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Author Topic: creation or choice, why does it matter?  (Read 1582 times)

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Offline zach

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creation or choice, why does it matter?
« on: May 08, 2011, 08:04:02 PM »
This is a question I've wondered for some time. I've always felt that the argument that God made us this way was at best an unnecessary defense in the absence of a crime, at worst a counter productive red herring. In a tactic to get equal treatment under the law, the argument has taken on a tone of "we can't help it, we were born this way" Making it similar to the color of your skin. What if I have chosen to have sex with men? Does choice make the behavior wrong, does creation validate the behavior? The whole line of argument sounds to me like a way of rationalizing something "wrong" and to even be pulled into that argument means acknowledging to some degree that there is something "wrong" in the first place, which I do not.

I don't care either way. And I don't understand why it matters either way? Does anyone think the other side will suddenly embrace gays because we can't "help" the way we are?

I don't get into all the details of my perverted sexual appetites with most people, but for the record I'd say I'm a straight leaning bisexual with a 60/40 split.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 08:06:55 PM by zach »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2011, 08:42:30 PM »
This is a question I've wondered for some time. I've always felt that the argument that God made us this way was at best an unnecessary defense in the absence of a crime, at worst a counter productive red herring. In a tactic to get equal treatment under the law, the argument has taken on a tone of "we can't help it, we were born this way" Making it similar to the color of your skin. What if I have chosen to have sex with men? Does choice make the behavior wrong, does creation validate the behavior? The whole line of argument sounds to me like a way of rationalizing something "wrong" and to even be pulled into that argument means acknowledging to some degree that there is something "wrong" in the first place, which I do not.

I don't care either way. And I don't understand why it matters either way? Does anyone think the other side will suddenly embrace gays because we can't "help" the way we are?

I don't get into all the details of my perverted sexual appetites with most people, but for the record I'd say I'm a straight leaning bisexual with a 60/40 split.

It's funny you raise this. Just the other day in another forum I encountered a gay chap who was speculating on a related theme. If homosexuality is immoral but the homosexual himself is not what role does he have to play in the life of the church?

He said:

I don't have a problem with the word "disordered" at all, since I believe it accurately describes my sexual desires. It's also important to note that Fr. Martin is incorrect in the bold statement above: the Church does not say that "we are objectively disordered." It would never say such a thing, and never has said that, but people jump on that one word out of complete proportion and take grave offense that this word is used to describe something within them.

If I have a disorder in my health, I don't take offense at hearing this. I do view my same sex attraction as reflection of the fall of man and believe that it is disordered and take no offense at the term. I often wonder if the offense people take at the phrase is because they feel umbrage that the Church would dare say such a thing about something in their lives.

I've never understood the visceral reaction to that one phrase that so many people with same sex attraction feel, when I embrace it fully as accurately describing what I see in my attractions. I think it's the most healthy and honest of views about same sex attraction.


This, I think, offers an interesting insight into how some devoutly believing homosexuals view themselves with respect to their faith and whilst tangential to the OP is still relevant to this dicussion.

Note that the quote I've posted reflects the catholic position on homosexuality and homosexuals. The "Fr Martin" referred to is a Jesuit who apparently questions not church doctrine per se but where that doctrine leaves churched queers.

MtD

Offline Ann

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 09:14:37 PM »

I don't get into all the details of my perverted sexual appetites with most people, but for the record I'd say I'm a straight leaning bisexual with a 60/40 split.

And maybe you were just made that way? I identify with the same 60/40 split and I feel I was just made, or "wired", if you will, this way. Let's take "God" out of the equation and say I was born this way and leave it at that.

I've never looked at it as though I "can't help it". I look at it as This Is The Way I Am. I may identify as bi, but I do NOT identify as a victim.

It just is, ok?

And yes, it matters. I was made this way; don't take away my human rights or make me subhuman because of it.
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Offline Ann

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 09:17:39 PM »
And a further thought occurs to me....

One might say that as a bi person, I have the choice to have sex with either men or women.

What I do NOT, have NOT had a choice in is the fact that I am sexually attracted to both men and women.

