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Author Topic: Man Has Stroke; Wakes Up Gay  (Read 11209 times)

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Offline Grasshopper

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Man Has Stroke; Wakes Up Gay
« on: September 22, 2011, 10:39:57 AM »

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2011, 11:59:52 AM »
Well he's happy with who is now, so that's good.
The whole way he went gay tips my bullshit meter but anything's possible.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Basquo

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2011, 01:24:13 PM »
My sister had a head trauma and her personality changed. It happens. Sometimes I think it just takes a knock on the head to bring out the traits that are really there but hidden deep.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2011, 03:55:59 PM »
It's not like he doesn't have the life altering credentials to back up his story, but yeah that's very odd.  I've known people who have had serious brain trauma and recovered and it either fucked them up or completely changed them.

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2011, 04:46:31 PM »
There was that lady who suddenly got a strange european but unspecific accent after surgery.
So what's Madonna's excuse for hers?

It's interesting what someone said - could bring out the deep hidden traits.  So that would mean this guy was a deeply repressed homo?  Hmm.

Well he seems cool about it.

But he said something interesting - that now he no longer has self doubts.  So does that mean he used to have self doubts when he was a straight lad?  Maybe it wasn't all that deeply repressed before, afterall..
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline thunter34

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2011, 04:49:31 PM »
I thought gay people were supposed to have good  hair.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2011, 04:53:53 PM »
If all it takes is a bump on the head to make you gay somebody would have already taken a 2x4 upside Brad Pitt's a long time ago .

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 04:59:27 PM »
Brad Pitt hasn't convinced me that he is a world class hetero stud.  Isn't he saying he was stoned and dull through his marriage with the convincingly hetero Jennifer.  And now with Angelina, that couple gives off no heat whatsoever, he seems like a trophy mate for her.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Jeff G

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 05:13:31 PM »
Brad Pitt hasn't convinced me that he is a world class hetero stud.  Isn't he saying he was stoned and dull through his marriage with the convincingly hetero Jennifer.  And now with Angelina, that couple gives off no heat whatsoever, he seems like a trophy mate for her.

Well ... I will buy the 2x4 if you will do the swinging . I could never whop a sexy man in the head ... with a board anyway . 

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 05:17:22 PM »
Maybe the blow will turn him into an uber hetero sex god. Then where will we be.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Jeff G

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 05:22:05 PM »
Maybe the blow will turn him into an uber hetero sex god. Then where will we be.

Having prison sex .

Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 05:28:01 PM »
Having prison sex .

You wish..............
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Offline anniebc

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 06:11:48 PM »
Having prison sex .

Between this and reply #6 you owe me a key board AND a new sweater, I spat then dribbled coffee all over the place... :D

Aroha
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 06:31:46 PM »
Between this and reply #6 you owe me a key board AND a new sweater, I spat then dribbled coffee all over the place... :D

Aroha
Jan :-*

I will gladly take you shopping anytime you like  :-* .

Offline wolfter

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 06:58:14 PM »
If they have some previous brain scans to compare the current ones to, they'd finally discover what part controls gayness?  Christ, I hope they don't throw research dollars towards a "cure".
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 09:00:41 PM »
If all it takes is a bump on the head to make you gay somebody would have already taken a 2x4 upside Brad Pitt's a long time ago .

roflmao. Preach sista

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Offline GusInJune

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2011, 12:07:32 AM »
If they have some previous brain scans to compare the current ones to, they'd finally discover what part controls gayness?  Christ, I hope they don't throw research dollars towards a "cure".

Interesting thought. I doubt he was counting on bumping his head and waking up desiring men. Raises some questions though.

Maybe since he had to relearn everything again as if he were a child, it may reiterate that early childhood, environment and development DO have an influence on sexuality later in life. I am personally not of the belief that sexuality is completely genetic, as some claim. Suppose things were different this time around (like the old "absent father/overbearing mother" theories) and he came out a different person because of what happened post-stroke, rather than the stroke itself. I'm not trying to offend anyone, certainly cannot ungay people, sexuality is not a simple thing. I'm gay myself.
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2011, 02:13:05 AM »
maybe since he had to relearn everything again as if he were a child, it may reiterate that early childhood, environment and development DO have an influence on sexuality later in life. I am personally not of the belief that sexuality is completely genetic, as some claim. Suppose things were different this time around (like the old "absent father/overbearing mother" theories)

I personally don't buy into the theory that parents are responsible for making children gay . It could be argued that if you believe that if your parents had character flaws that was responsible for you being gay that somehow being gay is a flaw of character because you wouldn't be that way if not abused or damaged in some way . I do not believe that as a gay man I am damaged goods so I would have a hard time excepting that way of explaining my sexuality . I don't really need an explanation for why I am gay , I just am and that's good enough for me .     
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 02:17:50 AM by jg1962 »

Offline GusInJune

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2011, 02:41:38 AM »
I personally don't buy into the theory that parents are responsible for making children gay . It could be argued that if you believe that if your parents had character flaws that was responsible for you being gay that somehow being gay is a flaw of character because you wouldn't be that way if not abused or damaged in some way . I do not believe that as a gay man I am damaged goods so I would have a hard time excepting that way of explaining my sexuality .     

I wasn't really trying to make it look that negative at all, truly I think its a mix of a lot of things, but I don't discredit any environmental/developmental influence.

Its odd, but I remember a time when I was VERY young (younger than 5), when I still had sexual attraction towards women. I would see nude women in movies by accident while we were watching a movie as a family that they didn't expect to have nudity, or I would steal my parents copies of Playboy, which they both read and had subscriptions to (still do, I read 'em as well, good articles). Let's just say the rocket would take off, even though I didn't know what was going on down there yet. I quickly became curious and then fascinated with the male body in the way I had been with women (simply cause I knew what a grown woman looked like, but what did a grown man look like?) and there was a longing for affection from a father figure (even though I had one that cared about me, maybe he lacked affection I don't know.) By the time I was 10, I had no interest in women left, I knew I was gay. None of that had really been my parent's fault.

Sorry if this is too graphic or whatever. I put thought into this stuff years ago but have never really had an opportunity to spit it out, interesting conversation is all I am seeking. I won't get mad if the mods wanna edit this. Child sexuality is something people sometimes don't want to hear about, I am trying to come at this from a psychology textbook standpoint, although I my knowledge of that is very basic, freshman college level. But I know for sure, that my sexuality has a lot to do with my early, pre-pubescent development. There's holes for sure, I can't tell exactly why I am gay, and I certainly have no clue why anyone else is. I think there is a possibility we are all born the same, neutral sexuality and it figures itself out into heterosexuality, bisexuality, or homosexuality usually a few years before we hit puberty.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 03:41:52 AM »
I personally don't buy into the theory that parents are responsible for making children gay . It could be argued that if you believe that if your parents had character flaws that was responsible for you being gay that somehow being gay is a flaw of character because you wouldn't be that way if not abused or damaged in some way . I do not believe that as a gay man I am damaged goods so I would have a hard time excepting that way of explaining my sexuality . I don't really need an explanation for why I am gay , I just am and that's good enough for me .     

Gus didnt say anything about character fllaws of parents, or bad parenting, or traumatic childhoods or that being gay is a problem.  He just believes Nature vs Nurture is too simple and it can be nature + nurture.   

If you are talking about gay bias by ignorant people, they usually don't blame bad parenting either.  It's the homo's poor choice to become gay, or even be born gay and have the nerve to act upon the feeling.  It usually comes down to the evil bad gay. 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2011, 04:20:14 AM »
Oh well, I think this nature vs. nature stuff is nothing but dripping intellectual masturbation.

I am certain that a person’s sexual orientation (wherever that maybe on the Kinsey scale) is 100% genetic/biological and is not affected in the slightest by external factors. The fact that they haven’t found rock-solid conclusive scientific proof of this doesn’t shake my conviction of this fact at all. 

External factors such as upbringing and culture et al however, certainly play a very strong role in whether and how much people ACT on those desires. So say someone who is predominantly hetero but more than incidentally homo, might never have been intimate with guys because of his own internal conflicts about sexuality stemming from external prejudices in society.

All this gay guys having overbearing mothers and distant fathers and other similar prattle is just BS- I know plenty of straight guys who had the most vile and aggressive mothers (very gay of me to make that judgment btw) and pussy fathers and are as straight as they come.

I always knew I was a little different even as a 7 year old kid and the reason became blindingly obvious some years later when I had wet dreams of hairy-chested men instead of petite women with squishy boobs.

The guy in the article was probably always a bit queer and came up with this very original head banging sexual orientation transformation theory, which is way too innovative to have been conjured up by a straight man in the first place.

But may be I’m wrong, since British tabloids are held in such a high regard for their thorough checking of facts & research and are known to never concoct tales.

 

 
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Ann

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2011, 09:27:08 AM »

 I won't get mad if the mods wanna edit this.


Why would we? When Tim Horn asked us to be mindful of what we post, he was mainly talking about posting or linking to sexually graphic photos - gratuitous stuff. We did try to explain that our discussions about sex and sexuality won't be affected (unless of course what you're posting is a graphic description of what you did in the dark room of a bathhouse last night, purely for the purpose of titillation). This is a site that is always going to have discussions of a sexual nature, due to the nature of the virus.

