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Author Topic: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?  (Read 20358 times)

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Offline woodshere

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2011, 01:50:21 PM »
Quote
Human behavior is complicated and I don't think there is an easy answer, like education is going to fix everything


It's much like the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"  All we can do is continue to educate and hope that people listen.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2011, 01:53:18 PM »
 :-* miss p I don't not think any str8 or bi person is going dispute any of this, facts or facts, and history is history  ;)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 01:55:06 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline thunter34

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2011, 01:53:39 PM »
Did I say I was talking about you specifically?

As far as roots/causes stuff I think that's what you've been trying to get at all along, and I knew it from the other thread because I've seen you attempt to make the point at various points in your tenure here.  But while you may see some posts here that you identify with, I can't say it's the same for me.  A lot of you here sprung forth from the Land of Jerry Falwell and had all that churchin' effect your self worth.  I just haven't really had that as part of me, though I went to church growing up every week I intellectually blocked it all after about the age of 12.  I didn't have intense sexuality self-doubt issues that seems to have fed into lots of risky behavior for many, etc.  Is this what you're getting at here, or am I off base.  It just always seems with the topic you're often projecting, hence why sometimes I don't specifically respond.

No, and my reply about me not going eons was meant to be read more as a "take me for example" type of statement.  I should have made that clearer.

And no, you aren't off base...at least not entirely.  Yeah, there are plenty of us who had that churchin' thing (and that isn't entirely the domain of the south), but it didn't always just take preaching from Falwell to feed that self destructive behavior.  That's why I included the part early on about my algebra teacher.  The point was that there is often a "perfect storm" thing happening with us - and that storm may be made up of a variety of clusters.  In my case, not only did I have the admittedly heavy religious thing going on, but I also had the larger, more generalized societal devaluing of queerness - and that's something that nearly everyone confronts on some level.  

I had not only the religion based feelings of self-worth, but I also had the general shaming from society at large which made me so hungry for human contact by the time I was an adult that, between the two, thoughts about protection were virtually nonexistant.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 01:55:10 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2011, 02:12:49 PM »

I had not only the religion based feelings of self-worth, but I also had the general shaming from society at large which made me so hungry for human contact by the time I was an adult that, between the two, thoughts about protection were virtually nonexistant.

OK, fine -- I've also heard you talk about how you needed to go condom-less to feel an emotional cosmic connection with someone else.  That's fine for you, but I've never felt that way. In fact I'm not even sure that I have sex for an emotional connection, I really just do it to get off (and by this I'm meaning outside of a relationship type of sex). I'm not even going to tell you that as a Big Ole Mary Bottom that (for me) it feels any different getting fucked with or without a condom, meaning physically -- that sensory issue is for the top to deal with.

So yeah, there's a huge variety here and no one safe sex message is going to be able to work 100%, hence my comment about zero-sum game which you didn't seem to get. A lot of these issues aren't going to be solved unless society shoves queers into sexuality-affirming therapy sessions and support groups when they're 15, and that isn't ever going to happen. (someone here will mock me for saying that... you know who you are)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:14:58 PM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2011, 02:29:56 PM »
OK, fine -- I've also heard you talk about how you needed to go condom-less to feel an emotional cosmic connection with someone else.  That's fine for you, but I've never felt that way. In fact I'm not even sure that I have sex for an emotional connection, I really just do it to get off (and by this I'm meaning outside of a relationship type of sex). I'm not even going to tell you that as a Big Ole Mary Bottom that (for me) it feels any different getting fucked with or without a condom, meaning physically -- that sensory issue is for the top to deal with.

So yeah, there's a huge variety here and no one safe sex message is going to be able to work 100%, hence my comment about zero-sum game which you didn't seem to get. A lot of these issues aren't going to be solved unless society shoves queers into sexuality-affirming therapy sessions and support groups when they're 15, and that isn't ever going to happen. (someone here will mock me for saying that... you know who you are)

I guess we should just continue talking about Justin Beiber then.   :P
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2011, 02:37:17 PM »
Miss P. your comment about this not being a zero sum game made me realize that I may not have stayed HIV- but I did stay that way long enough to benefit from PIs and not die. Thanks! :)

Offline wolfter

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2011, 02:42:57 PM »
How so, not really  ::)

I'm not sure how much you remember of the early days so go ahead and roll your eyes as if dismissing my comments.  The first I ever heard of this illness was from our pastor who talked about the queers on the west coast being stricken with gay cancer. 
Judging someone does not define them, it defines you. 

