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Author Topic: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?  (Read 24228 times)

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Offline thunter34

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So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« on: April 19, 2011, 12:24:25 AM »
 I've been a member of these forums for several years now, and in that time I've seen themes return over and over again.  Questions about disclosure, and questions about the motives people have for their behavior.  Sometimes the burning question of the day is, "What type of safe sex campaign if most effective?"  Should we attempt to lessen people's fears in the hopes that more will test, or should we scare the shit of them so they won't put themselves at risk in the first place?  So many questions...

Well, I have one for you:  Why didn't the safe sex lessons work with you?

People on here are constantly wringing their hands and acting like the Cassandras of Coitus with this whole, "When will they ever learn?" attitude.  So, why didn't you learn?  Huh?  The message about condoms has been around for decades now, and precious few of us on here can say that we were infected before people knew better how to protect themselves...and yet we got infected anyway.  Why?

To hear many, it's sad tales of either oral sex or that dreaded one-time condom break.  But I'll be blunt with you:  I don't really believe you.  I think you did just what I did, and I question how much credibility we have as messengers when we didn't heed the call ourselves.  Sure, we can be of help to one another as we navigate through the hospital halls and bureaucracy now that we ARE positive, but how can we really help deliver any kind of meaningful message of prevention to others if we won't face up to what led up to us ignoring the warnings ourselves?

I spelled out my issues here: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=36905.0

I personally don't know that any message of any kind would have prevented me from ending up exactly where I did.  

So what about you?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 12:26:57 AM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline drewm

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2011, 12:37:40 AM »
I thought, and hoped, it would never happen to me. I cannot really explain it beyond this.
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

ATRIPLA - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 01:00:32 AM »
I never thought about it. Most likely because I had an arm full of speed a good amount of the time.

And also I was a 20 something what knew everything.

MtD

Offline komnaes

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 01:17:15 AM »
Simple - I was mildly suicide because of a depression that I failed to do anything about, but was too chicken shit to actually do anything immediate. So there I began a pattern of self destructive behaviors that involved unsafe sex.
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline buginme2

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 01:25:08 AM »
You don't have to be depressed, or naieve, or high to have had unsafe sex.  If that were the case there would be a lot less unplanned pregnancy's.  Everyone has had or will have unsafe sex at some point.

However on that note, I had a really fun night of sex, drugs, and rock and roll (or cheezy techno) that ended me up here.

Offline HollyStar

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 01:37:09 AM »
Hmm...I guess I threw knowledge and instincts out the window for love. I trusted him but at the same time I knew that I should have protected myself. I should have insisted upon condoms, instead of trusting. No one to blame for my situation but myself. The strange thing is that in sex-ed class so many years ago, the instructor had an HIV+ man come in and share his story with the class. All of us 7th graders were curious. Many wondered how he got infected and his story was scary and filled with sorrow. There was something about this man and his story that really touched me and has since stayed with me. The irony for me, is that after all of that, I end up as one of his comrades so-to-speak. And of course I never thought it would happen to me. Heck, I never even thought about it. We learn about HIV, safe sex, STD's but it's hard to teach someone self confidence and how to take a stand for themselves. Sometimes as we all know, emotions (or hormones) override intellect. I don't have any suggestions on how to get the message to 'sink' in for more people.
Diagnosed  July 28th 2003

'I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well.' -Diande Ackerman

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Online tednlou2

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2011, 02:00:29 AM »
Trusted a long-time friend who deceived me. 

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 02:13:06 AM »
I actually had only three condom free experiences between my first anal sex in early 1988 and my diagnosis in 1993 (the other two were actually both in 1990), the rest of the time I was quite fastidious with condom use.  It helped that there were walking corpses with KS on the streets to see.  However, each of those three possibilities also involved a lot of heavy drinking, coke and/or ecstasy... and probably all three at the same time.  Considering the high levels of partying I did pre-diagnosis I figure three fuck ups isn't that horrible.

I don't recall encountering an official safe sex campaign until I moved to NYC, but that would have been in late 1990. Previous to that I was dependent on word of mouth and what you could gleam in the mainstream press (hooray Richmond Times-Dispatch!), but definitely by 1986 we knew to use a rubber. At least among us young girls at the time I think many of us stuck to oral sex, which is why I didn't have anal sex until I'd already been sexually active for five years.  

I'd still say a safer sex message worked better during that period because the fear was simply more pervasive.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:16:15 AM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 02:22:52 AM »


    If I used a condom it was because I didn't want to get someone pregnant;  protection against STD's was a secondary thought, if that.    
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 02:26:41 AM »
Trusted a long-time friend who deceived me. 