I think it's an interesting conversation.

They have done studies on identical twins who were separated at birth and adopted by very different families from very different economic and social backgrounds. I wonder if they ever looked at sexuality in these studies and if they did, what were the outcomes? Something to google in my spare time.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 09:31:16 AM by Ann »
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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2011, 09:28:45 AM »

But may be I’m wrong, since British tabloids are held in such a high regard for their thorough checking of facts & research and are known to never concoct tales.


Yeah, and a pig just flew over my house and landed in the back garden. He said "what drugs is that Space dude on? I want some!" ;D
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2011, 10:14:08 AM »
There are two sets of identical twins in my city with one brother gay and other hetero.

Incidentally, they are gorgeous men....  One of the reasons so many people know about them!
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Ann

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2011, 10:45:14 AM »
There are two sets of identical twins in my city with one brother gay and other hetero.

Are they mirror twins?
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2011, 10:48:45 AM »
Identical, yes.  Look the same.  Is that what "mirror" means.
Mirror would be appropriate for a gay/straight set, cause when you look in the mirror you see yourself backwards. Haha.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Ann

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2011, 11:16:07 AM »
Mirror twins are identical, but one would be right-handed, the other left-handed. One might have a cowlick on the right side of the head, and the other would have it on the left side of the head. That's what made me think of mirror twins when you said one was gay and one was straight.

It happens when the egg splits a bit later following conception. (rather than in the first 24-36 hours or so)
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2011, 11:40:44 AM »
Wow I never heard of that category of identical twins. But come to think of it, you are on to something.  I know one of the sets, so I'm going to ask.  They are identical but it seems yes, they may be mirror images.
I knew another set gay/straight on my college campus years ago.  Identical but different personalities.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2011, 11:56:13 AM »
Yeah, and a pig just flew over my house and landed in the back garden. He said "what drugs is that Space dude on? I want some!" ;D

Some great ganja from up in the Himalayas, Ann.  ;D
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Ann

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2011, 12:04:23 PM »
Some great ganja from up in the Himalayas, Ann.  ;D

Trying to make me jealous, eh? I'll get you, my pretty!
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2011, 12:06:10 PM »
They have done studies on identical twins who were separated at birth and adopted by very different families from very different economic and social backgrounds. I wonder if they ever looked at sexuality in these studies and if they did, what were the outcomes? Something to google in my spare time.

I have read about this a long time ago, and indeed, if one of the twins were gay, the other was much more likely to be gay as well, even if he were raised in a different environment. So it proves sexuality cannot be entirely based on the environment.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:07:42 PM by LM »

Offline anniebc

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2011, 07:00:42 PM »
I will gladly take you shopping anytime you like  :-* .

Great!!! Can I get Designer Labels at Wal-Mart?... :D

Aroha
Jan :-*
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2011, 07:06:19 PM »
Great!!! Can I get Designer Labels at Wal-Mart?... :D

Aroha
Jan :-*

No ... you have to get the designer labels at another store and sew them in yourself  ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 07:08:03 PM by jg1962 »

Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2011, 08:54:45 PM »
Bullshit!! I don't buy the deep down traits either.

This is my theory - The guy had an accident and he thought that he could have died or say then he realizes life is too short to hide or suffer so he becomes what he always was. “ GAY”. He probably was some sort of "pre in-denial" which is a theory (made up) when people don't even know they are gay before the denial stage but others know he/she is gay. I don't think he even was bi sexual may be 10%-20% otherwise he would still be attracted to girls. He did not want to hurt his family so he is blaming the stroke for him being gay using that as an excuse.

My conspiracy theory - Anything could happen. like the lady who have completely changed her accent (well for that I thought there were some changes on the vocal cord or something or whatever ). As for conspiracy theory- it hardly ever exists.

I wish I had 'that' stroke 7 years ago! Damn newspaper even selling this story, I am reading it and writing it about. There you go. Attention! yaa that's a drama queen needs. Perfect for being gay ;D

**Edited to change the wording about the conspiracy theory from never to hardly ever ;)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 02:55:29 PM by Since2005 »

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2011, 03:13:56 AM »

 He probably was some sort of "pre in-denial" which is a theory (made up) when people don't even know they are gay before the denial stage but others know he/she is gay.

"Pre in-denial"? That's quite dramatic too. lol

How can anyone not know what they're attracted to??! You always know, the fact that you avoid it, evade it, suppress it, conceal it and deny it is another matter.

Are there people who are in in denial about preferring chocolate ice cream over vanilla ? 

You either prefer chocolate or vanilla or like both. Simples.
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2011, 03:55:23 AM »
Wow I've missed a lot.

I think being gay is combination nature and nuture first off.  Where most gay men always say they knew they were gay from a very early age that was not my experience.  I actually was very much interested in women until about 14 or 15 at which point I became fascinated with men.  As a previous poster pointed out they were having wet dreams about men I distinctly remember having wet dreams about women.

As for twins, I know that Leslie Stahl did a segment for 60 minutes in which she interviewed a pair of twins raised together who were heterosexual/homosexual.  She also pointed out that there is an increasing chance of homosexual occuring in sequentially born male right-handed children.  It's been documented in a lot of research on the subject.  Funny enough left handed male children do not have anything aside from the typical 2% chance to be born gay.  I find this odd because I know a LOT of left handed men who are gay which I suppose is coincidence.

Back to the original subject matter do you really think this guy was just waiting on his chance and then had a traumatic accident and stroke meanwhile plotting the whole time to come back as gay?  They basically said this was an immediate change once he recovered consciousness.  I really doubt anyone is thinking about their chance to come out of the closet as a result of a horrific incident.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2011, 05:10:59 AM »
I understand that not everyone knows they were gay right from the start but I really do think that a person’s ‘true’ & ‘original’ sexual desire (strict interpretation of that term) is intrinsic and innate to that person and is biologically fixed. Prior to puberty, the pendulum may swing little bit to the left or right end of the spectrum but once one matures into an adult things solidify. It’s similar to how a lot of children are ambidextrous but later become either left or right handed. I am convinced that just because sexual feelings manifests for some people slightly later does not in any way mean that something in their upbringing etc. had something to do with it. Prior to puberty kids are curious in every sense and discovering one’s sexuality is just a part of that and doesn’t mean anything more than that. One sees very effeminate gay men having very butch straight brothers and they had a similar childhoods.

Nurture, however, can have a very profound effect on how people perceive themselves and if and how much they act on those desires once they are adults.  Not everyone is born a 100% rigid homo or hetero. I also think that every gay person has a little bit of a straight side and every straight person has a little bit of a gay side but that doesn’t change that they are primarily on one side of the fence or the other (with the exception of pure bisexuals which are very rare according to research, especially in men).

I was in a relationship with a girl for over a year and did really like her a lot. I did enjoy our sexual relationship for a long time, but after a while I realised that I couldn’t continue like that forever, something felt a bit wrong. Had I never explored my gay side at all and just swept my feelings under the carpet, I reckon I could have convinced myself that I was much more straight than I actually am. At a purely sexual level, I think I am predominantly gay but a little more than incidentally hetero.

I like to compare it to the chocolate and vanilla example. Say someone prefers chocolate to vanilla, he can’t help that he does, but he does. But say for some reason there is no chocolate available and he doesn’t care at that point because he is having a craving for ice-cream, any ice cream. So he settles for vanilla. It’s not chocolate but it’s still an ice cream. After having vanilla for a long while, he realises- well this isn’t so bad after all. In time he even learns to like it. Over a longer time he thinks well I am beginning to like it almost as much as chocolate. He stops missing chocolate. But somewhere deep down the craving for chocolate is still lingers.

The mind is very powerful and can trick you into something you’re not, even subconsciously, but that doesn’t mitigate the fact that he was born to eat chocolate and not vanilla.

I think, this sort of thing explains situations where gay men (particularly in non-western cultures) who previously slept around a lot with other men end up marrying women due to family pressures and seem pretty happy, at least on the face of it.

But having said all of that, I also do think that sexuality when viewed on a much wider canvass is quite complex. I know of some people who are genuinely not very sexual, and do place much more weight on the ‘person’ than the sex of that person. So even though such people may be intrinsically gay (if sexuality is viewed narrowly like I said above), they are capable of falling in love with someone from the opposite sex because of the personality that they find so attractive. Things like that person’s smile and laughter become much more arousing than whether they have a cock or cunt.

Moral of the story: There is no right or wrong answer and I have way too much time on my hands to have typed all this out!!  Fuck. LOL
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2011, 07:30:02 AM »
I was 50/50 until New Wave music. Kajagoogoo, Spandau Ballet, Culture Club, Bronski Beat, and company waged a ferocious mascara'd and sequined battle with the horny, testosteroned Rock and Punk to tip the balance rather permanently toward gay.  Boy George did it.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2011, 11:39:36 AM »
Not everyone knows he/she is gay that's why we use the term bi, gay, curious etc. I did not know I was gay till very late. Well, I am a late bloomer. God, I didn't even know how to masturbate till I was 14/15! I did not know I was gay till I came to USA, which was late teen/very early twenties, and I waited to have sex for the first time in my life when I was 23! And, then sex was way too easy :)

So, some people know they are gay when they are very young and some people really don't' know (due to deeply suppressed traits which I like to call as 'pre in – denial’ stage). Nothing is so dramatic about it. Some people just don't know till they know and then they try to deny it and then accept it or keep denying it or hiding it. It all depends. I do believe that people are born gay/bi/straight. Some just know and/or act on it sooner than others. Some just keep denying it for the entire lifetime. Some just would never know (it happens in very very deeply suppressed culture). I know while I was growing up some were called  ‘confirmed bachelors’ and society accepts them, never question them if they are gay as I recall in some society they don't even accept the term ‘gay’. Remember the president of Iran came to USA and said they never have gay people in Iran! Funny thing was that year the Mr. Gay Canada was from Iran who was studying in Canada.

