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Author Topic: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot  (Read 19671 times)

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Offline mecch

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2011, 12:21:23 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/sarah-palin-rebecca-mansour-crosshairs-arizona_n_806375.html

But SarahPAC staffer Rebecca Mansour, who has been tweeting in defense of her boss since the tragedy took place, is stating that the crosshairs were never intended to be gun sights.

"We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights," she said in an interview with talk radio host Tammy Bruce Saturday. "It was simply crosshairs like you'd see on maps." Bruce suggested that they could, in fact, be seen as "surveyor's symbols." Mansour added that "it never occurred to us that anybody would consider it violent" and called any attempts to politicize the Arizona tragedy "repulsive."

The suggestion that the symbols were related to guns seemed to come, however, from Palin herself. On March 23, Palin tweeted to her supporters a note about the aforementioned Facebook message, writing, "Commonsense Conservatives & lovers of America: 'Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!' Pls see my Facebook page." And as Politico's Jonathan Martin points out, in November Palin boasted about defeating 18 of the 20 members on her "bullseye" list.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Joe K

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2011, 12:24:23 PM »
those westboro folk scare the $h!t outta me

They scare everybody and that's the whole point.  Hopefully residents will block their protest from the services.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2011, 12:24:39 PM »
  
sarah is smokin hot, and i sure do have a crush on her, but i would never, ever, vote for her in any office, i mean look at her, she's not even looking through the scope, no cheek to stock, and her finger is already on the trigger?!

    I agree she is "smokin hot".   She's got some show now.....  Sarah Palin's something or another.  I can't remember the exact name.  Well, I tried to watch it, you know for some sort of political scope...lol  In the episode I watched she fell a caribou from 100 yards away.   I was highly aroused because she shot it while almost in a doggy style position....  Swwweeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

  

  
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Offline Joe K

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2011, 12:29:24 PM »
I agree she is "smokin hot".   She's got some show now.....  Sarah Palin's something or another.  I can't remember the exact name.  Well, I tried to watch it, you know for some sort of political scope...lol  In the episode I watched she fell a caribou from 100 yards away.   I was highly aroused because she shot it while almost in a doggy style position....  Swwweeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

Yes, quite the hunter she is... it only took her six shots and the caribou just stood there.  Wow what sport, film killing an animal to make yourself even richer, especially when you don't know how to fire a rifle.  What a Maverick!
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline mecch

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2011, 12:33:35 PM »
Jan Brewer scares me cause she's in power.  Puppet at the pulpit.

The trash swept up into these hate groups get no power finally from the politicians they are most likely to support (conversative).  

Who's pulling these puppet strings? The wealthy and powerful? Kind of nebulous.  I personally do not believe its "the Koch brothers", or Wall Street, per se, or alone.  A scary thought is the strings are being pulled by something societal, not individual.  

Jan Brewer. Sarah Palin. Christine O'Donnell. A gaggle of old hatefilled unimaginative xenophobic visionless bigoted imperialistic Republican Senators who stymied two years of possible government progress. How do these puppets run. Everready batteries?

"Kenneth, what is the Frequency?"

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #105 on: January 09, 2011, 12:33:50 PM »
a totally unrelated cartoon? really? you mean you can't seriously carry on a conversation with me? sheesh. whatever though. ;) your contributions in our "discussions" usually don't amount to much anyway so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. As usual in our history in these forums, I should point out, that it was you, with your unsolicited comments about my postings, that has started this interaction between us. This bit of silliness and your initial nitpicking just shows that you were looking to provoke from the very beginning, not to actually participate.

Made you look. :P

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #106 on: January 09, 2011, 12:37:58 PM »
Yes, quite the hunter she is... it only took her six shots and the caribou just stood there.  Wow what sport, film killing an animal to make yourself even richer, especially when you don't know how to fire a rifle.  What a Maverick!

