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Author Topic: So what do we do now?  (Read 7369 times)

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Offline Joe K

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So what do we do now?
« on: September 15, 2006, 02:23:59 PM »
If you want to understand the true cost of the Bush Administration and it's poorly structured efforts at HIV prevention, I relate the following sad truth.

A sex club recently opened here and since it is held in a swingers club, nudity and sexual acts are allowed anywhere within the club.  It's a big step up from the baths because it is more structured like a play bar and you would hope that might facilitate discussions regarding safer sex, but hell no.

We went two nights ago and while sitting at the bar, we noticed a naked man who proceeded to get on one of the couches and thrust his ass into the air.  Like a moose call there appeared at least five guys, forming a line to do this guy anally and no one of them used a condom, nor did anyone NEGOTIATE ANYTHING.  A couple of the guys took their turn and then returned to the end of the line and this continued for about 10 minutes.

The club is great about having condoms and lube all over the place.  You get two when you walk in and they are everywhere, yet not an empty condom wrapper in site.  What else was missing???  Prevention information of any kind.  The reason?  Our ASOs have no money for prevention information because the Bushies insist on abstinence only prevention information, which is a joke in many segments of the community.  Adults have the right to do what they want and the duty to act responsible, but these guys just did not care.

So how do we fix this?  Or is it too late?  What do we have to do to get people to understand the reality of HIV?  Do we even have the responsibility, other than personal, anymore for getting prevention information back into the communities where it is sorely needed?  I am so tired of having to do what the government should have been doing all along.

Please pressure your representatives to support funding for SCIENTIFIC prevention information before it is too late, or maybe that time has already passed.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2006, 02:26:36 PM »
I propose that we do lunch.

Following that we should repair to the haberdashery and select tasteful fabrics with a view to making curtains. We should cancel next years AIDSMEDS Grope (AMG) and have a sewing circle instead.

MtD

Offline anniebc

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2006, 06:24:25 PM »
Hi Joe

I really don't think there is much we can do....if alcohol and/or drugs are in play then no amount of funding, information or prevention advise is going to make any differnece..I do about 10 talks a year on HIV and I'm always  preaching safe sex to all the Med Students I talk to and to all the Collage Students I talk to..but I have no way of knowing if they actually practive what I preach...I can only hope they do the right thing...there is only so much we can do...just my thoughts.

Hugs
Jan :-*

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline Eldon

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2006, 12:27:48 AM »
Hey Joe,

I am highly disappointed with the Bush Administration. Abstinence? Are they kidding themselves or what? Funds need to be allocated for PREVENTION and AWARENESS. I am so thankful that this is his last term in the oval office.

Remember, when you go to the polls and vote, consider the persons whom say they will address these issues to Congress.


Have the BEST Day!

Offline alive2

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2006, 01:00:48 AM »
i agree with all who know that bush and his ship of fools are wrong when it comes to abstinence,sure it may work for a few,but the rest of us dont live in prehistoric times.when i was younger,i wish i had the information i know now.it sure would have been alot easier to make informed dissions,rather than(pardon the expression)poke and hope.the issue of protection should be the issue in the minds of everyone,also when i was younger i would tag a few women a day,now im not don juan,but it would have made me look at things a whole lot different.and being young and raging with hormones you couldnt tell me not to get laid when i already had some girl lined up for some action.and the kids now are even further off base when it comes to knowledge of this terrible disease.sorry if i went off base with the conversation,wasnt intentinal.take care

Offline allanq

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2006, 01:47:57 AM »
That club sounds like a pretty scary place, but I wouldn't place the blame for what you saw entirely on the Bush administration. Word has been out for a long time about the dangers of unprotected sex. (Believe me, I do not support Bush or his policies.)

Back in the 80's and 90's, there were so many people dying that it was hard NOT to think about the dangers of unprotected sex. Some weeks, the obituaries in the Bay Area Reporter went on for two full pages. EVERYONE knew many people who were sick or had already died from AIDS. Walking down Castro Street in San Francisco, you could see death on so many faces. Now that death and visible sickness are less common, perhaps people think less about the consequences of their acts. Add to this the use of drugs that impair one's judgment, and it's sad, but not surprising, to hear about the the behavior you witnessed.

I agree that we need more effective prevention programs, but I honestly don't see how anyone in this day and age can be unaware of the risks involved in unprotected sex.

