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Author Topic: Legal Situation  (Read 10680 times)

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Offline Joe K

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2011, 08:52:29 PM »
You can never ask someone to do something, that they are unwilling to do for themselves.  It is much easier to delude yourself, than do the hard work necessary to overcome your own demons.  It is even harder, when you simply refuse to consider that there is more than one possible answer to any question.  Metekrop does not care what any of us think, because he refuses to consider any other option.  As much as I would like to help, I have nothing to offer, because anything we say certainly falls on deaf ears.

One of the hardest things in the world to do, is to suggest to a martyr that they may be wrong.  They need the feelings, that eat at them, because at least then they know they are still alive.  What is saddest about cases like these, is the guilt, shame and anger are solely of his making and there is nothing you can say, that will cause him to reconsider how he feels.  Doing so only angers him, because he has defined his own miserable reality and he resents that others do not share his misery.

He holds the power to change his views.  He simply chooses not to use it, or to even consider if he should.

Offline BJS2011

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2011, 11:36:18 PM »
I am so sorry to hear this. What is wrong with people. Geez!!

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2011, 03:22:39 AM »
I just wanted to point that this comparison is a bit unfortunate. For the lung cancer patients, or heart attack victims avoiding this require a change of lifestyle, but for getting HIV you don't need to change anything of your lifestyle, just remember the condoms. Only 20 minutes of unprotected sex (even less) is required to get the damn virus, opposed to years of eating poorly or smoking.

No man, I think it's a valid comparison in the sense that people take risks and make mistakes/choices which they know may have harmful consequences.

If anything, going by your logic, it can also be argued that the fact that it was a one time 20 minute mistake for some is all the more reason to forgive yourself and move on. At least you are not repeating the mistake everytime you burn your lungs with a cigarette.

If one is looking to split hairs in every rational viewpoint to find additional reasons to fall back into a pit of despair, guilt and self-pity then there is only so much that others can say, because it is only you who can pull yourself out of it. I think most of us have been there immediately after our diagnosis and know what it feels like.
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline buginme2

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2011, 04:38:32 AM »


If anything, going by your logic, it can also be argued that the fact that it was a one time 20 minute mistake for some is all the more reason to forgive yourself and move on. At least you are not repeating the mistake everytime you burn your lungs with a cigarette.



Good point!!

There may be a cultural thing going on here as well.  Metro may be coming from a different place were sex (or gay sex for that matter) could be viewed with contempt. 

Regardless if you get lung cancer from smoking, cervical cancer from the hpv virus(also sexually transmitted), or heart disease from not enough exercise, you really need to get to the point where you can forgive yourself for being human, for being imperfect. To hold yourself responsible for a disease to me seems overwhelming.  I hope you can find it within you to forgive yourself metro!  Lifes too short!

Offline bocker3

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2011, 07:27:10 AM »
By your own admission you did something stupid and that is a kind of things I am talking about.  You said you didn't use condom.  When was the teaching on use of condom start to surface in the world?  I hope you start treatment in year 2005.  May be you were infected at about the same time when so many people are falling down of this disease partly because they fail to use condom like you. 

I got the virus sometime back in 1993 or 1994.  That is long time when it is compare with yours.  A person like me can say I fail to use condom, that time.  But there is no any rational justification for a person like you to say I fail to do sex without condom after ten twelve years.  Who gave you that stupidity when so many medias in the world are preaching about the use of condom?  Hope you watch TV, listen to radios, read newspaper, go to church, school etc etc.  Yea, you can scream loud that this is just like a cold virus.  Okay, let it be for you. But the fact of the matter still remains in every body of us who are paying the hard cost of this stupidity.  To say HIV is like cold Virus is itself misleading concept to common young adult folks out there which we should be careful. 

However, you can say that I need mental health specialist but I can tell you that no one here have a moral background to tell me that I need a mental health specialist where he himself is in a big social and physiological mess.


There is a rational justification -- and many others have said it too -- that "justificaiton" is that I AM A HUMAN BEING AND I MAKE MISTAKES.  So don't come at me with your accusations and try and heap your guilt and shame on to me.  I don't subscribe to your view of the world and I won't accept your shame.  There is a difference between "being stupid" and wallowing in guilt.  I can admit that my infection is my own fault -- but it's done, can't be undone and the fact that I had a stupid moment (or several) doesn't make me a bad person.  I am choosing to forgive myself and get on with living my life with a sense of joy.
If you have been living with this virus for as long as you have and still harbor all this shame and guilt -- well, I daresay that there is little hope for you -- because you refuse to do anything to move past it.

So -- if you want to live in guilt and shame, then please do so -- but don't you dare toss any of it on me.

