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Author Topic: Milk Thistle benefits?  (Read 17097 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,950
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2011, 02:57:51 PM »
The issue of paranoia is the supposed 'demon' of one kind of treatment that is, at this very moment and for centuries *before* conventional drugs ever existed, being used to successfully maintain health and cure ill-health in the most populous country on this planet.
It is simply 3rd grade mentality to adopt a rather boorish closed mind. You are welcome to it but don't expect me or many others to join in.
So, we were much better off before conventional medicine - backed by reputable research - became the accepted norm?  We had much higher life expectancies when alternative medicine, home remedies, untested/unresearched medicine and snake oil was the norm?  Citations please?

As far as mentality goes - I won't justify that with a direct response, other than to say that my IQ (which has been tested with validity), degree and credentials put me at far greater than a third grade mentality.  As far as having a closed mind - I believe that minds are like parachutes and function only when open - however, that does not mean that I blindly accept what others say, especially when it can place my health in jeopardy.

As far as you joining in - didn't ever expect you to - that is your choice.
As far as many others joining in, I would suggest that you go back and read the responses your posts have received on this thread and others where you have posted - doesn't seem like too many are climbing all over each other to join you in your still unsupported claims and statements.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,921
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2011, 03:02:52 PM »


The issue of paranoia is the supposed 'demon' of one kind of treatment that is, at this very moment and for centuries *before* conventional drugs ever existed, being used to successfully maintain health and cure ill-health in the most populous country on this planet.
It is simply 3rd grade mentality to adopt a rather boorish closed mind. You are welcome to it but don't expect me or many others to join in.

Honey I don't care and of course you're kinda being successful in upsetting the villagers, but you really are dense.

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,251
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2011, 03:21:38 PM »
Silly threats and paranoia.
This is the *internet*, a very very tiny part of it, and a forum with extremely few frequent posters, so clearly not the place where any real danger exists to anyone.
You sound more like Mubarak when he warned millions on the streets of the 'external dangers from people telling you lies', and Gadafy saying exactly the same while his army mowed them down on the streets.

Get a grip.


No, I suggest that perhaps you need to get a grip.  You are participating on a SUPPORT FORUM serving an audience with a life-threatening disease.  "Real danger exists" if people are permitting to post unsubstaniated claims regarding behavior and treatments.

Further, you should understand that the "extremely few frequent posters" here care greatly about the integrity of the information it provides.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Matt39

  • Member
  • Posts: 179
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2011, 03:25:32 PM »

No, I suggest that perhaps you need to get a grip.  You are participating on a SUPPORT FORUM serving an audience with a life-threatening disease.  "Real danger exists" if people are permitting to post unsubstaniated claims regarding behavior and treatments.

Further, you should understand that the "extremely few frequent posters" here care greatly about the integrity of the information it provides.

1. This is a discussion forum, it is not a medical forum moderated or answered by qualified physicians
2. It's the internet and open to all
3. People are entitled to discuss any issue from various viewpoints

Do you not watch the news???

People are dying in order to obtain (let alone protect) simple freedom of expression.

Get a grip and a life.

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,251
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2011, 03:31:52 PM »
1. This is a discussion forum, it is not a medical forum moderated or answered by qualified physicians
2. It's the internet and open to all
3. People are entitled to discuss any issue from various viewpoints

Do you not watch the news???

People are dying in order to obtain (let alone protect) simple freedom of expression.

Get a grip and a life.


Ah, yes.  And with that, I've learned all about you that I need to know.

I suppose I'll go ahead and say, "it's been memorable" or something to that effect.

I don't anticipate you being around here for very long at all.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,950
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2011, 03:34:07 PM »
1. This is a discussion forum, it is not a medical forum moderated or answered by qualified physicians
2. It's the internet and open to all
3. People are entitled to discuss any issue from various viewpoints

Do you not watch the news???

People are dying in order to obtain (let alone protect) simple freedom of expression.

Get a grip and a life.
Yes this is a discussion forum; however, one of the things that gives this forum credibility is that unsubstantiated claims and/or claims that might cause harm to others are questioned by members (and many times by moderators) to protect members from "treatments" that may be harmful.  While the Internet is open to all, this site is moderated - by skilled, experienced moderators - and they do have the option of giving warnings, time outs and even banning members -- based on the situation.

While people are entitled to discuss their viewpoints - when treatment advice or suggestions are given (such as supporting alternative or complementary medicines) it is usually protocol to provide reputable citations - I believe this is on one of the welcome threads.  

Even in countries that recognize freedom of speech, one can still not yell "fire" in a crowded theater.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline newt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,868
  • the one and original newt
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2011, 03:37:29 PM »
Quote
This is the *internet*, a very very tiny part of it, and a forum with extremely few frequent posters

It is the only really shit-hot active HIV forum in the world. Forums are generally minority events regardless. But don't make them unimportant. Plus some shit-hot people, including me (hehe), are here. We have saved lives, and improved lives, and alleviated extreme anxiety (<< testimonials available). That's enough for me.

People have a life outside HIV and there's a limit to how often they want to post/engage. And if you're right, don't matter if it's a single answer to a question or a thread of 500 posts.

Sorry to be curmudgeonly, but, in short, ARVs saved me life, this forum saved me sanity and milk thistle etc didn't.

On a technical note, athough there is a theoretical interaction between milk thistle and liver pathways used by ARVs, in life no notable interactions are seen (<< Ref: http://www.hiv-druginteractions.org, go check)

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,667
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2011, 03:42:35 PM »
1. This is a discussion forum, it is not a medical forum moderated or answered by qualified physicians
2. It's the internet and open to all
3. People are entitled to discuss any issue from various viewpoints

Do you not watch the news???