I also blame the owners of that club for allowing the blatant unsafe behavior that you witnessed. We can't control what goes on in the privacy of a home, but we can control behavior in a public club. If I were in a bar and got too drunk, the bar owner could rightfully ask me to leave. (Many years ago, that actually happened to me.) There's no reason why the club manager couldn't have stopped that guy with his ass up in the air. By doing so, he might even have been an effective source of education for those lining up for their turn.

Allan
Top (Breakfast): Prezista, Norvir, Isentress, Zoloft (2), Glyburide (2), Aspirin
Bottom right (Dinner): Prezista, Norvir, Isentress
Bottom left (Bedtime): Sustiva, Trazodone (2), Lipitor, Septra (no longer taking this)
Center: Alprazolam (Xanax)
Not shown: various vitamins & supplements

Offline Cliff

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2006, 03:27:03 AM »
Hi Joe,

I agree with Jan.  I don't see what more can be done in that situation.  The club is doing the right thing by passing out condoms to everyone and making them freely available.  If the patrons choose not to use them, then I don't know what more anyone can do to make them use protection.  Perhaps all those guys were already positive?  They certainly know about HIV and know how it's transmitted.  If they choose to take a calculated risk, then they will have no one else to blame but themselves when they become infected.

The only alternative is to shut down the club.  But I doubt that will stop unprotected sex.

Cliff

Offline aztecan

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2006, 08:24:32 AM »
Hey Joe,
We don't get much in the way of new prevention material these days. I recently saw the CDC's "pamphlet" discussing HIV. It doesn't mention condoms or using clean syringes at all. It mentions monogamy and waiting until a person is in a "committed relationshop."

I almost became ill.

I am seeing an increasing number of young people, many of them hetero, who want to be tested.

According to the "rules," I am supposed to send them on their way if they aren't in a high-risk category, i.e. gay, sex worker, sex worker client, IDU.

I don't. I test them anyway.

As you probably know, I also do harm reduction (syringe exchange) for drug users. That is something old king george frowns upon as well. Luckily, our Legislature mandated it by law, so we have to provide it.

Bush and his cronies are preaching abstinence and monogamy, while many at the local level are trying their best to pass along worthwhile safer sex and HIV prevention information without running afoul of those who hold the purse strings.

The prevention info being "taught" at local schools is a joke. They are getting the official abstinence line with no real prevention information being included, such as how to use a condom.

Then we have people who still think its a disease only found in gays, drug users and prostitutes. They don't think they are at risk. They are wrong, as the eight women in my area who found out they had HIV when they were pregnant and the half-dozen who are in their late 50s and early 60s who recently have been diagnosed, can attest.

It isn't just a matter of a sex club where anything goes. It is a society living in blissful ignorance, where the horrors of the 80s and early 90s have faded into dull memories - if they are remembered at all.

It is an administration that thumps its Bible and preaches holier-than-thou rhetoric while ignoring what's going on in the streets, bars and bedrooms of the nation.

It is the result of having several generations grow up with 30-second attention spans and a belief there is a magic bullet for everything.

So what do we do to wake-up folks? I haven't a clue.

I will just keep on doing what I can do, pass out condoms, syringes and information when I can, test people even if they don't necessarily fit the high-risk mold (until they catch me) and continue to enroll those who never thought it would happen to them.

Sorry if this sounds less than optimistic. We can only do what is within our power.

HUGS,

Mark
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 08:28:38 AM by aztecan »
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Iggy

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2006, 09:03:08 AM »
.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 09:28:11 PM by Iggy »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2006, 09:26:23 AM »
Joe, as an activist and educator...why did you not report this to the management? At least you could have left knowing you tried.

Offline Joe K

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2006, 11:34:37 AM »
It seems that we are limited in what we can do, because the money for prevention work in the gay community is just not there.  Iggy, I never blamed the Bush Administration for the fact that these guys are idiots, I blame them for a lack of funding so there would at least be some prevention information in our restaurants, bars and clubs.

Telling the management would do nothing because it is a sex club and they expect adults to take care of themselves.  That is why this bothers me so much.  Even after 25 years and millions more deaths than we can count, it still happens.

And we have tried talking to guys about safer sex and they look at us like we are from Mars.

