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Author Topic: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles  (Read 6415 times)

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Offline tednlou2

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British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« on: December 09, 2010, 07:29:01 PM »
Why do Europeans seem to be more willing to protest when the government tries to fuck them?  Here in the states, we usually just sit back and let things happen.  I'm totally against violence, but it is hard to get us to show up with a protest sign.  This seems to be the case ever since the Vietnam War. 

I wasn't aware that British subjects now have to pay for university instead of it being free as it use to be.  They just voted to raise it from $5,000/yr to $15,000/yr.  For us here, that sounds like a bargain.  Are all University fees a set price in the UK?  Here, tuition fees vary from college to college.  Is the UK becoming more like the U.S. where even their healthcare will turn into our system?

Prince Charles and the Dutchess of Cornbeef were on their way to theatre when student protesters attacked their Rolls Royce.  The reporter said it was bullet-proof, but the window was shattered.  I'm surprised the Royal's cars aren't protected better.  If you've ever been up close to our presidents car, called the Beast, the doors are 5 inches thick. 

You can watch the story about the University increase and the Royal "attack". 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/ns/nightly_news/#40595430 

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 07:54:23 PM »
Oh Theodore, they may not protest in Louisville, home of Dainty White Women, but people do in fact demonstrate in large US cities.  And a large US city is what you should be comparing this idea with in terms of a place like London.

btw, I'm talking about general protests as that's what you seemed to reference and not so much the extreme violence of this particular London protest
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 08:27:17 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 08:30:16 PM »
They protest in small cities also. 1970 Kent State University. Killing 4 people and injuring 9. The size of a city has no bearing.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 08:45:50 PM »
They protest in small cities also. 1970 Kent State University. Killing 4 people and injuring 9. The size of a city has no bearing.

Kent State isn't a city, it's a college campus.  Come on Roddles, at least amuse me by pointing out a sordid tea bagger brigade of 128 people in Cincinnati, preferably in colonial costumes and Don't Tread On Me t-shirts.

So Roddles, since you're a LTS'er I take it you marched in ACT-UP demos with nasty liberals in the late 80's in the Big C?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 08:47:24 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 09:07:42 PM »
http://www.kentohio.org/  Enough said..

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 09:13:07 PM »
http://www.kentohio.org/  Enough said..

Remind me what your IQ is again Roddles -- read your post, it said quite clearly "Kent State University" meaning the campus.  Did the protest happen on or off campus?

Also, did you or did you not participate in HIV/AIDS protest in the late 80's?  I can just see you now screaming about Reagan and Bush and screaming "Silence Equals Death!"
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 09:21:51 PM »
Remind me what your IQ is again Roddles -- read your post, it said quite clearly "Kent State University" meaning the campus.  Did the protest happen on or off campus?

Also, did you or did you not participate in HIV/AIDS protest in the late 80's?  I can just see you now screaming about Reagan and Bush and screaming "Silence Equals Death!"
Ms P. guess you got a damper put on your party. Kent State Universities main campus where the protests took place was in the City of Kent. Like you know anything about it anyway.

Offline leatherman

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 09:22:11 PM »
Kent State isn't a city, it's a college campus.
I would imagine that Rod understands that a University is not a city. The shooting and uprising is better known as and named for the campus on which it happened; however it is located in the small city of Kent, Ohio. Splitting hairs like this kind of looks silly and really isn't a matter of IQ but of your political stance vs Rod's political stance. It's all the more silly looking when you consider that Rod was backing up your comment to Ted by using an example of a demonstration in the US, and adding to your comment by illustrating that demonstrations happen even in small American cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent,_Ohio
Quote
Kent is a city in the U.S. state of Ohio and the largest city in Portage County. It is located along the Cuyahoga River in Northeastern Ohio on the western edge of the county. The population was 27,906 at the 2000 United States Census and 27,983 in the 2008 estimate. The city is counted as part of the Akron Metropolitan Statistical Area and the larger Cleveland-Akron-Elyria Combined Statistical Area.