People are dying in order to obtain (let alone protect) simple freedom of expression.

Get a grip and a life.

  If this was a butterfly forum milk thistle would be a great topic of discussion, on a HIV forum not so much.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,921
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2011, 03:44:10 PM »
1. This is a discussion forum, it is not a medical forum moderated or answered by qualified physicians
2. It's the internet and open to all
3. People are entitled to discuss any issue from various viewpoints

Do you not watch the news???

People are dying in order to obtain (let alone protect) simple freedom of expression.

Get a grip and a life.

Wrong again Mary. People can and do get banned from this site, but you already knew that. People can be booted for their "freedom of expression" if they advocate denialism. Oh and you and your unique voice ain't allowed in the women's forum, LTS or Am I Infected. Wander into Am I with your wisdom and see what happens.


Offline Matt39

  • Member
  • Posts: 179
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2011, 04:01:31 PM »
 If this was a butterfly forum milk thistle would be a great topic of discussion, on a HIV forum not so much.

This thread existed in full flow before I posted.
That makes what you said slightly incorrect.

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,667
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2011, 04:04:43 PM »
That makes what you said slightly incorrect.

Not really, milk thistle is talked about extensively in butterfly forums around the internet.  Did you know the Monarch Butterfly can live up to 9 months? 

That's with or without milk thistle mind you.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Matt39

  • Member
  • Posts: 179
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2011, 04:05:19 PM »
Wrong again Mary. People can and do get banned from this site, but you already knew that. People can be booted for their "freedom of expression" if they advocate denialism. Oh and you and your unique voice ain't allowed in the women's forum, LTS or Am I Infected. Wander into Am I with your wisdom and see what happens.



I have never been impressed with the killer 'herd mentality' and when it involves the same half dozen voices again and again, even less so.
That it seeks to question the right of anyone to participate for the flimsiest of non-reasons it says more about *you*.
Frankly, I couldn't give a toss if I was banned from this forum since it would just be a reflection on 'control' and 'power' in the hands of some pretty unseemly voices.

Online Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 23,569
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2011, 04:09:46 PM »
I have never been impressed with the killer 'herd mentality'

And that's a damn good thing sweets because there's not a single person yet that's agreed with anything you've stated.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,251
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2011, 04:10:21 PM »
I have never been impressed with the killer 'herd mentality' and when it involves the same half dozen voices again and again, even less so.
That it seeks to question the right of anyone to participate for the flimsiest of non-reasons it says more about *you*.
Frankly, I couldn't give a toss if I was banned from this forum since it would just be a reflection on 'control' and 'power' in the hands of some pretty unseemly voices.

That's a good thing then - because I'm gratified to inform you that I've already hit the report button on you.  You see...we not only care about the integrity of information here, we care about each other.  I noticed in another thread here that you've already taken swipes at people like aztecan and Alanbama.  Stuff like that ain't gonna stand.

And speaking of being unimpressed...it's occured to me that you're probably feeling a bit delighted with yourself, thinking you've gotten all of us paying attention to you and in some fizz.  Well...not really.  You haven't raised my blood pressure or anything exciting like that.  I'm just sitting here in the bed with my laptop with a cup of excellent coffee.  We've had loads of people of your stripe, but most of them were more interesting about it.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,921
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2011, 04:11:33 PM »

Frankly, I couldn't give a toss if I was banned from this forum

Poodle, I couldn't agree more.


Offline Matt39

  • Member
  • Posts: 179
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2011, 04:21:52 PM »
Well, there is great information in this entire thread for anyone reading to come to their own considered personal opinion.

And there has been great entertainment too from the 'Trollettes'!

What more could we want? :)

Online Miss Philicia

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  • Posts: 23,569
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2011, 04:40:37 PM »
the 'Trollettes'!

Please discuss psychological projection with your shrink this week.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Andy Velez

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 23,860
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2011, 04:47:59 PM »
Matt, you're a new member here and in a very short time you have become embroiled in a number of variously acrimonious exchanges. From my reading they do not seem to lead to any progressive communication.

So I am suggesting that you step back a little and reconsider your approach to conversations here in the forums. There is a wealth of knowledge, support and experience to be shared here.

I can tell you from long experience here that when I see a new member getting involved in these kinds of embroilments early on, it often augurs a short lifespan as a member here.

So again, I urge you to ease up a bit and go with less testosteronics and more openness to listening to others. Humility is a good thing to have. Sometmies people confuse it with humiliation.

Just saying...



« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 04:52:17 PM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline leatherman

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  • Google and HIV meds are Your Friends
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2011, 04:55:38 PM »
Hey Matt, I asked you something earlier in this thread (when were you dx'ed and what meds have you taken?), but maybe I needed to ask this basic question first. Why did you join this site and begin particpating? Did you not read any threads prior? I ask because you seem to have come in with no introduction of yourself, your experiences, or your knowledge to a site that's been established for many years with plenty of knowledgeable, experienced people who have pretty much already discussed nearly everything once :D; and once here you began stating information that some of us have taken issue with. Rather than back your point of view up with verifible links and credentials, you've just gone off into sparring matches with several members.

Don't misunderstand, I happen to think that often new members are ganged up on and given a hard time; but your comments that HAART hasn't saved lives sounds so much like a denialist that it's no wonder so many people here are attacking your posts. (I'll never understand how prolonging someone's life and giving them back reasonable health after having an AIDS diagnosis doesn't make HAART life-saving. I'm just going to always think you're arguing with the wrong semantics on that issue ;) )

So why are you here? What did you expect to get or give from joining this site? (It's obvious from your posting history so far that you intended to start off by only giving "information") Who are you and what are your credentials (ie experiences) to show that you know what you're talking about? I'm sure if we understood more about you, we might all find that we have more in common than you've led us to believe with your rocky start around here.

