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Author Topic: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...  (Read 4002 times)

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Offline doggyboy

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My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« on: December 09, 2010, 01:21:38 AM »


Hi,

I am a 25 year old gay male.  I've had only one person with whom I've engaged in sexual contact, ever.  I am a very shy person, and for all intents and purposes, I may as well be asexual.  With that being said:

My friend and I had mutual oral sex (absolutely nothing else) 8 or 9 times between the summer of 2008 and the summer of 2010.  At the very end of '08, I started to get a cold that came and went repeatedly until April '09.  I was a little concerned, since we had given each other oral sex once in December '08.  I told myself the symptoms were too soon to show up, and so I shrugged it off soon after, although it seemed to last forever and I believe the lymph nodes in my neck were swollen, as well as the back of my tongue.  Still, it didn't bother me much.  In 2009, the last time I gave him oral was also in December (we would do this once every few months), and I did not do this with him again until August 1st, 2010.  That night, I noticed that he kept shivering, as if he had a cold, the flu, or a fever.  I didn't think too much about it, except I decided to look up shivering as a symptom for a number of problems, and discovered that HIV infection was one of them.  Thinking irrationally about the previous year when I had that nagging cold, I spiralled out of control and just knew I'd been infected by him then, as the first few times we did oral, I drank a lot of alcohol, brushed my teeth, and had used mouthwash beforehand.

My week was a nightmare, since it was clear to me that I was one of the few who'd been infected with HIV from oral sex.  I knew I couldn't do anything about the oral session we'd had on that Monday (Aug. 1st), but I forced myself to get tested for all of the previous times I'd been with him, the last of which had been eight months previous.  I was tested NEGATIVE.

Although I was initially thrilled and relieved, I started thinking about that very last time we'd had oral, and what if he'd been infected recently?  I have read that an individual is *MUCH more highly infectious* during the window period.  So, I've let it fester and bother me every day these last four months.

I am waiting to be tested at the 6 month mark because I'm very obsessive-compulsive and agonize over statistics, but I finally got my friend to get tested (via the OraQuick oral swab) on December 1st.  He tested negative.  Woo-hoo, right?  I was thinking I could put everything behind me and not get tested again myself, since he's the ONLY person I've ever been with.  Well, I started Googling statistics about OraQuick and managed to bug myself over that, as well, although visiting this site had helped tremendously, until...

I had previously assumed my friend had not had any sexual encounters in the summer of 2010 (he said his booty calls were all out of town!), and also that he'd always used condoms.  Well... last night, he admitted that he went to a glory hole in the summer, and had unprotected oral/anal (he did not say if the anal was receptive or insertive, but my mind is flying).  I'm back to being totally upside down again: could it be possible that the OraQuick test was wrong, even though it's clearly been four months since our last encounter, and possibly a little longer than that since he'd visited the glory hole?  Do I need to go get myself tested again, even though he's negative and, again, I haven't been with anyone else?  Is it possible he was in the early stages of seroconversion when I sucked him, and he was highly infectious?  I have read that this makes transmission of the virus much more likely to a partner.

I know that those in the know on this forum maintain that insertive oral is practically harmless for possible HIV transmission, but I keep reading that the chances are either 1 in 10,000, or 1 in 1,000, depending on where I've read, and if a person is in the early stages of seroconversion, possibly MUCH higher (I've even read 1 in 100, and even 1 in 5, which I'm not sure if I believe, but it's horribly unsettling nonetheless).  I've also read a study that suggests alcohol is damaging to the inner lining of the mouth, making oral HIV transmission much more easy - and that was 4% diluted alcohol, whereas I drank 5-6 shots of 40% abv hard liquor about two hours before our oral sex encounter in August!!  There wouldn't have been any strong alcohol left in my mouth to kill the potential virus, and my mouth must've been totally weakened.  The doctors at Medhelp also don't sound as optimistic about the non-threatening potentiality of HIV via oral transmission as this forum does, nor do they seem to be as concrete about OraQuick being definitive at 3 months.