Part of the Connecticut Western Reserve, Kent was originally settled in 1805 and was known as Franklin Mills. Settlers were initially attracted to the area due to its location along the Cuyahoga River as a place for water-powered mills..... In 1864 the village was renamed Kent in honor of and in gratitude for Marvin Kent's efforts. Today Kent is a college town best known as the home of the main campus of Kent State University, founded in 1910, and as the site of the 1970 Kent State shootings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
Quote
The Kent State shootings Ė also known as the May 4 massacre or Kent State massacre Ė [2][3][4] occurred at Kent State University in the city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by members of the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5]

Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance.

and from the Kent University website itself
http://www.kent.edu/campuses/kent/index.cfm (under CAMPUSES/KENT)
Quote
Visit the Kent Campus
Located in Kent, Ohio, the Kent Campus is ideally situated in northeastern Ohio, amid rolling terrain dotted by spring-fed lakes. Kent, a city of some 28,000, rests on the banks of the Cuyahoga River in Portage County

for disclosure purposes, I took several classes at Kent State, attended graduation through the yrs of several friends from Kent, had sex off-campus in the city of Kent, and drove through town several times on the way to and from Sea World and Geagua Lake Amusement park. However, right now I am glad to be living approx 600 miles away as they have snow, and we don't down here in SC. ROFL :D
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline leatherman

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 09:25:16 PM »
So Roddles, since you're a LTS'er I take it you marched in ACT-UP demos with nasty liberals in the late 80's in the Big C?
I was there! With my first partner, Randy

that's why I thought it was very strange this past year attending rallies in SC. Approx 20 yrs ago I was demonstrating in Cleveland to get access to meds. Now 20 yrs later, I was again demonstrating for access to meds, this time for ADAP funding though.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 09:30:43 PM »
I would imagine that Rod understands that a University is not a city. The shooting and uprising is better known as and named for the campus on which it happened; however it is located in the small city of Kent, Ohio. Splitting hairs like this kind of looks silly and really isn't a matter of IQ but of your political stance vs Rod's political stance. It's all the more silly looking when you consider that Rod was backing up your comment to Ted by using an example of a demonstration in the US, and adding to your comment by illustrating that demonstrations happen even in small American cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent,_Ohio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
and from the Kent University website itself
http://www.kent.edu/campuses/kent/index.cfm (under CAMPUSES/KENT)
for disclosure purposes, I took several classes at Kent State, attended graduation through the yrs of several friends from Kent, had sex off-campus in the city of Kent, and drove through town several times on the way to and from Sea World and Geagua Lake Amusement park. However, right now I am glad to be living approx 600 miles away as they have snow, and we don't down here in SC. ROFL :D

leatherman lecturing someone on splitting hairs = comic gold

::inserts rolling eye emoticon, ten times::
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 09:34:30 PM »
leatherman didn't lecture he's just another person that showed you, you didn't know what you were talking about.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 09:40:12 PM »
leatherman didn't lecture he's just another person that showed you, you didn't know what you were talking about.

You mean that the Kent State riots occurred on a campus?  Sure, Roddles.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 09:47:53 PM »
You mean that the Kent State riots occurred on a campus?  Sure, Roddles.
In the City of Kent the location of Kent State's main campus. 

Offline leatherman

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 09:52:46 PM »
actually I just made a comment, and didn't lecture, about how you seemed to be "splitting hairs" and how I really didn't understand your purpose in that as Rod was actually backing up your comments to Ted.