Offline Lisa

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2006, 12:10:26 PM »
....which brings to mind the old adage of leading a horse to water.......
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline jack

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2006, 01:00:30 PM »
Let me get this straight. If  Bush had provided rubbers in this cesspool, these animals would have used them? WTF? Is it the governments responsibility to use my tax dollars so some drunk will have rubbers so he can buttfuck some other drunk in public? I dont remember any of the candidates discussing this before the last election. Hilarious.
And if it was a woman and men performing these acts it would still be a fucking cesspool. Bush should have had rubbers there for these lowlifes.
Its so simple. You either don't have sex or use a rubber.  But I cant afford a rubber.
 Are we no more intelligent than my fucking dog?  You all want the government out of your sex lives, but now you want them to provide rubbers in bars?




Offline Grinch

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2006, 01:36:42 PM »
I have to say,  The bar provided condoms, people chose not to use them.  Maybe WE should be doing something about it.
Why does everyone blame everything on the President?
Did he tell them unsafe sex is OK?
Did he come steal all the club provided protection?
I've said plenty of times we are responsible for our own actions.  Not the government, not our parents, not the police, us.

  The President chooses to take the stance that abstinence is the way to go.  Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong.  The fact is he's not the guy that writes the laws. 

   Instead of watching and screaming THIS IS BUSH's FAULT!  maybe we say DON'T DO THAT YOU IDIOT!
I don't know about you but I don't want to live in a land where there are government officials in my bedroom.  If we take responsibility for our selves maybe we can avoid such a thing.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2006, 04:05:11 PM »
I too don't see what the government has to do with this particular scenario. This goes back to the complicated and disturbing problem of why educated people are not having safer sex. I recently went to an adult video store to buy porn and was pretty shocked at all of the bareback titles out there. There used to be just a couple and now it seemed like a good percentage of new gay videos are bareback. Also from talking to friends who are gay and in the scene, barebacking has become a common activity in certain circles. These guys obviously know about HIV and safer sex, so are they HIV+ and don't care? Are they negative and think it can't happen to them? Are they just tired of condom and looking for a new thrill? I know bareback is a huge turn on for some people, so maybe it's just lust.

I don't have any answers. But I find it difficult to believe that adult in the U.S. doesn't know that having anal sex without a condom can transmit HIV.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2006, 04:23:56 PM »
Let me get this straight. If  Bush had provided rubbers in this cesspool, these animals would have used them? WTF? Is it the governments responsibility to use my tax dollars so some drunk will have rubbers so he can buttfuck some other drunk in public? I dont remember any of the candidates discussing this before the last election. Hilarious.
And if it was a woman and men performing these acts it would still be a fucking cesspool. Bush should have had rubbers there for these lowlifes.
Its so simple. You either don't have sex or use a rubber.  But I cant afford a rubber.
 Are we no more intelligent than my fucking dog?  You all want the government out of your sex lives, but now you want them to provide rubbers in bars?





Thank God you are HIV positive...because if you weren't, I have a feeling you would be standing shoulder to shoulder with the Reverend Phelps. If safe sex education saved one "animal" would you be okay with that? Drugs and alcohol and a big dose of low self-esteem leads to this type of behavior...what was your excuse?

Offline wellington

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2006, 04:39:16 PM »
I find this really interesting.

On the one hand, I'd like to think that safety could be provided for those who are ignorant about HIV. I guess we all ought to have a social responsibility to care for our fellow human beings. it may be an ideal that is hard to reach in practice, however.

On the other hand, I generally assume that anyone engaging in unsafe sex is already infected. I also believe that they have a duty to inform others with whom they may engage in sexual congress. That being said, unless it's masturbation, sex is between two consenting adults, so both parties ought to act responsibly. And, yet again, we face another lofty ideal.

I think Darwin had some good ideas, and perhaps our situation in repsect of HIV has to get much worse before it can get better. It's a sad, sad truth, but it seems rather parallel to the mode in which many people live their lives.

Offline Terry

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2006, 05:51:07 PM »
Jack/Jake you are right on the mark. Thank you for having the balls to speak up.

It is just this kind of behavior from the Gay community that Reverend Phelps uses as fuel for hatred towards gays. And the gays by their actions give him plenty to work with. That queen on the couch with his ass in the air will (If he isn't already) be a member here very soon.

I have to say that the contents in this thread and the description of what took place, makes me ill.

To think that in this day and age of HIV/AIDS this type of behavior is not only still happening but is also supported by people who are already infected and they financially support these clubs by going into them and spending their money there.

Maybe this is just the kind of behavior that some straight and other gay members of this forum were morally/rightly complained about earlier?



« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 05:52:47 PM by Terry »

Offline Joe K

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2006, 06:04:47 PM »
Jack, exactly when did you become the judge and jury about other peoples sexual practices?  I did not say that the administration was at fault, what I said was ASOs have no money for prevention messages, because this administration is flat funding HIV services.  No we can't save them all but we need the messages for those who we can still reach and that includes all segments, not just the governments segment of the month.

This is not an issue of punishing those heathen gays, it's about stemming the HIV infection rates.

And Terry, thank you for your quick judgment on our going to such a club, as if we are somehow contributing to this issue because we go to the club.  Unfortunately we don't have to go to this club as there are many venues where unsafe sex takes place.  It's like blaming all the patrons at a bar because some customers are involved in DUIs.  We are at least working at getting some prevention information in the club.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2006, 06:58:58 PM »
Jack/Jake you are right on the mark. Thank you for having the balls to speak up.

It is just this kind of behavior from the Gay community that Reverend Phelps uses as fuel for hatred towards gays. And the gays by their actions give him plenty to work with. That queen on the couch with his ass in the air will (If he isn't already) be a member here very soon.

I have to say that the contents in this thread and the description of what took place, makes me ill.

To think that in this day and age of HIV/AIDS this type of behavior is not only still happening but is also supported by people who are already infected and they financially support these clubs by going into them and spending their money there.

Maybe this is just the kind of behavior that some straight and other gay members of this forum were morally/rightly complained about earlier?






Terry where was your ass when you became infected? You holier than thou queens make me sick to my stomach...Phelps doesn't need our behaviour to sanctify his hatred. He would feed you and Jack to the lions as fast as the "animal' with his ass in the air. Phony a-holes.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 07:13:46 PM by Dachshund »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2006, 07:40:54 PM »
....and one more thing while I am on it. What are you going to say to the next person who accesses this site with a history of drug and sex addiction? Are you going to tell that person to get off this site you filthy animal...according to Reverend Phelps you deserve what you got. Or are you going to welcome them in the same way everyone else was welcomed. Think about it.

Offline Terry

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2006, 08:34:02 PM »

Terry where was your ass when you became infected? You holier than thou queens make me sick to my stomach...Phelps doesn't need our behaviour to sanctify his hatred. He would feed you and Jack to the lions as fast as the "animal' with his ass in the air. Phony a-holes.
Hal,

You should watch your mouth. I didn’t start name-calling. And you won’t drag me into name-calling. It’s none of your business where or from whom I got AIDS. I can assure you that it wasn't on a couch in the middle of a sex club.

My point here is that the action of a few sick-minded gays makes us all look bad. And the actions of those standing by and doing/saying nothing and even encouraging this type of behavior is wrong on so many levels it’s not funny.

There happens to still be some people in this world with moral standards. And yes, some of us are gay and don’t fit into your stereotypical gay, fag, effeminate, or fruity demeanor.

Personally, It sickens me when people (just because they are homosexuals) feel that it is necessary to make clowns out of themselves when in public.

Hal, I didn’t address my comment to you. I was addressing Jakes response and the originator of this thread. Who made you God/moderator of the forum???

There is nothing phony or two-faced about me. I truly believe in “Live and let live.” as well as “Respect your fellow man.” But if a small segment of the gay community puts a picture/image out into the public that reflects poorly on me due to my association in the gay community, then I have a right to say/do something. This type of behavior in no way reflects me or my lifestyle in any way shape or form.

Your sanctifying these kinds of actions causes me to be sick to my stomach.





....and one more thing while I am on it. What are you going to say to the next person who accesses this site with a history of drug and sex addiction? Are you going to tell that person to get off this site you filthy animal...according to Reverend Phelps you deserve what you got. Or are you going to welcome them in the same way everyone else was welcomed. Think about it.
And to answer you added comment. Those are your words not mine. In my opinion, you seriously have a problem and issues that you need to work out before you continue attacking people.


Offline alisenjafi

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2006, 08:37:24 PM »
I find it kind of funny that we look at the gay sex scene in one way and the str8 sex scene in another. New York makes a big deal when going and closing a gay sauna, yet you don't hear anything on the str8 swingers clubs.
Then again maybe they all do practice safe sex, not being str8 i wouldn't know, but I bet the many students who go to Florida for spring break , don't practice safe sex. No one here had a thread on this- I haven't read one to date.