LOLOL  that was hilarious.  It made her stay in the position longer though.... hell, I think daddy even looked back at her while she missed.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline mecch

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #107 on: January 09, 2011, 12:42:49 PM »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #108 on: January 09, 2011, 12:47:21 PM »
Try telling her adoring fans, who have sponsored her rise to multimillionaire, that she isn't a maverick.
Lies lies lies lies lies and people eat them up like delicious fast food.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline leatherman

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #109 on: January 09, 2011, 01:00:55 PM »
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


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Offline zach

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #110 on: January 09, 2011, 01:05:07 PM »
ever seen the conditions in a slaughter house? where cattle are hit with a pnuematic hammer blow to the head, takes about 5-10 minutes to die that way

palin is obviously an impatient shooter, hopefuly the experience will teach her something about one shot one kill, but at least the kill shot was clean, that caribou dropped instantly

i'm not for glorifying hunting, but it puzzles me the double standard people seem to have with meat... i reconciled the act of killing for my food long ago, i know the reality of it firsthand

next time you eat some delicious fast food, or lace up some leather nikes, consider the condition those cows were "humanely" raised and slaughtered in
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Offline RAB

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #111 on: January 09, 2011, 01:43:57 PM »
This thread has been hijacked so many different ways it's mind boggling.

This horrible tragedy, in my opinion, came about because of the vitriol and hate filled speech that has become so common place in our politics.  Gun control?  Sara Palin? Fast food?

No.

This is the mother of the 9 year old victim speaking out.  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/40989496#40989496

RAB

Edit to add:  When I referenced Sarah Palin I meant it's not about her shooting abilities and being smoking hot.  Her website with the crosshair target is an entirely different matter.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 02:10:08 PM by RAB »

Offline bocker3

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #112 on: January 09, 2011, 02:17:47 PM »
This thread has been hijacked so many different ways it's mind boggling.

This horrible tragedy, in my opinion, came about because of the vitriol and hate filled speech that has become so common place in our politics.  Gun control?  Sara Palin? Fast food?

No.

This is the mother of the 9 year old victim speaking out.  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/40989496#40989496

RAB

Edit to add:  When I referenced Sarah Palin I meant it's not about her shooting abilities and being smoking hot.  Her website with the crosshair target is an entirely different matter.

RAB -

I'm with you here.  One can look at a number of posts here and see exactly why political discourse is probably, at least partially, responsible for this tragedy.  People are passionate in their positions, which is good -- but they label those who don't agree with them as evil and any other bad name you can think of. 
AND -- it's important to note that neither political "side" is innocent of this behavior.

If we demonize all that don't agree with us, then we are to blame also.

Mike
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Offline woodshere

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #113 on: January 09, 2011, 03:22:28 PM »
This horrible tragedy, in my opinion, came about because of the vitriol and hate filled speech that has become so common place in our politics.  
RAB

AGREE!!!  Let us hope that this incident will cause our politicians  to realize that the words and images they use and the way they use them do have influence with the fringe elements of our society.

I have had to take a break from the 24hrs coverage so not sure, but has Palin or any of her followers issued a statement?
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline carousel

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2011, 03:26:25 PM »
Oh come off it, I never said that nor will I ever say that. No crime? Get a grip. Crime is everywhere.

That is NOT what that article states. No where near. ::)

Breathtaking, isn't it.

In 2008/9, just checked the statistics for the UK, there were a total number of homocides of 651.  Of these 39 used guns.

Agreed that there is plenty of crime here, bust if I'm involved in a crime there's more of a chance that I'm going to come away with my life.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2011, 03:58:00 PM »
And this:


Westboro Baptist Church To Picket Funerals Of Arizona Shooting Victims

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html

"Your federal judge is dead and your (fag-promoting, baby-killing, proud-sinner) Congresswoman fights for her life. God is avenging Himself on this rebellious house! WBC prays for your destruction--more shooters, more dead carcasses piling up, young, old, leader and commoner--all. Your doom is upon you!"

No offence to my friends who live in the States..but sweet Jesus you have some sick Mother-F*ckers over there, how the hell can these people call themselves Christians...IMHO these people have committed many crimes just by being on this planet...they make me sick to my stomach.

Jan
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2011, 04:21:08 PM »
No offence to my friends who live in the States..but sweet Jesus you have some sick Mother-F*ckers over there, how the hell can these people call themselves Christians...IMHO these people have committed many crimes just by being on this planet...they make me sick to my stomach.