If there was a lecture in there, it was a lecture about Ohio, the city of Kent, and the Kent state university. I actually thought you might have known this information already being of the age you are and living in the adjoining state; but you seem determined to make an odd distinction about where this demonstration took place. However, the demonstration was on the Kent University campus which is located in the city of Kent, so demonstrations happen even in small cities in America, much less in large cities like the many that have happened in DC, or to bring it around to your other comment, some of the ACT UP demonstrations in NYC (or should I make the distinction of the Wall St. Demonstration by ACT UP and leave the NY city part out of that even though Wall St is in New York city LOL)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline denb45

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 09:53:31 PM »
Shit...LOL  they should all come over here in the US and then they'd find out how much we pay to go the Collage, over here were all born into debt, and even the kids that aren't even born yet are in debt , some of us NEVER get out of it, even if we are lucky enough to find a good job after we graduate with a worthless degree, and some of us DIE in debt ???
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 09:56:46 PM by denb45 »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 09:58:33 PM »
So Roddles, exactly how many of the Kent State University campus protesters were born and raised in the City of Kent, OH?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 10:16:59 PM »
So Roddles, exactly how many of the Kent State University campus protesters were born and raised in the City of Kent, OH?
What does that have anything to do with the City of Kent? You got proven wrong so get over it.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 10:36:55 PM »
What does that have anything to do with the City of Kent? You got proven wrong so get over it.

Just answer it and stop dodging with your usual obfuscation and dissembling.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2010, 10:41:41 PM »
Just answer it and stop dodging with your usual obfuscation and dissembling.
Let me quess, you know the answer like Kent Ohio isn't a city.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2010, 10:43:07 PM »
Let me quess, you know the answer like Kent Ohio isn't a city.

Let me guess, you don't know the answer to my question.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 10:46:52 PM »
Let me guess, you don't know the answer to my question.
Why would I care? Doesn't have anything to do with Kent being a city or not.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 10:54:07 PM »
Why would I care? Doesn't have anything to do with Kent being a city or not.

Is that why I referred to it as a city in this post?  Honestly Roddles, you're not really making much sense in this thread.  You need to learn to frame your arguments in a more concise manner.  Have you considered taking a class, perhaps at Kent State?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2010, 10:58:10 PM »
Is that why I referred to it as a city in this post?  Honestly Roddles, you're not really making much sense in this thread.  You need to learn to frame your arguments in a more concise manner.  Have you considered taking a class, perhaps at Kent State?
Educate me MS P with your undoubting knowledge. How many people going to Kent State's main campus are from Kent?

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2010, 11:26:09 PM »



   When I was a kid my mother worked for a place called Kent Furniture.  It was a building located in Miami of all places.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2010, 11:31:14 PM »


   When I was a kid my mother worked for a place called Kent Furniture.  It was a building located in Miami of all places.
Did she smoke these?   ;)

Offline odyssey

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2010, 11:38:54 PM »
Hey Rapid and Ms P-

Will you two please do the rest of the forum a big favor and take your bickering elsewhere? If you do want to have an argument, please do it via PM or something and let this thread be for people who actually want to discuss and read about the real topic. Please and thank you!

odyssey

P.S. And for God's sake please don't start flaming me just for making a decent request. I have no intention of joining the flame war!
01/09/09- diagnosed HIV+
01/16/09   CD4-425    22%  VL- 32,415
11/09- started Reyetaz/Norvir/Truvada
03/10- stopped R/N/T
10/18/11   CD4- 328   20%  VL- 84,000
10/25/11   CD4- 386   22%
10/28/11- start Truvada/Reyetaz/Norvir
12/30/11  CD4- 523  29%
03/08/12  CD4- 503  31%  VL 57
07/02/12  CD4- 897  43%
08/31/12  CD4- 745  39%
12/27/12  CD4- 884  40%
03/28/13  CD4- 819  39%
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01/16/14  CD4- 743  43%

02/14- switched from R/N/T to Tivicay/Epzicom because of CKD 3 suspected from tenofovir.

03/14- switched back to R/N/T due to severe nausea and inability to eat on T/E.
 