To agree to have unprotected sex is to consent to the possibility of being infected with HIV and/or another STD.

MtD

Offline Jeff G

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 02:38:20 AM »
Its been so long ago but I think at the time I was diagnosed there were no safe sex messages or campaigns in the south where I lived .

I only date poz guys now and never use condoms .

Online tednlou2

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 02:50:35 AM »
To agree to have unprotected sex is to consent to the possibility of being infected with HIV and/or another STD.

MtD

Now, I didn't say it was unprotected.  I was for the condom before he was against it.  When I talked about the situation here before, I got the emoticon eye-roll, so I didn't go into details this time.  I've had my share of bareback sex, so I'm not trying to cum off as some angel.  I just didn't get infected then.  It was when I tried to do all the right things by insisting on condoms--even with a long-time friend, and he took the condom off in the dark without me knowing.  And, his cock was so big that I'm sure it made so many tears in my very tight and very virgin ass.  Okay, now back to the regularly scheduled eye-rolls   ::) ::) ::)    

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 02:58:20 AM »
Now, I didn't say it was unprotected.  I was for the condom before he was against it.  When I talked about the situation here before, I got the emoticon eye-roll, so I didn't go into details this time.  I've had my share of bareback sex, so I'm not trying to cum off as some angel.  I just didn't get infected then.  It was when I tried to do all the right things by insisting on condoms--even with a long-time friend, and he took the condom off in the dark without me knowing.  And, his cock was so big that I'm sure it made so many tears in my very tight and very virgin ass.  Okay, now back to the regularly scheduled eye-rolls   ::) ::) ::)    

I don't believe you. I think you have made that up.

MtD

Offline BT65

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 04:00:37 AM »
Honestly, in the town I grew up in, there was no sex ed.  I went to private school for the first two years of high school also, so of course nothing about sex there.  And to tell the truth, I didn't even think about condoms when I was overlly-sexually active.  And of course, there was the period of prostituting/stripping where I mostly cared about getting money to shoot up my arm, intead of condoms.  Who thinks about using condoms in those circumstances? 
Honestly, in all my years of being sexually active, I believe condoms were only used a few times, if that.  So, the answer to the question is 1) there was no sex ed; 2) I was too strung out to care.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline littleprince

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 04:39:00 AM »
I was so drunk you could have shoved anything up my .....  condom or not.

Offline mecch

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 06:25:39 AM »
modified:

My safe sex rules worked for 20+ years.  

I hope this thread doesn't serve as an invitation to judge people's transmission stories.

The OP set the tone:
"But I'll be blunt with you:  I don't really believe you.  I think you did just what I did, and I question how much credibility we have as messengers when we didn't heed the call ourselves."

Another basis of this sites "credibility" is that there are many different kinds of people who are HIV+, many different ways the person allowed himself/herself to be vulnerable to transmission (drugs, I didnt care, I wanted it, accident, betrayal, ignorance, blah blah blah blah blah) even though there are only a few actual transmission routes.

I was really helped by people here who said, well, don't eat yourself up over the mistake (whatever it was).  Learn from it, if possible, or put it aside.  Most important thing is to accept the situation today and move forward etc etc etc.



« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 06:43:49 AM by mecch »
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Dachshund

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 06:47:49 AM »
 I've had my share of bareback sex, so I'm not trying to cum off as some angel.     

case closed

Online bocker3

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 07:44:32 AM »
I have no idea why...  it worked for a long time, then it stopped.  It wasn't because of drugs or booze -- as I stopped that in 1989.  I have nothing to "excuse" my lapse of judgement -- actually, lapses of judgement.  Not tons of lapses, but enough of them.  So who really knows......

Oh wait, -- because sex feels good and I am human.  Yeah, that's it.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline surf18

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 08:16:11 AM »
my ignorance really was "oh just dont cum in me" so yea i had alot of raw sex but i always said dont cum in me. rightttttt like that works. how many guys you been with that are quiet cummers and you dont even know they came. that happens. or im hammered and cant tell if he shot in me
or the two times i trusted someone other than my bf to shoot in me after my last negative time.
i was one of the ones that was aware of this hiv but thought id never get it.

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 09:12:47 AM »
   A vindictive control-freak of a partner gave it to me. Then he convinced me that I gave it to him so he could use it against me and keep me in line when I would try to stand up for myself. Didn't work too well though. Eventually I left him anyway, and he's been dead for 16 years now....