So, whatever reasons it may be, some people go through phases (like Hellraiser was saying he did not know if he was till 14/15 and myself I honestly did not know if I was gay till freshman year in college. I knew I liked dick and I liked to watch porn or whatever but I thought I always gonna get married like the rest of the people I knew). Then, I knew I was gay and acted on it and went through my ‘denial phase’ and now working on terms to accept it ‘fully’. So, we can't pin point a single line. Everyone is different and everyone goes through different stages. It's pretty shallow to say people know if they are gay when they are 5 just looking at your own example. I would try to think everyone is different and everyone goes through different phases (some just don't go through phases and it could happen) and everyone is going to handle it differently. I, do, however, believe that people are born gay/straight/bi whether they act/accept or deny the fact.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 03:05:38 PM by Since2005 »

Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2011, 12:26:34 PM »
I do believe there's some genetic factor at play, but the environment is also very important. Remember, in Ancient Greece, gay sex was commonplace. If gay sex were accepted as completely normal by society today, many more guys would do it. Humans are very sexual creatures, we get aroused with lots of things. So I believe we are intrinsically and potentially bisexual, but some genetic and especially environmental factors "forces" us to take sides. If I didn't like women so much, I would have to accept I'm gay, because If I got a dime every time I heard someone saying bisexuals didn't exist...

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2011, 01:13:22 PM »
Just joking about New Wave and the coming out timing.
I was fascinated by Bowie in the 70's.  I had crushes alternately on boys and girls from elementary school on.  It never occurred to me in Jr. HS or HS I could actually have sex with boys.  I was happy to have girlfriends and fool around with them.  I guess 18 is "adult" for a lot of American guys of my generation so I just figured at 18 I had better start pursuing the boys.  Then I transferred to a college where it was very trendy to be bi so it was pretty easy and figured out soon enough I preferred guys and was basically gay and had been "performing" being hetero, because for me it hetero relations were pleasant enough and the path of least resistance.

I have heard all sorts of realisations stories so I think we can accept anything is possible, though not common.  Even a knock on the head.

I had a professor of human development in college who claimed his life long research led him to suspect men on men sex was quite related to the sense of smell and hormones role in physical attraction. (Thanks, Madonna.)  He didn't know about female homosexuality.  And "homosexual" or "gay" are social constructs, ways to act, not genetic "sexual orientation" which does not exist.  The genetic just makes queer boys either really want, or be ok, with doing other boys.   

As many of us know the "identity" of gay or "homosexual" is not universal or the same in all cultures.  But there is male-male sex in all cultures.


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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2011, 02:36:37 PM »
Since2005- I am saying the same thing as you are, that people are 'born' with whatever sexual preferences they have. I never said I knew I was gay at 5 or that anyone does, I said I knew I was a little different from other boys and the reason for that became clear later in life. I am of the view that a person's sexuality is as unique as your finger print and you are 'born' with it.

And about 'pre-indenial' maybe we misunderstand each other cos I am saying the same thing as you. One always knows deep down inside whom they are attracted to but they may convince themselves otherwise due to external pressures which in turn create internal conflicts so deep that it can colour their perception of what they find attractive- especially in sexually repressive cultures.

And I totally agree with the ancient greece example that if being gay wasn't viewed as being 'less of a man' as it is in many cultures and had society's stamp of approval you'd see a lot more bi-curious etc guys acting on their desires. Conversely, a lot of guys (especially in smaller towns and villages) of India, Pakistan, etc who would be labelled as 'gay' in the West cannot ever imagine themselves being 'romantically involved' with other men (or so they like to project) although they enjoy sex with them. They see nothing wrong with separating homosexual desire from their role of a man in society- which is to marry a woman and have a family.

'Gay' as a sexual identity in the western sense is a fairly alien term outside of the big cities in South Asia. Like Mecch said there are many non-westernized concepts of male sexuality- which usually try to draw a boundary between romantic attraction and physical attraction for the same sex. It facilitates a 'sitting on the fence' type mentality which seems to suit everyone, - that is until western notions of 'sexual identity' and 'gay identiy' start finding appeal and popularity through globalistation. ;)

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Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2011, 02:57:08 PM »
And "homosexual" or "gay" are social constructs, ways to act, not genetic "sexual orientation" which does not exist.  The genetic just makes queer boys either really want, or be ok, with doing other boys.   

I think that "sexual orientation" is a misnomer -- it is more about "affectional orientation".  Yes, I am attracted to men sexually, but, to me, being gay is about who you are attracted to and who you are "wired" to fall in love with -- for me that is other men.  It always raises the hair on my neck when I see others constantly equate being gay to the sexual side of it.  Could I have sex with women?  Sure -- I could and I have -- but I have never been "in love" with a woman -- only with men.

So -- my genetics don't make me "ok" with doing other men -- it has wired me to be attracted to other men -- sex being just one part of that attraction.

Mike

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Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2011, 03:34:10 PM »
I think that "sexual orientation" is a misnomer -- it is more about "affectional orientation".  Yes, I am attracted to men sexually, but, to me, being gay is about who you are attracted to and who you are "wired" to fall in love with -- for me that is other men.  It always raises the hair on my neck when I see others constantly equate being gay to the sexual side of it.  Could I have sex with women?  Sure -- I could and I have -- but I have never been "in love" with a woman -- only with men.

So -- my genetics don't make me "ok" with doing other men -- it has wired me to be attracted to other men -- sex being just one part of that attraction.

Mike



From this perspective, then I'm straight. Cool.  :D

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2011, 03:41:10 PM »
I am the similar to LM, being gay for me has always been much more a raw sexual, physical thing than an emotional thing- but the two are obviously not mutually exclusive- they are linked and do interplay.

If you take the sex out and reduce it to cuddling it defeats the purpose of being gay according to me. Sex is the best part.  ;)

According to me, or at least for me, homosexuality is first and foremost about sexual attraction and the affectional orientation part is  a logical consequence of that.
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Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2011, 04:28:59 PM »
And about 'pre-in denial' maybe we misunderstand each other cos I am saying the same thing as you. One always knows deep down inside whom they are attracted to but they may convince themselves otherwise due to external pressures, which in turn create internal conflicts so deep that it can colour their perception of what they find attractive- especially in sexually repressive cultures.

We have and we are still... See, we are still talking about two different things. having sex with men and being married with a women one thing and that would fall into 'denial stage' because at this point the person has already known the fact that he is gay ( sorry lesbians I am referring from a male perspective ;)). That I have gone through that in my denial stage as I thought its not biggie to have sex with men and I will eventually get married with a women when times comes. However, be sure to get this point. I have had stage when it NEVER occurred to me to have sex with men. At this point, I was feeling nothing about men. I didn’t know what to think about sex with men ( its very possible due to suppressed cultural issues or it may not). I would like to use Meech example for this –
I had crushes alternately on boys and girls from elementary school on.  It never occurred to me in Jr. HS or HS I could actually have sex with boys.
It never “ occurred” to me either to have sex with men (hey I was made believe to not have sex with women before marriage forget about men). So, I know I had a stage ( may be kinda like the guy in the article that we are talking about possible deeply suppressed traits). Growing up, I was never attracted to my friends because they were my friends. Everyone acts/reacts to things differently that’s the point that I am making and it may or may not be due to cultural issues. So, after my ‘Pre in –denial’ stage, I entered into ‘denial stage’ and at this point I knew I was gay and that’s where I used ‘the cultural dilemma’ for not being able to accept it.

Pre – denial stage – Nobody to blame cuz you are not even aware of the fact that you are gay but other may notices. Hey I always wondered about the few actors if they are in their ‘pre in denial’ stage ;D

Brad Pitt
George Clooney
Tom Cruise and many others..

Denial Stage – You are aware of the fact that you are gay and at this stage you are denying it.

Could I have sex with women?  Sure -- I could and I have -- but I have never been "in love" with a woman -- only with men.
Mike
Mike you are so gay  :)  But, honestly, I cannot have sex with women. It never works for me. That’s the whole point, we all are different and ‘wired out’ differently.

If gay sex were accepted as completely normal by society today, many more guys would do it.
– I agree and I think we would have seen more ‘bi curious’ guys around!

I wondered about this – if someone is not able to be attracted to male emotionally but sexually ‘not gay’ or ‘in denial’ or ‘pre in denial’ where you don’t even know you are denying it, something that one needs to work out with some professional help and then figure it out. I know I got through some of my stuff by just taking with my shrink and things started to make more sense when I was dealing with my ‘in denial’ stage.

Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2011, 04:34:41 PM »
From this perspective, then I'm straight. Cool.  :D

I was thinking about that too:).. Well, you could be 'not gay not straight' someone who have sex with men and use them as an object like a lots guys would do  :)..... about you,  I am joking... :)

Though, I do believe, that the way you are feeling that has anything to do with your way of looking at it. Because if you just say you are attracted to men sexually not emotionally then what would make you? and why not? May be then you are more straight and less gay and according to Mike you are straight. but wonder why is that 'cool' being straight? --- I am kidding.. or Am I? lol..

LM, I am actually kidding. I really don't know. I had a bi friend in college who had a son when he was young and he always told me that he is never attracted to male emotionally but is very attracted to them sexually, I have always wondered why and why not and I believe these issues one always needs to figure out himself or herself.

Again we all are different like your fingerprints (as Space mentioned) and there is no set rule or guidelines that we need to follow to stereotype anyone, that's the way I see it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 04:55:01 PM by Since2005 »

Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2011, 06:45:54 PM »
– I agree and I think we would have seen more ‘bi curious’ guys around!

That's why I agree with Kinsey's findings. In the 1950s, he found that around 50% of married men had had at least one sexual act with another man. That's a LOT. And in prison, gay sex is everywhere. I think society makes us more resistant toward that, so many guys would enjoy sex with another man, but they block out the idea because of cultural reasons. I mean, it's ridiculous a guy saying "two men kissing are disgusting". If he were any comfortable with his sexuality, it shouldn't bother him at all. But that's living in society and its rules.

=
Though, I do believe, that the way you are feeling that has anything to do with your way of looking at it. Because if you just say you are attracted to men sexually not emotionally then what would make you? and why not? May be then you are more straight and less gay and according to Mike you are straight. but wonder why is that 'cool' being straight? --- I am kidding.. or Am I? lol..

That's why I say being a bisexual male is very complicated. Gay men usually treat it as if it was just the same, but it's very different. But I thought it was funny that, after having sex with plenty of men, that I would be straight in someone's eyes.

Anyway, I agree that it may have to do with my way of looking at it. I do believe the ideal match is a man and a woman. Not for everyone, but I think that our differences makes us even, if you get what I mean. So I may block that idea of having an emotional attraction for another guy because of that, though it's not intentional. I have liked some guys, but nowhere near anything you would call love. And I've fallen in love with a few women. And many, if not most bisexual men feel the same way, for many reasons, I believe. That is also why so many (most, actually) are in the closet.

It is very complicated. Although I like many aspects of enjoying both men and women, I wish I were just straight, or even just gay. Life would be much simpler.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2011, 08:30:12 PM »
I have to say -- this "pre - in - denial" crap is ridiculous.  If you aren't aware you're gay (or bi, or str8) then you are simply unaware.  If you are suppressing or pretending to be something you aren't -- that is denial.  I just don't get where this idiotic made up term comes from.
Personally, I don't get how anyone could be unaware of their orientation -- but that is me and I'm very open to NOT being the model for all others.

Also -- for all you folk who equate being gay with the physical/sexual side, what happens to you if you become impotent?  Are you no longer gay?  What are you then??  The point I was trying to make, is that being gay is MORE than sex.  If I had my balls cut-off tomorrow -- I'm pretty damned sure that it would not end my feelings toward my partner.  I love him and would still love him even without sex.  After 21+ years, we have more than just sex that binds us together.

Mike
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Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2011, 09:04:10 PM »
Also -- for all you folk who equate being gay with the physical/sexual side, what happens to you if you become impotent?  Are you no longer gay?  What are you then??  The point I was trying to make, is that being gay is MORE than sex.  
– Is someone having enough sex? I wonder why would he be crabby otherwise  ;D please follow below -

I have to say -- this "pre - in - denial" crap is ridiculous.  If you aren't aware you're gay (or bi, or str8) then you are simply unaware.  If you are suppressing or pretending to be something you aren't -- that is denial.  I just don't get where this idiotic made up term comes from.
Personally, I don't get how anyone could be unaware of their orientation -- but that is me and I'm very open to NOT being the model for all others.
Good to hear - Some people are unaware of their sexuality what can I say. Stupid made up terms are supposed to be idiotic. Me and my friend used to play this game to classify some 'straight/straight acting individuals' and it was funny. Hmm.. this one is 'in-denial'.. that one is ' pre in-denial' , this one is straight acting etc. However, I have to say watch your tone and  especially that’s coming form someone who is a Grandfather of 5! Glad you said you are not to be model for others especially can't write with good manners at times! "Crap", "Idiotic", guess one word for you what a "....." (there are 5 dots in here please fill in the gap. I wish I could have spelled out the whole word). If I could make myself clear, usage of these types words/tones doesn’t go too far with me. Stay the F... away.

That's why I say being a bisexual male is very complicated. Gay men usually treat it as if it was just the same, but it's very different. But I thought it was funny that, after having sex with plenty of men, that I would be straight in someone's eyes.
ROFL -Its funny! Based on someone's definition you are straight! When I read it I laughed my ass off! Opps ;)

Not for everyone, but I think that our differences makes us even, if you get what I mean. So I may block that idea of having an emotional attraction for another guy because of that, though it's not intentional. I have liked some guys, but nowhere near anything you would call love. And I've fallen in love with a few women. And many, if not most bisexual men feel the same way, ..
It is very complicated. Although I like many aspects of enjoying both men and women, I wish I were just straight, or even just gay. Life would be much simpler.
You are right! It may be hard for me to get as I cannot put myself in someone else’s shoes. I just wondered is all. About love, I don’t think I could ever fall in love with anyone. Its actually sad. I want to but either I haven't met the right person or I am too selfish. I was never in love with anyone. So, I have always wondered how is that feeling of being loved or to love someone. Hey, at least , you are lucky that you have been able to fall in love with some people regardless of the gender. I could understand a bit though why bisexuality could be harder than being gay or straight.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 09:33:05 PM by Since2005 »

Offline wolfter

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2011, 09:35:25 PM »
– Is someone having enough sex? I wonder why would he be crabby otherwise  ;D please follow below -
Good to hear - Some people are unaware of their sexuality what can I say. Stupid made up terms are supposed to be idiotic. Me and my friend used to play this game to classify some 'straight/straight acting individuals' and it was funny. Hmm.. this one is 'in-denial'.. that one is ' pre in-denial' , this one is straight acting etc. However, I have to say watch your tone and  especially that’s coming form someone who is a Grandfather of 5! Glad you said you are not to be model for others especially can't write with good manners at times! "Crap", "Idiotic", guess one word for you what a "....." (there are 5 dots fill in the gap. I wish I could have spelled out the whole word). If I could make myself clear, usage of these types words/tones doesn’t go too far with me. Stay the F away.


What an inapproriate response to one of our most respected and loved members here.  I certainly hope you post an apology or you'll lose a lot of credibility with the "seasoned" members. 
productivity breeds content

Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2011, 09:55:54 PM »
What an inapproriate response to one of our most respected and loved members here.  I certainly hope you post an apology or you'll lose a lot of credibility with the "seasoned" members.  

"Seasoned members"... Yaa try to gang up on me now!

I have responded the way I would have responded to anyone who just joined yesterday! I have mentioned times and times "craps" , " idiotic" and such tones and words are not to be used in forum conversation. To me, it never works! I have made myself clear on that and I have not used such words. Again, I can not help how people control their emotions when they write but I however have the right to respond.

You may not fall into that ‘seasoned category’ since you have joined last year I believe(?) not sure and just to be clear, speaking of 'seasoned members', I have tremendous respects for them and I have said that numerous times in very many fashions and showed my gratitudes towards their contributions to this forum.

YOU, please don't try to play it out! I am not having this conversation with YOU.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 10:31:03 PM by Since2005 »

Offline wolfter

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2011, 10:01:13 PM »
I didn't read the new policies about the newest members dictating what words are "allowed" to be written.  Peace out while I wait for the other responses. :o
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Offline anniebc

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2011, 10:38:14 PM »


 I have mentioned times and times "craps" , " idiotic" and such tones and words are not to be used in forum conversation. To me, it never works! I have made myself clear on that and I have not used such words.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying so just help me out here, are you saying it's OK  to respond to a member like this?

guess one word for you what a "....." (there are 5 dots in here please fill in the gap. I wish I could have spelled out the whole word). If I could make myself clear, usage of these types words/tones doesn’t go too far with me. Stay the F... away.


So asking members to fill in the dot's and a putting in a Capital "F" is OK?

Jan
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 10:40:04 PM by anniebc »
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Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2011, 10:49:32 PM »
No its not! I would say the least I have not started. I have not said the words but I may have implied those words. So, yea based on my advice, yes, I am wrong and I sure am sorry that I had to imply anything such. Not anyone can make you do anythiing so sure I take responsibility for that.

However, I will ALWAYS respond to anyne regardless of their status of the membership (without implying anywords) that I feel has demeaning tone.



Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2011, 11:30:30 PM »
speaking of policies

[cough]

We would like to remind everyone at this time to use the "Report to moderator" link rather than respond to inappropriate behaviour yourself. If you choose to send a moderator report, please know that the reports are strictly confidential and only seen by the moderators. If you wish to have feedback on any report you send, please say so in the report.