In a similar vain a local free paper had an article about a park being used for gay sex. The argument was twofold. one it is illegal and two the litter.
I talked to a friend and e mailed a fellow member here in NY about this. No matter what you say it will just make you look as you are promoting unsafe and illegal sex.
Yet str8's have a right to have unsafe sex and there is not as much moral judgement on them.
Just look at how the media portrays the fact that str8 African American women are now the largest group being reported to being infected.
No matter what I read the underlining message is that gay men are the cause of HIV as long as they have sex.
In the end the managers of the club should have not permitted this to go on. This was the reason  one of the last clubs in NY was shut down.

Btw Terry why is this the only picture that our society shows of gays as  insatiable animals. The same book the use to justify hate of gays  is full of hetero multi partnered sex sanctioned by god.
There was Abraham, then King David, and go and read what happened next after god destroyed  Sodom, between Lot and his daughters.
 Since 50% of marriages end in divorce how different are str8 guys in controlling their sexual urges. I never heard a father tell his gay son to go sow his oats! While you have a right to your opinions do you make the same noise again on college students who also go for multi partners during spring break?  When this society gives us the right to marry then we can  be a little more judgemental on this topic. Men have been wired to spread their seed whether str8 or gay, so why don't we see the same caricature of str8 men?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 09:04:24 PM by alisenjafi »
"You shut your mouth
how can you say
I go about things the wrong way
I am human and I need to be loved
just like everybody else does"
The Smiths

Offline Iggy

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2006, 09:00:29 PM »
.



« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 09:27:31 PM by Iggy »

Offline carousel

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2006, 09:22:22 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 01:13:08 PM by carousel »

Offline Biggums

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2006, 09:55:11 PM »
Just wondering...............was this kind of behavior going on when Clinton was President or is this something new?
44 year old gay man .......just broke up with the only man I've ever really loved.

You can love completely without complete understanding.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2006, 10:41:48 PM »
Hal,

You should watch your mouth. I didn’t start name-calling. And you won’t drag me into name-calling. It’s none of your business where or from whom I got AIDS. I can assure you that it wasn't on a couch in the middle of a sex club.

My point here is that the action of a few sick-minded gays makes us all look bad. And the actions of those standing by and doing/saying nothing and even encouraging this type of behavior is wrong on so many levels it’s not funny.

There happens to still be some people in this world with moral standards. And yes, some of us are gay and don’t fit into your stereotypical gay, fag, effeminate, or fruity demeanor.

Personally, It sickens me when people (just because they are homosexuals) feel that it is necessary to make clowns out of themselves when in public.

Hal, I didn’t address my comment to you. I was addressing Jakes response and the originator of this thread. Who made you God/moderator of the forum???

There is nothing phony or two-faced about me. I truly believe in “Live and let live.” as well as “Respect your fellow man.” But if a small segment of the gay community puts a picture/image out into the public that reflects poorly on me due to my association in the gay community, then I have a right to say/do something. This type of behavior in no way reflects me or my lifestyle in any way shape or form.

Your sanctifying these kinds of actions causes me to be sick to my stomach.




And to answer you added comment. Those are your words not mine. In my opinion, you seriously have a problem and issues that you need to work out before you continue attacking people.



Terry I will say anything I damn well please and if you don't like it you can climb back under your gay self-hating rock. You were the one moralising my friend...not me. If you don't want a response to your posts then I suggest you use PM. I will continue to call it as I see it.

I know you truly believe in live and let live as long as it meets your standards. Getting aids behind closed doors with the candles lit and a bottle of Chardonnay changes nothing. I don't condone bathhouse behavior...but I will welcome the person who gets aids in a bathhouse and try not to judge.

I see you return to this site the way you left it, a self-loathing bitter homosexual. Too bad I can't welcome you back without judgement. 

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2006, 11:29:04 PM »
amen doxie

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2006, 04:04:39 AM »


  I wonder when Joe's turn was?



  LMAO.....  Yea Joe I go to 79th street where all the hookers are...  can you believe my case worker does not pop out behind the bushes to educate me on safe sex? 

   ;)
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Cliff

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2006, 04:54:39 AM »
I don't think we should judge the success or failure of America's HIV prevention campaign by the actions of a group of men at a sex club.  Maybe it's just me, but I would assume that if a group of guys are barebacking in a sex club, they are most likely guys who are HIV positive and already know their status.

No matter how successful our HIV prevention campaigns are, there will always be people who are infected with HIV.  I think the club did all that it could under the circumstances and what consenting adults do is their business.  Otherwise, to me the only other option is to close down all sex clubs.  But I doubt that would impact the HIV transmission rates very much, since 1) a very small % of the population actually visit those clubs (gay or straight) and 2) unprotected sex can take place anywhere....club or not.