CaptCarl
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline randym431

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2011, 09:28:49 AM »
So why? Well...a little of everything.

When society tells you, you are worthless and nobody, you begin to believe it. Like a never ending drum that you hear pounding loudly every day. Then add in leaders like GW Bush staring into the camera, at his 2004 "State of the Union" speech, with that look of pure evil in his eyes, pointing out "the gays" are our enemies and the nation should do everything it can to protect marriage from "those people".

Mix in some Jerry Falwell, Jessy Helms and Pat Roberson blaming every natural disaster on "the gays".
Toss in how most of us were treated in school.
Then include how some of our own family members treat us, or more so ignore the obvious.
All that, and more, sets the stage.

Next.. there is the fact with meeting other gay people usually happens is a less than desirable environment.
A bar, the cruise loop, some book store or restroom.
And don't forget that great power of sexual desire in itself.

I've often heard a gay guy saying "I'd risk AIDS to screw that hunk!".
Another a hard fact... many gays do not respect their own kind.
While we share being gay, many tend to accept the brain washing feed to them by the Jessy Helms, the Pat Roberson's and GW Bush's of the world.
I don't know how to put it, but they (some gays) somehow judge other gays in a negative light, all while members of the same club, they feel detached from the basic understanding of their own kind.

With all this on our shoulders, self respect falls secondary.
And many gay people knowingly, and against their better judgment, let their guard down. Take risks. Don't care. Never believe it can happen to them. Or worse of all, have this thinking if it happens (HIV) that they deserved it. It was inevitable.
Then you have those that actively seek catching HIV.
And too, those that in todays world believe modern medicine has cured HIV, or pretty much rendered HIV harmless.
Simply a minor inconvenience concerning medication.

Myself, I trusted someone that knew they were positive. And I did not know. Someone that knew all to well but chose to ignored their risk to me. Someone that might as well pulled out a knife and stabbed me in the chest, believing I too should share their personal grief and life sentence.

But finally and most of all, I blame me. Why would I ever take the risk. Why I would believe my luck could never run out. Why I lost respect for myself and well being. Why I would think my own loss of self respect would never have any effect on others close to me.

Yes... when you are told most every day you are a secondary citizen. Not worthy. Flawed. Not equal or deserving. When facing that ever since we first realized we ourselves were in fact gay, that does have a huge negative effect on a person.
That starts the ball rolling. The rest, somehow, does seem inevitable.

And it never stops. Every day we still hear politicians and leaders telling us we do not deserve to be happy. Be equal. Marry someone we love. Do not deserve our own private life and the right to a given freedom everyone else takes for granted. Every day is a battle, and it takes its toll.

Then comes a day for many, when we get to the point that we don't care. That we deserve what we get.
And we take the risks, despite knowing better.
And here we are. Trying to cope and somehow make sense of it all, on the "living with HIV" forum...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 09:52:50 AM by randym431 »

Offline DanMo

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2011, 09:32:19 AM »
I started having sex last October. I thought I was practicing safe sex. That's why I was so shocked to have received a reactive swab.

At first I was worried that it had been a condom break, but that happened a week before I got tested, and I learned later on that that is too soon to detect. So, after having thought about it, I'm guessing it was in December... I dont remember everything that happened, but knowing myself I would have insisted on a condom. I do remember that I might have briefly inserted the head of my penis during foreplay. The only explanation I can come up with was that he took off the condom without me knowing :(

I guess for safe sex to work, I should have reached down and checked occasionally to feel if the guy still had the condom on.

ďI tried to drown my sorrows, but the bastards learned how to swim, and now I am overwhelmed by this decent and good feeling.Ē óFrida Kahlo

11 Feb 2011 - Preliminary positive
07 Mar 11 - Inconclusive WB
14 Mar 11 - Diagnosed positive
05 Apr 11 - 355 (21%) / VL: 186,054
27 Apr 11 - 390 (20%) / VL: 285,095
06 Jun 11 - 298 (19%) / VL:  78,380
01 Aug 11 - > STARTED ATRIPLA <
30 Aug 11 - 699 (31%) / VL: 1,938
03 Nov 11 -                / VL: 645
27 Dec 11 - 559 (35%) / VL: 1,189
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Offline CaptCarl

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2011, 09:33:22 AM »
Randy-

    A most Excellent post! Very well put.
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline woodshere

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 09:45:25 AM »
Between 1985 and when I was infected, somewhere around 2001 as best I can tell, I sucked a lot of dick, I mean a lot.  Bookstores, parks, rest stops, cheap hotels, bars anywhere I could find an available cock, but I only got fucked a few times and as best i can remember they were all with condoms.  I believe I was infected by a guy from Boston I hooked up with a couple of times at the Hyatt in downtown Louisville when he was in town on business.  He fucked me raw both times.  We never even discussed status or condoms.  He just flipped me over and slammed it in, no lube just the old fashion spit.  And I loved it.