Jan

No offense taken as far as Im concerned . You are correct , they are sick f*ckers and this group has been at it for a long while now  . The far right lost they're mind the day our president was elected and things have gone from bad to much worse . The only thing surprising about all this to me that it took this long to happen .


Offline zach

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2011, 04:48:41 PM »
True enough, this thread has been hijacked, for my part in that I'll apologize. Being in the off topic area, a little of that is to be expected I think. This forum is simply a microcosm of the same debate taking place in the media.
pour the coldest beer
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cheers

Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2011, 08:53:10 PM »
Jan Brewer lied about her nazi-fighting heroic father.
Jan Brewer lied about headless bodies in the desert.
Jan Brewer was elected despite these bald faced lies, because a certain electorate in the US wants these bald faced lies.




Yes, she has created quite the state of bigotry and hatred, but that's another subject.  But have you taken a good look at this woman? She's  another one that apparently views the world through the bottom of a Whiskey bottle. I wonder if they had to pull her out of happy hour yesterday ,  so she could make her statement. And John Boehner, with all that blubbering.  Another one that hits the bottle. This is only my opinion  But I digress....  It's a fucking crazy ass world out there.


Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
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Offline komnaes

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2011, 08:58:30 PM »
I'm sure you can understand what a "responsible gun owner" is. it's not that hard.  ;) For brevity sake - a responsible gun owner is one that owns a gun and does not kill people with it.

Yes I do. A "responsible" gun owner is not only someone who would never use or even contemplate to use his/her guns to harm innocent people under any circumstances; he/she will take measures to prevent that from happening and also make sure the guns they own or under their possession to be used by anyone else to do the same. If a "responsible" gun owner begins to realize that he/she maybe at the risk of being unstable himself/herself, he/she would have taken steps to even prevent himself/herself from having access to the guns they own.

What your definition of a "responsible gun owner" is just someone, at best, who's yet to use the guns to commit a crime.
Aug 07 Diagnosed
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BobF

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #120 on: January 10, 2011, 12:40:13 AM »

In my opinion, this national tragedy is a direct result of the hateful discourse by Palin, Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh, Tea Party, Right-wing Republicans, etc.    Lock and load, revolution, 2nd Amendment references, comments that their political opponents are trying to destroy America are all phrases used by these lunatics that incIte hatred, violence, disrespect for the office of the President, and discrimination.  God save the USA and the President from these Palin crazies.   Pray for the Giffords, other victims of this attack on America, true American patriots, and for a return to respectful political discourse without personal attacks.  

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #121 on: January 10, 2011, 12:46:31 AM »

Really,... That surprises me,..  Basic cable here in Pinellas County ( which is also conservative) Shows MSNBC , on Brighthouse basic and Fios basic.   HHHMMMmmmmmm... Where you at? Ft Myers or Naples?


And Edfu ,  thanks for sharing the Olberman clip.   Somehow I missed it.  Fell asleep.

Ray

It is the Port Charlotte/Englewood area.  They have Comcast cable, which I thought was buying NBC.  So, it was strange to me that they would block MSNBC.  I have this device called a Slingbox that allows you to watch your home DVR/TIVO from any computer or your phone anywhere around the world.  So, I've been doing that.  I refuse to watch FOX.  

Back on the tragedy, all my conservative friends on facebook are saying we "liberals" are going overboard on this.  One suggested I am probably blaming Sarah for the Colts losing.  They just don't get it.    

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2011, 06:20:48 AM »

In my opinion, this national tragedy is a direct result of the hateful discourse by Palin, Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh, Tea Party, Right-wing Republicans, etc.    Lock and load, revolution, 2nd Amendment references, comments that their political opponents are trying to destroy America are all phrases used by these lunatics that incIte hatred, violence, disrespect for the office of the President, and discrimination.  God save the USA and the President from these Palin crazies.   Pray for the Giffords, other victims of this attack on America, true American patriots, and for a return to respectful political discourse without personal attacks.  

You don't think his Mental Health had anything to do with it.  ::)

Offline bocker3

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2011, 07:38:28 AM »
You don't think his Mental Health had anything to do with it.  ::)

Of course it did -- but diatribes fall on the ears of the sane and the insane unlike.  Unfortuately only the sane are able to properly analyze it.