What are the odds that his test was wrong at more than 17 weeks?  He isn't on any medications that I know of, except for schizophrenia, and he doesn't usually take them (he is so stable that no one can believe he's schizophrenic; even his doctor would not have been able to tell without prior medical history), so I can't think of anything interfering with the results.  What if the test was performed incorrectly, though?  It was done by a professional who works at an outreach program and tests many, many people, so it doesn't seme likely, but who knows?  Am I just worrying over nothing?  Should I just get on with my life and wait for my brain which has been hard-wired to worry over this to get back to normal?  I recognize that I'm an OCD, anxious, somewhat depressed person, but I've never had anything like this to worry about in my life and I just want it to stop so I can get my life back.

Thanks,
Worried Doggy Boy

Offline doggyboy

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 01:55:10 AM »
Oop, I hope I'm not confusing terms (insertive oral vs. receptive oral).  I'm not concerned about him sucking on me in the slightest, for what it's worth.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 01:59:16 AM »
From what you wrote, you have been tested reliably negative - over, I can assure you, a low - to - theoretical possibility for transmission.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline doggyboy

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 03:10:21 AM »
Thanks.  I just feel as though I should get tested for the August experience, even though he tested negative, but due to my obsessiveness over statistics and the whole 6 month thing, I would not be satisfied unless I waited until February.  Again, I have not been with anyone else, but I still feel terrible mentally, especially after the revelation of his unprotected glory hole experience.  I had been hinging on his original claim that he'd not had any all summer, and that was basically blown to pieces.  I understand a lot of it's in my head - what are the odds he'd get infected shortly before letting me blow him, and that I'd actually contract the virus, and that he'd test negative? - but I absolutely hate any sort of what if.  (For what it's worth, back in September, he spoke as though he'd never been to a glory hole and wanted me to go with him sometime because he was too scared, and now he says he first went back in '08 or '09.  What gives?  Either he lied about his sexcapades or lied about not going, and it is more likely to be the latter.  No one has to respond to this particular peculiarity; it's just an anecdote...)

Offline RapidRod

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 05:55:34 AM »
You never had a risk of contracting HIV. Saliva contains over a dozen different enzymes and proteins that inhibit HIV transmission.

Offline doggyboy

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 06:15:13 AM »
You never had a risk of contracting HIV. Saliva contains over a dozen different enzymes and proteins that inhibit HIV transmission.

Not even if he had theoretically just become infected and was more infectious (to pardon the redundancy) than he would be later?  Thanks, Rod, I've been admiring your posts and diligence as I've read the board.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 06:40:32 AM »
Not even if he had theoretically just become infected and was more infectious (to pardon the redundancy) than he would be later?  Thanks, Rod, I've been admiring your posts and diligence as I've read the board.

JK has given you the goods on this. Your "risk" was theoretical at best. You have reliably tested negative for HIV.

You will not be allowed to post endlessly questioning a confirmed negative result.

Please take the time to read our Welcome Thread and familiarise yourself with the posting guidelines.

MtD

Offline Ann

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 06:49:31 AM »
Dog,

It looks to me like you aren't going to rest until you test over your August incident. You do not have to wait for six months. The window period has been three months for years now. Go test and collect your negative result and get it the hell over with already.

And yes, you are confusing the terms. Insertive oral is where you insert your penis into another's mouth and get sucked. Receptive oral is where you receive a penis into your mouth and do the sucking.

I fully expect you to test negative and so should you. You only need to test for peace of mind as you never had a real risk.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline doggyboy

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2010, 01:20:18 PM »
Thanks for the reply, Ann.  As my partner has already tested, it is unnecessary for me to go in, yes?  I realize the unlikelihood that he'd get a false negative at 17+ weeks, and after he got tested, I was hoping I wouldn't have the urge to go, and I really don't want to.

Offline Ann

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2010, 01:25:28 PM »
dog,

You don't need to test over this NO RISK incident even if he tested poz. No risk is no risk, regardless of the person's hiv status.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline doggyboy

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2010, 03:40:39 AM »
Is it really safe to say that receptive oral is no risk?  I don't want to open a can of worms, but what if the person receiving the BJ had an incredibly high viral load?  Could the defenses of the saliva be overwhelmed, scientifically speaking? I don't see how this situation could have been factored into the studies.  I see that several positive forum members (madbrain and mecch) believe or were known to have sucked a guy with a very high VL.  Madbrain also says his seroconversion was very late, which has me freaked out all over again.  ???