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Offline AlanBama

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2011, 03:12:39 PM »
In the early 80's, I lived in Tulsa, OK.   I was into work (M-F) and gay bars (weekends).  That was pretty much it; I didn't watch a lot of TV, there was no internet, and the newspapers (that I read) said little or nothing about AIDS.   We (stupidly) assumed it was an "east coast' or "west coast" thing, and that we were kind of safe in the heartland....I remember the first guy I saw in Tulsa who (in hindsight) probably had AIDS; he was a hot blonde bartender; he was absent for a long while, then came back thin and walking with a cane.   There were some whispers, but mostly we remained in the dark (and that was mostly because of our own choosing).  Very dumb, I know.

Also, I (stupidly) thought that being a 'top' gave me a pass.....oh how wrong that was.   I learned it, the hard way.

Not sure why safe sex messages don't work as well now; I do think in part it's because people aren't dying (as openly) from AIDS as they were in the 90's.   I think about it a lot, and wonder what we could do or say to make things different.....and why can't they come up with a microbicide that works for men?  We all know men hate condoms, me included.   Just sayin...

"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline newt

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2011, 04:01:33 PM »
Love, trust, desire, 7 year relationship, being away from the scene

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Joe K

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2011, 04:48:32 PM »
So why? Well...a little of everything.

When society tells you, you are worthless and nobody, you begin to believe it. Like a never ending drum that you hear pounding loudly every day. Then add in leaders like GW Bush staring into the camera, at his 2004 "State of the Union" speech, with that look of pure evil in his eyes, pointing out "the gays" are our enemies and the nation should do everything it can to protect marriage from "those people".

Mix in some Jerry Falwell, Jessy Helms and Pat Roberson blaming every natural disaster on "the gays".
Toss in how most of us were treated in school.
Then include how some of our own family members treat us, or more so ignore the obvious.
All that, and more, sets the stage.

Next.. there is the fact with meeting other gay people usually happens is a less than desirable environment.
A bar, the cruise loop, some book store or restroom.
And don't forget that great power of sexual desire in itself.

I've often heard a gay guy saying "I'd risk AIDS to screw that hunk!".
Another a hard fact... many gays do not respect their own kind.
While we share being gay, many tend to accept the brain washing feed to them by the Jessy Helms, the Pat Roberson's and GW Bush's of the world.
I don't know how to put it, but they (some gays) somehow judge other gays in a negative light, all while members of the same club, they feel detached from the basic understanding of their own kind.

With all this on our shoulders, self respect falls secondary.
And many gay people knowingly, and against their better judgment, let their guard down. Take risks. Don't care. Never believe it can happen to them. Or worse of all, have this thinking if it happens (HIV) that they deserved it. It was inevitable.
Then you have those that actively seek catching HIV.
And too, those that in todays world believe modern medicine has cured HIV, or pretty much rendered HIV harmless.
Simply a minor inconvenience concerning medication.

Myself, I trusted someone that knew they were positive. And I did not know. Someone that knew all to well but chose to ignored their risk to me. Someone that might as well pulled out a knife and stabbed me in the chest, believing I too should share their personal grief and life sentence.

But finally and most of all, I blame me. Why would I ever take the risk. Why I would believe my luck could never run out. Why I lost respect for myself and well being. Why I would think my own loss of self respect would never have any effect on others close to me.

Yes... when you are told most every day you are a secondary citizen. Not worthy. Flawed. Not equal or deserving. When facing that ever since we first realized we ourselves were in fact gay, that does have a huge negative effect on a person.
That starts the ball rolling. The rest, somehow, does seem inevitable.

And it never stops. Every day we still hear politicians and leaders telling us we do not deserve to be happy. Be equal. Marry someone we love. Do not deserve our own private life and the right to a given freedom everyone else takes for granted. Every day is a battle, and it takes its toll.

Then comes a day for many, when we get to the point that we don't care. That we deserve what we get.
And we take the risks, despite knowing better.
And here we are. Trying to cope and somehow make sense of it all, on the "living with HIV" forum...

What an incredibly powerful post, outlining the many influences that gays face growing up and it illustrates why safe sex messages will always have limited reach. I'm going through some very intensive therapy right now.  I now know that there was nothing anyone could have told me in the 80s about HIV, because it did not matter to me. Because I did not matter to me. Randy presents a pretty accurate description of growing up gay, at least for me and in that environment, I never stood a chance, because everyone kept telling me how wrong it was to be gay and by everyone, I do mean "everyone".

