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Author Topic: Being ignored  (Read 8699 times)

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Offline denb45

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2011, 09:29:09 PM »
I thought the ignore option prevented useless animosity and kept dead relationships done and dusted.
As a bonus, doesn't it lighten the load on moderators - less conflict, less to moderate?   Moderators encouraged me to use it and first I hesitated but finally used it and appreciated the safer feeling.   So why is it bad?

I've NEVER used it before, I always thought it was kinda childish, and it really didn't say much for the people who did happen to use it..I mean come on, this isn't grade school, and were NOT in an episode of GLEE, were all mature adults aren't we, and very capable of having a civil discussion, well at least some of us.......
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2011, 09:33:30 PM »
I thought the ignore option prevented useless animosity and kept dead relationships done and dusted.

I disagree.  Just think of those people (I won't name any names --you are not one of them though) who constantly and immaturely flaunt their use of this function in an attempt to belittle others.  

As a bonus, doesn't it lighten the load on moderators - less conflict, less to moderate?   Moderators encouraged me to use it and first I hesitated but finally used it and appreciated the safer feeling.

Not necessarily so.   People still continue to peek and then hit the rep to mod button (or ask others to do it on their behalf).  The life of a mod never stops in this lovely sandbox.

So why is it bad?

In my opinion this function sucks.  It is not used as it should be and, as mentioned by several members in posts above this one, it prevents true and valuable discussions.  We all can learn something from somebody at some point (even if what we learn is just why we shouldn't do as they do).

I seriously wish we could keep the ignore function gone for good.  But I understand if Tim and other admins decide it is necessary to maintain it.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2011, 10:07:55 PM »
I thought the ignore option prevented useless animosity and kept dead relationships done and dusted.
As a bonus, doesn't it lighten the load on moderators - less conflict, less to moderate?   Moderators encouraged me to use it and first I hesitated but finally used it and appreciated the safer feeling.   So why is it bad?

Nowhere did I say that I was permanently pulling the plug on the ignore function -- it has its value, yes (though I wish I had a dollar for every time someone swears they've put another on ignore, only to engage in the same old tit-for-tat in subsequent threads). It wasn't my intent to block the ignore function entirely, but that's what happened and I'm not really keen on spending any more time playing with the SMF template and potentially making matters worse. I'm simply hoping for better configuration options with SMF 2.0. Hopefully I'll be able to once again enable the ignore function without the alienating "ignored by" profile feature. 

Offline bocker3

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2011, 10:11:36 PM »
What I am not really understanding is why anyone cares if anyone else uses ignore.  I mean I get the issue about people throwing it about as a "weapon" -- the old "are you speaking to me???  don't waste your time, I have you on ignore".  I never got that -- if you ignore someone -- IGNORE THEM.
But folks coming in and saying they wish the function would go away -- WHY??  if you don't like the ignore function don't use it -- why do you want to stop someone else from using it if they wish?  People should have a right to choose......

In the interest of disclosure -- I've only ever used it twice -- one person is gone now and the other, well, shall remain nameless.  Why did I use it -- because I lacked self-control with them and turned into something I did not like.  This made it easier on me and I've lost nothing from these forums.  Does that make a wuss -- perhaps -- but I'm happier, so don't take my choice away.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline leatherman

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2011, 10:13:45 PM »
without the alienating "ignored by" profile feature. 
I don't know that it was very alienating when you didn't know who was ignoring you or for how long.  :D

I have no problem with the ignore function coming back as many forums/bbs have a "block user" function which is especially useful for forums without moderators. Until you've been harassed by a whacko or homophobe, or spammed to death from a jerk, you'll never know how nice that "block user" function can be.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2011, 10:32:20 PM »
What I am not really understanding is why anyone cares if anyone else uses ignore.  

folks coming in and saying they wish the function would go away -- WHY??  if you don't like the ignore function don't use it -- why do you want to stop someone else from using it if they wish?  People should have a right to choose......

You talkin to me?

You got yer opinions and ah got mine. Good enough?
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2011, 10:54:50 PM »
Well, since the ignore feature is currently disabled, I would like to take this opportunity to let mecch know that I really am being sincere when I say that I do enjoy reading many of his insightful posts (I haven't always agreed with every post of his - and he has not always agreed with every post of mine - thus, the reason he had put me on ignore) --- But, I hope that the temporary removal of this function will provide an opportunity for him and others to separate out the information or discussions from members they want to hear (read) and those that they don't without throwing the baby out with the bath water. 

If someone is ever really getting out of hand, offensive, attacking - there is always the report to mod button.  In the end though, I learn a great deal from every member on here - even in times of disagreement.

Just my two cents.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Ann

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2011, 12:34:46 AM »
The life of a mod never stops in this lovely sandbox.

