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Author Topic: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?  (Read 5010 times)

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Offline randomk

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What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« on: August 21, 2011, 10:39:10 PM »
Hi,

I'm trying to determine what the rules are when it comes to being HIV positive and hooking up with someone who doesn't know your status. I've been checking online and there doesn't seem to be a set guideline, it all comes down to a morality decision. Do I have to tell that person my status if complete protection and a condom are used?

As a personal rule, I've told anyone that I've become sexually active with. That is, if they are still interested in becoming sexually active. At first I believed I wanted that person to know so they could make an informed decision, but now I'm realizing many people aren't informed. It feels like I have leprosy.  One person even suggested I "stick to my own" kind.

What are the rules? BTW, I live in Toronto ON

Offline mecch

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 10:44:40 PM »
There are no "rules"?  Where did you expect to find rules?  Who did you expect to set them?
However, there are laws in some states in the US, and in some nations.  I don't know about Toronto.

Sounds like you are doing what feels right for you.

And it sucks, yes indeed, when you get hurtful responses, but that's their problem finally. You're good.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline le_liseur

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 02:51:00 AM »
Randomk,

Legally, you can't have sex with someone if you engage in risky behaviours with them without telling your status. So you should tell it if you have anal or vaginal sex without condoms, if you don't want to get seriously charged... You would also find it easier to tell your status, even if you have safe sex, or pretty much any sexual contacts, as people have been prosecuted still in these conditions, even if they are not risky from a medical point of view. But judges and the judicial system didn't establish what is 'risky' in their books...

You will face all sorts of reactions, from good to bad, but you better play safe that way than end up with your face in the media because of a police report... ;-)

Offline mecch

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 03:17:37 AM »
Liseur - the laws are different all over the world.
Some places have no laws about unsafe sex and or lack of disclosure.
Your advice is not precise and only leads to confusion.  Unless you are specifically describing the laws in Ottawa/Canada. 
Are you?

If you or anyone wants to respect the laws, you have to look up what they are in YOUR state, your country. etc.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline buginme2

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 04:05:48 AM »
Suprisingly the ASO in Toronto does have a handbook about hooking up.

http://www.actoronto.org/home.nsf/pages/handydandyhookup


Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 04:37:50 AM »
I always love a disclosure thread. It encourages otherwise sensible people to take leave of their senses and embrace their inner fuckwit, giving voice to prescription strength idiocy.

No matter what the law might be in your locality, disclosure practices should be a no brainer.

Can he identify you? Disclose your status before engaging in hi-jinks of any sort.

Is he some toothless hick who is partly deaf and pretty much blind because his mother drank heavily through the pregnancy? Take your chances and say nothing, a frisson of risk makes life worth living.

MtD

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 04:56:41 AM »
It's a tight rope walk between your partner's safety, the law of the land and satisfying your innate sexual desires and needs.  

Whatever one decides, I think everyone would agree that one should take all measures to ensure the sex is safe and thus minimize risk risk is zero. Whether those measures include disclosure of your personal health status to a random stranger off the internet is debatable and the answer can oftentimes depend on situational factors (for example - if one is on meds with an  UD viral load and there is no penetrative sex, then not disclosing is not unethical in my opinion). Some may disagree.

You will get viewpoints from both sides of the fence.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 05:40:14 AM by spacebarsux »
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 05:07:09 AM »
It's a tight rope walk between your partner's safety, the law of the land and satisfying your innate sexual desires and needs. 

Whatever one decides, I think everyone would agree that one should take all measures to ensure the sex is safe and risk is zero. Whether those measures include disclosure of your personal health status to a random stranger off the internet is debatable and the answer can oftentimes depend on situational factors (for example - if one is on meds with an  UD viral load and there is no penetrative sex, then not disclosing is not unethical in my opinion). Some may disagree.

You will get viewpoints from both sides of the fence.

Yeah, but to have a risk of zero is to not have sex.

And, let's face it, that is not what we're about here. Around here we're about not getting caught.

The 11th Commandment and all that.

So, given the OP wants to chase the Chutney Ferret, how can we help him minimise the prospect of his being caught?

Thinking caps on, people! :)

MtD

Offline buginme2

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 05:22:14 AM »
The OP should create a hook up pseudonym.  He can call himself Jane Fonda and shake his ass all over Toronto.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 05:30:06 AM »

And, let's face it, that is not what we're about here. Around here we're about not getting caught.

MtD

Agree Matty. The OP is from Canada though. Going by the way they're incarcerating positive people for having sex without disclosure over there, for a sexually active single pozzie, it seems there's little room for maneuverability between disclosing before a shag or sitting pretty at home and wanking to Porno.

I guess if one is strictly private about their status, the 'not getting caught' issue is fairly contingent on  who you hook up with and what transpires between you two.