My parents, my church, my schools, my friends, my family, strangers, people in powerful positions and people who simply hated me for being different. What was I supposed to do, I was born this way, but if you tell a lie long enough, sometimes you forget that it is untrue. Being orphaned at a young age, it took me decades to overcome the feelings of abandonment, partly because my "adopted" family, never fully accepted me, because I was not "naturally born" into the family. My poor mother could not have children, so just what was she to do, to have a child and it's all just way too fucked up reasoning for it to ever make sense.

However, it did shape my world, as it does for everyone and since we do not live in a vacuum, you can never devise a single message to reach everyone. If we want people to be protected, we have to give them an environment, that tells them they matter, just the way they are. For most of us, we grew up in a very tough time for being gay and in our own way, we have changed the world forever. Equal gay rights are a reality in many parts of the world and that presents a mindset for society to follow in general. If society can tolerate all types of people, then everyone has somewhat equal worth. If instead, society creates second classes of citizens, for whatever reasons, surely they cannot be surprised when the rest of society treats them as such.

For me, far too much time is spent telling people what not to do, rather than empowering them to do what is right for them. HIV, being an equal opportunity virus has presented us with a worldwide canvas, on which to try new things. We know that prevention messages alone are never enough. When we start empowering people, whether it be with condoms, microbial gels or needle exchange programs, we give them options to avoid infection that have real world implications.

Telling someone how to avoid becoming poz is fine, however they must have the tools to actually avoid becoming poz.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 05:00:11 PM by killfoile »
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline woodshere

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2011, 04:53:37 PM »
Telling someone how to avoid becoming poz is fine, however they must have the tools to actually avoid becoming poz.

Pretty well sums it up!!
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2011, 05:18:17 PM »
  I have to say too that I have noticed a propensity for  people to make up stories about their infections to hide the truth of what they were really doing. It's almost pathological in a sense, and seems to become a matter of habit for some. You know, if you tell the lie enough times, you'll start to believe it is true. Why do people feel the need to lie about it? I mean after all the truth of what really happened is staring us right in the face. Like if it's taking on every dick you can in a bookstore while in a "monogamous" realtionship, and trying to hide it from a partner. Or any other scenario you would care to imagine. I remain dubious about "Immaculate Infections"

   It seems to me that the longer and more detailed the explanation, the less likey it is to be true. Occam's Razor and all that.

CaptCarl
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 05:21:55 PM by CaptCarl »
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2011, 05:55:15 PM »
I'm not sure how much you remember of the early days so go ahead and roll your eyes as if dismissing my comments.  The first I ever heard of this illness was from our pastor who talked about the queers on the west coast being stricken with gay cancer. 

 :D I sure hope you don't go around believing what some crack-pot pastor tells you, but whatever, hell he probably likes young boys, and snorts tina  :D :D :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2011, 06:01:12 PM »
We (stupidly) assumed it was an "east coast' or "west coast" thing, and that we were kind of safe in the heartland....

I remember those days. I was living in Raleigh at the time and a lot of people thought that this was a New York or San Francisco phenomenon. It wasn't long before local people started getting sick.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2011, 06:03:44 PM »


   I don't think it's a good idea to follow the advice of a pastor who snorts tina, likes little boys, and follows a strict vegan diet.

   I'm just sayin....
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2011, 06:09:17 PM »
I remember those days. I was living in Raleigh at the time and a lot of people thought that this was a New York or San Francisco phenomenon. It wasn't long before local people started getting sick.

FORD I recall people gettin sick back in 81 or 82, in the Oakland SF bay area, however, AIDS has been around for many yrs. and a lot longer than 30 or 35 yrs.
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2011, 06:17:03 PM »

   I don't think it's a good idea to follow the advice of a pastor who snorts tina, likes little boys, and follows a strict vegan diet.

   I'm just sayin....

LUZ LUZ   :D :D :D :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2011, 06:17:15 PM »
FORD I recall people gettin sick back in 81 or 82, in the Oakland SF bay area, however, AIDS has been around for many yrs. and a lot longer than 30 or 35 yrs.

I think that must have been even more scary. How horrible to be at ground zero and see people getting sick and dying when no one knew what was going on, when there wasn't even a name for it.

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2011, 06:24:59 PM »
I think that must have been even more scary. How horrible to be at ground zero and see people getting sick and dying when no one knew what was going on, when there wasn't even a name for it.

not really I was in the Navy, and I just put on the rank of E-5 w/ a big pay rise to boot, so I didn't really care, however I did enjoy teasing all the Boys down in SOMA & The Castro on my bike, they just loved it, a guys gotta do what a guys gotta do ya know   :D @ 26 yrs old, i was just trying to get my dick wet, I didn't care who it was  ;D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 06:34:43 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2011, 08:40:14 PM »
I managed to remain negative for most of my adult life, i.e. until I was 46!

