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Author Topic: Milk Thistle benefits?  (Read 20263 times)

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nychope1

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Milk Thistle benefits?
« on: November 22, 2010, 06:44:18 PM »
Any experience or opinions about Milk Thistle? I understand it is good for your liver. Is it safe to take with meds? 

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 07:02:05 PM »
It used to be really recommended for HIV patients. Now, not so much. At least, not without caveats related to protease inhibitors and other HIV meds that are processed through the liver:

http://www.skyeherbals.com/materia_medica/milk_thistle.php

Quote
Side Effects:

There are no known contra-indications to Milk Thistle supplements. There is, however, a caution for HIV patients, because many medications taken by individuals diagnosed with HIV/AIDS (PHAs) - such as protease inhibitors and non-nukes are processed by the liver enzyme CYP3A4 which is decreased by Silymarin. If Milk Thistle is taken by someone using protease inhibitors or non-nukes, it has the potential to raise levels of these drugs. This should not be a concern as long as levels of these drugs are monitored closely and dosage is adjusted to reach the desired levels.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Welcome Thread

nychope1

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 07:14:11 PM »
Interesting. One or two of the ingredients in Atripla are protease inhibitors.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 08:31:00 PM by nychope1 »

Offline edfu

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 05:23:39 AM »
There are no protease inhibitors in Atripla. 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Ann

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 07:24:00 AM »
I did a lot of research on milk thistle when I had hep C. What I found out was that it can sometimes mask liver damage by artificially lowering your liver enzyme levels. While many people who have hep C use it, it is not recommended.

I have to assume that if it can mask liver damage in people with something like hep C, it could also possibly mask liver damage in people who are on drug regimens that tax the liver.

As with many herbal supplements, sometimes it's better to be safe than sorry and stay away from them. Just because they're herbal or "natural" doesn't mean they're necessarily safe. Don't forget that many modern drugs are derived from such "natural" substances. Natural substances can be damaging and they're also not usually subjected to the same rigorous testing protocols as drugs. So, buyer beware!
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nychope1

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 08:34:02 PM »
Thank you for all of this information. So, from what you said, Ann.. Milk Thistle can mask potential liver damage so that one would not know if it is helping their liver. I only have HIV and am on Atripla. I do enjoy a few beers and sometimes a few bourbons during the week and thought MT would be a good way to keep the ole liver in check.

Also, thanks, edfu for letting me know Atripla isn't a protease inhibitor or a non-nuke.

Offline edfu

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2010, 09:31:24 PM »
Also, thanks, edfu for letting me know Atripla isn't a protease inhibitor or a non-nuke.

I didn't say Atripla isn't a non-nuke; I said there were no protease inihibitors in Atripla.

Atripla = Sustiva (evafirenz) + tenofovir + emtricitabine

Sustiva is a non-nuke.  Tenofovir and emtricitabine are nukes. 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

nychope1

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2010, 11:02:04 PM »
Ah.. sorry about that. Thanks for the correction. Still learning here. Only my 18th dose of Atripla. Just read this and cleared up the difference of non-nukes and protease inhibitors. http://www.thebody.com/content/art878.html

Offline aztecan

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 12:18:59 PM »
I take milk thistle to help me try to reverse the hepatic steatosis that I have had issues with.

My liver enzymes have returned to normal and the non-alcoholic steato heptitis I was dealing with seems to either have reversed itself or diminished substantially.

I should note that I am taking Truvada/Isentress, which means I am taking two nukes and an integrase inhibitor. In other words, not non-nukes or PIs.

It seems to have helped me, but that is purely anecdotal.

HUGS,

Mark
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~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

nychope1

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2010, 02:19:36 PM »
Great feedback..

I think I'm going to try and find a Milk Thistle tea or a low dosage capsule. I want to try it out for a little while. I am not an alcoholic, no clapping please, but I do or did enjoy my beer and sometimes bourbon. Now that I am on Atripla I want to cleanse my liver and repair any damage there might be. I don't have elevated liver enzymes or any Hepatitis so it's purely for tonic purposes.

Cheers..