Perhaps you really need to start up an introduction thread about yourself, so you're not just a faceless new member with no past and no experience with which to back up your pronoucements. Thanks for any info you are willing to supply to help us get to know you better.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,921
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2011, 06:43:50 PM »
Dude you're freakin' me out with that Weekend at Bernies pic.

Offline Matt39

  • Member
  • Posts: 179
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2011, 06:50:59 PM »
step back a little and reconsider your approach to conversations here in the forums.....when I see a new member getting involved in these kinds of embroilments early on, it often augurs a short lifespan as a member here.

.... ease up a bit and go with less testosteronics and more openness to listening to others.
Just saying...


I have posted with respect and courtesy, and significant diplomacy. Particularly in response to some quite obvious goading unconnected with the subject of the thread.

A number of your established members have posted simple, short and sharp personal attacks that frankly would disgrace anyone.

So I suggest you revisit my posts and some of the responses and perhaps try to look at the content, rather than the mere fact that disagreements have ensued.

I firmly believe that with just a little more objectivity you will come to a different conclusion.

If not, then that is your remunerated prerogative, and so be it but I don't have the moral flexibility to change my opinions and come on side with the view of the loudest and crudest.

Offline Matt39

  • Member
  • Posts: 179
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2011, 07:03:24 PM »
Rather than back your point of view up with verifible links and credentials, you've just gone off into sparring matches with several members.

That is factually incorrect.

I have talked about herbal remedies I personally have used in conjunction with ARVs. The forum rules indicate that is accepted so I suggest you re-read them. In any case, I have provided links to Hibiscus, and others provided links to Silymarin.

It is not me that has engaged or initiated 'sparring', so that is either down to your selective reading or some other fault.


Don't misunderstand, I happen to think that often new members are ganged up on and given a hard time;

That is a pretty big understatement.

Anyone even moderately confident in their personal views and choices would not launch the kind of attacks that 3 or 4 people here have.
That is their, quite serious and unattractive, problem. Not mine and I certainly have no intention of taking ownership of it.

Who are you and what are your credentials (ie experiences) to show that you know what you're talking about?

I suggest then you read several posts where I give a virtual history of my experiences relating to HIV/AIDS going back the best part of 30 years. I have actually taken the trouble to read about several posting members here so that I don't make assumptions, or ask for information they have already given.

new member with no past and no experience with which to back up your pronoucements.

This is not the Stasi with a bunker full of 'files' as far as I know and as I said I have given a wealth of information indicating my personal experience.

I have made no 'pronouncements' in the common understanding and meaning of that term. If yours is different then please define it for me.

Rather, I have given observation and information which I expect people to take or leave, or (in a respectful way, which many have) comment on. I don't feel I can do anything differently.

Best wishes

Matt

Offline Matt39

  • Member
  • Posts: 179
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2011, 07:07:50 PM »
So, we were much better off before conventional medicine - backed by reputable research - became the accepted norm?  We had much higher life expectancies when alternative medicine, home remedies, untested/unresearched medicine and snake oil was the norm?

I never suggested anything of the sort. I said that one form had worked well for centuries and is still the norm in the most populous country on earth - it actually operates alongside conventional western medicine.
I did *not* say it was better. That is seriously disingenuous of you - stating an untruth and then requiring evidence of it.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 07:09:35 PM by Matt39 »

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,251
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2011, 07:25:18 PM »
I have posted with respect and courtesy, and significant diplomacy. Particularly in response to some quite obvious goading unconnected with the subject of the thread.

A number of your established members have posted simple, short and sharp personal attacks that frankly would disgrace anyone.

So I suggest you revisit my posts and some of the responses and perhaps try to look at the content, rather than the mere fact that disagreements have ensued.

I firmly believe that with just a little more objectivity you will come to a different conclusion.

If not, then that is your remunerated prerogative, and so be it but I don't have the moral flexibility to change my opinions and come on side with the view of the loudest and crudest.


Yes, dear...you've just been a portrait of social grace.   ::)


AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline leatherman

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  • Google and HIV meds are Your Friends
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2011, 07:50:15 PM »
That is a pretty big understatement.
well, we do agree on one thing. LOL

I suggest then you read several posts where I give a virtual history of my experiences relating to HIV/AIDS going back the best part of 30 years. I have actually taken the trouble to read about several posting members here so that I don't make assumptions, or ask for information they have already given.
you must be mistaking this site for somewhere else that you are also posting

mmm well I was there and living it, brother.
I was sitting in the office of Dr Joseph Sonnabend (know him, know the history???) in NYC in 1982 with my then partner, when you had barely got out of your teens
from " A positive, positive thread"
Quote
I am 53 and I consider myself fortunate not to have had to face being poz personally until 7 years ago.
Quote
Of course, and I am sure it is (or ought to be) appreciated that among some people new to this forum and indeed comparatively new to being poz (seven years is nothing I'm sure),
(btw, the snarky line "barely got out of your teens" sure reads like sparring with another member. LOL)


so you're 53 and been poz for 7 yrs. That's all you've told us about yourself. The info about your partner doesn't really say much cause I would never assume that just because you were in a certain doctor's office that that made either you or your partner HIV positive. While you did name-drop a few other times, that doesn't say much about you or your life. (there are plenty here who name-drop already and I don't believe a lot of those unverifiable tall-tales either. LOL)

Your comments do seem to be intriguing to say the least. I have to wonder how knowledgeable about HIV you really were in 1982 and yet still ended up testing poz all these years later. Not to mention that earlier you questioned someone else's time line, using the discovery date for HIV as 27 years ago, yet you seem to be implying here that your knowledge about HIV (from being in an office with Sonnabend) dates back 29 to 30 years. It seems your math has an issue too.
However, the maths simply don't compute.