Then I fell in LOVE.  And for the first time I thought it might finally be OK not to use condoms with my partner, a man who bought condoms by the gross (that's 144 condoms, 12 boxes x 12 condoms in each box) so I assumed he was using them every time. We had an open relationship but to me "open" meant we could fuck around on the side safely. To him it meant he could fuck bareback with tweaked out party whores (I'm not mincing words our judging, just calling a spade a spade).

I was always versatile and more top (I'd get fucked once a year and that was enough). This man I fell in love with is a top so I was primarily a bottom with him.

I started to worry when I read a text he received (don't ask why I was reading his sacrosanct texts) from one of the aforementioned tweaked out party whores. The gist of the text was how hot it was that his cum was oozing out of their ass. Yum! Not.

I had read all those statistics that HIV is rising among 20-something inner city minorities who weren't getting the message about HIV/AIDS. My ex is 40-something and personally nursed at least a handful of men who died in the 80s and early 90s. He knew better. Or so I thought.

We've since broken up and I was recently telling him about a friend I have who has had HIV since 1985 and has a partner of 10 years who remains negative and he asked me incredulously, "How do they do that?" I had to stop myself from screaming "With CONDOMS you stupid fuck!"

This man is not stupid. In fact he's above average in the IQ department, among other departments that he's above average in.

Life is complicated.




Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2011, 08:44:24 PM »
(don't ask why I was reading his sacrosanct texts)

Child, you know I'm not letting that one pass by.  Who do you think you are?  Rodiney on the A-List?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2011, 08:54:58 PM »
Child, you know I'm not letting that one pass by.  Who do you think you are?  Rodiney on the A-List?

LOL

I love it that you spelled "Rodiney" right. I hate his accent. But then again, until recently I hated Scottish accents and now they give me a hard on.

I saw Reichen on the street the other day and his face looked sooo skinny. The camera really does add pounds.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 09:07:50 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2011, 09:11:58 PM »
I'm one of the afore mentioned non-testers.  I was way too ashamed of my sexuality to get tested for HIV until long after I'd put my extreme whoring days behind me.  I figured I'd dodged the bullet and I figured wrong.

The time I think I was infected however we used a condom, but not before he put the head in once or twice just to tease.  About a week or two later I was sick with the most god awful "flu" I'd ever had which upon inspection now would make sense as seroconversion.  I really honestly don't know though as I could've been infected long before or since.  I was diagnosed in the hospital fighting off a staph infection with my 15 T cells.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2011, 10:14:47 PM »


It's much like the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"  All we can do is continue to educate and hope that people listen.

Actually Woodsy when I read threads like this I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's notorious quip:

You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think.

MtD

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2011, 10:22:41 PM »

I saw Reichen on the street the other day and his face looked sooo skinny. The camera really does add pounds.

I think he's just not been getting much sleep lately.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline tednlou2

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2011, 02:03:12 AM »
I don't believe you. I think you have made that up.

MtD

Ok, I did make up the part about virgin ass.  And, I'm sure the tightness is debatable.  Being serious, this is how it happened.  I realize it was still my responsibility to make sure the condom stayed on. 

Offline mecch

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2011, 04:32:42 AM »
This man is not stupid. In fact he's above average in the IQ department, among other departments that he's above average in.

Done in by da big dick!

I got a hung friend, HIV+, he says its a constant demand, "do me raw".  So primal, finally.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 05:10:52 AM by mecch »
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline thunter34

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2011, 07:05:41 AM »
Now, I didn't say it was unprotected.  I was for the condom before he was against it.  When I talked about the situation here before, I got the emoticon eye-roll, so I didn't go into details this time.  I've had my share of bareback sex, so I'm not trying to cum off as some angel.  I just didn't get infected then.  It was when I tried to do all the right things by insisting on condoms--even with a long-time friend, and he took the condom off in the dark without me knowing.  And, his cock was so big that I'm sure it made so many tears in my very tight and very virgin ass.  Okay, now back to the regularly scheduled eye-rolls   ::) ::) ::)    

I'll have to try to look up the old posts in reference to this because I am curious how you "know" that it happened this particular time you "tried to do all the right things"....especially since, by describing it so singurlarly, it gives the impression that this "right" time was an exception to a rather lengthy series of...um..."less right" ones.