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Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2011, 11:33:42 PM »
No its not! I would say the least I have not started. I have not said the words but I may have implied those words. So, yea based on my advice, yes, I am wrong and I sure am sorry that I had to imply anything such. Not anyone can make you do anythiing so sure I take responsibility for that.

However, I will ALWAYS respond to anyne regardless of their status of the membership (without implying anywords) that I feel has demeaning tone.




Listen sweetie,

I standby by calling the use of the term pre-in-denial as crap and idiotic.  Why, because, until you told me about how you made it up while judging others, it sounded like you thought it was a real thing.

The difference between what I said and your response to me (other than my english is easier to understand) is that I didn't call anyone a name or swear at anyone.  You called me an "asshole" and told me to "fuck off".  I'm a big boy, I can take it.  What I find interesting is that anytime someone has an issue with a post of yours, you get a little bit "on edge".  You like to claim that you are being provoked and won't have "that" conversation with anyone else -- but you have a few such entries through these forums.  It simply shows that you have a temper that you can't seem to control and/or your comprehension of the english language is as poor as your ability to write it.  You might want to talk to someone about the temper thing though -- it could get you in trouble some day.

Oh -- one more thing - please leave my grandkids out of any further of your diatribes.

Mike
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Offline wolfter

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2011, 11:49:45 PM »
Thanks Mike, I couldn't figure out what A word was being eluded to.  Isn't that 6 dots? ;)
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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2011, 02:25:07 AM »
Since2005, why do you throw a tantrum and reduce to name-calling when someone disagrees with you ? There is a way to disagree without getting personal. This is a public forum and there will be divergence in views/opinions, just deal with it. There is a very clear difference in saying that something a person wrote is ridiculous/stupid and calling someone names.

Bocker, I agree that being gay is more than sex. It is for me, definitely. I am saying that 'sexual attraction for the same sex' is what makes you gay- affection, enjoying compay of other gay men etc etc are added on top of that. If someone is not aroused by someone of the same sex at a purely physical level then affection, love etc is no different to a platonic kind of friendship. I feel deep affection and love for some of my girl-friends but I could not have sex with them.

If a man gets erections for (or is aroused by men, if he is impotent) other men and not for women (or not nearly as much for women), he is gay in my book- even if he marries a woman and never touches a man for his enitre life. It is that primal, I think.

And I agree that this 'Pre-in-denial' theory is plain ridiculous. After puberty, a person knows for certain to whom and how much they are sexually attracted. If they suppress it or deny it or whatever it is just that they are in denial. At that point, I also don't buy that someone can be 'wholly unaware' of their sexual inclinations.
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Offline GusInJune

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2011, 04:33:51 AM »
Lol @ everyone gettin' mad. If you're arguing then you've already lost. Didn't mean to start some flame war, but that usually starts with folks not knowing how to read properly, being unable to take a joke, or confusing fact with opinion, also factoring in a lack of life and serous need for socialization.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2011, 06:42:54 AM »
Since said "pre in denial" was just a made up word.
Its not complicated to figure out who it would apply to.
"In denial" - you know something but you deny you know it.
Pre - in denial.  You don't know it yet, but you are destined to eventually know it, and then deny it.

I dont see where he said it is deeply thought out psychology.  

In Freudian psychology there was the idea of "repression" which was unconscious impulses and feelings.  So that is not "denial" - which in the Freudian scheme is "suppression".  And if you look at someone and say "he's gay but doesn't even know it, and won't accept when he knows it" - that would be "pre in denial"

But theres no proof for Freud's theories anyway. We all know that.

Hey Since, Yes you are right to notice some members here routinely use offensive or vulgar language, or are very aggressive and abrasive how they respond to others.  Don't respond in kind.  (Sotto voce!)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 06:49:14 AM by mecch »
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Offline Ann

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2011, 09:04:28 AM »

"Crap", "Idiotic", guess one word for you what a "....." (there are 5 dots in here please fill in the gap. I wish I could have spelled out the whole word). If I could make myself clear, usage of these types words/tones doesn’t go too far with me. Stay the F... away.


Since, you don't get to use "a......" to get around the fact that we do not allow name-calling on this forum.


I have not said the words but I may have implied those words. So, yea based on my advice, yes, I am wrong and I sure am sorry that I had to imply anything such. Not anyone can make you do anythiing so sure I take responsibility for that.


Nice try. You didn't "imply" the words, you just left out some letters. You even said you "wish [you] could have spelled out the whole word". Your intent was pretty obvious.

Mike never called YOU "crap" or "idiotic" - he called your phrase "pre-in-denial" those words. Big difference. Huge, in fact.

A very intelligent, pillar-of-the-community type person can say or do things that are crap or idiotic, but that doesn't mean the person is crap or idiotic or that the person is being called those things. I hope you can see the difference.

Since, I don't want to see you name-calling again. You can criticise a person's actions or words all you want, but you cannot use those actions or words as a reason to call a person names. Got it? Good. Consider yourself warned.

Ann
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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2011, 09:50:42 AM »

Personally, I don't get how anyone could be unaware of their orientation -- but that is me and I'm very open to NOT being the model for all others.


Hmm.... it's a grey area for those who end up identifying as bi.

I agree with your statements about how being gay or straight is so much more than who you have sex with. It can be pretty confusing for an adolescent when you find yourself emotionally, romantically and sexually attracted to both sexes and it can take years to figure out what's going on.

Personally, I am rarely sexually attracted to anyone before I've gotten to know them and formed an emotional bond with them - in some cases, you might say "however fleeting". For myself, I can just as easily become emotionally and romantically attracted to women as I can men - the key is in their personality, not what is in their knickers.

I view people as people first and foremost (what I see first is a person, not a man or woman), but I don't know whether that view is a result of my attraction to both sexes or if the view caused the both-sex attraction. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? All I know is that my mind has worked that way ever since I can remember.

Because society mainly expects us to be straight, with the only other possible way of being is gay, it can take some time for a bi person to figure out what orientation you're going to land on.

Growing up, I had very strong romantic attractions to three of my girlfriends that I never acted on because I knew it wouldn't be accepted. I came very close with one (in sixth grade - I wanted to smother her in kisses), but she sensed it and started ignoring me and calling me a lezzie. It really hurt. During this time I also had romantic attractions to boys, but those I could freely act on, so obviously they were predominate.

The first time I openly formed an attraction to another woman was in college. I had gone to an all-women's bar with my sister (who is a lesbian). I'd gone to this bar with her many times before, but this time a woman sat down next to me while my sister was dancing and we started talking. My sister was gone for ages and we covered a lot of ground. I'd talked to quite a few women on these expeditions to that bar, but this one was the only one I "clicked" with.

We really hit it off - there was a real connection between us. We had so much in common and I felt like I was floating on air. She was funny and had a knock-out smile. (I can still see her to this day!) I was smitten and I think the feeling was mutual. Talk about somersaults - my stomach was doing them, in a nice way. Very nice way. :)

She was (I think) just leaning in for a kiss when my sister appeared behind her, shouting "that's my sister and she's straight!!!" I said "how the hell would you know?" I was mortified, and so was this other woman. She also seemed to be afraid of my sister, because she got the hell out of there. I was devastated. I went to that bar many times after, but never saw my dream woman again. :(

Anyway, for years I mainly pursued relationships with men, because it was easier. It took a long time for me to start re-exploring relationships with women. It took a long time for me to embrace being attracted to women - and men.

Sexual orientation is just not cut-and-dried when you're bi.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2011, 01:08:30 PM »
Perfect post, Ann.

I actually found out I was attracted to guys while visiting New York, when I was 13. Freaking gay city, lol. Maybe if I had never gone there, I would be straight. Anyway, I was at the Virgin store, if I'm not mistaken, looking around the videos and stuff, and by mistake I ended up in the gay section. I was surprised, I had never seen that, and when I saw what it was about, I got really scared and just left there in a hurry. But I couldn't take that off my mind. By the time I was taking a shower at the hotel room, I was already thinking of having sex with other guys.

It was very difficult to accept that. First, because I had a Christian background, and I didn't know gays even existed. Sure, I had heard of them, in jokes, but I had never really imagined they existed. And finally, I was still attracted to girls. At least emotionally speaking. So it was all very confusing. I knew I was sexually attracted to men, but I didn't know if I was sexually attracted to girls. I looked at girls, they were beautiful and stuff, but to a shy teenager like me, they were like a nine-headed dragon ready to eat you up. They really intimidated me, so I really didn't know.

And of course, according to "society", if you get aroused by men, you're gay and that's it. So this "pressure" on me was difficult to handle. I still have gay friends who turn their eyes in disappointment when I say I'm going out with a girl. And then they say: "you're still doing that?". To some of them, I am just fooling myself going out with girls. So all the time I had to ask myself "what am I? Just gay, or do I like women as well?".

I was confused for a long time. Had my first time with men, and enjoyed it. Years later, had my first time with a women, and I was very shy, so it didn't work out very well. I could say I was aroused at the moment, but it didn't convince me I was attracted to girls. Finally, when I was around 22, I met my ex-girlfriend and we had sex. When we finished, I thought to myself "ok, so I am indeed sexually attracted to women as well". Only then I was convinced.

But it's still confusing at times. For example, there is a number of guys I know who would like to have a relationship with me. Well, maybe now with HIV they wouldn't be so willing, but I don't know. One of them, especially, is a great guy. He would surely be much better to me than my ex-girlfriends were. Yet, I don't have feelings for him. I like him, he's great, but no butterflies. What can I do?