I don't know whether that is simply a typographic error on your part (did you really mean 22 years?) but what we now know as 'HIV' wasn't even discovered until 27 years ago at most, and testing was not generally available until barely 25 years ago, if that.

Please point me to any other posts where you have spoken about your experiences with HIV (like your meds, your counts, your health care work, your education on the subject, your activism or volunteerism, or you social service work), because I'm seeing no "virtual history" in the limited amount that you have posted.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Matt39

  • Member
  • Posts: 179
Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2011, 08:24:21 PM »
A positive, positive thread"(btw, the snarky line "barely got out of your teens" sure reads like sparring with another member. LOL)

Maybe you should have quoted what I was replying to. Context is everything.

I don't believe a lot of those unverifiable tall-tales either. LOL)

Same goes for anything anyone here writes. What makes you think anyone can believe what anyone posts here?? You think the post count proves something?
If you don't believe something, so be it. Why would I care, since I have no control over it?

Your comments do seem to be intriguing to say the least. I have to wonder how ........

As far as I know, none of us knew about 'HIV' in 1982. It wasn't until Gallo published papers on what Montagnier found that we heard about it.
Sonnabend, however, was talking about a sexual transmissible agent *before* anyone else. He was, with two patients, the first to develop safer sex messages and he also talked about co-factors.

Anyway, whether you believe me or I believe you is just the way of life.

You can interrogate someone as much as you like - damn you could get a good job doing it! lol - but whether they feel obliged to play ball in your game is another thing altogether.

But I'm not losing any sleep over it, which reminds me time to hit the sack.

Good night and good luck! :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 08:25:59 PM by Matt39 »

Offline edfu

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2011, 12:37:56 AM »
As far as I know, none of us knew about 'HIV' in 1982. It wasn't until Gallo published papers on what Montagnier found that we heard about it.
Sonnabend, however, was talking about a sexual transmissible agent *before* anyone else. He was, with two patients, the first to develop safer sex messages and he also talked about co-factors.

You are correct:  None of us knew about HIV itself in 1982, but some of us, including Joe Sonnabend, believed in 1982 that there was a sexual transmissible agent.  I, too, knew Sonnabend and lived several blocks from his office in NYC's Greenwich Village.  I also knew Michael Callen and Richard Berkowitz, his two patients who developed the safer-sex paradigm. You aren't the only one who was around then and is still here.    

In the winter/spring of 1981-1982 I was attempting to edit for GMHC what would become the first publication on GRID (Gay-Related Immune Deficency).  You remember GRID. It was to be released for Gay Pride in June 1982.  Through a process of logical deduction, based on what was happening to all my friends, an intuitive leap, based on what I knew my friends and I were doing or not doing sexually, and on medical hypothesis, based on Sonnabend's work, I strongly believed that GRID was an STD.  I couldn't prove it then, of course, but I wanted to present it at least as a possibility and wanted to suggest ways to diminish that possibility.

Sadly, my effort at presenting all of this was shut down. The then-president of GMHC, Paul Popham, insisted that "we can't tell people how to have sex." Popham and the rest of the board of directors--except for Larry Kramer--did not want to even discuss the single-agent theory until it had been proven scientifically.  I resigned from the editorship. My friends and others thought I was a paranoid nut-case and called me a Cassandra and worse, including the ultimate gay anathema, "internalized homophobia."  

Several crucial years in battling the pandemic were lost before GMHC finally came around to advocating safer-sex principles.  The number of lives ended because of this head-in-the-sand attitude haunts me to this day, even though it's now obvious that so many in the first wave were already infected by 1981-82, including myself.  The stubborn refusal to modify the principles of 1970s gay sexual liberation--as much as you want, as often as you want, however you want, wherever you want, with whomever you want--so valuable at one time, cost us dearly.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 02:26:57 AM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2011, 07:05:49 AM »
I can only agree with you.

There were those of us on this side of the pond too facing exactly the same hostility.

The only difference is that in Sonnabend's case, and a view I agreed with which attracted quite hysterical hostility, that it was not simply a virus and that everyone contracting that virus would automatically go on to suffer the same health issues, but that 'HIV' responds most brutally and quickly in people whose immune systems are most damaged at the point of infection. That was proven in those early days in as many as 90% of the cases in gay men: exchanging toxic semen with astronomic numbers of individuals annually; major recreational drug use; massive use of poppers; multiple annual STI infections and multiple annual courses of immune lowering antibiotics and prophylactic use of antibiotics, on top of conventional health dangers such as smoking and alcohol. As well as that a very high percentage of those people also had a history of severe bowel disorders prior to that in the late 70s.
All of this was heresy to many gay men who felt moral judgements were being made on their choices, rather than a reflection of how certain choices put stress on the body - irrespective of HIV - and that ill health was common, and would have continued to be common with that lifestyle even if 'HIV' never existed.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2011, 01:14:53 PM »
I can only agree with you.

There were those of us on this side of the pond too facing exactly the same hostility.