And is the "lou" part of "tednlou" still negative?  I'm just wondering because I don't know everybody's histories on here (being fairly recently returned and all), so I don't know if you managed to since find a relationship that was serodiscordant or if he's also poz or what.  He doesn't post on here, does he?  Just idle curiosity on my part...not trying to be too invasive.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline hope_for_a_cure

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2011, 07:13:00 AM »
I knew the risk was there but chose to ignore it and did just that.  If I actually had to come up with an excuse to justify my actions I guess I got tired of having rubbers come off inside my butt!  Yep.... its a tight one and that did happen more times than I care to remember.  My partner(s) would have to pull it out with their finger which spoiled the mood for us both. 

Offline woodshere

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2011, 09:02:20 AM »
Funny how this nasty old virus works and randomly infects everyone.  During the height of the epidemic I sucked every dick I could find, even took it up the ass with condoms occasionally.  Ten/fifteen years later, the cocksucking had been reduced greatly and the one of the first times I got fucked raw, BOOM, I got it.  Then others becoming infected shortly after their appreciation of dick sucking started or after barebacking numerous times the one time they use condoms something goes wrong and they become infected.  Life is so unpredictable!
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2011, 09:15:07 AM »
Funny how this nasty old virus works and randomly infects everyone.  During the height of the epidemic I sucked every dick I could find, even took it up the ass with condoms occasionally.  Ten/fifteen years later, the cocksucking had been reduced greatly and the one of the first times I got fucked raw, BOOM, I got it.  Then others becoming infected shortly after their appreciation of dick sucking started or after barebacking numerous times the one time they use condoms something goes wrong and they become infected.  Life is so unpredictable!

I was like this too -- all of the hysteria in the early years, and seriously it was hysteria and all encompassing -- stuck to just sucking cock for five years.  I don't think I even topped anyone, there was just never any anal sex.  I didn't even see anal sex in porn until maybe 1987 on a videotape, as you know VCRs were quite pricey at the beginning.  So when the chance finally presented itself to have anal sex, plus the guy I was having it with I'd had a HUGE crush on for the previous year or two, no condoms were used.  He didn't even have proper lube in his fucking apartment and we had to use Aramis hand lotion.  Probably some odd fragrant ingredient opened up every capillary in my rectum for optimal HIV transmission.  And I'm quite sure he went up to NYC to go clubbing from time to time, so there went the "I'm in Virginia and safe from that NYC/West Coast virus!"... I mean that was a silly rational for anyone to make in the first place, but going by Alan's and Ford's posts about where they lived it was not uncommon at the time.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 09:28:24 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2011, 09:20:39 AM »
I guess I got tired of having rubbers come off inside my butt!  Yep.... its a tight one and that did happen more times than I care to remember. 


 :P
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Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2011, 09:24:42 AM »
 During the height of the epidemic I sucked every dick I could find

 :P Woddy you and James are giving me a chubby flap, flap, flap,  :P
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 09:26:19 AM by denb45 »
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Offline thunter34

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2011, 09:52:40 AM »
 And I'm quite sure he went up to NYC to go clubbing from time to time, so there went the "I'm in Virginia and safe from that NYC/West Coast virus!"... I mean that was a silly rational for anyone to make in the first place, but going by Alan's and Ford's posts about where they lived it was not uncommon at the time.

Oh, no...not uncommon at all.  The way it was preached around here - and not only from the pulpit, but the general mentality - it was viewed as something that wouldn't touch the good folk here in the South (also known as part of "the REAL America" in today's terms, I would imagine).  Heck...from the way it was spoken of back then, you might well have just renamed San Fran and NYC as Sodom and Gomorrah.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2011, 10:01:48 AM »
San Fran and NYC as Sodom and Gomorrah.

Your speaking my language there tim, it's the only thing I know, you see it's in my DNA  ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2011, 10:16:13 AM »
Oh, no...not uncommon at all.  The way it was preached around here - and not only from the pulpit, but the general mentality - it was viewed as something that wouldn't touch the good folk here in the South (also known as part of "the REAL America" in today's terms, I would imagine).  Heck...from the way it was spoken of back then, you might well have just renamed San Fran and NYC as Sodom and Gomorrah.

Stop trying to project your church going life onto me, queen... I wasn't in a church pew post-1983.  My thinking was derived from the quiet whispers of kindred fags in the punk rock scene.  My life wasn't like yours.

ps: nice avatar.  I think I might have to kiss you. :-*
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2011, 10:18:55 AM »
Stop trying to project your church going life onto me, queen... I wasn't in a church pew post-1983.  My thinking was derived from the quiet whispers of kindred fags in the punk rock scene.  My life wasn't like yours.