Hoping you find peace some day,
Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Raf

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2011, 07:43:00 AM »
No man, I think it's a valid comparison in the sense that people take risks and make mistakes/choices which they know may have harmful consequences.

If anything, going by your logic, it can also be argued that the fact that it was a one time 20 minute mistake for some is all the more reason to forgive yourself and move on. At least you are not repeating the mistake everytime you burn your lungs with a cigarette.

If one is looking to split hairs in every rational viewpoint to find additional reasons to fall back into a pit of despair, guilt and self-pity then there is only so much that others can say, because it is only you who can pull yourself out of it. I think most of us have been there immediately after our diagnosis and know what it feels like.

Yeah, but there's one point that bothers me. A change in the lifestyle (stop eating so much, stop smoking) most of time requires strong will and commitment, and many people fail at the attempt, but hell, just say no to sex without condoms is not rocket science or need a strong effort to do so.

Unlike Met, I'm not saying anything about anyone regarding this, if you have come to terms with this, it's fine by me. I just cannot admit I had that mistake, specially when I was so strict regarding this subject (again, a failure as you see). This was, to the very least, a flaw of my character, and something I'm not proud or anything.

I tried to forgive myself, but this come back to me again...and again. It's been 3 years after my Dx and it feels like it was yesterday.
Dx: 05/14/2008
Latest HIV Meds combo I've been taking:

Kaletra + Combivir (since 05/16/2008 - today)

Offline buginme2

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2011, 08:18:44 AM »
If you want to blame yourself for contracting HIV fine.  After all you had unprotected sex.

But how long are you going to punish yourself for your mistake?  What is a proper punishment?  Met you said you got HIV in 1993.  Have you been punishing yourself over this for 18 years then?  Does the punishment fit the crime?  How long do you (or anyone else whos punishing themselves over this) need to feel guilty over it?  Even prisoners get out of jail at some point.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2011, 08:30:03 AM »
Yeah, but there's one point that bothers me. A change in the lifestyle (stop eating so much, stop smoking) most of time requires strong will and commitment, and many people fail at the attempt, but hell, just say no to sex without condoms is not rocket science or need a strong effort to do so.

Unlike Met, I'm not saying anything about anyone regarding this, if you have come to terms with this, it's fine by me. I just cannot admit I had that mistake, specially when I was so strict regarding this subject (again, a failure as you see). This was, to the very least, a flaw of my character, and something I'm not proud or anything.

I tried to forgive myself, but this come back to me again...and again. It's been 3 years after my Dx and it feels like it was yesterday.

It is hard to forgive yourself for a mistake that has permanent consequences,  no denying that- but it is not impossible.

In my case, I used condoms consistently and still managed to get infected somehow. I may think it was oral sex or a broken condom or whatever but I will never know for certain how exactly it happened.  I can assure you that getting infected despite being careful does not make the pain any less.

My counselor shared something very enlightening with me. She said it is a public health problem and therefore assigning blame on someone else or even yourself is counterproductive and unhealthy. Many people get infected despite being careful for several years and conversely many people do not get infected despite being callous with their health. What happens, happens.

Have you tried talking to a professional mental health therapist? Just talking about my feelings helped me.

We know that we can not change our status, what we can change is our attitude.
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline metekrop

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2011, 09:41:04 AM »
If you want to blame yourself for contracting HIV fine.  After all you had unprotected sex.

But how long are you going to punish yourself for your mistake?  What is a proper punishment?  Met you said you got HIV in 1993.  Have you been punishing yourself over this for 18 years then?  Does the punishment fit the crime?  How long do you (or anyone else whos punishing themselves over this) need to feel guilty over it?  Even prisoners get out of jail at some point.

My friend, I didnít say I have punished myself for doing bad.  What in fact I said was that I kept on living my life in denial up to the days in year 2008.  The eighteen years I spend after possible infection were full of joy and normal life.  No test for HIV, No condom, no nothing over all these years.   My punishment may then be of my falling down of a disease and coming to death at the end of December of 2008.  It is on this day that I paid the price for all of the mistakes I was making in the past which of course is the end result of the whole show. 

Now I am saying when I think of the days I spend during and after 1993/94, I feel awful and horrible and the things I did were full of shame.  Standing now on my two feats looking at my back, there is no way that I might say that those day were fantastically wonderful.  And even worst of all I canít minimize the thing happened in my life now by saying HIV is the same as cold Virus.  Once again let me remind you that the denilist people were saying that HIV is a passenger virus that does not do any harm to the human body.  The reason may be I am saying this it is because I ALMOST FACE DEATH and it is this experience that makes me different from you guys.  And also it is this experience that shape up my view of myself and the problem I am in.