The only difference is that in Sonnabend's case, and a view I agreed with which attracted quite hysterical hostility, that it was not simply a virus and that everyone contracting that virus would automatically go on to suffer the same health issues, but that 'HIV' responds most brutally and quickly in people whose immune systems are most damaged at the point of infection. That was proven in those early days in as many as 90% of the cases in gay men: exchanging toxic semen with astronomic numbers of individuals annually; major recreational drug use; massive use of poppers; multiple annual STI infections and multiple annual courses of immune lowering antibiotics and prophylactic use of antibiotics, on top of conventional health dangers such as smoking and alcohol. As well as that a very high percentage of those people also had a history of severe bowel disorders prior to that in the late 70s.
All of this was heresy to many gay men who felt moral judgements were being made on their choices, rather than a reflection of how certain choices put stress on the body - irrespective of HIV - and that ill health was common, and would have continued to be common with that lifestyle even if 'HIV' never existed.

These things are not determining factors in how quickly your immune system will falter.  The reason everyone is jumping on your case is you are making claims that are completely unbacked and passing them off as facts.

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2011, 03:18:04 PM »
These things are not determining factors in how quickly your immune system will falter.  The reason everyone is jumping on your case is you are making claims that are completely unbacked and passing them off as facts.

You need to have phrased the above as 'These things are not..[in my view]...' or '[I do not believe]..these things are....'
What you happen to 'believe' is not a verifiable and indisputable 'fact' and so cannot be put across as such.

And with the greatest respect Hellraiser, I am not making any 'claims'. I am giving an opinion (one I have held for the best part of 30 years) and is shared by:
1. Dr Joseph Sonnabend
2. Professor Luc Montagnier
as well as a host of other scientists, researchers, physicians and 1000s of individuals.

It is that 'HIV' will impact on someone whose immune system is already heavily compromised, more brutally and rapidly.
That is actually fairly close to 'common sense' anyway. But in any case, I'm sure you are aware that the standard immune markers are affected by illness and, for example, take quite a dive when on antibiotics alone - even among negative people.
That has been known for a very long time.

The fact that I happen to agree with the consistent view of one of the most famous HIV/AIDS physicians in the world - who is also a microbiologist as well as STI and general physician - and the primary discoverer of 'HIV' leaves me confident in my opinion that HIV/AIDS is not and never has been black and white in every human being.

If, as you say, people are 'coming down on me' for that, so be it. It's a free world (still?).

Best wishes

Matt
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 03:24:41 PM by Matt39 »

Offline newt

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2011, 03:25:42 PM »
It is a bitter sadness to me that between 1971 when Colorado and Oregon repealed their sodomy laws and 1981 showing us the first* case reports of AIDS (then GRID) was but 10 years, and for me all that sex and fellowship must be construed as a political act of claiming the public and private space as ours. For it was, most of the time, highly illegal and from the medical orthodoxy's point of view an illness.

Dr Jospeh Sonnabend is an important historical figure regarding preventing HIV transmission (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Sonnabend) but safer sex wasn't his invention alone, it was AS EQUALLY the work of Richard Berkowitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Berkowitz) and Micahel Callen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Callen).

The theory about (then) GRID and drug use, multiple sexual partners, and unsafe sexual practices in the gay community was (mostly rightly) contested from the beginning by GMHC. And the stuff on CMV was wrong. But How to Have Sex In an Epidemic basically described the kernel of safer sex and remains a seminal text. You can read it here in facsimile: http://richardberkowitz.com/category/4-how-to-have-sex-in-an-epidemic. It opens with a statement of neutrality: we don't say don't have sex or do, but if you do....

Seminal might be slightly unfortunate here, but I mean it, they started something worldwide. Never let us forget it was started by a musician, doctor and a whore, and they were laughed at for saying what they said.

Obviously, HIV will impact on someone who's not looking after themselves, like any other condition, but that is not, in my book, something to become a moral benchmark, guide for political resistance, or indeed the essential nature of the condition (it's the HIV). Montagnier wasn't having the very fibres of his being repressed or making waves to create and demonstrate the conditions of freedom.

It's so damn sad that (a modicum of) equal rights and human recognition came with a big, sneaky pain in the backside.

@Matt39 - Fellow matt, I apologise for being short with you last night in another post.

- matt


* There were some earlier reports of AIDS-like conditions in women in northern American cities, many of them "gay women" and African-American, mostly injecting drug users, but you can't even find the abstracts online anymore.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 03:27:17 PM by newt »
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2011, 03:37:26 PM »

Dr Jospeh Sonnabend is an important historical figure regarding preventing HIV transmission (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Sonnabend) but safer sex wasn't his invention alone, it was AS EQUALLY the work of Richard Berkowitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Berkowitz) and Micahel Callen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Callen).

Well, actually yes. Just as I said in my post that first raised Sonnabend - him and two of his *patients* and they were the patients.

The theory about (then) GRID
1982

Obviously, HIV will impact on someone who's not looking after themselves, like any other condition, but that is not, in my book, something to become a moral benchmark

Me neither. I didn't see it then, or now, as a 'moral' issue but a health choice issue. I will never tell someone not to get fucked up the arse bareback by 1000 different people, while on coke, sniffing poppers, and ingesting 100s of grams of antibiotics a year if that is there choice. But I will defend their right to make that choice with information on the consequences - whether or not 'HIV' existed.

I appreciate your comments and I welcome this whole discussion.
I believe it can only be constructive.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2011, 05:02:28 PM »
I fully understand where you are coming from but that doesn't for one moment negate potential benefits of combining allopathic treatment (conventional western drug therapy) with efficacious herbal remedies.

Are we not all in favour of everyone making an intelligent and considered choice for themselves, without erecting straw bogeymen to knock down?