Ya think?




We have ALWAYS had an ignore button, at least since late 2001 when Peter Staley* upgraded to the FuseTalk forums from whatever crappy forum software he started out with (believe me it was a nightmare to navigate- Jody will probably agree with me).

The ignore button was NEVER a problem until last spring when we had hacking problems and therefore had to re-installed the forum software. It was only then that the "ignored by" info appeared in everyone's profile. Before that, nobody knew whether or not they were being ignored and they had no idea whether or not someone else was being ignored.

As it should be.

I'm all for having an ignore button - although I wouldn't use it myself (just too nosey) - but I am NOT for having members use it as a weapon to lord over other members.  If you have someone on ignore, ignore them, don't keep telling them over and over that you're ignoring them. It's like having someone standing next to you with their fingers in their ears while obnoxiously singing LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA.

Nor am I for people using it as some screwed up version of street-cred (I'm being ignored by 5736 users, ain't I cool?). If you're being ignored, maybe there's a reason for that. Why gloat about it?

Anyway, it was the "ignored by" info in the profiles that Tim valiantly tried to get rid of - and I totally agreed with him. Things just don't always go according to plan. Isn't that how most of us ended up here in the first place? What's that quote about best laid men plans?

I hope I don't see too many more posts from people who suppose they were being ignored gloating about how they now cannot be ignored. That's as bad as the finger-in-ear-la-la-la crowd. Most of the people doing the ignoring were banned members anyway. Who gives a fig newton?


*if you don't know the name "Peter Staley" then it's high time you started reading about the history of the people responsible for the hiv services and meds at your disposal.


edited to fix a discombobulation
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 01:38:49 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline carousel

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2011, 04:38:07 AM »



*if you don't know the name "Peter Staley" then it's high time you started reading about the history of the people responsible for the hiv services and meds at your disposal.


edited to fix a discombobulation

I started to ignore Peter when he started trolling round the I Love Porn thread.   What a Ho.

I've never put somebody on ignore, but I think it serves a purpose.  I agree that everybody can't always get on and I can see withdrawing from what are being experienced as attacks, by putting somebody on ignore may be the most pragmatic decision.

Agreed that telling us the number of people ignoring them was wrong, even though I was curious enough to check.

Also this site is not always moderated at all times and I can see it serving a purpose for members at that time, for them to feel safe posting.

I can't agree less with the idea that members should grow a pair of knackers if they want to stick around this site.   There should be a place on this site for people who are feeling vulnerable and those who sometimes crash into this site with a little craziness.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2011, 07:41:17 AM »
You talkin to me?

You got yer opinions and ah got mine. Good enough?

Wasn't talking directly to you as many have said the same thing you did.  However, seeing as I seemed to strike a nerve -- how come you didn't answer.  It's not about an opinion -- you want to take something away from others that ultimately has no impact on you.  I have no problem with folks opinion on the ignore button -- i.e. the merits of using it, but I don't understand why people think that NO ONE SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE TO USE IT.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline mecch

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2011, 07:58:12 AM »
What I am not really understanding is why anyone cares if anyone else uses ignore.  I mean I get the issue about people throwing it about as a "weapon" -- the old "are you speaking to me???  don't waste your time, I have you on ignore".  I never got that -- if you ignore someone -- IGNORE THEM.

I agree with Bocker here.  Once you ignore someone that's the point - you really got to ignore.  You miss some good posts but you'll avoid the thing that bugged you so much as to want to ignore in the first place.

Newbies might not get this so they could be gently reminded when they try to flaunt ignore status.

Since there are hundreds of members here, I don't think anyone cares who has attracted a few ignores or who has ignored a few people.  The OP was making a crack but it misses the point.  Nobody goes out looking either to put people on ignored, or to get ignored.  Just some personalities attract this more than others, end of fascination.

Well, I'm looking forward to the return of this feature. Tim, call me dense but I'm not getting the exact issue - it is temporarily disabled and will be established again in the next system?  And when might that be.   The issue was the system was labeling who ignores who?  

By the way - PLEASE clarify.  If up to now a Person A puts Person B on ignore. Person B can still see A's posts to the threads. Correct?   But A is spared having to see B's posts?  Correct?  And can also block private messages.

As long as Member A no longer mentions B, where's the problem?

Even if B writes something interesting elsewhere, o even if B continues to comment on A's posts, A has given up the right to comment on B, because A perfers ignore.  This should be explained to people who push ignore.  If they can't manage that emotionally or intellectually, maybe they should get closer instruction, and that failing, time outs.