I can't blame it on drugs, booze,the invincibility of youth or the outside influences of politics or religion.  It was far more personal.  All I can figure is that I had and for that matter have a strong desire to please my partner, who always must be the top, and was fulfilling my desire to be wanted, a validation of my self-worth.  Pretty sad when you think about it, most likely due to my father's "loving" child raising skills.  I am tyring to work on that but it is difficult when you like sex and the role I play as much as I do.  The good thing, it is more about pleasure than validation.

In my years I have come to believe that so much of people's sexual activities are directly related to a mind set of some sort.  It has to be, how else do you explain the guy who backs his ass up to a glory hole and takes 10/15 loads up his ass.  It can't be for pleasure for I would think after about the 5th or 6th dick your ass is so stretched that pleasureable feeling experienced from getting fucked is gone.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 09:48:41 AM by woodshere »
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline auspoz

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 09:46:12 AM »
You don't believe me? Well walk a year or two or 20 in my shoes. I do not judge barebacking. I did once, but not anymore. What diagnosis meant for me though was a long period of disbelief: "but I was careful every time. how, how, how?"

I never once consented to anal sex without a condom. Never. Not once. I insisted on condoms for anal sex every single time. And if you don't believe that, well, meh.

Of course, it seems that didn't work for me, so I have spent (and continue to spend) days wondering why. And the answer I have come to thus far? It was the context. I had a lot of casual/anonymous sex. And either it slipped, broke or was taken off, I have no idea. At first I tried to convince myself it was orally transmitted, but that doesn't seem to have data to back it up. I trusted in situations where trust isn't discussed.  

So seems to me, that I'm here because I had sex sometime when someone fucked me, and something happened to the condom without my knowledge and they came in me. They probably didn't even know they were positive.

I urge you to consider all possibilities.

auspoz.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 10:06:22 AM »
I can't blame my infection on self esteem issues or drugs or lack of education or being deceived or being young and naive-- all more understandable reasons than mine. I was just lazy. When I was single I never had an unsafe encounter... not one. I was so detailed and controlled in my sex practices I didn't worry about HIV, even when I had sex with HIV+ men. I worried about herpes because I didn't feel I could protect myself against that. When I got into a long term relationship I messed up one time because we were on vacation in an outdoor hot tub at a resort. It was cold, I didn't want to go back inside to get a condom and we fucked each other in the bubbling water under the stars without condoms. It was a very romantic way to get an incurable disease. So for me it was getting too comfortable, letting my guard down and being lazy.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 10:09:03 AM by GSOgymrat »

Offline Buckmark

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 10:15:55 AM »
I have to step into the way back machine to remember this (step aside, Mr. Peabody and Sherman).  Ironically, it was my first time having anal sex.  It was not like I planned it, as I never have had (and still don't have) much interest in anal sex.  I was seeing this guy who lives in Syracuse, N.Y. (I lived in Binghamton N.Y. at the time), and was visiting him one weekend.  We were fooling around, one thing led to another, and before I knew it he was in me, and then it was over.  

While I don't recall safe-sex campaigns at the time (Binghamton NY in 1988?), I do recall knowing that I should have insisted on him using a condom.  Why didn't I?  Perhaps low self-esteem.  Or just desperate to have a relationship.  Afraid to speak up for myself, for fear that he wouldn't want to continue to be with me (which, it turns out, he didn't anyway).

This is a good thread, Tim.  While beating ourselves up over how we became infected with HIV isn't helpful, it is helpful to understand how it happened -- and in most cases, how we allowed ourselves to become infected.  For me I think it was a combination of factors:     I think I was terribly naive about sex, and in some ways I still am, though not HIV.  Low self-esteem (thanks to Randym for doing a great job of describing how many gays feel that way).  Desire to have a relationship, probably to the point of co-dependency, and confusing sex with intimacy.