Anyways now I came to believe that everyone here has his own view which he is entitled to.  I will no more come to this thread for discussion.  Next week Tuesday I have doctor appointment where I will be having a lab test.  Hope me good result on the lab.  This is always what worries me.   
 ;D
Diag on Dec 8, 2000, CD 440 VL 44K, No Meds
Dec/08 - Feb/09 CD< 50 & VL >500k hosp'z.
St. Atripla - July/09 CD 179, VL 197k
Oct/09 CD 300 VL UD Chol 267
Mar/10 CD 468 UD, Ch 220
Aug/10 CD 460 UD, Ch 195
Dec/10 CD 492 UD, Ch 172
Mar/11 CD 636 UD, Ch 201
Aug/11 CD 530 UD, Ch 98
Jan/12 cd 616 UD, ch 189
Jul/12 CD 640 UD, Ch ?
Dec/12 CD 669 Ud, Ch 125
May/7 CD711 Ud, Ch?
Nov/ 22 663 UD, Ch,
April 17 CD 797, UD

Offline Joe K

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2011, 10:47:32 AM »
Now I am saying when I think of the days I spend during and after 1993/94, I feel awful and horrible and the things I did were full of shame.  Standing now on my two feats looking at my back, there is no way that I might say that those day were fantastically wonderful.  And even worst of all I canít minimize the thing happened in my life now by saying HIV is the same as cold Virus.  Once again let me remind you that the denilist people were saying that HIV is a passenger virus that does not do any harm to the human body.  The reason may be I am saying this it is because I ALMOST FACE DEATH and it is this experience that makes me different from you guys.  And also it is this experience that shape up my view of myself and the problem I am in.

Try as I might, I cannot understand what you are trying to say.  What denialists said about HIV does not matter, because they lied.  You facing death from your infection, does not make you different from us, it makes you just the same, as many of us have faced such adversity, often for years at a time.  What makes you different, is you are unwilling to even consider some of the points presented and as I said before, there is nothing we can say to encourage you to reconsider how your view yourself.  You seem to enjoy wallowing in misery of your own making and all we can offer is the hope that someday you may change.

What I find saddest about your situation, is that you do not have to live like this, but as always, real change can only come from within.


Offline metekrop

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2011, 11:39:26 AM »
Try as I might, I cannot understand what you are trying to say.  What denialists said about HIV does not matter, because they lied.  You facing death from your infection, does not make you different from us, it makes you just the same, as many of us have faced such adversity, often for years at a time.  What makes you different, is you are unwilling to even consider some of the points presented and as I said before, there is nothing we can say to encourage you to reconsider how your view yourself.  You seem to enjoy wallowing in misery of your own making and all we can offer is the hope that someday you may change.

What I find saddest about your situation, is that you do not have to live like this, but as always, real change can only come from within.



One more time, the denilist view of Hiv was not simply because they are liars.  But they were deadly wrong.  Hope you understand me when I say wrong doing as opposed to a lie.  They did wrong because of the illusive nature of the virus.  They were/are not ordinary people like me.  Some of them were noble prize winners and great personalities of our world. I donít think it would be fair to say that these people are flat liars.  

I say also the fact that I face death make my view of the problem different from that of yours.  I donít know about you and most of the people here.  But I firmly believe that a person who knows well about death by having less than 50 CD and whole lot of VL and OIs do have the same perception of life like a person who have a CD count of 600/700 up on diagnosis for disease.  Why you guys have to secluded this forum into LTS and others?  The answer is mainly because you attempt to reflect this reality.

So, if any person who went into that kind of ordeal tries to minimize the problem by saying I never ever think of my infection, I say he must have gotten a problem.  And this is how the whole issue of comparing the HIV to cold virus, being indifference about the past etc etc came up. Thank you.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:39:38 PM by metekrop »
Diag on Dec 8, 2000, CD 440 VL 44K, No Meds
Dec/08 - Feb/09 CD< 50 & VL >500k hosp'z.
St. Atripla - July/09 CD 179, VL 197k
Oct/09 CD 300 VL UD Chol 267
Mar/10 CD 468 UD, Ch 220
Aug/10 CD 460 UD, Ch 195
Dec/10 CD 492 UD, Ch 172
Mar/11 CD 636 UD, Ch 201
Aug/11 CD 530 UD, Ch 98
Jan/12 cd 616 UD, ch 189
Jul/12 CD 640 UD, Ch ?
Dec/12 CD 669 Ud, Ch 125
May/7 CD711 Ud, Ch?
Nov/ 22 663 UD, Ch,
April 17 CD 797, UD

Offline AlanBama

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2011, 02:39:09 PM »

I say also the fact that I face death make my view of the problem different from that of yours.  I don’t know about you and most of the people here.  But I firmly believe that a person who knows well about death by having less than 50 CD and whole lot of VL and OIs do have the same perception of life like a person who have a CD count of 600/700 up on diagnosis for disease.  Why you guys have to secluded this forum into LTS and others?  The answer is mainly because you attempt to reflect this reality.