Having said that -- the lunatic right does not have a monopoly on this overblown rhetoric.  The lunatic left does it too.  Just so happens that this time it appears that noise coming from the right found an unbalanced mind that fed off it -- to these tragic ends. 

So, I would be shocked if you really, honestly felt that things like Palin's gun-sight map didn't have a roll in this guys thought process.  Of course, I expect you to say you don't, but I won't believe it.

Mike
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Offline zach

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2011, 07:44:44 AM »
i've read through all his ramblings, he doesn't seem right wing at all to me, quite the opposite, seems extremely leftist

he was mentally unstable, and had shown many signs of it in the past, and it seems clear that someone should have seen that he was recently on a downward spriral

i think both sides have co-opted this story for political leverage, i dont think he was influenced by anything said by either side, other than the lunatic voices in his head

Of course it did -- but diatribes fall on the ears of the sane and the insane unlike.  Unfortuately only the sane are able to properly analyze it.

Having said that -- the lunatic right does not have a monopoly on this overblown rhetoric.  The lunatic left does it too.  Just so happens that this time it appears that noise coming from the right found an unbalanced mind that fed off it -- to these tragic ends. 

So, I would be shocked if you really, honestly felt that things like Palin's gun-sight map didn't have a roll in this guys thought process.  Of course, I expect you to say you don't, but I won't believe it.

Mike
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Offline randym431

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2011, 08:29:48 AM »
The whole problem is, if no one mentioned it yet, is that there are a lot of nut cases walking around. People that look perfectly normal for the most part. People that for the most part just slime through life living in their own little distorted fantasy world. What wakes them up and motivates them to violence, in my opinion, are people like Rush Limbaugh and so many others on the airwaves that say the most harmful outlandish things, only to get ratings. Knowing too well they have an unstable listening audience that follows their every word, that they play up to.
I'm just waiting for the time these people, the motivators, are finally held accountable and pay for their part in the violence.

Freedom of speech is one thing, but falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater is another.
The latter is just what talk show hosts, like the slime Rush Limbaugh, is doing.
And they get away with it every time, with no accountability.

Offline Ann

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2011, 09:09:25 AM »
i've read through all his ramblings, he doesn't seem right wing at all to me, quite the opposite, seems extremely leftist

he was mentally unstable, and had shown many signs of it in the past, and it seems clear that someone should have seen that he was recently on a downward spriral

i think both sides have co-opted this story for political leverage, i dont think he was influenced by anything said by either side, other than the lunatic voices in his head


I have to basically agree with you here, although he does not seem to me to be either firmly on the left or the right. His views seem to be a jumble of both sides - evidenced by his liking of both Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto.

As someone on the outside looking in (meaning I'm not immersed in the American media), it looks like this kid is suffering from schizophrenia. He's got pretty much all the classic symptoms and he's the right age for it to come to a head in such a tragic way.

It is REALLY tempting to blame it all on the Sarah Palins of this world, but I think that is not the case here. This kid is sick, and that's the end of it. He was railing against government in general, not Giffords specifically. He could have been living anywhere and the outcome would have been similar - unless of course if he lived in a place like the UK where it is so much more difficult to get your hands on a gun.

In my opinion, the focus here should be more on what is being done to ensure the mentally ill in society are taken care of so they are not a danger to themselves and/or others instead of making it into a political circus. For heaven's sake, he was booted from his college because it was feared he was a danger to himself or others, he was rejected from the army (my guess is he didn't pass the psychological tests - and that's pretty scary considering who was administering the tests), and yet he got a gun permit?

Wow.

Oh, and another thing.... he lived with his parents. How could they not notice that something was amiss? They should be held culpable too.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2011, 09:32:18 AM »
There is a false equivalence between left and right that is tossed around in situations like this. That left and right are equally responsible for incendiary rhetoric. Someone please give me an example of a Fox news on the left. Or Sarah Palin, the tea party, Beck, Limbaugh, Coulter or the Family Research Council. Give me examples of progressives who dehumanize gays, women and minorities. Deny the vitriol that is spewed out by the right on a daily basis. You can't, and you can't create a false left right equivalence.