My shrink jokes with me that I'm kinda masochistic, since I only end up liking people who hurt me in the end. But in a way, aren't we all? Once I told her that while I wanted to be monogamous in a relationship, I feared if I could really do it. I mean, could I be with one girl and not go out with any other guy, or even another girl, for the rest of my life, or vice-versa? So she put her hand on my shoulder and said: "Do you know how many people come to my office saying that? Welcome to the real world".

So we paint the world in straight, gay or even bi colors, but human sexuality is so complicated that to limit it to simple labels ignores its myriad subtleties in terms of behavior and feelings. That's why sometimes I wish I were simple, and be just your average straight boy, or as gay as I could be. And that's why I believe many potentially bisexual people usually repress their weaker side to make things more simple.

Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2011, 05:15:48 PM »
My shrink jokes with me that I'm kinda masochistic, since I only end up liking people who hurt me in the end. But in a way, aren't we all?

Nice post LM.

About the above, er, no.  I know lots of people who are not masochistic in matters of love.

Also, with experience, you get wise to the little games you or others play about yes, no, wanting the one who doesn't want you, or isn't very nice, and vice versa.  So once you see that, you can avoid setting traps for yourself, or stepping into those set by people with messed up intimacy issues.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2011, 02:25:50 AM »
Since, you don't get to use "a......" to get around the fact that we do not allow name-calling on this forum.
I did not try to get around, I  just did not want to go to the lowest by calling names out loud. It would be something calling someone ‘f you’ instead of ‘fuck you’ out loud. Here, I am making my points not calling names just to be clear. I said I did not want to go to the lowest but I did go lower.

Nice try. You didn't "imply" the words, you just left out some letters. You even said you "wish [you] could have spelled out the whole word". Your intent was pretty obvious.
 
When I said I implied I meant that ‘to mean it’. Yes, you are right about my intention which was to call names without spelling it out not due to “get around” rather not to be at my worst behavior. I hope you got my point.

Mike never called YOU "crap" or "idiotic" - he called your phrase "pre-in-denial" those words…

I do not agree to this. If someone’s behavior is idiotic then at that time it implies that the person is being an Idiot. A crapy person would talk like craps, stupidity behavior implies the fact that the person is being stupid. To me, that’s what those words imply. Regardless, anyone can find the demeaning tone by noticing the usage of these types of words. It is vulgar, its abrasive, its aggressive. There is no justification to use these words like stupidity, craps, idiotic etc to criticize anyone. I believe they who (luckily only handful of people) continuously use those words also should be criticized at least to acknowledge the fact these choice of words shows disrespects to other members. People who tend to use these types of words so often to criticize others would never get any respects from me now or ever unless they stop using these words. I believe one has to “earn” the respects from others. I am sure I have lost a lot respects for not following my own advice.

Consider yourself warned.
Fair enough. My intention was to call names. It’s not the word that was suggested earlier. Regardless, it does not matter as I did mean to call names. I did not spell out the words for whatever reasons but I did mean to say it. I have already admitted that I was wrong ( reply # 54). So, I do deserve that (not that you have asked for any opinions but I wanted to let you know where I stand).

Since, I don't want to see you name-calling again.
Neither do I. I acted out wrongly. I did bring myself to a lower level. I do not want to see myself there again.

I will try to follow what Meech has suggested..
 

Hey Since, Yes you are right to notice some members here routinely use offensive or vulgar language, or are very aggressive and abrasive how they respond to others.  Don't respond in kind.  (Sotto voce!)
If someone goes low I should not go lower. Calling someone names is out of my character, I was not able to control my emotions, and I acted out wrongly. I am sorry the way I behaved and I am apologizing to all the forum members for my action.

**Edited to correct spelling & grammar..


« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 03:35:04 AM by Since2005 »

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2011, 02:41:36 AM »
I did not try to get around, I  just did not want to go to the lowest by calling names out loud. It would be something calling someone ‘f you’ instead of ‘fuck you’ out loud. Here, I am making my points not calling names just to be clear. I said I did not want to go to the lowest but I did go lower.
When I said I implied I meant that ‘to mean it’. Yes, you are right about my intention which was to call names without spelling it out not due to “get around” rather not to be at my worst behavior. I hope you got my point.

I do not agree to this. If someone’s behavior is idiotic then at that time it implies that the person is being an Idiot. A crapy person would talk like craps, stupidity behavior implies the fact that the person is being stupid. To me, that’s what those words imply. Regardless, anyone can find the demeaning tone by noticing the usage of these types of words. It is vulgar, its abrasive, its aggressive. There is no justification to use these words like stupidity, craps, idiotic etc to criticize anyone. I believe they (luckily only handful of people) continuously uses those words also should be criticized at least to acknowledge the fact these choice of words shows disrespects to other members. People who tend to use these types of words so often to criticize others would never get any respects from me now or ever unless they stop using these words. I believe one has to “earn” the respects from others. I am sure I have lost a lot respects for not following my own advice.
Fair enough. My intention was to call names. It’s not the word that was suggested earlier. Regardless, it does not matter as I did mean to call names. I did not spell out the words for whatever reasons but I did mean to say it. I have already admitted that I was wrong ( reply # 54). So, I do deserve that (not that you have asked for any opinions but I wanted to let you know where I stand).
Neither do I. I acted out wrongly. I did bring myself to a lower level. I do not want to see myself there again.

I will try to follow what Meech has suggested..
  If someone goes low I should not go lower. Calling someone names is out of my character, I was not able to control my emotions, and I acted out wrongly. I am sorry the way I behaved and I am apologizing to all the forum members for my action.


Oh wow ! Since2005, do you launch into a diatribe with your door-knob if you can't peel potatoes with it ?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 02:45:34 AM by spacebarsux »
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Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2011, 03:21:24 AM »
I stand by what I said (reply #65). Its pretty clear what my apology is about and what my intentions are going forward. I do not want to drag this any further. I believe I said my piece.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 07:48:00 PM by Since2005 »

Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2011, 07:59:36 AM »
I do not agree to this. If someone’s behavior is idiotic then at that time it implies that the person is being an Idiot. A crapy person would talk like craps, stupidity behavior implies the fact that the person is being stupid. To me, that’s what those words imply. Regardless, anyone can find the demeaning tone by noticing the usage of these types of words. It is vulgar, its abrasive, its aggressive. There is no justification to use these words like stupidity, craps, idiotic etc to criticize anyone.

I probably should not waste my time with you, however, I'll try to reexplain what I said earlier and what Ann said to you.
I did not call you or your actions stupid -- I called your made-up word stupid.  If you personalize that, well, that is YOUR problem and not mine.  Step back and think about this.  I was talking about a word or phrase, NOT you, NOT your behavior. Although, your behavior around this discussion leaves quite a bit to be desired. 
I'm quite shocked that your argument with a moderator went unanswered, the fact remains, that I was speaking about a word -- I give very little thought to you, as a person.  Your inability to hold a rational discussion without feeling victimized is something I find tiring.

M
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Offline Ann

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2011, 08:22:42 AM »

I'm quite shocked that your argument with a moderator went unanswered,


I just get tired of beating my head on my keyboard all the time. Going by Since's response, anything further from me would most likely have been met with more excuses. Why talk to a brick wall? Life is too short to argue with someone who isn't listening.

At the end of the day, his warning still stands - despite whatever excuses he can come up with.

As you say, if he wants to be a victim, more power to him. Not my problem - or yours, for that matter.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Since2005

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2011, 08:39:52 PM »
Ann - Whether we agree or disagree, I have tremendous respects for you. I wanted to make this clear and I have and always will appreciate your support!!

Two months that I have been here, I have seen the same people keep using these words towards others. I could show dozens of them with examples just from last two months. So. for them,

this is what I said and this is where I stand -

Regardless, anyone can find the demeaning tone by noticing the usage of these types of words. It is vulgar, its abrasive, its aggressive. There is no justification to use these words like stupidity, craps, idiotic etc to criticize anyone. I believe they who (luckily only handful of people) continuously use those words also should be criticized at least to acknowledge the fact these choice of words shows disrespects to other members. People who tend to use these types of words so often to criticize others would never get any respects from me now or ever unless they stop using these words.

At least, I am adult enough to say sorry when I am wrong. Prove me wrong stop using such vulgar words!

With this, I am leaving this thread. I have wasted enough time on this.

Offline Raf

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2011, 09:54:52 PM »
This thread proves that the somersaults are bad even for the forum members  :D
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Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2011, 12:34:07 PM »
I think I did a somersault in my sleep. My neck is killing me...

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2011, 01:33:20 PM »
I think I did a somersault in my sleep. My neck is killing me...

LOL

Thanks for that. This thread needed to lighten up. More LOL
Andy Velez

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2011, 07:29:00 AM »

Personally, I am rarely sexually attracted to anyone before I've gotten to know them and formed an emotional bond with them - in some cases, you might say "however fleeting". For myself, I can just as easily become emotionally and romantically attracted to women as I can men - the key is in their personality, not what is in their knickers.


Ann, I agree with most of your post except this para, I feel ,is inaccurate in as much as it applies to bisexual men.