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 10:16:53 AM »
I started using condom back in 87 up until 95, and then went to bareback sex, I got sick & tried of the condoms breaking on me all of the time, I broke more of them, then I ever was able wear, but whatever
works, everybody is different I suppose.....

 just cause I don't like them doesn't mean that others do, if a guy wants to wear one that's his choice and vise-versa, I mean come on, were all consenting adults right?

and we all know how I got infected, no sex , it was sharing a dirty rig, I knew what I was doing. but, I didn't care, I was too dam high & having way too much fun  ;)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 10:31:21 AM by denb45 »
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Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2011, 10:38:24 AM »
  A vindictive control-freak of a partner gave it to me. Then he convinced me that I gave it to him so he could use it against me and keep me in line when I would try to stand up for myself. Didn't work too well though. Eventually I left him anyway, and he's been dead for 16 years now....

CaptCarl

 :'( shit Carl, stop it dude, your gonna make me cry  :'( That is some fucked up ass shit  :-X there were so many things I wanted to say & tell you when bob & I met you and norm, but I just couldn't get the words
out to you, I too had 2 of them types of control-freak of a partners, for some reason I guess I didn't learn the 1st time, but they are both DEAD now :'(
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:00:24 AM by denb45 »
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Offline geobee

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2011, 10:42:38 AM »
I did get HIV through oral sex -- and don't really care who believes me or not.  Sure, I've had anal sex, but never unprotected, and I was almost always a top, and it was years ago.  In July 2009, after at least 2 years of not having anal sex (and testing repeatedly negative), I had several episodes of rimming and oral sex where guys came in my mouth.  I got ARS (rash on face, feeling like crap, etc.) within 2 weeks.  I went to get tested for antibodies and was negative.  Doc told me not to worry and sent me home.  But I felt something was wrong and paid for a separate VL test the next day through Labcorp and that came back positive -- so I was in the "window" where you're still antibody negative but are carrying a VL.  About 3 weeks after my antibody test came back positive and I went on meds.  Since I was newly infected, my VL at the time was high -- spiking to 1,000,000 but coming down to 400,000 before I started meds.  My T-Cells were also high -- about 900.  I got undetectable pretty quick (16 weeks) and have stayed there.  Fortunately my T-Cells have also stayed high, at around 900.  I was passed a resistant virus, so I couldn't take Atripla, and take Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada.  I was lucky to have good insurance, Kaiser pays for most of it.

Having said all that, I did have a LOT of oral sex.  Like, uh, I was kind of compulsive about it.  This is embarrassing to say, but it's the truth.  My docs at SF General and Kaiser said it's rare to get HIV this way, but it does happen.  Like I said, don't care if people believe me or not.  I know the truth and that's enough.  

Offline auspoz

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2011, 10:51:37 AM »
I'm hearing you. Not in my case, but I hear you.

auspoz.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 10:54:35 AM by auspoz »

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2011, 11:02:32 AM »
:'( shit Carl, stop it dude, your gonna make me cry  :'( That is some fucked up ass shit  :-X there were so many things I wanted to say & tell you when bob & I met you and norm, but I just couldn't get the words
out to you  :'(

   I actually just found this all out recently from his sister. After over two decades of feeling varying dgrees of guilt over it. When I found out the truth, I was surprised that I felt absolutely nothing about it. Nada. Zilch. Zero. I guess after that much time goes by, hearing something like that doesn't change anything, so wha's the point in getting worked up over something that, in reality, doesn't matter? Don't cry over it Den, I certainly don't.
   Oh and BTW, you will have ample opportunity to say the many things you wanted to say last time you were here :)

CaptCarl
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2011, 11:05:15 AM »
   I actually just found this all out recently from his sister. After over two decades of feeling varying dgrees of guilt over it. When I found out the truth, I was surprised that I felt absolutely nothing about it. Nada. Zilch. Zero. I guess after that much time goes by, hearing something like that doesn't change anything, so wha's the point in getting worked up over something that, in reality, doesn't matter? Don't cry over it Den, I certainly don't.
   Oh and BTW, you will have ample opportunity to say the many things you wanted to say last time you were here :)

CaptCarl


 :-* fair enough dude  ;)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline wolfter

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2011, 11:38:12 AM »
My initial response was WTF????   It's akin to who deserved it back in the 80's.  Since it wasn't posted in the LTS forum I won't be too critical.  I don't know why safe sex education doesn't work.....it's beyond my scope of understanding.  Why add the divide to whom was more deserving?  The majority of my friends were little sluts who did things I only wished I had the nerve to do.  I was and am very conservative concerning sex and never thought I'd end up with disease. 