  
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 09:34:18 AM by Dachshund »

Offline woodshere

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2011, 09:33:10 AM »
Oh, and another thing.... he lived with his parents. How could they not notice that something was amiss? They should be held culpable too.

Especially since in the back yard there was an alter with candles and a human skulll.

As regarding what caused this I think it is a combination of a crazy kid, Arizona gun laws and the heated rhetoric used by politicians and talking heads.
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #129 on: January 10, 2011, 09:35:12 AM »

Having said that -- the lunatic right does not have a monopoly on this overblown rhetoric.  The lunatic left does it too.

And, I must assume, you find that the intensity level is exactly the same on both sides?  You know, like people running for office on the left side threatening to rub out opponents with gun violence?

OK.

It's nice and fun to make equivalencies bocker (the media does it all of the time), but the difference is that on the right the "lunatic" portion has actually taken over the Republican party.  On the left it's confined to bloggers and forum comments.
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Offline zach

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #130 on: January 10, 2011, 09:41:30 AM »
June 14, 2008 “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”

Just saying, there are enough teachable moments here to go around the table a few times. For the record, I voted for him. It is not confined just to bloggers, it goes all the way up.


And, I must assume, you find that the intensity level is exactly the same on both sides?  You know, like people running for office on the left side threatening to rub out opponents with gun violence?

OK.

It's nice and fun to make equivalencies bocker (the media does it all of the time), but the difference is that on the right the "lunatic" portion has actually taken over the Republican party.  On the left it's confined to bloggers and forum comments.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #131 on: January 10, 2011, 09:45:47 AM »
I would agree he is probably schizo.

and its not clear hes "right" or "left" though the news has said that FBI has linked him to right hate groups.

Most of the bizarre ramblings - if they could be put in a camp - seem to be more in the right field, unless one considers that Libertarianism is rather often considered far left. Its so far left it meets the far right, as in the case of Tea Partiers who can include both extremes occasionally.

I don't think we should let the "Medium" Right off the hook for their incendiary media campaigns - its perfectly possible this creates the atmosphere in which a crazy person feels entitled to his "reality" reshaping actions

The point about Palins gun sites is NOT to say she caused this, anymore than Marilyn Manson was ready to take the rap for Columbine.  Its rather to point out the gross concurrence of supposedly sane, responsible rhetoric (Palin was ACTUALLY a VP Candidate) and insane thoughts (nut cases, hate groups).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 09:49:05 AM by mecch »
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Offline OneTampa

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2011, 09:47:33 AM »
It appears that Daniel Hernandez, the 20 year old intern that helped to save Rep. Giffords life was only on the job 5 days, is Latino, and openly gay. Many are calling him a hero.

Several reports here:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2011_01/027452.php

http://www.lgbtpov.com/2011/01/gay-latino-intern-credited-with-helping-save-rep-giffords-life/

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/man-who-saved-rep-giffords-life-is-openly-gay/
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 09:52:05 AM by OneTampa »
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2011, 09:55:34 AM »
June 14, 2008 “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”

Just saying, there are enough teachable moments here to go around the table a few times. For the record, I voted for him. It is not confined just to bloggers, it goes all the way up.



Yes you're right. Obama is the epitome of not trying to find compromise with the other side. His left wing hate speech is legendary.

Offline OneTampa

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2011, 10:07:42 AM »
And to Ann's point about the gunman's parents--where are they now?  I suspect that they are in hiding.
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #135 on: January 10, 2011, 10:17:47 AM »
June 14, 2008 “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”

Just saying, there are enough teachable moments here to go around the table a few times. For the record, I voted for him. It is not confined just to bloggers, it goes all the way up.



I don't think you're getting my point -- if you can dig up (hypothetically) one example of such talk on the left, and I dig up 20 on the right, are you still willing to make equivalencies to argue a point?  That's what I was saying.

And, of course, context is important -- the "left base" isn't known for having multitudes of NRA supporters showing up at political events with guns.  Well, unless you believe the Fox News propaganda that the party of hippies, baby killers and cocksuckers have been taken over by Black Panthers.