 :D :D :D I sold my soul to the devil yrs ago, but he can't have it while I'm still alive, cause that's the deal I made w/ him, if I could take it back I would, but I cannot, i already no where I'm going after I die  ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline thunter34

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2011, 10:30:07 AM »
Stop trying to project your church going life onto me, queen... I wasn't in a church pew post-1983.  My thinking was derived from the quiet whispers of kindred fags in the punk rock scene.  My life wasn't like yours.

ps: nice avatar.  I think I might have to kiss you. :-*

Ahem...that's why I said, "...and not just from the pulput, but the general mentality".

Hmpfh....dis me then kiss me.

 ;D
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2011, 11:22:21 AM »
Tim-

   Nice new avvy. Now show us your tits...


CaptCarl
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2011, 07:35:55 PM »
Done in by da big dick!

I got a hung friend, HIV+, he says its a constant demand, "do me raw".  So primal, finally.

lol . . How reductionist of you!

I've had my share of giant cocks that I didn't want anywhere near my butt (although I don't think I've ever turned one down near my mouth).  The difference here is that I really fell in love and truly thought he was HIV-negative and was using condoms when fucking on the side.

Sometimes getting in a relationship and "falling in love" can be precarious.

I was reading something recently which struck a chord, "When a situation feels dangerous to you, it's probably more safe than you know. When a situation feels safe, that is precisely when you should feel on guard."  It was in reference to thrill-seekers, such as parachutists, wilderness hikers, etc.

I think he's just not been getting much sleep lately.

I love it. You always find the most fascinating little links. It must be because of your pact with Satan.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 07:44:19 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2011, 08:20:44 PM »
It must be because of your pact with Satan.

   Actually, Inchy Dear, it's well established Satan is very brazen in his attempts to stay on Miss P.'s good side.
   
   The true story is that in Hell, it is a well-known fact that Satan flinches just a little bit every morning when Philly gets out of bed. He knows that eventually they'll be cohabitating, so he's basically he's buying the bitch off to make life easier after she arrives. After all, due to the nature of Hell itself: There's no place to hide....

CaptCarl
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline tednlou2

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2011, 12:44:16 AM »
I'll have to try to look up the old posts in reference to this because I am curious how you "know" that it happened this particular time you "tried to do all the right things"....especially since, by describing it so singurlarly, it gives the impression that this "right" time was an exception to a rather lengthy series of...um..."less right" ones.

And is the "lou" part of "tednlou" still negative?  I'm just wondering because I don't know everybody's histories on here (being fairly recently returned and all), so I don't know if you managed to since find a relationship that was serodiscordant or if he's also poz or what.  He doesn't post on here, does he?  Just idle curiosity on my part...not trying to be too invasive.

The "lou" in tednlou refers to Louisville, KY and not someone named Lou.  I've been in relationships all my adult life.  I had sex with girls during highschool.  I had one girlfriend who we'd go to her house on lunch and have sex--unprotected sex.  I first had sex with a guy when I was about 17.  I had unprotected sex with a few guys during that time.  I met my first partner when I was about to turn 18.  We went for an HIV test together and were both neg in 1994.  We broke up in August 1995.  I tested about 2 weeks after that with a neg result when I immediately began a relationship with my current partner.  He tested neg as well.  So, I know the question is how did I get infected in 2001 when I was in a relationship?  I've never discussed that here before.  My current partner was present in a 3 way with that friend.  Shortly after that incident with the friend taking the condom off, I began having all the classic seroconversion illness symptoms.  I wanted to believe it was mono.  I believe my partner didn't get infected, because he didn't bottom.  He is more of an oral guy.  However, he did top me several times between 2001 and when I was dx'd in 2008.  I guess another example that tops are at much less risk.  In retrospect, I'm glad he didn't like to bottom.

Now, I went through a period where I was not faithful around 2004 and 2005.  My partner only wants to have sex about once a month.  This is why I went astray and why I agreed to bring the friend into a 3 way.  That's no excuse, but it is what it is.  Not proud of it.  I hooked up with guys, but I never had risky sex.  I would only do oral (usually only receiving) and/or just jerking off together.  I justified it in my head that if I didn't have anal sex, then it wasn't really cheating.  When a medical professional told me due to my labs that I must have just recently been infected, then I began wondering whether I could have gotten it via oral.  But, everyone says that is very, very unlikely.  And, I learned someone can be poz for years or decades with good/decent labs.  Again, I rarely gave oral and never took a load in my mouth.  I would often just lick the shaft and balls to avoid even sucking.  I'm sure those guys thought I was very boring or selfish. 