Therein lies the difference.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline zach

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 09:44:22 PM »
There may be a difference, but I don't think it should matter. The freedom to love/marry/screw who I choose for whatever reason I choose shouldn't give someone else the ability to take away any of my human rights. Its nobody's business, it's freedom.

Somehow to me, it sounds like "i can't help it, it's not my fault" which absolves us of any responsibilty. In order to buy into that, I think you first have to accept, in some small way, that it is a negative thing we're talking about. I don't accept that. The unspoken flip side to that is, if it is a choice, we would choose not to be this way, because it is a negative thing. I don't accept that either.

And Matty, I've heard that same sentiment expressed as "love the sinner, hate the sin" which speaks volumes about acceptance. What I hear when that is said is "You can be gay, just don't do gay, and everything will be fine."

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 09:57:09 PM »
There may be a difference, but I don't think it should matter. The freedom to love/marry/screw who I choose for whatever reason I choose shouldn't give someone else the ability to take away any of my human rights. Its nobody's business, it's freedom.

Somehow to me, it sounds like "i can't help it, it's not my fault" which absolves us of any responsibilty. In order to buy into that, I think you first have to accept, in some small way, that it is a negative thing we're talking about. I don't accept that. The unspoken flip side to that is, if it is a choice, we would choose not to be this way, because it is a negative thing. I don't accept that either.

And Matty, I've heard that same sentiment expressed as "love the sinner, hate the sin" which speaks volumes about acceptance. What I hear when that is said is "You can be gay, just don't do gay, and everything will be fine."

This is, then, the old "nature vs nurture" debate perhaps?

If we look beyond our species we find many examples of homosexual behaviour, and not just amongst primates and other higher mammals.

Consider the numerous reports of gay penguins.

Do these creatures make conscious choices to indulge in same sex couplings or is this conduct merely the expression of their (individual) natures?

My guess is that for humans it's a bit of both. We all have predispositions upon which we act but how we act is, to some extent, dictated by our circumstances.

An extreme example is "homosexuality of convenience" -- most commonly noted in prison populations.

MtD

Offline Jody

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 10:00:08 PM »
Some years back I remember reading about a young man who it was said had the clarity of existence to be able to enjoy sex with either men or women at a time when ALL people were believed to be either homosexual or heterosexual (and should just stay that way damnit!-LOL).  

In today's generation we see some young people calling themselves the "whatever" generation, and I find that to be very cool.  Why do we always have labels for everything, like we are canned soup on the supermarket shelf.  We are all kind of victims of Freud if you will.

But I rmember my old roommate, friend and mentor Les, a very intellignet man with very eclectic tastes, and he once said that everyone was homosexual or heterosexual and can in no way be biologically bi-sexual.  I wonder if he would change his mind if he were alive today.

Jody (who liked 25 year old guys when he was 15, 25, 35, 45 and now 55!!!)
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Offline bocker3

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2011, 10:42:12 PM »
I think it matters because some would try to "fix" the choice.  Hell, people have been trying to "fix" their kids of homosexuality forever.  So, the reason this matters is that, creation means "not fixable".  I'm not saying that the gay person would want to fix (although, some might), rather it is others trying to put a gay person "right".

That is why it matters.  Should it matter -- no, but, alas, it DOES.

Mike
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Offline thunter34

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2011, 11:29:53 PM »
This is part of why I say that I would claim bisexuality on principle - even if I hadn't ever had experience with both sexes.  I wish everybody was bisexual, frankly.  I've written at length about this elsewhere (and probably here as well, buried somewhere in the old post logs).

I grew up with people telling me I had to be heterosexual.  Then I had homosexuals telling me I should only be with other men, and that I was confused or hiding or some other bullshit if I ever pursued female relationships.  I spent a great deal of my younger life trying to figure how to make my love life satisfy everybody else until it finally dawned on me that everybody else can take a flying leap.