Next thing someone will convince me of the existence of numerous left wing militia groups around the country.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 10:22:15 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2011, 01:27:22 PM »
There is a false equivalence between left and right that is tossed around in situations like this. That left and right are equally responsible for incendiary rhetoric. Someone please give me an example of a Fox news on the left. Or Sarah Palin, the tea party, Beck, Limbaugh, Coulter or the Family Research Council. Give me examples of progressives who dehumanize gays, women and minorities. Deny the vitriol that is spewed out by the right on a daily basis. You can't, and you can't create a false left right equivalence.

  
]

Christ I thought the day would never come, we agree on something.

Also
I have to basically agree with you here, although he does not seem to me to be either firmly on the left or the right. His views seem to be a jumble of both sides - evidenced by his liking of both Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto.

As someone on the outside looking in (meaning I'm not immersed in the American media), it looks like this kid is suffering from schizophrenia. He's got pretty much all the classic symptoms and he's the right age for it to come to a head in such a tragic way.

It is REALLY tempting to blame it all on the Sarah Palins of this world, but I think that is not the case here. This kid is sick, and that's the end of it. He was railing against government in general, not Giffords specifically. He could have been living anywhere and the outcome would have been similar - unless of course if he lived in a place like the UK where it is so much more difficult to get your hands on a gun.

In my opinion, the focus here should be more on what is being done to ensure the mentally ill in society are taken care of so they are not a danger to themselves and/or others instead of making it into a political circus. For heaven's sake, he was booted from his college because it was feared he was a danger to himself or others, he was rejected from the army (my guess is he didn't pass the psychological tests - and that's pretty scary considering who was administering the tests), and yet he got a gun permit?

Wow.

Oh, and another thing.... he lived with his parents. How could they not notice that something was amiss? They should be held culpable too.

This is right on the money in my opinion.  This isn't actually about gun control aside from the fact that someone who was so obviously mentally ill should never have even been let in the door much less allowed to actually buy a gun.  This isn't so much about political rhetoric except that what you and I see as fiery political speech is seen by the crazies of the world as an impassioned speech galvanizing them into action.  This is about one crazy motherfucker who decided it was his job to take matters into his own hands and the result is truly a tragedy.  I don't think this could have been prevented with any amount of legislation, unfortunately.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2011, 01:40:48 PM »
The high-capacity magazine of the semiautomatic pistol used in the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and more than a dozen other people on Saturday would have been illegal to manufacture and difficult to purchase under the Clinton-era assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #138 on: January 10, 2011, 02:24:36 PM »
Of course it did -- but diatribes fall on the ears of the sane and the insane unlike.  Unfortuately only the sane are able to properly analyze it.

Having said that -- the lunatic right does not have a monopoly on this overblown rhetoric.  The lunatic left does it too.  Just so happens that this time it appears that noise coming from the right found an unbalanced mind that fed off it -- to these tragic ends. 

So, I would be shocked if you really, honestly felt that things like Palin's gun-sight map didn't have a roll in this guys thought process.  Of course, I expect you to say you don't, but I won't believe it.

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Offline zach

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2011, 03:27:10 PM »
The high-capacity magazine of the semiautomatic pistol used in the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and more than a dozen other people on Saturday would have been illegal to manufacture and difficult to purchase under the Clinton-era assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004.


you're cute when you troll  ;) i'm teasing of course
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 03:39:56 PM by zach »
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #140 on: January 10, 2011, 03:33:25 PM »

you're cute when you troll  ;)

The statement Dachs made is a fact , not a troll statement by any definition .

Offline RAB

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2011, 03:43:54 PM »
Absolutely true.  If the assault ban had not expired under Bush, he in all probability would have had a cartridge only capable of holding 10 bullets, not 30 (33? I've heard both).  It was only after he emptied the first cartridge and was reloading that someone wrestled him to the ground.  Ending his rampage.

Ironically,  when I logged in, what was the ad at the very top of the page?
An ad for a "sniper scope" on sale for $99.99.  Yee Gawd!

RAB 

Offline anniebc

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #142 on: January 10, 2011, 04:16:48 PM »
As my friends here know I know nothing about Politics, especially American Politics..Right, Left,  mean nothing to me, but I always thought that someone who was so steeped in Poitics and the believes of their own party were called Fanatic's:

Definition of Fanatical: ..Excessive enthusiasm to a cause or idea.