I suspect a mid-forties sexually active gay man in a big city would be more ready to take some responsibility in the consequences (if any) of a sexual act with a stranger and thus not drag your ass to court,  as compared with a 16 year old girl hooking up on the internet for the first time (just a hypothetical example).
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline elf

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 05:48:20 AM »
In my country as well as Italy, Spain, Portugal, there's no such thing as obligatory disclosure.
Here, no people have been prosecuted or jailed for HIV transmission (there is no HIV specific law).
HIV counselors here say: we don't force anyone to disclose their status, but make sure you use condoms.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 05:52:24 AM by elf »

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 05:57:13 AM »
In my country as well as Italy, Spain, Portugal, there's no such thing as obligatory disclosure.

That's cos they're irresistibly sexy.  ;)
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline NycJoe

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 07:52:13 AM »
I never got my rule book nor toaster when I signed up here.  Who's is in charge of this?  Ann?  Please forward me the rule book ASAP.   That way I can whip it out during a date and figure out wtf I should or shouldn't do.  Thanks...

Joe.     ;)

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 07:58:46 AM »
I never got my rule book nor toaster when I signed up here.  Who's is in charge of this?  Ann?  Please forward me the rule book ASAP.   That way I can whip it out during a date and figure out wtf I should or shouldn't do.  Thanks...

Joe.     ;)

Probably you shouldn't whip out a toaster during a date. Unless your date is Ellen. :)

I hear she's totally into that sort of thing.

MtD

Offline denb45

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2011, 08:15:02 AM »
Full disclosure  is the best policy, but then again I haven't hooked up w/ anyone in the last 18 yrs. accept my other-half Bob, and I didn't have to tell him, someone else he knew did, but never-the-less he didn't care  :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Ann

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2011, 08:52:48 AM »
I never got my rule book nor toaster when I signed up here.  Who's is in charge of this?  Ann?  Please forward me the rule book ASAP.   That way I can whip it out during a date and figure out wtf I should or shouldn't do.  Thanks...

Joe.     ;)

Joe, I'll happily forward the rule book to you.....

But it'll cost ya.

The toaster is free, and we have bread and butter available at extortionate costs. You know you want our bread though, so pay up!



As for disclosing before sex, I always do. If they can't handle my hiv status, I show them the door. The negatively challenged have no place in my life. I don't feel it's a reflection on me or that I'm "not worthy" or whatever - some jerk who doesn't know the ins and outs of hiv transmission in the 21 century is the one who is not worthy. I rock, hiv virus and all. If you can't handle that, then I'm better off without you.


I always love a disclosure thread.


Agreed. They're the dog's bollocks!

Speaking of dogs, you don't have to disclose to them because they cannot get hiv. Cool, eh?

edited because I made like JBwhatever and wrote in the quote box. Duh!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 08:55:49 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline BJS2011

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2011, 09:40:47 AM »
Hi,

I'm trying to determine what the rules are when it comes to being HIV positive and hooking up with someone who doesn't know your status. I've been checking online and there doesn't seem to be a set guideline, it all comes down to a morality decision. Do I have to tell that person my status if complete protection and a condom are used?

As a personal rule, I've told anyone that I've become sexually active with. That is, if they are still interested in becoming sexually active. At first I believed I wanted that person to know so they could make an informed decision, but now I'm realizing many people aren't informed. It feels like I have leprosy.  One person even suggested I "stick to my own" kind.

What are the rules? BTW, I live in Toronto ON
AS far as I know you are suppose to reveal your status before ANY sexual contact. Its law in Canada. If you don't and they get infected you can be charged with attemp manslaughter. I believe in being totally up front right away. I have NEVER been turned away.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2011, 09:43:20 AM »
I have NEVER been turned away.

Wow that's quite inspiring.

PS- I'd love to see your picture by the way.
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2011, 09:49:52 AM »
Wow that's quite inspiring.

PS- I'd love to see your picture by the way.

Head like a knee, no doubt.

But all cats are grey in the dark. :)

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2011, 12:05:15 PM »

PS- I'd love to see your picture by the way.

Here ya go.  Lovely, ain't it?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Ann

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2011, 12:07:04 PM »
Here ya go.  Lovely, ain't it?

But who is that guy holding him?
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2011, 12:15:04 PM »
But who is that guy holding him?

That's Rev. Moon on acid:

Studied To get as drunk and high on as many drugs as possible at College of Toronto's Nite Life!!
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline SteveInToronto

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2011, 12:31:21 PM »
AS far as I know you are suppose to reveal your status before ANY sexual contact. Its law in Canada. If you don't and they get infected you can be charged with attemp manslaughter. I believe in being totally up front right away. I have NEVER been turned away.

There is no such thing as attempted manslaughter. The charge is aggravated sexual assault. And it is ridiculous.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2011, 12:34:21 PM »
There is no such thing as attempted manslaughter. The charge is aggravated sexual assault. And it is ridiculous.

I dunno. The Crown might be able to bring an action in common law . . .

MtD

Offline SteveInToronto

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2011, 12:44:53 PM »
I dunno. The Crown might be able to bring an action in common law . . .