Cliff

Offline Ann

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2006, 06:44:03 AM »
Maybe it's just me, but I would assume that if a group of guys are barebacking in a sex club, they are most likely guys who are HIV positive and already know their status.

Cliff

Hmmm... Unfortunately Cliff, I think your perception in this case might be skewed by the fact that you are hiv positive yourself. I think it is much more common for people who assume they are hiv negative also assume others are hiv negative - especially in this type of situation. I'm betting they'd be thinking - he wouldn't be on that couch with his ass in the air if he could be hiv positive and possibly passing his infection on.




By the way Hal, by all means, voice your opinion. But please do not resort to calling other posters "Phoney a-holes". Come on mate, you know there is a difference between adult debate and using inflammatory language.

And Jake, your characterisation of the people in the sex club as "animals" was a very poor choice of words. Even though human beings do belong to the animal kingdom, using this word in the context you did is also a case of inflammatory language. Please chose your words more carefully.

I'll thank everyone for thinking before you reply. By all means, let us know what you think about this subject, but leave the name-calling out. It's not that difficult to do and your argument will carry much more weight if you can voice it in a calm, reasonable manner without resorting to inflammatory language and/or name-calling.

Cheers,
Ann
 
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Moffie65

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2006, 06:55:23 AM »
I think that the fact that Joe has brought an illustration of how desperately far off our Prevention Messages have really gone "off mark", simply illustrates the same frustration that most of us share in this work.  I think Mark/Aztecan says it best in his post about the most recent clients he has been serving.  I have to tell all of you who are tearing at his illustration and missing the message; our last five clients have been women in the last month.  Guess what; one was 74!!!!!!

You guys can pick at the gay community all you want, but the truth still remains; we are in the middle of a pandemic that is spreading like wild fire, the Administration has stifiled the prevention message to one of benign ignorance.  I think what Joe is trying to simply point out here is that the general level of HIV prevention acceptance on the part of the general public is so far off from the reality that he witnessed here, that his frustration has become difficult to accept any more.  

I also agree that we need not keep the Gay Community as the central focus of the spread of this disease, as the data and facts still remain that most HIV infections always have been, and continue to be, in the straight community.  You cannot argue with the numbers.  Just because the CDC has focused primarily on the Gay Community, Injection Drug Users, and Minority Women; does not negate the true facts that this disease still is, and always has been, a predominantly Straight disease.  To accept anything else is to accept blindness to the real facts.

All that being said, to point fingers at Joe or anyone else here who has been involved in HIV Prevention work as much as he has, and still is; is an exercise in futility.  Please guys, we have to remember that most of us can be prevention advocates in some way or another, but no, it is far easier to eat our own than to face up to the fact that we hold the key to keep our neighbors informed and safe.  If a community knows the truth about HIV infection and then they proceed to kill themselves with dangerous sexual practices; then they are the ones that hold the key to their own safety, not the prevention advocates.  

On a reasonably logical tack on the other side, if the Administration's reasoning to promote Abstinence Only messages, dosen't really hit the mark and people are left in a state of total confusion about this disease, due mainly to the fact the the message is "off target"; then it stands to reason that the Administration's message is not really going to do diddley to help prevent the spread of this virus among the population at large.  The new guidelines for prevention and testing, and the raping of Ryan White to bolster the coffers of the already puffed purse strings of the CDC, show that this Adminsitration is blind, and not capable of handling a catastrophic pandemic.  We can argue among ourselves till the cows make an attempt to come home, yet in the end, only the government can do anything really positive in the spread of this disease, and folks, I don't see anything happening that will address the real issues, until this Mentally Challenged leader and all his cronies are far from the White House.  

That is not happening for another two years, so we sit here and fight amongst ourselves until then?  I certainly hope not, because in the next two years we could go from 1.2 million infections to 2 million (domesticaly) and where are we in the fight?  We must all do our best to keep telling people about the disease and to keep themselves from getting infected.  The only way to do that is one person at a time.  If all the members of this forum would tell two people a week, how not to get infected, then in a years' time, that would expose tens of thousands of people to the true prevention message that might save their lives.

The alternative?

In Love, and Support of Prevention sanity.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Dachshund

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2006, 07:24:19 AM »
" fag,effeminate,fruity demeanor,just because they are homosexual,animals,low life's,queen,sick-minded gays"...and I shouldn't resort to name calling?