Definition of Lunatic: ..afflicted with or exhibiting and irrational and mental unsoundness.

From what we have read so far about this man has nothing to do with Politics, he wasn't fighting for any cause, the only thing he was fighting was his own demons, he has shown quite a few signs of being mentally unstable...he was a Lunatic,...and one that obviously needed a great deal of help, he was not a fanatical, so this has nothing to do with Politics has it.

Burning candles and Skulls in the garden, come on,..is this what Political extremist's do over in the States?

Jan
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Offline RAB

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #143 on: January 10, 2011, 04:32:55 PM »
As my friends here know I know nothing about Politics, especially American Politics..Right, Left,  mean nothing to me, but I always thought that someone who was so steeped in Poitics and the believes of their own party were called Fanatic's:

Definition of Fanatical: ..Excessive enthusiasm to a cause or idea.

Definition of Lunatic: ..afflicted with or exhibiting and irrational and mental unsoundness.

From what we have read so far about this man has nothing to do with Politics, he wasn't fighting for any cause, the only thing he was fighting was his own demons, he has shown quite a few signs of being mentally unstable...he was a Lunatic,...and one that obviously needed a great deal of help, he was not a fanatical, so this has nothing to do with Politics has it.

Burning candles and Skulls in the garden, come on,..is this what Political extremist's do over in the States?

Jan
 

You are right Jan, I don't think any of us have suggested he was fighting for a cause.  I don't think any of us are overlooking the fact that clearly this man was mentally unstable.

I certainly don't perceive him as being a political extremist, beyond the fact thathe hated government, and even felt that the school he was attending was unconstitutional.

However, given all of that, I think that the vitriol from the right, "don't retreat, reload", crosshairs on a map targeting certain elected officials (One of whom was Gifford), could have (in my opinion, probably did) play a role in motivating him to do what he did.

We probably will never know for sure.  But the fact he was mentally unstable is clearly the primary issue, the question remains, were there other mitigating factors?

RAB

Offline woodshere

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #144 on: January 10, 2011, 05:00:17 PM »
Burning candles and Skulls in the garden, come on,..is this what Political extremist's do over in the States?

Jan

Unless he was a follower of Christine O'Donnell of Delaware.... :)  (what's another hijack on a thread that has journeyed across as wide a plain as I have seen in a very long time)
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #145 on: January 10, 2011, 05:20:17 PM »
Absolutely true.  If the assault ban had not expired under Bush, he in all probability would have had a cartridge only capable of holding 10 bullets, not 30 (33? I've heard both).  It was only after he emptied the first cartridge and was reloading that someone wrestled him to the ground.  Ending his rampage.

Ironically,  when I logged in, what was the ad at the very top of the page?
An ad for a "sniper scope" on sale for $99.99.  Yee Gawd!

RAB 
Rab it's called a clip or magazine, you city slicker you.  ;)

Offline zach

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #146 on: January 10, 2011, 06:02:32 PM »
i really didn't wanna point this out

they were called pre ban hi cap mags ;D

i think i've still got a stash buried behind my garden, just in case ;-)

folks, this tragedy was beyond comprehension, and there were plenty of red flags he should not have been issued a firearms permit, but responsible gun owners are shouldn't take the fall for it
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #147 on: January 10, 2011, 06:27:27 PM »
And, I must assume, you find that the intensity level is exactly the same on both sides?  You know, like people running for office on the left side threatening to rub out opponents with gun violence?

OK.

It's nice and fun to make equivalencies bocker (the media does it all of the time), but the difference is that on the right the "lunatic" portion has actually taken over the Republican party.  On the left it's confined to bloggers and forum comments.

Yes, the intensity is the same -- the intensity of demonization of the other side.  Now, I'm not saying the words are the same, or the threats -- but one can't have a CIVIL DISCUSSION with members of either side.  The "I'm right and you are evil." attitude that permeates most political discussions (even, on these very forums) is what feeds those who go even further and start to level threats of bodily harm.

I can remember many folks wishing George W. dead, although, I will agree with you that the far right is far more prone to this sort of thing, because they like to wrap it up with gun ownership.