Perhaps I read this post with the wrong mindset. 
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline woodshere

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2011, 11:46:01 AM »
My initial response was WTF????   It's akin to who deserved it back in the 80's.  Since it wasn't posted in the LTS forum I won't be too critical.  I don't know why safe sex education doesn't work.....it's beyond my scope of understanding.  Why add the divide to whom was more deserving?  The majority of my friends were little sluts who did things I only wished I had the nerve to do.  I was and am very conservative concerning sex and never thought I'd end up with disease.  

Perhaps I read this post with the wrong mindset.  

I think so.  I don't think anywhere we have even discussed who is more deserving (which is bogus) but just a general discussion of why we didn't practice safer sex, with the exception to those who had the condom break, slip off or contracted through oral.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Buckmark

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2011, 11:51:13 AM »
Quote
My initial response was WTF?Huh   It's akin to who deserved it back in the 80's.  Since it wasn't posted in the LTS forum I won't be too critical.  I don't know why safe sex education doesn't work.....it's beyond my scope of understanding.  Why add the divide to whom was more deserving?  The majority of my friends were little sluts who did things I only wished I had the nerve to do.  I was and am very conservative concerning sex and never thought I'd end up with disease.  

Wolfie,

I went back and re-read Tim's original post, and I don't see he ever mentioned who "deserved" to get HIV.  The question was why safe sex messages and education didn't work for you.  Safe sex messages have been around for years and years, and yet people are still getting infected by having unsafe sex.  So to improve education or speak about it more effectively, it's helpful to understand why people don't have safe sex, even though they "know better".  

But I do have a question for you:  do you think your friend who were little sluts were somehow more deserving?  I think I sometimes viewed my rather (very?) limited sexual experiences as somehow "protecting" me from HIV, but experience doesn't protect -- condoms do.  Since I ended up with HIV anyway, I sometimes (oftentimes?) I wish I were a slut and enjoyed some good sex along the way.

Regards,

Henry
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:55:55 AM by Buckmark »
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline drewm

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2011, 11:59:53 AM »
I was a little slut so I guess I was more at risk but not more deserving. I don't think anyone deserves this virus. I have also given considerable thought to my behavior over the years and when I was doing meth, a lot of meth, I didn't care about the risks.

I know it sounds coy but actions have consequences and the only person I can blame for this is me. I don't beat myself up over it though because things happen. No one forced that first bump of crystal in my nose and no one forced a load up in me.
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

ATRIPLA - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline thunter34

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2011, 12:17:35 PM »
My initial response was WTF????   It's akin to who deserved it back in the 80's.  Since it wasn't posted in the LTS forum I won't be too critical.  I don't know why safe sex education doesn't work.....it's beyond my scope of understanding.  Why add the divide to whom was more deserving?  The majority of my friends were little sluts who did things I only wished I had the nerve to do.  I was and am very conservative concerning sex and never thought I'd end up with disease. 

Perhaps I read this post with the wrong mindset. 

Whoa.  This isn't meant to divide anyone into any more or less "deserving" camp AT ALL.  My point is just what Buckmark says:  trying to understand why the safe sex message didn't work for us may help to understand how it might be made to work better for others.

I hate to continue to harp on the earlier post I made (linked in the OP here), but it has been gnawing at me for awhile now because I was taken aback that barely anybody here - not even the moderators or the people I am closest to on this forum - seemed to be willing to touch it.  This is the sort of discussion I was hoping to inspire in that thread.

The main point of that thread - and what I'm now more blantantly trying to draw out in this one - is that truly effective prevention messages may have to be worked on from the listener's side.  In other words, even though the safe sex message itself was essentially solid, I was not able to really receive the message.

I'm trying to get at what all the "outside" contributors to infecton are, and how focusing on improving those areas may stem the tide of new infections more effectively.

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline wolfter

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2011, 12:31:56 PM »
I apologize, I didn't intend to derail your post in any way.  I obviously read more into it than was intended.  It's always been a touchy issue with me personally and I strive to change that mindset.  No one ever deserves to get this virus.  When I contracted this virus, it wasn't even talked about in rural WVA.  It was a west coast disease. 
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline woodshere

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2011, 12:49:11 PM »
trying to understand why the safe sex message didn't work for us may help to understand how it might be made to work better for others.


To me the fact of the matter is that no matter the number of messages regarding many activities, not all people are going to listen.

Statistics show the risk of dieing or sustaining life changing injuries greatly decrease when we wear seat belts, but people don't.  Safety figures show it is safer to wear helmets when riding motorcycles people don't.  Just last week a 74 yr old lady at my church was killed at her mailbox when hit by a driver texting.  How many more messages do we need regarding drinking and driving.  Messaging works for the vast majority of people, but sadly a small percentage of the population will not heed those messages.  The reasons why are as numerous as the stars in the sky and I just don't think there is any way to address all the issues.