We have a Criminal Code in Canada that articulates the limits of criminal charges. I suppose some jack ass crown attorney could push for a charge of attempted murder, but that would be predicated on intent to transmit. The Aziga case is an extreme situation where someone was actually convicted of murder, but only because the crown convinced a jury that someone died as a direct result of an aggravated sexual assault due to non-disclosure. It won't bring back the women that died, and only serves to marginalize us all.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 12:50:38 PM by SteveInToronto »

Offline newt

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2011, 01:13:51 PM »
Setting aside the law (which his an as crusing for a brusing or at least a long-term viral infection in most cases), what does your own moral compass say? It might be different in different situations, eg in blow job in a dark bush vs looking em in they eye over dessert...me, I always tell except in certain rare situations where the venue is not condusive and its mainly jerking and sucking, I confess I get a kicik out of watchin poeple's reactions.

The test for me is, did I shag as safe and honest as we both wanted and not feel crap about it this morning? This usually means telling.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2011, 01:21:14 PM »
We have a Criminal Code in Canada that articulates the limits of criminal charges. I suppose some jack ass crown attorney could push for a charge of attempted murder, but that would be predicated on intent to transmit. The Aziga case is an extreme situation where someone was actually convicted of murder, but only because the crown convinced a jury that someone died as a direct result of an aggravated sexual assault due to non-disclosure. It won't bring back the women that died, and only serves to marginalize us all.

We have an odd artefact of the common law in NSW (not Australia as such) called "Greivous Bodily Disease".

Curiously it's not actually a criminal offence (it's not described in the Crimes Act) but it carries such penalties as are normally associated with a criminal offence, ie you'll go to gaol.

The law is such a jolly thing, don't you think? :)

MtD

Offline SteveInToronto

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2011, 02:04:39 PM »
We have an odd artefact of the common law in NSW (not Australia as such) called "Greivous Bodily Disease".

Curiously it's not actually a criminal offence (it's not described in the Crimes Act) but it carries such penalties as are normally associated with a criminal offence, ie you'll go to gaol.

The law is such a jolly thing, don't you think? :)

MtD

Yup.... oppressing the oppressed since 1700BC.

Granted we typically have it pretty good in the far north, but some of the precedent setting cases related to HIV transmission make us look like a bunch of puritan militants (which can sometimes be a fair statement depending on which part of our geography you look at). Overall I like to think we are an enlightened society, but sometimes I do have to shake my head.

Your legal artefact is a strange one. When originally conjured up, what was the greivous bodily disease provision supposed to control?

Steve

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2011, 02:10:17 PM »
Yup.... oppressing the oppressed since 1700BC.

Granted we typically have it pretty good in the far north, but some of the precedent setting cases related to HIV transmission make us look like a bunch of puritan militants (which can sometimes be a fair statement depending on which part of our geography you look at). Overall I like to think we are an enlightened society, but sometimes I do have to shake my head.

Your legal artefact is a strange one. When originally conjured up, what was the greivous bodily disease provision supposed to control?

Steve

I have no idea. I am not a lawyer. My suspicion is that it bears googling.

MtD

Offline LM

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2011, 02:55:44 PM »
In my country as well as Italy, Spain, Portugal, there's no such thing as obligatory disclosure.
Here, no people have been prosecuted or jailed for HIV transmission (there is no HIV specific law).
HIV counselors here say: we don't force anyone to disclose their status, but make sure you use condoms.

Same here, they only insisted on really disclosing when in a relationship. I think one should do whatever makes him feel good about it, bearing in mind the local laws.

Offline le_liseur

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Re: What are the rules for HIV Positive men hooking up?
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2011, 06:21:34 PM »
Liseur - the laws are different all over the world.
Some places have no laws about unsafe sex and or lack of disclosure.
Your advice is not precise and only leads to confusion.  Unless you are specifically describing the laws in Ottawa/Canada. 
Are you?

If you or anyone wants to respect the laws, you have to look up what they are in YOUR state, your country. etc.

I was going by CATIE's legal guide and information adressing this subject for men who have sex with men. The info is all here : http://www.catie.ca/eng/SpecificCommunities/hiv-disclosure.shtml And there is a specific document for people in Ontario too. So yes, I was specifically describing the situation in Canada (and Ontario), since the OP said he is from Toronto...

So I'd like to remind this : according to our Criminal Code here, you can get into troubles if you didn't disclose your seropositivity before having "risky" sexual intercourses. But the Code doesn't state what is a risky intercourse. We know for sure any court will consider anal or vaginal sex without condoms as a risky behaviour, but the rest isn't clear at all, and it's problematic. It will depend on the judge and on how the Crown attorney will present your case.

In a 2010 case in British-Columbia, someone was said "NOT guilty" for having sex without condoms, without telling his partner, because he was the receptive partner, and the judge thought it was immoral, but not criminal, because of scientific and medical advances.

In other situation, a judge could decide oral sex is a risky behaviour and there should be criminal charges. So you have to be careful with how you play, and how you tell it, condoms or not. Saying you're 'poz' could be useless if the person then says in court he didn't know what that namecode is for... etc.

Offline Miss Philicia

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"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

 


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