I am sure the moderators can come up with a standard paragraph, explanation and warning, that could quickly be posted to those threads where ignore is being "flaunted".
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 08:05:20 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online wolfter

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2011, 08:19:05 AM »
I was only being flip.  I didn't think it'd cause such stir.  I promise that I won't Zin post again. (well, maybe not)  I did manage to get 2 ignores before this was disabled.  Too bad real life doesn't have the ignore feature.
productivity breeds content

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2011, 08:25:46 AM »

*if you don't know the name "Peter Staley" then it's high time you started reading about the history of the people responsible for the hiv services and meds at your disposal.



Anyone who doesnt know who Peter is may then be:

A) Very very young
B) Very new to being poz
C) Oblivious as to what happened in the world of HIV prior to their own infection
D) All of the above


I was only being flip.  I didn't think it'd cause such stir.  I promise that I won't Zin post again. (well, maybe not) 

You didn't do anything wrong.  Look at it this way, the discussion that it generated motivated Tim sufficiently to play with the code, even if he unintentionally broke it a little (making the function disappear altogether).   At least we won't see that "ignored by" line once the update is completed.



"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2011, 08:28:35 AM »
  Too bad real life doesn't have the ignore feature.

I have had the same thought. I would love to block Sarah Palin and Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Church from my life.

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2011, 08:37:46 AM »
I have had the same thought. I would love to block Sarah Palin and Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Church from my life.

Don't forget those buffoons Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. 
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Ann

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2011, 09:06:29 AM »

I am sure the moderators can come up with a standard paragraph, explanation and warning, that could quickly be posted to those threads where ignore is being "flaunted".


Mecch, must you be so pedantic?

I hardly think we need social etiquette tutorials on how to use the ignore button. If/when we get the ignore feature back - sans the "ignored by" notice in the profiles - we probably won't have this kind of problem again. We never had it before the "ignored by" notice appeared.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2011, 09:16:59 AM »

*if you don't know the name "Peter Staley" then it's high time you started reading about the history of the people responsible for the hiv services and meds at your disposal.


Anyone who doesnt know who Peter is may then be:

A) Very very young
B) Very new to being poz
C) Oblivious as to what happened in the world of HIV prior to their own infection
D) All of the above


True, and I suppose I could have worded it a little better and said something more along the lines of "then please start reading about the history of hiv and activism". Sounds a bit less confrontational, yes?

But I do feel very strongly about people knowing their history surrounding this virus. Not knowing is in large part responsible for the complacency we see today that is allowing government to underfund programs like ADAP. I'm not just talking about politicians' complacency, I'm speaking more to the complacency of the more newly diagnosed who don't seem to be ACTing UP any more. Many aren't really aware of the struggles of the early years, they just know think that today they can take one pill and get on with their lives.

One of the first things I did when newly diagnosed was buy every book I could find on the history. I can give a reading list if anyone is interested.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2011, 10:04:10 AM »
Mecch, must you be so pedantic?

I hardly think we need social etiquette tutorials on how to use the ignore button. If/when we get the ignore feature back - sans the "ignored by" notice in the profiles - we probably won't have this kind of problem again. We never had it before the "ignored by" notice appeared.

Im missing the whole problem I guess. I got too inputs - 1) ignore was bugging some people and moderators for some social network psychology reason, and 2) it was discontinued in a snafu to be reinstated eventually. 

Something else? You mean on someone's profile, it named who ignored this profile?

I misunderstood. I thought some people were arguing that its disactivatation is good because some moderators and members don't approve of people "flaunting" ignore.  Thus my suggestion for a lesson. 

This whole thing would be better clarified in its own thread me thinks.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2011, 10:34:40 AM »
I agree with Bocker here.  Once you ignore someone that's the point - you really got to ignore.  You miss some good posts but you'll avoid the thing that bugged you so much as to want to ignore in the first place.




Do you ever read what you write? Guy that tells people he has them on ignore by quoting the person he has on ignore to tell them he has them on ignore. Mary that ain't ignoring, that's flattery.

Offline Ann

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2011, 12:36:31 PM »
Im missing the whole problem I guess. I got too inputs - 1) ignore was bugging some people and moderators for some social network psychology reason, and 2) it was discontinued in a snafu to be reinstated eventually. 

Something else? You mean on someone's profile, it named who ignored this profile?

I misunderstood. I thought some people were arguing that its disactivatation is good because some moderators and members don't approve of people "flaunting" ignore.  Thus my suggestion for a lesson. 

This whole thing would be better clarified in its own thread me thinks.



~sigh~

The fact is, nobody ever talked about who they were ignoring or speculated about who was ignoring them until that darned "ignored by" thing turned up in everyone's profiles. The ignore button was simply used and rarely mentioned, except sometimes by one of us moderators when we were warning people about flaming each other. As in, "if you don't want to hear what s/he is saying, hit the ignore button". Other than that, it was never discussed.