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2010, 11:46:31 PM »
Did she smoke these?   ;)

No she smoked these:



Btw, the police are state police in the city of Kent....... 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2010, 11:52:30 PM »
Quote
Posted by: skeebo1969-- the police are state police in the city of Kent.......
ROFL

Offline denb45

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 09:04:32 AM »
I don't think most people have it in them to protest anything anymore, like 20yrs. ago, if it weren't for the ACT-UP folks, we all wouldn't be sitting here chatting about anything, we'd all be DEAD, and we wouldn't have any of the life saving Meds we take everyday to keep us ALIVE, I fear that this type of thing is a passing
fancy, so, that means, all you younger folks anit gonna have it so good down-the-road, (as you age) if you don't do something about it NOW, you won't have anything left to fight for, it's your future, and you hold all of the cards  ;)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 02:19:18 PM by denb45 »
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Offline Ann

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 09:23:37 AM »
They just voted to raise it from $5,000/yr to $15,000/yr.  For us here, that sounds like a bargain.


You do realise that £15,000 is nearly $23,700, don't you? How much is the average cost of a year's college tuition in the States these days?

Not all of the universities in the UK will be charging £15,000, that's the top fee they're allowed to charge. Even at £5,000 (approximately $7,900) they've put it out of reach for a lot of kids. I'm grateful my daughter already has her degree and I really feel for people who have young families.

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

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HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline leatherman

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2010, 09:36:15 AM »
You do realise that £15,000 is nearly $23,700, don't you? How much is the average cost of a year's college tuition in the States these days?

Even at £5,000 (approximately $7,900) they've put it out of reach for a lot of kids.
"The average sticker price for four-year public colleges and universities this year was relatively low, at $7,020. The average annual cost of attendance at a four-year private college is $26,273; some schools cost as much as $50,000 a year."
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/24/news/economy/public_tuition_soars/
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline denb45

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2010, 09:43:11 AM »
You do realise that £15,000 is nearly $23,700, don't you? How much is the average cost of a year's college tuition in the States these days?

Not all of the universities in the UK will be charging £15,000, that's the top fee they're allowed to charge. Even at £5,000 (approximately $7,900) they've put it out of reach for a lot of kids. I'm grateful my daughter already has her degree and I really feel for people who have young families.



Ann, correct me if I'm wrong here, but, in the UK aren't kids in high-school tested to see how smart they are, and doesn't THAT determine weather they are even smart enough to even go to college? I know over here in the States, you can be a dumb as a box of rocks and still get into a University, as long as you can afford to pay for it, and YES your correct, it now cost almost triple that amount to even get to go to college over here, my Sister had to mortgage her house to pay for here kids, just to even get into a good School, and that didn't even include the cost of everyday living in a Dorm-room, they still had to go find work so they could eat while they were in Collage........
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Theyer

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2010, 11:14:50 AM »
The protests are about a major shift in higher education (16 + )

Our new coalition government responding to the national debt that because off the huge amount off monies WE had to pay to bail out  the banks , has embarked on an all out attack on the UK health / education / un employment sickness benefits / justice system /  military .

This is the Tory right wing pushing through extreme change aided by the Liberal democrats who saw a chance for power after 100 years with none. Already a vast gulf is developing between LD MP,s and their grass root supporters .

At the moment 16 to 18 year old can receive a means tested grant off up to $ 50 app per week to enable them to stay in education gaining the exams to proceed to university education. This will be cut. Some off the angriest protesters are to be found in this group.

All arts based study ( History / English / Applied art etc ) will no longer receive any Tax money and will therefore have to be fully financially supported by the student fees.

Science based degrees will continue to receive  Tax money .

This is off course in keeping with a group off Politicians who know the cost off everything but have abandoned any notion off over all value.

With luck and hard work this is the beginning off many protests against a Government  intent on protecting the rich and making the poor pay for there mistakes.

So our Government is reducing the Quality off life for the majority off us because we must reduce debt asap.  Financing an education system by  students  building up considerable dept. is off course not at all inconsistent in our era off no debt.




"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline carousel

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2010, 12:06:16 PM »
I can't help thinking that what happened to Prince Charles was going to happen, as they headed straight towards where the protesters were.  They could have easily avoided them and chose a route that totally avoided the area.