I don't think I am being a defeatist, just a realist.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 12:53:18 PM by woodshere »
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2011, 12:55:13 PM »
Whoa.  This isn't meant to divide anyone into any more or less "deserving" camp AT ALL.  My point is just what Buckmark says:  trying to understand why the safe sex message didn't work for us may help to understand how it might be made to work better for others.

I hate to continue to harp on the earlier post I made (linked in the OP here), but it has been gnawing at me for awhile now because I was taken aback that barely anybody here - not even the moderators or the people I am closest to on this forum - seemed to be willing to touch it.  This is the sort of discussion I was hoping to inspire in that thread.

The main point of that thread - and what I'm now more blantantly trying to draw out in this one - is that truly effective prevention messages may have to be worked on from the listener's side.  In other words, even though the safe sex message itself was essentially solid, I was not able to really receive the message.

I'm trying to get at what all the "outside" contributors to infecton are, and how focusing on improving those areas may stem the tide of new infections more effectively.



I don't look at "safe sex" messages in that way -- it's more complicated.  Certainly there are (speaking of the gay community) that it completely works for -- and yes I even know complete bath house types that are able to navigate all of that with a condom for decades without getting infected.  But the larger point is if on an individual basis you are able make a safe sex message work for 10 years, that's 10 years you weren't infected with HIV.  Keep in mind that the HIV timeline has never been static, and at certain points in that timeline 10 years was a big deal.  Or even five.

I think you're looking at it as some sort of zero-sum game which I don't find particularly useful.  Furthermore, if we're going to discuss this as a complete picture we should also be asking why any individual in a high risk group wasn't getting an HIV test on an annual basis.  I can accept a certain amount of ongoing infections, but I'm always actually more concerned (or similarly) with the amount of people showing up with a diagnosis of <200 cd4s, meaning they went eons with no testing.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2011, 01:18:19 PM »
I don't look at "safe sex" messages in that way -- it's more complicated.  Certainly there are (speaking of the gay community) that it completely works for -- and yes I even know complete bath house types that are able to navigate all of that with a condom for decades without getting infected.  But the larger point is if on an individual basis you are able make a safe sex message work for 10 years, that's 10 years you weren't infected with HIV.  Keep in mind that the HIV timeline has never been static, and at certain points in that timeline 10 years was a big deal.  Or even five.

I think you're looking at it as some sort of zero-sum game which I don't find particularly useful.  Furthermore, if we're going to discuss this as a complete picture we should also be asking why any individual in a high risk group wasn't getting an HIV test on an annual basis.  I can accept a certain amount of ongoing infections, but I'm always actually more concerned (or similarly) with the amount of people showing up with a diagnosis of <200 cd4s, meaning they went eons with no testing.

I don't get the "zero sum" thing at all.  I'm just trying to identify markers for people that prevent the messages from reaching them.  Is it zero sum to try to identify what the barriers are for reaching, say...the black community?  If you read through the thread, there seem to be some definite common denominators.

And I didn't go "eons" without testing.  I went about 2.5 years.  When taken in the frame of "annual screens", that isn't all that long.  I tested negative just weeks before my seroconversion, and was labeled "AIDS" less than 3 years later.  But for what it's worth, I think that testing question you raise is a good one...and I think the avoidance of both are often rooted in the same causes.

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2011, 01:20:05 PM »
  It was a west coast disease. 

How so, not really  ::)
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Offline woodshere

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2011, 01:20:25 PM »
Quote
....people showing up with a diagnosis of <200 cd4s, meaning they went eons with no testing.

Wow, that hits home!!  While I can somewhat figure out what led to my infection, I have no earthly idea why I didn't test on a regular basis.  I mean I was experiencing symptoms of HIV infection but in some whacked out way justified having them due to some other factor.  Interesting question.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2011, 01:25:10 PM »
   I think that the ultimate reason most of us are here, is because we fucked up big time. Pure and simple. We figured that for some reason we would be spared from all of this, from the consequences of our actions. After all we were somehow special, and therefore immune from the Bad Thing that might happen to us. Or we decided that the risk was small, or that "just this one time" and we would be okay. Much to our surprise and sorrow though, we learned otherwise.

