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Author Topic: Kidney function Decline  (Read 3135 times)

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Offline veritas

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Kidney function Decline
« on: December 29, 2010, 06:13:58 AM »

Here's an interesting paper that shows decline in kidney function as we age, based on eGFR values.  The paper gives median values based on age and possible action plans with respect to gfr values.

Anyone taking truvada should probably give it a read in order to understand the decline in kidney function.




https://www.labcorp.com/pdf/Estimated_Glomerular_Filtration_Rate_eGFRL1137_1207_2.pdf


v

Offline bocker3

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2010, 07:56:06 AM »
Here we go again -- let's cause fear and angst by putting in a study that never mentions HIV in the Living with HIV forum.  Calling out all those who take Truvada to read it because (the assumption goes) you will be here someday.  While some who take Truvada will develop kidney issues, there is nothing that I've seen that says it is inevitable, after all thousands who have never touched a Truvada tablet have developed CKD.  Keep your complusion for doom and gloom to yourself please.

Hopefully a moderator will move this where it belongs, which is NOT in living with HIV.
Atripla - Started 12/05
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Offline veritas

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2010, 12:36:46 PM »

Mike,

Evidently, you think information is fear and angst. This paper shows average kidney decline with age in the general population. I have a lot more faith in the people reading these forums to be able to understand what this particular paper says and if they don't they will ask questions. Comparing one's gfr results with the general population (especially those who are taking truvada where a potential problem could arise ) will relieve one's ANGST if there gfr readings fall within the avg pop. If their reading is lower, they can relieve their angst by speaking to their IDs.
I believe this paper should be in the "living with" forum since gfr values are usually taken for those on truvada, routinely.
Mike, your tendency to coddle the readers of these forums is probably doing some members a dis-service.


v

Offline bocker3

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2010, 03:39:24 PM »
Mike,

Mike, your tendency to coddle the readers of these forums is probably doing some members a dis-service.


v

We are going to have to disagree on this point.  You see -- I do, personally, believe that information is power - as do you, I would assume.  However, I don't assume that of everyone else sees it that way.  There are clearly members here who "freak out" over things that happen to populations -- thinking that it means it will happen to them.  Throwing a study at these folks with a lead in that "Anyone taking Truvada should read it in order to understand the decline in kidney function", could well leave those folks thinking that Truvada = kidney function decline (which it does not).

So...  I don't have an issue with you posting this study, per se -- it is how you posted it.  You are assuming everyone can, will or wants to understand things to the level you do -- I don't make that assumption.  If people are on Truvada they should be having their kidney function monitored -- understanding how a kidney might decline in someone, in this detail, is probably unnecessary for most.  It's not about coddling, it's about understanding that some folks have a limit to the "info" they want to and/or can digest.

Although, I stand by my statement that LWH was not the correct forum for this research paper, as it has nothing to do with HIV.  Clearly, I wasn't alone in that thought, as it's been moved.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
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Offline veritas

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2010, 04:28:16 PM »

Yes, it has been moved without explanation.

Everyone who takes Truvada has a GFR done as standard of care. I have found the overwhelming majority are looking for information, after all, that's the reason they come to these forums in the first place. So those folks who want the information will read it. They should have that opportunity. Those that don't want that detail, won't read it.  Your right, we are going to have to disagree on this point.

Not only should it be in LWH, but perhaps in treatment and side effects, also. It has everything to do with HIV. Using your logic, perhaps we shouldn't talk about LIPO or Neuropathy or any other AE that is difficult to talk about. None of this information is fun to digest, but dam it, it's important. Sometimes I just have to shake my head at  the arbitrary reactions I see on these forums. But then again, maybe I understand it all too well~!

v

Offline bocker3

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2010, 05:44:11 PM »
Not only should it be in LWH, but perhaps in treatment and side effects, also. It has everything to do with HIV. Using your logic, perhaps we shouldn't talk about LIPO or Neuropathy or any other AE that is difficult to talk about.
No, the study had nothing to do with HIV -- it had to do with CKD.  It didn't talk about HIV or Truvada -- most cases of CKD has nothing to do with HIV.  Now, if you wanted to talk about Truvada and the potential for kidney issues, that is different.  What I either am doing a bad job explaining or you aren't seeing is that my concern is around throwing out this study with a lead in that pertains to nothing.  Most people come for layman answers, not a study that may or may not pertain to them or that they may or may not be able to properly process.  I agree with your goal of providing answers to questions -- I just don't see your approach as being right for a proactive approach.