Finally, I know that you are intelligent, Miss P -- you should be able to read a post and grasp at a concept over a full blown verbatim reading.  Although, I never claimed "equivalence" -- I said that neither side has a monopoly on overheated rhetoric and I'll stand by that.

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Offline anniebc

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #148 on: January 10, 2011, 06:38:09 PM »
but responsible gun owners are shouldn't take the fall for it

We have extremely strict gun laws here in NZ, my husband and I have a .243 and a .22 for hunting, actually I have never fired mine, except for target practice on my own property.

We are not allowed to own a pistol or any other type of fire arm for that matter..they can be obtained illegally of course, but if you don't have big bucks you are not going to get one, we can't just simply walk into a shop and buy a rifle without a clearance certificate.

Aroha
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Offline edfu

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Re: Ariz. Congresswoman Shot
« Reply #149 on: January 10, 2011, 07:18:01 PM »
John Aravosis, of Americablog.com, on Roger Ailes's claim that "both sides do it":

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
Fascinating notion that "both sides do it." Did our vice presidential candidate, Joe Biden, take down a bullseye he had drawn on the districts of GOP members of Congress? Where is the Vice President's bullseye, like GOP vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin's bullseye, if both sides do it?

What Ailes means is that the leadership of the GOP, and their propaganda organ, do "it" all the time - "it" meaning "cross the line of decency" - whereas the occasional person on the left, usually an anonymous commenter on a blog, are the ones who do "it" on the Democratic side. On our side it tends to be an abberation. On their side, the abberation is elevated to the leadership of the party, given its own show on FOX News, or both.

The Republican party, and American conservatives, have a fetish for violent imagery in words and pictures. It's why Republicans think it funny that their supporters bring guns to Obama rallies. It's why Glenn Beck can claim on FOX News that President Obama plans to eliminate 10% of the US population in some kind of genocide, and Beck still keeps his job. It's why Sarah Palin (the woman who coined the phrase "death panels" - suggesting that Democrats, and our president at the lead, had a plot to kill millions of elderly Americans for sport - a ridiculous, and incendiary, notion that was embraced by the leadership of the Republican party and its propaganda organ, FOX News) can put bullseyes on the districts of Democratic members of Congress, and even tell her followers to "lock and reload," and all the Republicans laugh at how funny the violent imagery and words are.

We on the left have been complaining for years about the right's embrace of violence, and how its rhetoric feeds America's already out of control violent culture. There is nothing opportunistic about continuing to express that concern when a congresswoman is almost assassinated (and a federal judge and a 9 year old girl are assassinated) after Sarah Palin put a bullseye on the woman's district - and refuses to remove the bullseye after the congresswoman expresses the concern that someone may take it as an exhortation to violence.

Has the right been constantly bemoaning a left-wing leadership embrace of violence, and somehow we all missed it?

Anyone who has visited Europe, Western Europe in particular, and especially those of us who have lived there, know all too well how unique America's culture of violence is. In European capitals you generally don't worry about walking home alone at 1, even 3, in the morning through deserted neighborhoods. Try that in Washington, DC. And if you do get robbed in Europe, odds are you won't be hurt. In Washington, odds are you'll be shot, knifed, or hit in the head - or in my case, they'll simply try to strangle you to death on a busy street, in a nice neighborhood, at 8 o'clock in the evening.

Yes, we live in a great country. And it has a serious problem with violence. Rather than acknowledging the problem, and steering clear of tempting the metaphorical drunk, as it were, our conservative friends try to tap into the violence, in the hopes it will propel them to victory at the ballot box.

There is no left-wing NRA. There is no vice presidential candidate on the Democratic side who puts bullseyes on the districts of members of Congress he doesn't like. And there is no Republican presidential nominee who has seen a spike in death threats in part because of the ramblings of the other team's noise machine and its elected officials.

When you tell people that Democrats in Congress, and the White House, are planning to institute death panels to kill their grandmother, how do you expect them to respond - with roses?

There aren't two sides to the Republicans' embrace of guns, violence, and angry mobs. It's all theirs. And it's time the media stopped pretending otherwise.

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