I wish I'd figured it out much sooner.  It would have saved me a whole world of grief.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 12:40:42 AM »
I've gotten into debates with old friends who knew me when I had girlfriends and was having heterosexual sex.  Some of them first believed I was just in a gay phase when I first starting dating/having sex with men.  After that, they thought some girl must have broken my heart and that turned me off from women.  Well, that did actually happen, but I don't believe that causes someone to like dick.  I would get responses that I'm too masculine to be gay--even though on a scale from 1-10 with 10 being very masculine, I'm about a 7.  Most of these responses came from female friends--probably because my straight male friends didn't want to go there.  Some always look for some explanation, but no one wonders why someone is straight. 

There are some who believe my brother and I are both gay, because we spent a lot of time with our gay uncle.  They find it odd that we would both be gay, so something environmental must have caused it.  We both as pre-teens found all his gay porn magazines.  I've often wondered whether some sexuality is determined by the first thing that turned you on.  But, I'm pretty sure I found my Dad's Playboy mags way before that and saw straight porn videos before that.  And, even before I found his gay porn, I remember having crushes on male TV stars when I was 5.  I remember some show (think "Trapper John, M.D.") where the male docs were showering.  At 5 years-old, I remember being excited.  And, my uncle had a bf who was a marine.  Around 5, I remember being turned on by him and enjoyed when he picked me up and put me on his shoulders.  If he only knew..lol.  It is strange.  I don't think I thought about actual sexual things about his boyfriend, but just knew I liked something about him.  But, again, why does it matter.  We both are gay now and both of us are in long-term relationships.  So, why try to explain why things are the way they are?  They just are. 

Since there is nothing wrong with being gay, it shouldn't matter even if some environmental factors tilted our sexuality toward the gay side.  I still don't believe that is the case anyway.  I am more likely to believe there is just a gay gene running strongly in our family.  There have been several gays on both sides of the family.  There have been so many in the family that we often joke that maybe mother nature is trying to weed our family out by having so many gays.

Offline mecch

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 04:15:00 AM »
In a tactic to get equal treatment under the law, the argument has taken on a tone of "we can't help it, we were born this way" Making it similar to the color of your skin. What if I have chosen to have sex with men? Does choice make the behavior wrong, does creation validate the behavior? The whole line of argument sounds to me like a way of rationalizing something "wrong" and to even be pulled into that argument means acknowledging to some degree that there is something "wrong" in the first place, which I do not.

Yes yours is an interesting perspective. Freedom to pursue your sexuality is a different issue than the explanation for your sexuality.  I'm sure some are born gay, bi, hetero. (nature) I'm sure there are some people who chose, for whatever reason.  It shouldn't matter the explanation or the choice or identity. What is important is equal rights and tolerance.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 02:03:27 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline poz91

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 09:43:44 AM »
I personally feel that folks are far too hung up on the "sex" of it all when it comes to discussing choice versus being born this way...

It may be true that while the boy next door was drooling over his father's Playboy collection, I was drooling over his father getting ready for soccer practice...

...but it's also true that I was coveting another neighbor's (a girl) A-frame Barbie Dream House while the other boys in the neighborhood were blowing up GI Joe's and C3PO's in their backyards.

There are many ways that I am different from the "typical" male, sex being only one of them, and I would imagine that most folks realize that I'm "gay" long before they know for certain that I'm "homosexual."

Offline wolfter

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Re: creation or choice, why does it matter?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2011, 10:05:35 AM »
I watched "History of Sex" on TLC and attitudes play into our sexuality as much as anything.  In some ancient cultures, same sex relationships were readily accepted and it was a status symbol to have a quality boyfriend to play with when not procreating with their wives. 

I made the choice to be straight for a while and that didn't really work out real well.  For me, that was an unnatural act.  I even had a counselor suggest to me that I was a victim of molestation because of my age when I had my first sexcapade.  I was probably too young, but I made that choice and continued to make that choice whenever possible.  He was an older neighborhood teenager and I made myself available to him whenever possible. 

And since I'm agnostic, I can't use the God made me that way explanation.   And since I remember having sexual attraction to boys and men at a very young age, I've always figured it was innate.
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

 


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