None of this information is fun to digest, but dam it, it's important. Sometimes I just have to shake my head at  the arbitrary reactions I see on these forums. But then again, maybe I understand it all too well~!

I think your problem here is that your are projecting YOUR NEEDS and how YOU LIKE TO RECEIVE info on everyone else.  You might not agree with those who choose to "stick their heads in the sand", but that isn't your choice to make.  I have a friend, who's positive, who wants as little info as possible.  When something comes up, he talks to his doctor or he asks me specific questions.  I don't understand how he can deal with HIV that way, but I respect it as his choice.

Again, I think we don't differ on intent, only on approach.

M
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline veritas

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2010, 05:47:53 AM »


CKD is a very real potential problem with those taking Truvada (although the extent of the problem especially with long term use still needs to be determined). As with any med, some will see aes sooner than others, some won't see any at all, however, ALL should be aware of the side-effects along with the tools to determine where they stand with respect to CKD. If you had read the study carefully, you would have seen the graph of the average decline in kidney function with respect to age which could  be compared to the results of one's own gfr results to determine the appropriate course of action with one's ID.

Again, I believe you underestimate the ability of the members to process information. Those who want to "stick their heads" in the sand are probably not reading these forums (33million infected, 12,000 members). Those who come here are looking for as much information as possible.

Your approach is more of a grade school approach, with no thought to the ability of the members to process information. I dare say the majority of the members here are quite capable of reading and understanding that study. I don't believe in a mamby-pamby approach in dealing with the members of this forum when it comes to providing necessary information. I give them a lot more credit than that!

Mike, I don't think we will see eye to eye on this matter, so we must agree to disagree.

v

Offline Ann

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2010, 07:38:50 AM »
Yes, it has been moved without explanation.

I didn't think it warranted an explanation as Mike already said it all.

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Offline bocker3

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2010, 08:12:04 AM »

CKD is a very real potential problem with those taking Truvada (although the extent of the problem especially with long term use still needs to be determined). As with any med, some will see aes sooner than others, some won't see any at all, however, ALL should be aware of the side-effects along with the tools to determine where they stand with respect to CKD. If you had read the study carefully, you would have seen the graph of the average decline in kidney function with respect to age which could  be compared to the results of one's own gfr results to determine the appropriate course of action with one's ID.

Again, I believe you underestimate the ability of the members to process information. Those who want to "stick their heads" in the sand are probably not reading these forums (33million infected, 12,000 members). Those who come here are looking for as much information as possible.

Your approach is more of a grade school approach, with no thought to the ability of the members to process information. I dare say the majority of the members here are quite capable of reading and understanding that study. I don't believe in a mamby-pamby approach in dealing with the members of this forum when it comes to providing necessary information. I give them a lot more credit than that!

Mike, I don't think we will see eye to eye on this matter, so we must agree to disagree.

v

I have highlighted the most important part of your post -- there are many "Potential" problems that we face -- both poz or neg.  Most people don't want it thrown in their face in minute detail.

Finally, I don't think that it is about you giving them credit for processing info, you simply can not comprehend that someone in these forums might have different wants and needs than yours, because you are so fucking sure that your way is the right way.  So, you are, in fact, following the "grade school" route, by telling everyone what it is they should know -- you are not giving them the respect to allow them to ask, you are simply assuming.

An analogy (not perfect, but you should get the idea).

When someone TELLS me they are thirsty, I will give them a glass of water.  When you see someone, you ASSUME they will become thirsty and send them plans on how to build a desalination plant.  Why?  Because drinking water is important and everyone should know how to provide safe drinking water!

Again -- I laud your intent, but your style is probably having a different impact than you want.

Happy New Year.
Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline veritas

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2010, 01:53:15 PM »

Mike,

Even though you seem to be the only one with a problem with the post, Happy New Year to you too.

By the way, have you been to the "Youkon" lately?

v

Offline bocker3

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Re: Kidney function Decline
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2010, 02:39:57 PM »
Mike,

Even though you seem to be the only one with a problem with the post, Happy New Year to you too.

By the way, have you been to the "Youkon" lately?

v

Perhaps I am -- or, perhaps others just aren't wasting their time trying to get you to see another option.  My PM's would suggest the latter.

You will have to enlighten me on your "Youkon" comment, as you've lost me.

M
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

 


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