By the way, something I forgot to include in my response to your previous post about ARVs v Herbal Remedies (as if it is really one or the other anyway, which it is not), in which you said that your deciding factor was that 'ARVs save lives'. I'm afraid we do not know that either yet, or at all.
If you look at the 20,000 cohort study published in the 'Lancet' in 2006, that submitted the outcomes in all cases of the first 10 years of combination therapy to scientific analysis and peer-review, the conclusion was stark and very disappointing:
'"Virological response after starting HAART improved over calendar years, but such improvement has not translated into a decrease in mortality"
So combination therapy has not yet shown it can save lives - the same rate of death was occurring if a little longer down the line than may have otherwise been the case.
ARVs are still *not* a magic cure in any shape or form.

I know the conversation has moved on (back to Milk thistle!) but I think it is important to clarify a few things about this study for the benefit of others who browse these forums.

First, this is a reputable study and has been followed by many other reputable studies using the data maintained by the Antiretroviral Therapy (ART) Cohort Collaboration.  Those papers include the ones showing that people who are able to get tcell counts up to 500 for a period have basically normal life expectancies which we have discussed at length in other threads.

Second, Matt39 has clearly misread the conclusion as stated in the abstract. 

The abstract says (in the link he provided under the "methods" portion)

"The primary endpoints were the hazard ratios for AIDS and for death from all causes in the first year of HAART, which were estimated using Cox regression." (emphasis added)


The results section goes into more detail " Compared with 1998, adjusted hazard ratios for AIDS were 1∑07 (95% CI 0∑84ó1∑36) in 1995ó96 and 1∑35 (1∑06ó1∑71) in 2002ó03. Corresponding figures for death were 0∑87 (0∑56ó1∑36) and 0∑96 (0∑61ó1∑51)."

The abstract interpretation says: "Virological response after starting HAART improved over calendar years, but such improvement has not translated into a decrease in mortality."

So this study was looking at whether HAART was getting better at controlling death and AIDS in the first year after starting HAART.  It was not looking at whether HAART was better than nothing.  HAART saves many many lives -- this study does not dispute that. Indeed other studies based on the ART cohort data have shown that fact in great detail. 

Instead, this limited study looks only to the years after HAART was introduced and finds that during the years 1996 to 2006 the drug therapies got better at controlling viral load for most people during the year that they start HAART, but didn't make any progress on saving the lives of people who started HAART too late and died during that crucial first year of treatment.

It is important to provide links to papers not only so that others can evaluate whether the paper is worthwhile, but also so they can see whether you have appropriately read the conclusions.  Here. Matt39 misread the paper as comparing treatment with HAART to no treatment; the paper was actually about starting HAART when it was first introduced versus starting HAART 10 years later.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline newt

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2011, 05:34:09 PM »
Quote
the drug therapies got better at controlling viral load for most people during the year that they start HAART, but didn't make any progress on saving the lives of people who started HAART too late and died during that crucial first year of treatment.

Yer, but there's a world of difference between people being diagnosed late eg CD4 200 or (considerably) less and being diagnosed with high CD4 counts. Plus the Americans, by virtue of the high proportion of injecting drug users without access to timely care in the US, skew the results. Take these people out, and the odds of health are greatly improved (applies to many cohort studies). << this is so far from the pros and cons of milk thistle.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2011, 06:22:22 PM »
Yer, but there's a world of difference between people being diagnosed late eg CD4 200 or (considerably) less and being diagnosed with high CD4 counts. Plus the Americans, by virtue of the high proportion of injecting drug users without access to timely care in the US, skew the results. Take these people out, and the odds of health are greatly improved (applies to many cohort studies). << this is so far from the pros and cons of milk thistle.

- matt


Yes -- for whatever reason some people start treatment so sick or so unable to be adherent that HAART does not save them.  Whether late is used in the sense of tcell progression or some other basis is not really the controlling issue.  The point of this study was that over its first 10 years HAART had gotten better at rapidly reducing viral loads, but not in rescuing those within a year of death when they started.

The main point of my post, of course, is that this was not a study of whether HAART works to save lives (it does) but of whether HAART had gotten better at doing so after its introduction.  Since Matt39 had used his mistaken understanding of the results of the study in both this thread and others, I thought it would be useful to point out where his reading had accidentally gone off track.

edit -- wrong word
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2011, 08:15:27 AM »
Y

The main point of my post, of course, is that this was not a study of whether HAART works to save lives (it does) but of whether HAART had gotten better at doing so after its introduction.  Since Matt39 had used his mistaken understanding of the results of the study in both this thread and others, I thought it would be useful to point out where his reading had accidentally gone off track.

edit -- wrong word

You'll forgive me for saying that I simply don't agree with your interpretation.
You can cut it any way you like, there are no hard consistent 'facts' to be interpreted from such a study, ie 'patient profile 'A' on HAART will live to x years, whereas patient profile 'B' will only live to y years, and patient 'C' will live a normal life span'
I'm afraid that is wishful thinking, as is the erroneous conclusion that we have *any idea whatsoever* whether *anyone* of any kind of personal profile and age can expect a 'normal' life span. That is simply just guesswork.
We have no way of knowing how long HAART maintains CD4 numbers or VL suppression. There is no way that can be know until a large enough number of people have passed a certain age/treatment years number.
Everything else is simply projection.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2011, 11:03:04 AM »
You'll forgive me for saying that I simply don't agree with your interpretation.
You can cut it any way you like, there are no hard consistent 'facts' to be interpreted from such a study, ie 'patient profile 'A' on HAART will live to x years, whereas patient profile 'B' will only live to y years, and patient 'C' will live a normal life span'
I'm afraid that is wishful thinking, as is the erroneous conclusion that we have *any idea whatsoever* whether *anyone* of any kind of personal profile and age can expect a 'normal' life span. That is simply just guesswork.
We have no way of knowing how long HAART maintains CD4 numbers or VL suppression. There is no way that can be know until a large enough number of people have passed a certain age/treatment years number.
Everything else is simply projection.