I'm not surprised how the students reacted and understand just how angry they are.

This Government's glee as they tear away at institutions and values that we hold dear.  Free or near free education should be the right of all.

I do agree that maybe too many people were given the choice to go to University.  But why wouldn't they.  If I was 16 or 18 with no real experience, the prospect of finding a job is very limited.

The Pre-Election promise of the Liberal Democrats against tuition fees and then turn round and support an increase in these fees, is a disgusting and cynical betrayal.  And then they have the audacity to say that the protesters and all students don't understand that the rise is in their best interest.

I could see that if I was protesting and saw Prince Charles and his old biddy driving towards me in their limo, that it would be like a red rag to a bull.

Offline Ann

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2010, 03:43:29 PM »
Ann, correct me if I'm wrong here, but, in the UK aren't kids in high-school tested to see how smart they are, and doesn't THAT determine weather they are even smart enough to even go to college?

Kids between the ages of 14-16 do what is called GCSEs (General Certificate of Secondary Education). In order for the child to progress to Sixth-Form (roughly equivalent to years 11 and 12 in the States) and A-levels (Advanced Level General Certificate of Education), he or she must earn an A*- C grade in at least five or more GCSEs. (each subject has it's own GCSE)

Individual universities decide how many A-levels and at what grade a student must have in order to be accepted. And of course now they also decide how rich the student must be too.

About Charlie and his missus getting attacked, allegedly the route was checked only moments before they set off and it was deemed clear. Either the crowd moved in fast, or whoever gave the all-clear has it in for the pair.

I don't blame the students one little bit for being angry. I'm pretty pissed off about it too. I agree with Carousel that education should be free or very low cost and that it is a right. The way things are going it's only going to be the right of the rich, like so many other rights.

And I hope the Lib-dems rot in hell for their betrayal. I used to like them, but they can eat shit and die now. Their kids aren't going to go without higher education, so they're telling us the rest of us can take a flying leap. It's horrible.
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2010, 04:28:53 PM »
I agree with Ann. I often pinpoint many of the social and economic issues here in the USA with a deteriorating educational system.

We have institutionalized ignorance, and turned it into patriotism. We have made higher education expensive, and placed our population in debt to pay for it - with little to show for the effort besides the ability to memorize for tests and follow rote commands.

We have created a society much like in H.G. Wells' the Time Machine, where a dystopian future consists of a small elite intellectual class and a larger, brutish anti-intellectual constituency.  We are not beyond saving, I don't think. But those of us who "get it" need to act.

Free and accessible education for those who desire it is the cheapest investment in our future.
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Online bocker3

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2010, 04:54:53 PM »
Free and accessible education for those who desire it is the cheapest investment in our future.

Ahh, but there is the rub -- NOTHING IS FREE.  Someone has to pay for it.  Everyone throws around the "free" word -- because it feels like that from the perspective of the person getting it -- but it ain't free.

Should the gov't provide assistance to those who need it -- yes.  Should it all be a no-strings attached gift -- No.  It should be "paid back" with service.

I grew up dirt poor -- welfare, food stamps, etc.....  I found a way to get to college -- ROTC.  They paid my tuition and fees and I served in the Army Reserves for 8 years (including Active Duty time for Desert Storm).  In order to help with the room and board -- I was a Resident Assistant for 2 of my 4 years.  Did I still come out in debt?  Yes I did, however, doing it this way made me appreciate it and work hard while in school.  Too many kids on my floors when I was an RA who were going on Daddy's dime were there to party, not study.  Many flunked out.  That would be a horrible waste of resources.

There are so many resources out there for those that want to go.

No, higher education is NOT a right that should be paid for by the public.  Assistance is and should be made available, but I'd like to see service attached to it -- military or elsewhere.  Hell -- we can't even get health care to all in need -- that is far more important and should be a right.