I agree that a lot of Bi, Bi-leaning women lay emphasis on the ‘person’s personality’ over the sex of the person. Maybe some bi men do, but I think they are very few and far between.

For most guys, gay, straight or bi, visual stimulus and pure physical craving for a man or a woman (depending on whether they are gay or straight) and the resulting urge to gratify that desire is deeply entrenched. It is innate and intrinsic. I would even go as far to say that it is biologically predetermined and fixed. That, in my opinion, shapes how gay or straight a man is.

The personality, affection for the person and everything else hinges on that very basic sexually driven nature. I honestly don’t believe that a truly bisexual man can be 100% monogamous with one or the other sex without making some sort of trade-off and exercising a degree of self-restraint.  

If you like chocolate and vanilla, you will never be wholly content with just one.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 07:35:05 AM by spacebarsux »
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2011, 07:38:10 AM »
Ann, I agree with most of your post except this para, I feel ,is inaccurate in as much as it applies to bisexual men.

I agree that a lot of Bi, Bi-leaning women lay emphasis on the ‘person’s personality’ over the sex of the person. Maybe some bi men do, but I think they are very few and far between.

For most guys, gay, straight or bi, visual stimulus and pure physical craving of a man or a woman (depending on whether they are gay or straight) and the resulting need and desire to gratify that desire is deeply entrenched. It is innate and intrinsic. I would even go as far to say that it is biologically predetermined and fixed. That, in my opinion, shapes how gay or straight a man is.

The personality, affection for the person and everything else hinges on that very basic sexually driven nature. I honestly don’t believe that a truly bisexual man can be 100% monogamous with one or the other sex without making some sort of trade-off and exercising a degree of self-restraint. 

If you like chocolate and vanilla, you will never be wholly content with just one.


I think you are trying to cast how you feel about sex onto everyone.  Frist -- Ann's post can't be "inaccurate", as she was stating her experience (note how she started off with "Personally,".
Second -- I am a gay man and I don't always need to satisfy my sexual needs in order to move on to personality and affection.  I went out with my partner for close to month before we ever had sex -- it actually did make our physical connection better that we had an emotional connection.  Now, don't get me wrong, I am quite capable of having a purely sexual encounter with a man -- so, you aren't "wrong" about that need.  However, I will say -- none of the relationships that I had in the past that began with a sexual encounter lasted very long -- but my partner and I have now been together for 21 years.  Not saying that is true for eveyone -- but it IS true for me.

Mike
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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2011, 07:45:45 AM »
I think you are trying to cast how you feel about sex onto everyone.  Frist -- Ann's post can't be "inaccurate", as she was stating her experience (note how she started off with "Personally,".

Point taken. I meant to say that her experience applies more to women than men, in my opinion.

Edited to add: Mike, what I am casting on everyone regarding gay sexuality is that we're gay cos we prefer men sexually to women. We prefer cock to pussy. That's what makes us gay. Above all else. It is that basic.

It is not that we find men's personalities more appealing than women or something on those lines, if there even is such a distinction.

In my opinion, what caused you to 'fall in love' with your partner first and foremost is the fact that he is a man, the attractive personality comes next. it is a logical corollary.

This is my unbending view on male sexuality. lol
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 08:03:10 AM by spacebarsux »
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Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2011, 12:08:50 PM »
I honestly don’t believe that a truly bisexual man can be 100% monogamous with one or the other sex without making some sort of trade-off and exercising a degree of self-restraint.  

If you like chocolate and vanilla, you will never be wholly content with just one.


And I told that's bullshit. To be monogamous is difficult for everyone. We never stopped being attracted to other people and everyone needs to exercise self-restraint. Read again what I said about my conversation with my therapist. What you said about bisexual men is what straight men and women alike ask themselves all the time as well.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2011, 03:34:51 PM »
And I told that's bullshit. To be monogamous is difficult for everyone. We never stopped being attracted to other people and everyone needs to exercise self-restraint. Read again what I said about my conversation with my therapist. What you said about bisexual men is what straight men and women alike ask themselves all the time as well.

Of course straight people exercise restraint. I agree with everything you say. Except that with bi guys there is an added dimension which cannot be discounted, whichever fancy way one argues it.

A straight man Will be attracted to many other women, but it will be easier because he is already with a woman. A bi man with a woman has to renounce cock forever if he chooses to be monogamoous to her. If you want to say there is no difference in these two scenarios then OK, but  that doesn't change my take on it- that the two situations aren't comparable.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2011, 03:40:22 PM »
The topic is now intellectual somersaults about monogamy across the sexual orientation continuum?

I am pursuaded by observation and experience that all people have the same challenges and rewards as toward monogamous relationships. 

Also, I think very few gay guys are with their partners because he has "a dick."  The idea of a bi guy having to renounce his desire for "a dick" as the price to pay for staying faithful to his female partner strikes me as someone's very individual experience, not common at all.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2011, 03:46:18 PM »

Also, I think very few gay guys are with their partners because he has "a dick." 

Sorry, this makes no sense. Then this majority of gay guys that you speak of can go with women since a 'dick' doesn't matter to them.

And by dick I dont mean just the penis. I mean anything that defines them as 'male'.
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2011, 03:49:25 PM »
Point taken. I meant to say that her experience applies more to women than men, in my opinion.

Edited to add: Mike, what I am casting on everyone regarding gay sexuality is that we're gay cos we prefer men sexually to women. We prefer cock to pussy. That's what makes us gay. Above all else. It is that basic.

It is not that we find men's personalities more appealing than women or something on those lines, if there even is such a distinction.

In my opinion, what caused you to 'fall in love' with your partner first and foremost is the fact that he is a man, the attractive personality comes next. it is a logical corollary.

This is my unbending view on male sexuality. lol


Well, it can be your unbending OPINION -- I'll respect that.  If you fall in love with a cock instead of a person, fine -- but that isn't me.  I didn't fall in love with a cock -- it wasn't that "basic" for me.  I am attracted to men, true -- but I fall in love with a person -- perhaps it is splitting hairs, but I don't think so.  I've been attracted to many men, have had sex with, um, a "few" -- but I haven't fallen in love with many at all.  So, I don't buy into the theory that you are proposing.  I am not gay because I prefer men sexually -- I am gay because I am attracted to men -- that would hold true whether or not I could have sex or not.  Sex is not how I define myself (although, I do like sex, I won't lie)
Perhaps that is your reality -- but it is not mine.

So -- please, I will respect your opinion -- but don't try and put my experiences down by connecting them to your opinion -- it simply does not match my ACTUAL experience.

Mike
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2011, 03:49:44 PM »
And by dick I dont mean just the penis. I mean anything that defines them as 'male'.

OK then, if that is what you meant.  That's not what you first said.  I thought I read - oh what a sacrifice a bi has to make to be with a woman cause he won't get anymore cock.
Well a straight guy with a woman won't get any OTHER pussy.  I don't get the difference here.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2011, 03:51:11 PM »
 If you fall in love with a cock instead of a person, fine -- but that isn't me.  I didn't fall in love with a cock -- it wasn't that "basic" for me.  I am attracted to men, true -- but I fall in love with a person -- perhaps it is splitting hairs, but I don't think so.
See, Bocker read your post the same way I did. 
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2011, 03:53:17 PM »
And by dick I dont mean just the penis. I mean anything that defines them as 'male'.

Well, now you seem to be slipping away from what you have been saying all along - that one is gay because they have sex with men.  Now you are saying it is because they are attracted to a "male".  I agree with your newer view.  And by attracted, I don't mean, sexual attraction -- I mean attraction.  If you can't understand that distinction, then there is no need to further this discussion, as we will never be able to understand each other.

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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #85 on: September 30, 2011, 04:07:57 PM »
Well, it can be your unbending OPINION -- I'll respect that.  If you fall in love with a cock instead of a person, fine -- but that isn't me.  I didn't fall in love with a cock -- it wasn't that "basic" for me.  I am attracted to men, true -- but I fall in love with a person -- perhaps it is splitting hairs, but I don't think so.  I've been attracted to many men, have had sex with, um, a "few" -- but I haven't fallen in love with many at all.  So, I don't buy into the theory that you are proposing.  I am not gay because I prefer men sexually -- I am gay because I am attracted to men -- that would hold true whether or not I could have sex or not.  Sex is not how I define myself (although, I do like sex, I won't lie)
Perhaps that is your reality -- but it is not mine.

So -- please, I will respect your opinion -- but don't try and put my experiences down by connecting them to your opinion -- it simply does not match my ACTUAL experience.

Mike

Well, now you seem to be slipping away from what you have been saying all along - that one is gay because they have sex with men.  Now you are saying it is because they are attracted to a "male".  I agree with your newer view.  And by attracted, I don't mean, sexual attraction -- I mean attraction.  If you can't understand that distinction, then there is no need to further this discussion, as we will never be able to understand each other.

Mike

I've been misunderstood or I haven't been very good at putting my point across.

What I have been saying all along is that what makes someone gay first and foremost is that we prefer men over women sexually (I think that is the same thing as being attracted to men or a major component of it, at the very least). I do not mean that one gets into relationships with men primarily for sex, or the cock size or whatever being the driving force behind it. That is not what's I meant.

All of us prefer men to women. We fall in love with a man and not with a woman and that makes us gay. And I do think it comes down to sex at a basic level because if it were not that then why aren't you falling in love with a woman?