Life expectancy calculations are projections.

And it is an error, although a common one,  to say we don't have enough data.  We have 15 years of experience of people on HAART constituting over a million life years of experience and demonstrating a reduction in mortality rates for people on HAART at a wide variety of ages.  That is more than enough data to calculate rigourous and valid mortality tables and life expectancies.  People will quibble about whether the data might get worse -- they do that with studies of the general population too (the latest is all the moaning about the potential for the obesity epidemic to roll back life expectancy gains).  But the fact is that the data we have show huge gains to life expectancy from HAART, calculated using a rigourous, scientifically unexceptional approach.

In point of fact, the paper you cited does not support your point of view -- it is not even about what you thought it was about -- and you are not likely to find a paper that has gone through rigorous peer review that does support your view.  That's because denalism doesn't generally survive peer review.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2011, 03:33:35 PM »
Like you, I sincerely hope that we all will benefit in the long term from our HAART therapy notwithstanding existing problems with it. If that is what you call 'denialism' then frankly you have me confused.
However, to get back to that study.
As with all studies without exception they are intended to give evidence to support or not a hoped-for outcome. That study was, to a large degree, a disappointment for the study authors and they make that plain. And it makes the case for ratcheting up of research into forms of 'HAART 2' they will give far better outcomes. Being prepared to face the evidence and with open eyes and not rose-tinted spectacles is crucial in all areas of ill-health and medicine, whether it be 'HIV/AIDS' or anything else.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2011, 03:44:52 PM »
Like you, I sincerely hope that we all will benefit in the long term from our HAART therapy notwithstanding existing problems with it. If that is what you call 'denialism' then frankly you have me confused.
However, to get back to that study.
As with all studies without exception they are intended to give evidence to support or not a hoped-for outcome. That study was, to a large degree, a disappointment for the study authors and they make that plain. And it makes the case for ratcheting up of research into forms of 'HAART 2' they will give far better outcomes. Being prepared to face the evidence and with open eyes and not rose-tinted spectacles is crucial in all areas of ill-health and medicine, whether it be 'HIV/AIDS' or anything else.

I personally don't think you're a denialist, I just think you're touting the unproven in the way of herbs/natural remedies as being similar or equivalent to HAART.  At least from reading your posts this is the impression that I've gotten.  HAART isn't perfect but it is the current best option.

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2011, 04:23:58 PM »
I personally don't think you're a denialist, I just think you're touting the unproven in the way of herbs/natural remedies as being similar or equivalent to HAART.  At least from reading your posts this is the impression that I've gotten.  HAART isn't perfect but it is the current best option.

I don't tout herbal medicine or alternative remedies as either similar or equivalent. And I most definitely have not suggested the choice is or must be one or the other. Ultimately, the choice is down to every single individual and should be based on free access to the widest possible information.
What I do believe is that for some people in some circumstances herbal or other remedies have a part to play.
Large numbers of 'HIV+' people already use them successfully both in the lead up to HAART and in conjunction to HAART. That just happens to be a fact.
That has served me well and others have shown that it serves them well too.
But every single human being is unique and what works well for one wont necessarily work well for another - that goes for every form of medical treatment.

Let me give you an example:

Glutathione is the single most powerful anti-oxidant known to humankind. Oxidation, and oxidative stress, is known to be a major cause of reduced immune function - that's why it is talked about, in general health, so much. It is something that Professor Luc Montagnier has been banging on about since 1990 and increasingly so. He is in public record as saying that he believes that oxidative stress is a major factor in why some people with 'HIV' infection go on to become ill more quickly than others, and why some people - without it - appear to avoid illness for very long periods even when not on HAART.
Gluthaione is naturally occurring in the body but with age, the body's ability to create it diminishes in *everyone*. Research has shown that in a large number of 'HIV+' people, there is a severe deficiency of Glutathione.

At the outset when I tested poz, I had my Glutahione levels tested and they were significantly lowered.
So I chose to try ways of elevating them.

I had already discovered through research that it is extremely difficult to supplement the body's level of Glutathione directly by conventional oral supplementation - sadly, as with much oral supplementation the bulk of it is destroyed in the stomach. Even the 'highly-regarded' branded forms (extremely expensive usually $100 per month) haven't come out that well in tests either.

Given by IV they have proven to be much more successful but with the twin problems of (a) finding a qualified physician both trained and willing to administer it at the right level, and (b) the very high cost.

So, if I wanted to have any prospect of success I had to find another way.

That led me to reading about how people involved in weight-training use common supplements to try and cause the Liver to increase production of Glutathione, and I discovered it had also been used by people who were 'HIV+' and people also with aids-illnesses.

So I chose to try that myself, and I began a daily supplement of undenatured* whey protein, and non-essential amino acids such as N-acetylcysteine and Alpha Lipoic Acid. The reason I also take Silymarin is because that too assists in the process and these are all considered 'precursurs' for Glutathione production.

After doing the above for some three months, I began having my Glutahione levels checked every three months for a further 12 months, and they were elevated consistently.

I am not saying that this would be uniformly replicated for everyone or anyone but it did for me and my HIV doctor knew at all times exactly what I was doing.