Of course, I am speaking of the US -- the difference I see with the UK is that they are changing the rules in the middle of the game.  Kids were expecting one thing and now have something else, with no time to plan.  I think what is happening there is awful -- but not for the reasons some others think it.

Just my opinion.

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Offline pozniceguy

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2010, 05:24:30 PM »
I  see this as a recognition of the oldest of political discussions.... How much does it cost??/ ( doesnt matter what the subject is)  and Who is going to pay?   sometimes add the ... How are they going to pay??

I mirror Mikes comments  there are many ways to "earn" an education in the States... just have to review the above questions and make the answers apply to your situation.

protesting and rioting  are not productive ways to sway a government in the short run....... organize and vote for your  answers to the above questions..   
as for the attack on the princes'  Rolls,  that will just get the attackers labeled as terrorists and put on some MI-5 list

Nick
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Offline Ann

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2010, 06:22:29 PM »


protesting and rioting  are not productive ways to sway a government in the short run....... organize and vote for your  answers to the above questions..   


What the hell good does voting do when the party you vote into office go back on their promises and do exactly what they said they wouldn't? Sometimes protest is the only way to get the message across.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

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HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2010, 06:51:13 PM »
I agree with Ann. I often pinpoint many of the social and economic issues here in the USA with a deteriorating educational system.

We have institutionalized ignorance, and turned it into patriotism. We have made higher education expensive, and placed our population in debt to pay for it - with little to show for the effort besides the ability to memorize for tests and follow rote commands.

We have created a society much like in H.G. Wells' the Time Machine, where a dystopian future consists of a small elite intellectual class and a larger, brutish anti-intellectual constituency.  We are not beyond saving, I don't think. But those of us who "get it" need to act.

Free and accessible education for those who desire it is the cheapest investment in our future.

I agree with everything but the swipe at what higher education produces.  Most real colleges and universities do their job very well and produce young adults ready to do great work. Maybe not every graduate but enough from every real school, for sure.  The only problem I see is the cost and access.  There is no rote learning in a real college.  
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Offline Cliff

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2010, 07:35:47 AM »
So a couple of wealthy, elderly folks on their way to the theatre in their expensive car (likely funded by the taxpayers), were a bit shaken by protesters upset at having their livelihood and future opportunities eroded away.  Let them eat cake.

I don't know why the idea of free education must end at 16/17 is still held dear.  Society is much more advanced and the skillsets required are significantly more than they were a hundred years ago.  It's in society's best interests to make higher education as affordable as possible.  A highly skilled, well educated population is in everyone's interests!

Good on the kids for sticking up to the coalition gov.  Nick Clegg and Vince Cable annoy me.  At least you know what you get with the Tories. 

BTW- That photo of Camilla's gaping mouth is priceless.  Those kids must have thought Christmas came early when they saw that car coming down the street.

Offline Cliff

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2010, 07:37:09 AM »
Oh and the police should stop that kettling crap!

Offline pozniceguy

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2010, 12:49:05 AM »
However worthy the thoughts are of giving an "affordable"  ( widely debated) education maybe  there are still the questions of who is paying  and how much ...   every time the governments try to "manufacture"  money  it leads  to financial negative  consequences.        who should be cut from the   "dole"   the NHS?   the "old folks pensions"   the street sweepers?  any of the multitude of persons unable to support themselves??/     
every one has budgets  even socialist governments......  you  cant keep on giving when there is less and less to give......   the "raised tuition"  just transferred the cost to those who most directly benefit from the education  away from the treasury....   besides as the BBC  reported  not all  tuition was raised by 3X  that was the maximum  and apparently only the top tier schools were taking that road..

BBC  also reports of several "investigations"  into the security aspects ( the vehicle was a part of the Royal Livery) and the actual persons doing the damage  ( here comes MI-5)

Nick

not exactly  let them eat cake more like   "let them buy their own bread"
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Offline fearless

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2010, 01:28:43 AM »
You do realise that £15,000 is nearly $23,700, don't you? How much is the average cost of a year's college tuition in the States these days?