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2010, 04:09:31 AM »
Could the defenses of saliva be overwhelmed? Theoretically, sure. But have they ever been documented to have done so? No.

So unless you are certain you are about to make medical history, you can assume that you are safe. I am sorry you have trawled the forums to find fuel for your fear. The rules for the Other Side of this forum (which, after all, was intended for HIV positive folks) has different guidelines than this one. On the other side, we rarely call out another member as to his/her stated method of transmission. For some members, it is imperative that we believe that they "did nothing wrong" and yet got infected. They say this for many reasons.

Some people, thanks to drug and/or alcohol use, cannot remember what they have done or not done. They latch onto the safest and most preservative of their reputation (though that really does not matter on these forums) and cling to it, despite science and their own anecdote to the contrary.

Would you have me to to the throat of everyone who makes an improbable claim on the Positive side of the forums? Granted, i do it more than most people, but that's the science-nerd masochist in me. But when someone is new, and hurting, and not willing or able to come to terms with his or her behavior, does it do any good for the likes of me - or anyone here - to "correct" them when they are at their absolute worst?

True, when someone goes on a transmission theory rampage, i am rolling up my sleeves and hoping for the best. Usually the thread gets locked down and/or deleted, and this side of the site shows zero change.

Because this side of the site, a side we have set aside specifically for the worried well, is not support-based. It is fact-based. Where on the Other Side we hand hold and support persons who, months or years later, MIGHT come to terms with the real cause of their infection, on this side of the site we deal strictly in facts. It makes this side of the site a little colder, but more scientifically accurate.

After all, you are not HIV positive. You do not require the hand-holding and care that newly infected persons seem to need.

I am sorry that reading the other side of this site has freaked you out. Your chances of becoming positive due to the activity you describe are, if accurate, groundbreaking in HIV transmission theory. And after thirty odd years of that science, I would be shocked if an improbably means of transmission proved viable.

How you deal with my honesty is up to you. I have spent much of the last twenty years working with HIV prevention, specializing in HIV transmission theory. The Romero and Page-Shafer studies were some of the most instructive and well put-together studies I have ever read on the topic, overcoming the patient bias and the inherent flaw in patient report after seroconversion.

Until more compelling evidence falls into my lap, I am staying firmly the course. And will, as you will have noted by the threads you read, take my lumps as they come. I have also stayed pretty well clear of the Recently Infected forums, as I do not want to muddy psychologically tender waters with the cold wash of fact, however healing I personally find that.

You can post all you want. I do not suspect our answers will change.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2010, 08:43:03 AM »
Doggy, you don't seem to be willing to let this issue rest despite all the detailed responses you have received assuring you that you were not at risk. So instead of just wringing your hands and coming back with more what ifs that can get you a Time Out here for returning over a non-risk, I agree with Ann that you ought to get tested and collect the inevitable negative result. Hopefully that will allow you to move on.

Is living with the anxiety and doubts really better than just going and getting the test done? I can tell you that you are not going to be allowed to return here much longer with your fears and anxieties when there is a very simple solution to the matter: get tested (and collect the negative result we all expect).   
Andy Velez

Offline doggyboy

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2010, 05:37:10 PM »
Thanks, Andy.  I will try to make an appointment after Christmas (the thought of a positive or a false-positive and waiting for confirmatory/conclusive results during the holidays is not something I want to experience).

I don't know why I continue to harp on it in my mind, when my partner received negative results 4 months after I gave him a BJ and swallowed.  Also, I asked him to clarify his glory hole experience in a roundabout way, and he said he only performed oral.  Of course, he could be lying, but it could also just be my own paranoia.  He said it happened in the summer, so it could have been anywhere from 4 (guaranteed) to 6 months before he tested.  It is like my mind is wired to worry about it, and I obsessively read threads and posts to ease my mind, only to find messages that send me spiraling again.  I am sorry to be a bother.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2010, 07:44:47 PM »
Thanks, Andy.  I will try to make an appointment after Christmas (the thought of a positive or a false-positive and waiting for confirmatory/conclusive results during the holidays is not something I want to experience).