My partner and I just had this conversation tonight about the friend, my former partner, and when I was infected.  After I was dx'd, I learned that my former partner has AIDS.  That threw a wrench in things.  He had already progressed to AIDS by 2006, so one would think he'd been poz for many years.  We were last together in Aug 1995.  I suppose I could have still been in the window period when I tested just 2 weeks later.  However, I have a hard time believing I've been poz that long.  I know it is possible, but just hard to believe.  My partner reminded me tonight that I had a similar mono-like illness in early 1996.  I had just began working at a local TV station and I would come home and sleep until the next day.  But, I don't remember having swollen lymph nodes and think I was just tired from the schedule.  In any even, it had to come from him or the friend in 2001, because I had not had any unprotected anal sex with anyone else.  Unless oral or getting some spunk in your eye is a real risk, then I couldn't have gotten it from someone else.  My partner tends to believe it does go back to my previous partner.  However, he swears he got it in 2003 and I guess just progressed very quickly.  And, I spoke with that friend's previous partner who all but said he was poz.  He was being very careful with his words and said, "Our gut feelings are often correct."  He said they broke up, because he was having sex with lots of guys and doing it bareback.  I believe he was being careful with his words, because he was poz himself, but didn't want to reveal that to me.  Maybe not, but just a gut feeling.  And, I didn't reveal my status to him.  I said I was asking for a friend who had been with him and was now poz.  He probably saw through that lie.

So, I can be blamed for bringing someone into our relationship.  If we had picked up some stranger, I doubt I would have let my guard down and had sex in the dark where I couldn't see what was going on.  I doubt I would have even had anal sex, if it was a stranger.  I would have preferred to top, because I didn't get to do that at home.  The friend was mostly a bottom I would learn and usually didn't like to top.  But, he really wanted to with me.  That caused me to wonder whether he purposely wanted to infect me.  That is if he knew he was poz, which I'm beginning to think he did.  This brings up many feelings of guilt.  If I had only been satisfied in a "normal" relationship where you don't bring others into it, then I wouldn't be poz today.  If it does go back to my previous partner, then safe sex didn't work, because we weren't having safe sex.  If testing of strains were readily available and cheap, I would love to confirm just who it came from.  Not for blame, but to know just how long I had this.  If it were neither of them, then I would be one of those stories about oral infection that everyone says is impossible or very unlikely.  After the seroconversion illness or whatever it was in 2001, I went for a test in early 2002.  However, I didn't return for the results.  I had done it anonymously.  Since I feared it could be HIV, the moral thing to do would have been to get those results.  My partner knew about the friend taking the condom off, so it wasn't like I was fucking without him knowing and putting him at risk for HIV.  And, I told him I thought the sore and swollen lymph nodes that lastest years could be HIV.  He passed it off as a bad case of mono, too, because we read some with mono have lymph nodes that stay swollen like that.  But I've yet to meet someone with mono whose nodes stayed swollen for years.  So, that's the skeletons in my closet.         

Offline tednlou2

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2011, 12:46:23 AM »
My apologies for that novel I just wrote, but you asked, right?  However, you probably wanted the pamphlet version

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2011, 08:28:53 AM »
 I guess another example that tops are at much less risk.

Tops are less at risk but I'm not sure it can be characterized as "much" less. I don't mean to be nit-picky with your words but I think the message that tops are "much" less at risk isn't a good one. I know guys who exclusively topped who got HIV and they got it because they believed that if they exclusively topped they wouldn't get it. There are so many other factors involved when transmission occurs, such as the viral load of the person who's poz, whether there are any other STDs that can facilitate transmission, etc.

The other problem with the message that tops are "much" less at risk is that it feeds a vicious circle in which the person who's bottoming figures, "If this guy is a top he likely won't have HIV."

I agree that tops are "less" at risk but how much less is hard to say.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 11:22:33 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2011, 09:06:57 AM »
The friend was mostly a bottom I would learn and usually didn't like to top.  But, he really wanted to with me.  That caused me to wonder whether he purposely wanted to infect me.  That is if he knew he was poz, which I'm beginning to think he did.  This brings up many feelings of guilt.

You're going to have a difficut time comimg to terms with your infection.