I am fed up with some members taking the opportunity to paint the gay community with a broad brush. I truly believe if some of these same members were not HIV positive they would be the first ones to say, "you deserve it."

Taking Joe's thread out of context to attack, hides the real agenda.

Maybe diverting a few bucks from the war machine some members have a hard-on for, and putting it towards education and prevention just might be a start. Unfortunately, that would leave no time for moralising.

Peace

[
« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 02:14:07 PM by Dachshund »

Offline Moffie65

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2006, 07:34:14 AM »
I truly believe if some of these same members were not HIV positive they would be the first ones to say, "you deserve it."

Hal,

This is why we must keep the message clear and against the virus.  I have also noticed a particular bent here to place the Gay Community on the Pedistal of Blame, but we must all keep in mind that for the forseeable future, at least until most of us old gays die off, the rest of society will continue to place us in a position of blame for the spread of this disease.  Please remember, the bulk of society are sheep and when the sheep are told that all the blame for the wolves is the pink sheep, then it stands to reason, that the pink sheep will continue to take the fall for attracting the wolves.

Just my thoughts.

In Love.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 07:35:50 AM by Moffie65 »
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Joe K

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2006, 12:18:43 PM »
This post illustrates my point exactly.  Here we have a cross-section of this forum commenting and the responses cover a very wide range and that is why our prevention messages do not work, because we cannot take the loathing and judgment out of sex and instead focus on protecting people.  I appreciate the fact that many of you spoke your mind and here is what I see from some of the answers.

Probably the first would be that we need to take the morality out of sexual conduct.  When you judge the actions of others, it becomes far too easy to then view any offender as deserving of any consequence due to their immoral behavior.  There is no morality concern sex.  The morality comes in when you disclose your status so as not to infect another.  It also comes into play if know someone who is recklessly attempting to spread HIV.  Morality dictates that we act reasonably toward our fellow humans and should expect the same in return.  When you attach morality to sex, you cloud the whole picture.  A sexual act is rarely right or wrong, it is the mentality of the participants that counts and that is where we have to focus our messages.

The Gay Community is too entrenched with HIV and it will take decades before the "stigma" of HIV as a gay disease goes away, because far too many people need someone to blame this all on and who better than those "damn faggots".  Face it the stigma is there and to ignore that reality will just diminish how we choose to get our prevention messages.

This leads to the fallacy that sex clubs and baths, etc., promote unsafe sex.  Come on folks, we have all been here before with the bath fiascoes in New York and San Francisco.  Close the public places and the sex just goes underground.  I would rather these venues stay intact so at least we could get the message out to some people who go to them.  Anyone who has done prevention work will tell you that all the money in the world will not help if you do not have anywhere to promote such messages.  We need more honest talk about how the Gay community deals with HIV, unsafe sex, drugs, alcohol and other issues that face our community.  Again, this is not an issue of judging anyone but promoting safer sexual practices.

Successful prevention programs can and do exist, with England and Holland being prime examples.  When we went into the bars or clubs in London there was a RACK OF MATERIALS on STDs, HIV, Drug Abuse, etc. and there were almost 15 different little booklets covering subjects of concern to the gay community.  Same with Holland, information is everywhere, even on billboards and public squares because to them, HIV is a disease and as such the public needs to be educated to be protected.  I wonder which part of that simple philosophy our government is unable to grasp?  I think the part about HIV being just a disease and not some form of Divine retribution for heinous sexual acts.

All of this is why I urge you to support leaders who will actually do something to help the negative population stay that way.  My plea remains simple because all the strides we have made in prevention are being dismantled by this administration and in case any of you have forgotten, it is much harder to get back what we have lost than to retain what little we have.

If we refuse to support effective prevention information, in a way, we will be passing on our HIV infection, through ignorance.

Offline Teresa

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2006, 12:32:42 PM »
I have a question.

If there are condoms and lube available for free at these sex clubs and they are not used. Then what makes you think that they would pick up a pamphlet on STDs and HIV prevention and read it?

I agree that there needs to be more awareness out there. I couldn't believe how ignorant I was about HIV when hubby was diagnosed. But the one thing I did know was condoms prevented the transmission of HIV. That's the only thing I did know about HIV.

Hugs
Teresa
Hubby HIV+ 5/5/06
CD4:320
  %: 26.7
 VL: <20
Atripla (started it 8/24/06)
 

Offline Cliff

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2006, 01:24:03 PM »
Like Teresa, I too wonder what more the club could have done, or even the gay community, to prevent this?  I also wonder if this is a common occurrence at sex clubs? 