Since the "ignored by" thing turned up, it became a source of hurt feelings and ignoring or being ignored was becoming frequently used by some members as fodder for flaming each other.

Got it yet? I hope so.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2011, 01:22:17 PM »
Ah OK its clear now. It is new information in the profiles.  I've never seen this new information, and I didn't understand in this thread that was the issue. Thanks for the clarification.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Ann

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2011, 02:40:44 PM »
Mecch, do you actually read the threads you respond to, or do you just read the titles and go for it?
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2011, 03:48:24 PM »
Mecch, do you actually read the threads you respond to, or do you just read the titles and go for it?

I've been accused of the same thing before.  I tend to read quite selectively and ignore (minus the command) the people I don't care for and respond to the others.  Also if a thread is a couple of days or weeks in developing then I sometimes forget what's in the earlier part of the thread.  It's kind of silly to assume someone goes back to the beginning of a thread reads all the way through it and then posts, rather than just reading the recent replies.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2011, 04:36:40 PM »




I read only the even numbered posts.  And, I never go all the way back to the beginning...... because  #1 is an odd number. 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2011, 04:44:17 PM »
I've been accused of the same thing before.  I tend to read quite selectively and ignore (minus the command) the people I don't care for and respond to the others.  Also if a thread is a couple of days or weeks in developing then I sometimes forget what's in the earlier part of the thread.  It's kind of silly to assume someone goes back to the beginning of a thread reads all the way through it and then posts, rather than just reading the recent replies.

Sweet Zombie Jesus. ::)

And the problem with that approach is that the Mooch got shit wrong. Because he failed to read the thread properly he came to an erroneous conclusion.

See how that works, lab partner? To get a full appreciation of a thread you should read the whole fucking thing, not just the bits you're sure won't offend your delicate sensibilities.

MtD

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2011, 05:14:25 PM »
Sweet Zombie Jesus. ::)

And the problem with that approach is that the Mooch got shit wrong. Because he failed to read the thread properly he came to an erroneous conclusion.

See how that works, lab partner? To get a full appreciation of a thread you should read the whole fucking thing, not just the bits you're sure won't offend your delicate sensibilities.

MtD

I don't get offended, but like Dachsund never brings any positive or friendly commentary to a thread.  So I just skip over him for the most part.  Anytime a thread devolves into two or three people jumping onto one person for speaking his/her piece I also skip over that.  It's just how I choose to peruse the forums, if that gets me written off in some people's eyes so be it.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2011, 05:26:57 PM »
I don't get offended, but like Dachsund never brings any positive or friendly commentary to a thread.  So I just skip over him for the most part.  Anytime a thread devolves into two or three people jumping onto one person for speaking his/her piece I also skip over that.  It's just how I choose to peruse the forums, if that gets me written off in some people's eyes so be it.

Two observations, I think:

1. You only reading half of every second thread is not why you get "written off" -- it's the things you post that get you "written off".

2. Decrying personal attacks in a post you opened with a personal attack is prescription strength hypocrisy. Well done. :)

MtD

/edit: tyop/
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 05:29:30 PM by Matty the Damned »

Offline mecch

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2011, 05:30:55 PM »
Mecch, do you actually read the threads you respond to, or do you just read the titles and go for it?

I read the threads.  This is not the first time you say this of me, Ann.

I did not understand the issue Tim had with ignore, until you clarified it for me. Thank you for that.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline BT65

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2011, 05:39:50 PM »
I don't get offended, but like Dachsund never brings any positive or friendly commentary to a thread.

Oh pish posh.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline mecch

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2011, 05:41:47 PM »
Tim remarked in this thread that for the moment we who have pressed ignore will see the post of those previously ignored.  Therefore I notice that I happen to agree with bocker and will look forward to the ignore function coming back.  

I don't put people on ignore because I think they are total jerks without anything useful to say to this forum.  Rather, its an individual feeling, about my own relationship, and at a certain point it protects from a hostile relationship between two people, me and another, and has nothing to do with what goes on for everyone else.  

Also, i don't know about other people who use ignore, but I don't read the forums without signing it. One of the reasons being is that signing in, I get the benefits I wanted with ignore.

If other people want to see it as "ignorers" needing to grow balls, thank you for sharing that view.  I disagree.  I think its fine to avoid relationships that often enough are not productive and which produce hurt or annoyance.  People do this at work, in their social lives, at cocktail parties, etc.  It takes balls to decide to disengage and just ignore in such situations.  

People clearly seem to have strong opinions about the ignore feature and people who use it.   Other people thankfully take ignore in stride. Who the hell cares?

Anyway if I understand correctly, it will be coming back eventually.  
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: Being ignored
« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2011, 05:43:39 PM »
I think we're done here.

I'm locking this one up.

 


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