Not all of the universities in the UK will be charging £15,000, that's the top fee they're allowed to charge. Even at £5,000 (approximately $7,900) they've put it out of reach for a lot of kids. I'm grateful my daughter already has her degree and I really feel for people who have young families.

They only raised the maximum fee to £9,000 (about $14,000) per annum from the current £3,000.

And, you don't have to pay the fee upfront. Every student is entitled to a loan to cover the fee. The loan is only repaid when a students income reaches a certain level (did I hear £23,000 as the point at which repayment starts?). I'm not convinced such a system puts education out of reach of anyone - study now, pay a contribution toward the costs at a later date when/if you start earning a decent wage.

Sounds like quite a sensible proposal - but it would be, 'cause the poms pinched it from the Aussies who introduced HECS (higher education contribution scheme) some 10 years earlier in 1988.
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2010, 01:43:43 AM »
Sounds like quite a sensible proposal - but it would be, 'cause the poms pinched it from the Aussies who introduced HECS (higher education contribution scheme) some 10 years earlier in 1988.

^^ This.

If the system being introduced in the UK is anything like HECS then these protests are way over the top. HECS allows students to defer their university fees until they're earning over a certain amount. The loan is indexed (ie repayments go up as you earn more) but are interest free.

If you never earn above a certain level, you never have to repay your HECS. Under certain circumstances HECS repayments are tax deductible.

Whilst free tertiary education is a nice idea, it's simply not affordable. Moreover, why should university educated types (who have relatively high earning capacities) not meet at least some of the costs of their high priced degrees?

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Offline Ann

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2010, 04:50:18 AM »
I'll have to check with my daughter (who is more up on this subject than I am) but I don't think it's quite that simple. For one, I don't think the earning threshold for loan repayment is anywhere near that high. And if I've heard correctly, getting a loan is not guaranteed.

For another, the unemployment levels amongst recent university graduates are at very high levels (record levels, I believe) and amongst those who have managed to become gainfully employed, very few are managing to get jobs at degree level or in the field for which they have studied.

It might not be putting university out of reach of the middle or upper class, but it certainly will do that to many in the working class as well as most of the kids trying to escape from the social and from council estates.

Like I said, I'll have to discuss this further with my daughter. If anyone would know, she would. I fully admit that I may be confusing a few things as things are slightly different for a student from the Rock wanting to attend a UK university. We only have a college here, no university, although our college is somehow attached to several universities in the North West. I think my daughter's school year was the last year permitted to pay UK resident rates at UK universities, so this may be where some of my (possible) misinformation comes from, if indeed it is misinformation.
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HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2010, 07:00:26 AM »
OK, a little research indicates that the UK tuition fee system is significantly different from the Australian HECS funding system.

The amount that UK universities can charge students per year has been raised and repayments are charged interest. There is an income threshold below which graduates do not have to pay back their loans, but access to loans are (apparently) skewed towards middle and upper class students.

(link)

Sucks to be a Pom, I guess.

MtD

Offline fearless

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2010, 07:24:09 PM »
For another, the unemployment levels amongst recent university graduates are at very high levels (record levels, I believe) and amongst those who have managed to become gainfully employed, very few are managing to get jobs at degree level or in the field for which they have studied.

psst. they can always come here and dig up coal for the indian's and chinese and earn a squillion

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 07:45:11 PM by fearless »
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2010, 07:31:08 PM »
psst. they can always come here and dig up coal for the indian's and chinese and earn a squillion

Not in NSW they can't. Coal mining's a total closed shop.  CFMEU would shit the bed at the mere suggestion of such a thing. You've basically gotta be born in a NSW coal mine to get a job in one.

Of course things are probably different in Western Australia. No laws at all over there, unless you're an aborigine of course.

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Offline fearless

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Re: British Youth Furious Over Ed Increase--Attack on Prince Charles
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2010, 07:46:19 PM »
Gotta love the CFMEU
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