And the above (apart from the Silymarin) none of those supplements were herbal and probably masses of people here have used them anyway if they are regular gym goers and use weights!

*most whey protein is 'denatured' ie treated at temperatures so high it is no longer possible to have the same interaction, though if you simply use if for weight-training purposes or non-Glutathione production it is totally fine.
I have also read in many threads about people on HAART also use L-Tyrosene to improve mental focus and combat tiredness, with some success. I use it at a max of 500mg per day and I feel sharper with it.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 04:37:10 PM by Matt39 »

Offline newt

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2011, 05:37:57 PM »
The original 2006 Lancet study mentioned pages back (abstract here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16890831?dopt=AbstractPlus) was one of the first publications from the ART-CC group, an international collaboration to look at outcomes for ART worldwide.

In this study, while the narrative conclusion is that virological response after starting HAART has improved over the years, but this has not translated into a decrease in mortality, looking at the confidence intervals for AIDS or death happening in 1998 and 2003, the matter is strictly speaking undecidable. It is perfectly feasible that combo by 2003 was HUGELY protective. Real life seems to bear this out.

There have been subsequent publications, each showing a more optimistic picture in the developed world.

The ART-CC now has enough data to provide a risk calculator of AIDS/death by age, gender, CD4 count etc at time of starting combo and 6 months after. It is undoubtedly conservative because it uses retrospective data. Chances are almost certainly better on treatment than they say now. It is also unfortunate that, while you might look like a person described in the calculator by age, gender etc, you can't really say if the results will apply to you exactly.

But, in the generality, yes, I think we have a pretty good idea now about what combo can achieve, good and bad points.

I am the UK community rep on the ART-CC study.

The ART-CC homepage is here:

http://www.art-cohort-collaboration.org/

They say nothing about milk thistle or any other supplements.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2011, 06:30:56 PM »
In this study, while the narrative conclusion is that virological response after starting HAART has improved over the years, but this has not translated into a decrease in mortality, looking at the confidence intervals for AIDS or death happening in 1998 and 2003, the matter is strictly speaking undecidable.

Would it not be more accurate to state
" this has not translated into a decrease in mortality after starting HAART"?

That is not the same as a comparison of mortality with and without HAART, which is the comparison Matt39 read into this study.  (He said "So combination therapy has not yet shown it can save lives -"  This would require a comparison of those starting HAART with those who did not as opposed to a study which compared people starting HAART at different points in time.)
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline newt

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2011, 07:01:36 PM »
The evidence, scientific and practical, is in favour of concluding combo stops people dying. It's a fig ina pig to say otherwise. How long for? is a good question, but I reckon, f you start in good time, it's long enough. Long enough to eg get life insurance in the UK at a modest premium (under favourable circumstances, ie you have supressed viral load, reasonably high CD4 count, don't shoot up and didn't start treatment late).  Long enough to need a pension.

That will do me.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline bocker3

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2011, 10:03:44 PM »
The evidence, scientific and practical, is in favour of concluding combo stops people dying. It's a fig ina pig to say otherwise. How long for? is a good question, but I reckon, f you start in good time, it's long enough. Long enough to eg get life insurance in the UK at a modest premium (under favourable circumstances, ie you have supressed viral load, reasonably high CD4 count, don't shoot up and didn't start treatment late).  Long enough to need a pension.

That will do me.

- matt


You are, as always, a very wise man Matt.

Will HIV still get me in the end??  Perhaps, but in the meantime, I am getting to watch my grandkids grow up -- without HAART, I probably never would have even met my fourth one -- sweet little Kaitlyn.  So, folks can pick their nits on details -- but I know HAART saves lives -- and enriches others.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #94 on: February 24, 2011, 10:11:37 PM »


They say nothing about milk thistle or any other supplements.

- matt


And that proves or means what exactly?

Nothing.

It certainly doesn't mean that Clint Walters of the UK, (and a large number of men in similar circumstances) who had been on HAART for most of his adult life, would or would not have dropped stone dead of heart failure at 31 if he had been on combined treatment. But he did drop stone dead of heart failure one spring Sunday afternoon in 2010 none the less.

No research has been done, so it means absolutely nothing.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 10:13:39 PM by Matt39 »

Offline newt

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2011, 02:57:47 PM »
Touchť, but wrong in my book, there's loads of research on ARV outcomes. The research on this is much and sound. As with all aggregated data on risk, you can't tell if it applies to you personally. It might help alleviate anxiety though, to know eg ARVs reduce your risk of illness (including heart attack) and death etc in general, and perhaps, typically, by how much.

A colleague's daughter dropped dead at 21 of a heart attack, not HIV+, not on any ARVs, so I don't see what evoking the ghost of Clint achieves. Everyone can find an exceptional event.

The milk thistle remark was an attempt at humour, since this thread is about milk thistle and it's gone off-topic onto final outcomes. There you go. Internet is a hard place to be humourous I guess. (<< Soz to the people looking for info on milk thistle)

I am wise to the effects of long-term therapy, and long-term HIV infection. It's a matter that concerns me daily. But I am not gonna over-egg the situation by agreeing we know nothing about the long-term benefits, yes mostly benefits, of ARVs. The data doesn't support making an omlette out of the uncertainties at present.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2011, 03:17:47 PM »
AidsInfoNet.org - a very reputable orthodox site
Fact sheet 735 on Silymarin (Milk Thistle)
http://www.aidsinfonet.org/fact_sheets/view/735

Aids Info net Project Staff:
http://www.aidsinfonet.org/project-staff

 


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