dealing with, and being shuffled from agency to agency by clueless administrators. I've received as many wrong and flawed answers as I've received relevant advice. I've certainly changed the way I view the system and what it asks of you. Regardless, I'm on top of it.

Don't assume I'm lackadaisical with regards to AIDS. I've been diagnosed since 2004 and understand what I'm up against. It would be foolish of me to think that somehow I'm immune to the insidious fate that awaits without treatment.

You said "I am in the shit". I disagree Mecch. I'm right where I'm supposed to be, learning what I need to learn, and fighting for what is important for me. It's in the acceptance of where/what is going on that I'm sanguine. I can't force ADAP to provide assistance. It will happen when they get their shit together and not until.

It is what it is Mecch, and no amount of gnashing teeth or pulling hair will change that. Therein lies the acceptance.


« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 03:29:16 PM by Denver Toad »
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Offline Buckmark

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2011, 03:32:53 PM »
...
You may be right -- but they aren't really giving us anything else to grab on to, now are they. 

They are giving many people an outlet for the frustrations and concerns, that they don't feel have been heard previously, by either the traditional media or our politicians.  Evidently that is something that a lot of people can grab on to. 

Quote
...
Again -- being against something is easy, being for something constructive is a much tougher proposition.
...

I don't think it necessarily happens in a neat, organized manner, whereby citizens congregate / protest, and then put together their list of demands / changes.  People have decades of pent-up frustration with a "system" that many think isn't working.  Change doesn't necessarily happen on any specific timeline, or follow a particular process.  I think we need to see how this continues to evolve.

Regards,

Henry

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     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
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Offline mecch

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2011, 04:43:17 PM »
Er, just to be clear, the UofV instate tuition is about 14,000.  All expenses including room and board add up to about 28,000.

"60.6 percent of full-time undergraduates receive some kind of need-based financial aid and the average need-based scholarship or grant award is $14,506."
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-vermont-3696

I got full tuition scholarships at some amazing universities. Not all students at swanky universities are rich. In fact, the swankier the school, the bigger the endowment, and the higher percentage of people who get through on smarts, not rich daddies.

Silly stereotypes don't help your argument.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2011, 04:53:20 PM »


Craziest Thing: I'm more at peace with life now than I've ever been. I give a shit about all that's happening but I'm truly nonplussed about it all in total. I'm understanding the saying "It is what it is."  

OK thanks for the clarification.  When I read the above it seemed you might be fatalisitic.  I still don't get why you you say you are nonplussed because in fact it seems like you will fight to get what you need. Listen don't ever let it go down to the bureaucracy has power over my life or death - cause if that is true, then ever more clever and aggressive fighting is called for, not "it is what it is".  That is the point of the OWS, my dear. Not accepting defeat at the the feet of vast powers and the status quo.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: We are the 99 Percent
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2011, 05:28:25 PM »
And mature people should think twice about vilifying young people involved in these OWS movements as layabouts, spoiled brats, or limousine liberals.

Affording college is not at all the same ball game it was just 25 years ago, and furthermore, they graduate to shitty opportunities and this crap timing can follow them a long long time.

http://nymag.com/news/features/my-generation-2011-10/

Being young is supposed to mean you have the luxury of time. But in hard times, a few fallow years can become a lifetime drag on what you earn, sort of the opposite of compound interest. Because the average person grabs 70 percent of their total pay bumps during their first ten years in the workforce, according to a paper from the National Bureau of Economic Research, having stagnant or nonexistent ­wages during that period means you hit that springboard at a crawl. Economist Lisa Kahn explained to The Atlantic in 2010 that those who graduate into a recession are still earning an average of 10 percent less nearly two decades into their careers. In hard, paycheck-shrinking numbers, the salary lost over that stretch totals around $100,000. That works out to $490 or so less a month, money that could go, say, toward repaying student loans, which for the class of 2009 average $24,000. Those student loans (the responsible borrowing option!) have reportedly passed credit cards as the nation’s largest source of debt. This is not just a rotten moment to be young. It’s a putrid, stinking, several-months-old-stringy-goat-meat moment to be young.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

 


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