If it's a common occurrence, then does it make sense to close them down, (if indeed the behaviour is determined to be costly to society)?  And if it isn't a common occurrence, can you chalk it up to irresponsible behaviour that can happen anywhere, behaviour that is difficult, if not impossible, to prevent completely?

Offline Moffie65

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2006, 01:40:53 PM »
If it's a common occurrence, then does it make sense to close them down, (if indeed the behaviour is determined to be costly to society)?  And if it isn't a common occurrence, can you chalk it up to irresponsible behaviour that can happen anywhere, behaviour that is difficult, if not impossible, to prevent completely?

Cliff,

I want to take this comment and place it in the context of a Capitalistic Society.

If people are killing people by dirinking and driving, then should we go the next step and prevent the sale of alcohol to everyone?
If people are shooting other people, should we then ban the sale of guns and ammo in Walmart?

It is so very easy to deal justice to a problem by simply banning the sale of any comodity, however, we all know that the behaviors of people will not change if things become banned.  Usually just the opposite occurs.  If there is a capitol need for people to have a meeting place to drink, shoot guns, or indulge in sex, then it follows that someone will provide that place and make money in the process.  The behavior is something which still "requires" the responsibility of the person entering such establishments.  When you go to a shooting range, you don't shoot the other people there, you shoot the target.  When you drink in public, you do so responsibily so that others will not become victims of your drinking.  When you go to a place to indulge in sex, you do so responsibly, to save others the exposure that might be dangerous to them.

Personal responsibility is the grease which promotes the functioning of a Capitalistic Democracy, and when it becomes absent, you have anarchy.

Just my thoughts.

In Love.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2006, 02:20:25 PM »
Closing baths, sex clubs or bars are not going to stop people who want to have condomless sex from doing it. To me there are two different populations to address: the people who know little or nothing about HIV and the people who know about safer sex and sharing needles and just are not doing it. Unlike the current US administration I don't think the goal is to stop people from having sex but to stop the transmission of HIV.

BTW, when people start ranting and name-calling on here they are just advertising their own fears and insecurities.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 03:06:47 PM by GSOgymrat »

Offline Cliff

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2006, 02:44:28 PM »
I don't think they should close down sex clubs.  But if the expectation is that there should be no unprotected sex in a sex club, then I don't know how you could accomplish that (100%) without resorting to closing sex clubs.  To me, the expectation that there should be no unprotected sex in a sex club is probably unrealistic.

That's not to say that the HIV prevention campaigns are 100% effective.  I just believe that other stats, (say increasing HIV infections), is more indicative of our ineffective HIV prevention campaigns than a group of gay men having unprotected sex in a sex club.

Offline penguin

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2006, 02:46:04 PM »
 I just did a v.quick, highly unscientific poll via text of assorted boys I know, various ages, & none of them have ever used a safer sex leaflet from bars/clubs for anything other than scribbling phone numbers on or possibly, possibly, brand-name-cola related activities…

Yes, make condoms and lube and information available to people. After that point though, people are gonna make whatever choices they going to make.

Kate

Offline Eldon

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2006, 09:14:33 PM »

If people are killing people by drinking and driving, then should we go the next step and prevent the sale of alcohol to everyone?

If people are shooting other people, should we then ban the sale of guns and ammo in Walmart?

Just stop a moment and think about this statement. Before Alcohol was legalized, they did what was called running shine, and that did not stop them. Closing the Bars and the clubs would only send it to the underground just as Joe has mentioned.

The BEST thing that we can do is to educate the general population on awareness and prevention. Just like they advertise "tide" on the commercials, they should do the same with "HIV" when it comes to prevention.

Offline Terry

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2006, 11:28:55 PM »
Eldon,


 
Edited/deleted so as not to offend anyone. Sorry about that.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:05:46 AM by Terry »

Offline Jeff64

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2006, 01:17:42 PM »
I choose to mind my own business. If that ass-in-the-air kook wants to risk his life, that is his perogative. 

It is his life, not ours.

Jeff, who always demands a rubber

Offline ademas

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Re: So what do we do now?
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2006, 01:36:52 PM »
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Forgive the simple idiom, but it's true in this case. 

The unconscionable action on our part (or on the part of our government) would be not leading the horse to a good water source, and it could be argued that the abstinence-only mindset of Bushco is doing just that.

 


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