I don't know why I continue to harp on it in my mind, when my partner received negative results 4 months after I gave him a BJ and swallowed.  Also, I asked him to clarify his glory hole experience in a roundabout way, and he said he only performed oral.  Of course, he could be lying, but it could also just be my own paranoia.  He said it happened in the summer, so it could have been anywhere from 4 (guaranteed) to 6 months before he tested.  It is like my mind is wired to worry about it, and I obsessively read threads and posts to ease my mind, only to find messages that send me spiraling again.  I am sorry to be a bother.

Here's a thought: stop reading threads.

If you are having trouble coping with anxiety and the like, you should see a qualified mental health professional. We are not able to provide you with that sort of support.

If you find you can't stop reading threads here I'm sure a Moderator will arrange a 28 day temporary ban to assist you in that regard.

MtD

Offline doggyboy

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 01:37:53 AM »
I broke down and went to the health department for a test.  They took blood for the regular test (and gonorrhea), but also took some of the blood and used it on a Uni-Gold 10 minute rapid test, which was NEGATIVE.  Woo-hoo, right?  Nope, not for me.  Being the glutton for misery I am, I came home and read this study, which suggests that the Uni-Gold is the worst of the rapid tests when compared with the benchmark WB tests: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/2/257.full

This table in particular: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/2/257/T3.expansion.html

The study found zero false-negatives among those in the study taking ART and zero among those positive who were not on medication, so why is the comparison with the WB tests so terrible alongside every other FDA-approved rapid test?  I am very confused.  Of course, this is the latest study so I can't find any other information about it!  Go figure...

I am considering seeing a therapist.  I just want my life back...

Waiting for the non-rapid test results...
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 03:20:10 AM by doggyboy »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 03:26:34 AM »
I broke down and went to the health department for a test.  They took blood for the regular test (and gonorrhea), but also took some of the blood and used it on a Uni-Gold 10 minute rapid test, which was NEGATIVE.  Woo-hoo, right?  Nope, not for me.  Being the glutton for misery I am, I came home and read this study, which suggests that the Uni-Gold is the worst of the rapid tests when compared with the benchmark WB tests: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/2/257.full

This table in particular: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/2/257/T3.expansion.html

The study found zero false-negatives among those in the study taking ART and zero among those positive who were not on medication, so why is the comparison with the WB tests so terrible alongside every other FDA-approved rapid test?  I am very confused.  Of course, this is the latest study so I can't find any other information about it!  Go figure...

I am considering seeing a therapist.  I just want my life back...

Waiting for the non-rapid test results...

Whatever. ::)

Your Uni-Gold test result is reliable because you were not at risk of contracting HIV in the first place.

It is more than apparent that we are not able to assist you with your various issues. I am referring your latest post to the moderators for review.

MtD

Offline Ann

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 05:11:06 AM »
Dog,

You do not have hiv. You are conclusively hiv negative.

If you read the Welcome Thread before posting like you're supposed to, you will have read the following posting guideline:

Quote

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.


Please consider yourself warned!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline doggyboy

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2011, 01:28:22 PM »
My update:

My OCD wouldn't let me forget about this, so I went in today (7 months and about 8 days post low-risk encounter) and did an OraQuick mouth swab test.  Of course it was negative.

This makes five tests (two visits with both rapid tests and blood draws), total, plus my partner's negative OraQuick at 4 months past our encounter.  I hope I can put this behind me now.  My brain seems to be hard-wired to worry about it, and it will take a lot of work to break myself of the seemingly circular worry.  I will not post here again unless I have a real exposure, and I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon.

Thanks, guys.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: My possibly convoluted story (insertive oral)...
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2011, 03:49:27 PM »
Do yourself a big favor and get some professional help with the emotional aspects of this thoroughly discredited fear about HIV risk.

We cannot do anything further for you in this setting about that.

Andy Velez

 


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