Offline Peacock

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2011, 09:44:56 AM »
I was so desperate to experience anal sex , and so scared of how much its gonna hurt that I got nice and drunk, and had a few puffs of the blokes weed (that really got me flying in the clouds!!) So that by the time he was on top of me all the biggest priority was enjoying the sex .I honestly did keep thinking to myself that I must use a condom, but it was inmpossible to insist on one when my mind was up in the clouds and my body was under 5 tons of weight.(HeHeHe!). Quite an experience, I must admit i accept full responsibility for my decisions that resulted in me being in a very compromised position, and i did really enjoy it...so life goes on, ey. 8) so staying sober would have been a better idea...but i would have been like a cardboard cutout, and it would have been an aweful fucking experience for the dude who popped my virginity. Unfortunatly drugs and booze really do help to make the 'first time' experience more pleasurable, pity it also affects a persons common sense.
Peacock,Steve
Diagnosed 07/01/2002
Started Haart- 25/11/04 Cd4: 205 VL: 76'500
                      19/12/08 Cd4: 623 VL: UD
      26/03/12 Cd4: 497 Cd4%: 30.10 VL: UD
Combivir and Nevirapine(200mg) x1 of each-Am & pm
Not changed Meds since starting on HAART
Green Tea,Multivit,Selenium ACE,Folic acid,Vit C,Aciclovir 200mg 5x per day for 3 days-(ONLY when I have Shingles!)
100 percent adherence-with the help of a wristwatch!

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2011, 09:57:31 AM »
My apologies for that novel I just wrote, but you asked, right?  However, you probably wanted the pamphlet version

I'm on to you  ;D you just want to make me go blind by reading such a long post  :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline ThatsAll

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2011, 05:29:10 PM »
Accidents happen. I have always used condoms for sex, no exceptions. The woman who infected ne was older than me, vindictive as I later found out. I was having great sex that night. Anal and vaginal back and forth. I must have lasted two hours that night. Never occured to me to check the condom. We used her wetness as lube LOL. When we were done condom was shredded.  I didnt think anything of it because I came in her ass. Felt sick about two weeks later. So, I guess safe sex didnt work with me because I was not safe enough.

Offline newt

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2011, 06:49:25 PM »
Quote
So, I guess safe sex didnt work with me because I was not safe enough.

Yer, indeed, that's why it's really safer sex, like safer driving. Shit happens.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline eric48

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2011, 07:36:44 PM »
25 years of safe sex:

number of times I had (penetrative) sex without a condom:
- 1 in 198? (a week before the virus was discovered, freaked out)
- 0 with my then BF (7 years...)
- 1 (reproductive, with my wife)
- 1 one week of reproductive attempts (failed, with my wife, after carefull HIV tests, abstinence, etc)
- 1 guy (half) tricked me (2009), I found out within 10 sec of intercourse, interrupted (almost) right away, ... but that was it...

Still a virgin

First time I had (voluntary) allowed semen into me: 1986 (?)
Last time I had (voluntary) allowed semen into me: 1986 (?)

Immense sense of frustration  - guilt - and despair

So unfair ! , I said (crying) to the HIV clinic consultant.

Me: safe sex has made my life a waste... So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With ME ?
He: "Safe Sex" DID work with you ! you've eluded the epidemic, we are in 2010, you' re going to be Okay
Me (crying): I know (well, no, I DID NOT know, I was completely unaware of treatment progress, still locked-on safe-sex as sole life saver)
Me: ... (crying /fainting) THE virus screwed my sex life
He: and that of your wife (Oh boy, I had NEVER realized THAT!)
Me: ... (more crying)
He: safe sex... saved HER life ! YOUR "Safe Sex" Worked With HER

number of times I had (penetrative) sex without a condom since 2009 'accident': ZERO

number of times I 'see' people barebacking : so many !
number of times turned down for not barebacking : countless

Still a virgin... But not giving up hope

from Joseph Sonnabend, MD' blog:

-------------
I'm not sure that it's even possible to adequately describe the terror and desperation felt in the early 1980s.
-------------

19?? : First same sex love (I was 14, freaked out of been a 'faggot'... the word 'gay' did not even exist, but, I was IN LOVE)
1984 : First 'liberated' , out of the closet (well, discreet, though) gay life
198? : First ever penetrative passive sex (no condom) (unexpectedly loved it), Virus announced one week later
1988 : no sex
1990 : safe sex : patiently waiting for a vaccine
1991, 92, 93 safe sex : patiently waiting for a vaccine, gave up hope for Sex+Love
1993 : entered a complex relationship with a sex-addict girl (threesome). Became a father (one shot).
93, 94, 95, 96 : tried to 'satisfy' her, doing my best. (condom = no fun)
97, 98, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03 : gave up sex but under heavy surveillance from the Frau ... and... kid !
04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09 : a few (unexpectedly nice) incursions into my real life (safe sex)
2009 : big mistake, 2010: Dx, meds
2011: UD, and still kicking !

I'm not sure that it's even possible to adequately describe the (latent) terror I still live in

Does that answer the question ?

"Safe Sex" DID Work With ME / US !

Eric
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 07:51:52 PM by eric48 »

 


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