 I am not saying sex is the 'main ingredient' or the 'driving force' or even the 'main reason' that anyone gets into a relationship with someone from the same sex. But it is the root of it, and in that sense basic.

At the root of it a gay man wants to be intimate with other men emotionally and sexually (which are obviously linked). A gay man will be sexually aroused by other men (erection or not or whatever) and not by women (or not nearly as much).

If some one says that they get hard-ons for women and want to be intimate with them and not with men then they are not gay.

If you think attraction is a broader and more sophisticated term than sexual arousal for the same sex then that's fine. But I think that attraction stems from sexual arousal for the same sex, in the first place- or at the very minimum is a an important component of attraction. If you think it were not, then why don't gay men fall in love with women? Because gay men are sexually attracted to other men, first and foremost, and not women.

And I never suggested that you or  anyone gets into a relationship only for the sex.  I didn't either. If sex were such a driving factor for me I'd prefer being a single gay man. lol.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 04:22:29 PM by spacebarsux »
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #86 on: September 30, 2011, 04:17:34 PM »
I thought you were making points about bisexuals.
A group who are probably the least focused on the importance of their loved ones being of a certain gender.
Yes gays want guys. Lesbians want women. Straights want the opposite sex.
Where is this going?
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #87 on: September 30, 2011, 04:27:21 PM »
I thought you were making points about bisexuals.
A group who are probably the least focused on the importance of their loved ones being of a certain gender.
Yes gays want guys. Lesbians want women. Straights want the opposite sex.
Where is this going?

I was challenging the notion of 'least importance of their loved ones being of a certain gender' as being overly simplistic and wildly inaccurate in as far as it concerned men-in response to Ann's and LM's post.

I was then separately addressing Mike's post on gay sexuality and how I think a person is defined gay first and foremost by virtue of the fact that the person is sexually attracted to a member of the same sex and not so much of the opposite sex. And that attraction for personality et all comes later. I am not talking about why people get into relationships but rather what makes them gay in the first place.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 04:42:12 PM by spacebarsux »
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Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #88 on: September 30, 2011, 07:59:33 PM »
spacebarsux, you shouldn't take your own experience as an example for bisexuals. If you can't be monogamous, because you'll always crave for the other sex, don't think that's how all bisexuals are. It's offending and only contributes to stereotypes.

Offline Raf

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #89 on: September 30, 2011, 08:29:27 PM »
My opinion is that bisexuals that do somersaults are not monogamous
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Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2011, 09:45:41 PM »
My opinion is that bisexuals that do somersaults are not monogamous

What about those that do somersaults in their sleep? That doesn't count... does it?

Offline Raf

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #91 on: September 30, 2011, 09:56:38 PM »
What about those that do somersaults in their sleep? That doesn't count... does it?

Well....Maybe they are monogamous. As you've said, they have enough dealing with their neck, let alone dealing with multiple partners/relationships  :D
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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2011, 01:09:27 AM »
spacebarsux, you shouldn't take your own experience as an example for bisexuals. If you can't be monogamous, because you'll always crave for the other sex, don't think that's how all bisexuals are. It's offending and only contributes to stereotypes.

I never said I can't or bisexual men cannot or are incapable of being monogamous, I said it comes at a higher personal cost or sacrifice. If you feel it is no different to the self-restraint a straight man exercises by not being with other women then that's good on you. 

And I certainly see no reason to mince any words in stating my opinion on the subject because it may offend some overly sensitive bisexuals.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 01:30:35 AM by spacebarsux »
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #93 on: October 01, 2011, 04:32:03 AM »
I never said I can't or bisexual men cannot or are incapable of being monogamous, I said it comes at a higher personal cost or sacrifice. If you feel it is no different to the self-restraint a straight man exercises by not being with other women then that's good on you.  

And I certainly see no reason to mince any words in stating my opinion on the subject because it may offend some overly sensitive bisexuals.

Space, this thread has got you all worked up.  This is the third time I've noticed in the discussion that you are doing somersaults explaining, defending, refining, walking-back, clarifying points most of us aren't really following.   Also there you are using negatives, and double negatives. 
I never said I cannot.
If you feel it is no different
exercises by not being
see no reason to mince

What is it about the topic that gets your panties in such a bunch?

Or, just occurred to me, is English your mother tongue?

(Oh, sorry, can't resist - so you are a gay guy who won't mince....    words.   )
Leaving it to someone else to unwrap "overly sensitive bisexuals."
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 04:36:44 AM by mecch »
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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #94 on: October 01, 2011, 05:08:13 AM »

What is it about the topic that gets your panties in such a bunch?

Or, just occurred to me, is English your mother tongue?


What really gets my panties in a bunch are patronising and 'waanabe forum moderators' who feel they have the right to toss their smarmy pearls of wisdom down at us ordinary plebeians because they are perched high up on the Swiss Alps.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2011, 05:15:19 AM »
I have heard similar comebacks before so there is probably a grain of truth and in any event they don't push my buttons.

Also, what about my question. (Not that you have to answer.)  Why are these fine points so important to you.  
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 05:17:40 AM by mecch »
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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2011, 05:38:37 AM »
I have heard similar comebacks before so there is probably a grain of truth and in any event they don't push my buttons.

Also, what about my question. (Not that you have to answer.)  Why are these fine points so important to you.  

 I was merely trying to explain my views and opinions on male sexuality and male bi-sexuality based on my experiences as well as a great deal of research I did for an article I wrote on the very connected subject of 'Perceptions of Male Sexuality in South Asia."
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Offline LM

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2011, 09:11:10 AM »
I was merely trying to explain my views and opinions on male sexuality and male bi-sexuality based on my experiences as well as a great deal of research I did for an article I wrote on the very connected subject of 'Perceptions of Male Sexuality in South Asia."

You're trying to explain how "we" feel by your theories on male sexuality. Fact is, it includes a lot of bullshit, as noted by others, but you don't seem to take that well.

Or maybe these theories work for South Asians. You gotta start somewhere...

Offline bocker3

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #98 on: October 01, 2011, 10:11:36 AM »
I was merely trying to explain my views and opinions on male sexuality and male bi-sexuality based on my experiences as well as a great deal of research I did for an article I wrote on the very connected subject of 'Perceptions of Male Sexuality in South Asia."

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and views, but what I see you doing in this thread is arguing against and trying to "disprove" the actual experiences of others using your opinions.  You are trying, intentionally or not, to cast your opinions as facts that apply to all.  I think that is why you are getting the pushback you are seeing here.

I don't recall if you are gay or bi-sexual and it really doesn't matter -- but trying to tell someone else, particularly someone of a different orientation than yourself, what their motivations are or what may be "more difficult" for them is simply bound to upset others -- hopefully you can understand that.

So -- state your opinions, be willing to debate, ask questions, but don't try and argue with someone's actual experience.

M
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Online hope_for_a_cure

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Re: Beware of doing somersaults
« Reply #99 on: October 01, 2011, 10:20:02 AM »
I think the guy who did the somersault really just wanted a little bit of attention and to find a way to 'blame' his sexual preference on something other than his deep down desire to be with another man. 

I fell off the top bunk of my bunkbed when I was 5 years old and hit my head really hard... when I woke up I was able to immediately play Bach's Two-Part Invention #8 without sight reading!  Later that day when the pain was gone I was only able to play Mary Had a Little Lamb in C major. 

Offline tednlou2

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Man Has Stroke; Wakes Up Gay
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2011, 06:17:43 PM »
And, he is really pushing the stereotype to boot.  So, was he always gay and hiding it or didn't realize it, or did something just click in his head that we just don't understand?  Could a gene have been awakened?  A different personality switched on?  We've heard the stories of people waking up from comas and knowing how to paint or speaking in a different accent.  He left his lady, lost a bunch of weight, and became a hair stylist.   

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2058921/Chris-Birch-stroke-Rugby-player-wakes-gay-freak-gym-accident.html


Offline rondrond

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Re: Man Has Stroke; Wakes Up Gay
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2011, 06:26:57 PM »
I think he was in denial before and most people who experience near death experiences usually do come to with some sort of healing ability or talent....recognizing that life is short and f--the b.s,....

I wonder how long he shopped dated and if he tried different age groups and types before settling on a 19 yr old twink?
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*APR 08~Viramune/Truvada
March08  CD4 330 23% VL 452.000 
*Jan09 Med change~Epzicom/Viramune

Aug09   CD4 523 23%  VL<48
Diagnosed: COPD
Dec 2013: CD4 645 45% VL 49
Med Change: Viramune/Epivir/Ziagen/Isentress

Offline Ann

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Re: Man Has Stroke; Wakes Up Gay
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2011, 06:28:27 AM »
And, he is really pushing the stereotype to boot.  So, was he always gay and hiding it or didn't realize it, or did something just click in his head that we just don't understand?  Could a gene have been awakened?  A different personality switched on?  We've heard the stories of people waking up from comas and knowing how to paint or speaking in a different accent.  He left his lady, lost a bunch of weight, and became a hair stylist.   

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2058921/Chris-Birch-stroke-Rugby-player-wakes-gay-freak-gym-accident.html



Old news, Tedderz. I merged your new thread with the original one from seven weeks ago.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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