I think you are very confused, and hope you can get some help with your issues.   The LTS forum has nothing to do with people's CD4 counts, and when you say your perception is different from ours because we haven't faced death, you're just plain wrong.  Many of us have, repeatedly.
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline Joe K

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2011, 03:01:53 PM »
One more time, the denilist view of Hiv was not simply because they are liars.  But they were deadly wrong.  Hope you understand me when I say wrong doing as opposed to a lie.  They did wrong because of the illusive nature of the virus.  They were/are not ordinary people like me.  Some of them were noble prize winners and great personalities of our world. I donít think it would be fair to say that these people are flat liars.  

I say also the fact that I face death make my view of the problem different from that of yours.  I donít know about you and most of the people here.  But I firmly believe that a person who knows well about death by having less than 50 CD and whole lot of VL and OIs do have the same perception of life like a person who have a CD count of 600/700 up on diagnosis for disease.  Why you guys have to secluded this forum into LTS and others?  The answer is mainly because you attempt to reflect this reality.

So, if any person who went into that kind of ordeal tries to minimize the problem by saying I never ever think of my infection, I say he must have gotten a problem.  And this is how the whole issue of comparing the HIV to cold virus, being indifference about the past etc etc came up. Thank you.

Sorry I cannot agree that denialists were not liars, because they knew what they said was not the truth.  Try as you might, you cannot put a positive spin on AIDS denialists, because they do spread lies concerning HIV and we lost a member to those lies just last year.

I am also stunned that you think you have suffered more than others, or that it takes a near death experience for people to grasp the gravity of their infection.  Your CD4s dropped to 50, WOW, try living with just 4 of them.  You faced death?  How many times?  How many months or years have you spent in a hospital?  My point is that none of this matters, because it has no affect on how you perceive your infection.  Rather than considering other viewpoints, you attempt to use the "I've been sicker than you" to explain your irrational behavior.

You are welcome to your delusions, but don't you ever say that folks here do not understand what it is like to look Death squarely in the eyes.  The difference however, is we learned that surviving involves being honest with who and what we are.  Wallowing in self pity is easy.  Demeaning others is a way to deflect criticism.  What takes a real backbone, is facing your demons and not allowing them to dictate how you feel, or worse, dictate how you live your life.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 03:03:43 PM by killfoile »

Offline Raf

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Re: Legal Situation
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2011, 07:30:28 PM »
One more time, the denilist view of Hiv was not simply because they are liars.  But they were deadly wrong.  Hope you understand me when I say wrong doing as opposed to a lie.  They did wrong because of the illusive nature of the virus.  They were/are not ordinary people like me.  Some of them were noble prize winners and great personalities of our world. I donít think it would be fair to say that these people are flat liars.

Wrong their asses, how could someone who "looked straight to the eyes of death" would even suggest they are just wrong? WRONG? they are killers!! (and maybe suicides in the case of the ones actually infected). I don't really fu**ing care if they are nobel prizes or anything...jeez....

I say also the fact that I face death make my view of the problem different from that of yours.  I donít know about you and most of the people here.  But I firmly believe that a person who knows well about death by having less than 50 CD and whole lot of VL and OIs do have the same perception of life like a person who have a CD count of 600/700 up on diagnosis for disease.  Why you guys have to secluded this forum into LTS and others?  The answer is mainly because you attempt to reflect this reality.

So, you have the medic records of everyone here to say that? For me, these persons of 600/700 CD4 are WAY smarter than you or me (yay for me waiting for a full blown Aids diagnosis with a CD4 count of 98 and VL over the roof, accompanied with a nice OI and wasting syndrome) for battling this infection earlier and improving their health before they even reach the aids phase.

So, if any person who went into that kind of ordeal tries to minimize the problem by saying I never ever think of my infection, I say he must have gotten a problem.  And this is how the whole issue of comparing the HIV to cold virus, being indifference about the past etc etc came up. Thank you.

No one here is minimizing nothing, EVERYONE here is suffering a disease that will last our whole lives! Obviously you didn't understand the comparison...but I refuse to even try to explain.

Sorry for the burst, but I couldn't believe what I was reading, specially from someone whose early posts on this thread are very much like my feelings on the virus. Maybe it's time to work a bit harder on my views too, I don't want to end thinking like you on the long road.

As for me, I give myself a self warning and won't post again on this thread.
Dx: 05/14/2008
Latest HIV Meds combo I've been taking:

Kaletra + Combivir (since 05/16/2008 - today)

 


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