   It's no different than when I ride my motorcycle without my helmet. Yes I know it's bad idea, but then again, if I'm very careful..... Every time I hop on it, I ask myself if this is the time I go down. Hard. But that doesn't always keep me doing the right thing. I suspect it's the same mindset that causes people to hae unsafe sex.

CaptCarl
  

  
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2011, 01:28:40 PM »
Wow, that hits home!!  While I can somewhat figure out what led to my infection, I have no earthly idea why I didn't test on a regular basis.  I mean I was experiencing symptoms of HIV infection but in some whacked out way justified having them due to some other factor.  Interesting question.

Woody, some of us didn't have a test to take for HIV, I didn't take one cause none were available until 87
things were a lot different back then for a lot of us, before 87 I had no fucking clue what teh gay-cancer was
(that's what they labeled it back then) until they change it to Gird or AIDS....
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2011, 01:29:50 PM »

And I didn't go "eons" without testing.  I went about 2.5 years.  When taken in the frame of "annual screens", that isn't all that long.  I tested negative just weeks before my seroconversion, and was labeled "AIDS" less than 3 years later.  But for what it's worth, I think that testing question you raise is a good one...and I think the avoidance of both are often rooted in the same causes.


Did I say I was talking about you specifically?

As far as roots/causes stuff I think that's what you've been trying to get at all along, and I knew it from the other thread because I've seen you attempt to make the point at various points in your tenure here.  But while you may see some posts here that you identify with, I can't say it's the same for me.  A lot of you here sprung forth from the Land of Jerry Falwell and had all that churchin' effect your self worth.  I just haven't really had that as part of me, though I went to church growing up every week I intellectually blocked it all after about the age of 12.  I didn't have intense sexuality self-doubt issues that seems to have fed into lots of risky behavior for many, etc.  Is this what you're getting at here, or am I off base.  It just always seems with the topic you're often projecting, hence why sometimes I don't specifically respond.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2011, 01:36:36 PM »
I don't look at "safe sex" messages in that way -- it's more complicated.  Certainly there are (speaking of the gay community) that it completely works for -- and yes I even know complete bath house types that are able to navigate all of that with a condom for decades without getting infected.  But the larger point is if on an individual basis you are able make a safe sex message work for 10 years, that's 10 years you weren't infected with HIV.  Keep in mind that the HIV timeline has never been static, and at certain points in that timeline 10 years was a big deal.  Or even five.

I think you're looking at it as some sort of zero-sum game which I don't find particularly useful.  Furthermore, if we're going to discuss this as a complete picture we should also be asking why any individual in a high risk group wasn't getting an HIV test on an annual basis.  I can accept a certain amount of ongoing infections, but I'm always actually more concerned (or similarly) with the amount of people showing up with a diagnosis of <200 cd4s, meaning they went eons with no testing.

Those are good points. I think this thread illustrates there are a variety of reasons people don't always use safer sex practices. Human behavior is complicated and I don't think there is an easy answer, like education is going to fix everything. As far as testing, there are a lot of people who go years without ever seeing a doctor. How many people do we get on here, often people who are not even HIV+, who have all kind of symptoms: blisters, head aches, fatigue, etc. but haven't consulted a doctor?

   It's no different than when I ride my motorcycle without my helmet. Yes I know it's bad idea, but then again, if I'm very careful..... Every time I hop on it, I ask myself if this is the time I go down. Hard. But that doesn't always keep me doing the right thing. I suspect it's the same mindset that causes people to hae unsafe sex.

I thought about the helmet analogy when I first read this thread.

Offline denb45

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2011, 01:41:57 PM »
Did I say I was talking about you specifically?

  A lot of you here sprung forth from the Land of Jerry Falwell and had all that churchin' effect your self worth. 

 :D :D :D :D
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2011, 01:46:26 PM »
Those are good points. I think this thread illustrates there are a variety of reasons people don't always use safer sex practices. Human behavior is complicated and I don't think there is an easy answer, like education is going to fix everything. As far as testing, there are a lot of people who go years without ever seeing a doctor. How many people do we get on here, often people who are not even HIV+, who have all kind of symptoms: blisters, head aches, fatigue, etc. but haven't consulted a doctor?


That's why I specifically referenced "high risk group" -- if you're gay, that means you, and yes even if you're in a "monogamous" relationship because we all know how "monogamous" that can turn out to be.

And before a heterosexual member launches into me sure, I think everyone is at risk and should test annually if sexually active, but proportionally speaking with "x"% of the population and "y" rate of new infections, I'm always particularly shocked about it in the gay community.

And I lump myself in the "waited to long" to get tested.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

 


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