Offline cardsfan69

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 02:40:34 PM »
I always used to take milk thistle b/c i'm on testosterone replacement but my liver enzymes were always kinda high. I take viramune and combivir. Then i did some research online and found out that milk thistle increases the half life of viramune and keeps it in your liver longer. As soon as I stopped taking the milk thistle my liver enzymes dropped back down to normal.

Offline aztecan

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 05:28:20 PM »
I always used to take milk thistle b/c i'm on testosterone replacement but my liver enzymes were always kinda high. I take viramune and combivir. Then i did some research online and found out that milk thistle increases the half life of viramune and keeps it in your liver longer. As soon as I stopped taking the milk thistle my liver enzymes dropped back down to normal.

Exactly why people always should tell their docs what they are taking, even if they are "natural" or herbal.

My doctor monitors my liver enzymes closely, and since I am not on a non-nuke nor a PI, I wasn't too concerned about it affecting the bloodstread levels of the meds I take.

As Ann said, it is better to err on the side of caution if there is a concern, and always talk it over with your doctor.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2011, 06:21:03 AM »
Firstly, there is no clinical evidence that Silymarin (Milk Thistle) masks liver damage, and my own HIV Consultant (UK) considers it fine with Atripla or Truvada/Isentress.
Liquid Form Milk Thistle (80% active Silymarin) is best and should be taken as 1ml in a little water with meals no more than 3 times a day.
There is an alternative, for people who are *not* either on drugs for, or battling high blood pressure, and that is Liquorice Root (tea infusion or tincture) 1-2 times a day. That has been the focus in HIV dietary studies.

Offline Ann

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2011, 11:31:39 AM »
Firstly, there is no clinical evidence that Silymarin (Milk Thistle) masks liver damage,

Actually, there is a study or two out there that shows exactly this - in the presence of hep C. I suggested in my post above that it could conceivably do the same in other conditions, even if there have not been studies specifically looking at other conditions and milk thistle.

See, that's the problem with some of these so-called "natural" or "herbal" remedies. Most of them have not been put under the same sort of scrutiny that pharmaceutical meds have been and we use these "natural" remedies at our own peril/discretion.

Anyone thinking of using such "natural" remedies should first discuss them with your doctor and if you use them - with your doctor's blessing or against advice - your doctor should be aware what you're using and in what quantities.

By the way, have no idea where the studies I read nearly a decade ago are now and I have no inclination to spend hours looking them up again. You may, if you're so inclined.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2011, 03:17:55 PM »
Actually, there is a study or two out there that shows exactly this - in the presence of hep C. I suggested in my post above that it could conceivably do the same in other conditions, even if there have not been studies specifically looking at other conditions and milk thistle.

See, that's the problem with some of these so-called "natural" or "herbal" remedies. Most of them have not been put under the same sort of scrutiny that pharmaceutical meds have been and we use these "natural" remedies at our own peril/discretion.

Anyone thinking of using such "natural" remedies should first discuss them with your doctor and if you use them - with your doctor's blessing or against advice - your doctor should be aware what you're using and in what quantities.

By the way, have no idea where the studies I read nearly a decade ago are now and I have no inclination to spend hours looking them up again. You may, if you're so inclined.

Firstly, it is a myth that non-chemical, non-pharmaceutical formulations are not subject to clinical research. Many have been, and virtually all have been subject to centuries of in-vivo use by billions of people. Their use in clearly-defined circumstances has been established for a lot longer than conventional pharmaceuticals.
The main well-known and *obvious* reason why they are not routinely subject to double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials is because they cannot be 'patented'. There is no money at the end of it for the funders of such research (mostly BigPharma), so when they are it is because of funding by charitable trusts.

Care is required with *any* formulation used for health benefits - no matter whether conventional or not.
It is simply silly and counter-productive to advocate a medically illiterate stance that is, by default, 'anti-alternative'.

Using the parenthesis for 'natural' or 'herbal' is simply ludicrous, when 95% of successful medical care to the entire population of the most populous region on this planet is 'herbal', displays ignorance of the worst kind, and does 'HIV+' individuals no favours.

Anyone undergoing treatment and care from an allopathic physician - for *whatever* condition whether 'HIV' or not - should discuss *any* formulations they are using for medicinal purposes additional, supplementary or complementary to that physician's treatment - that is just obvious. And the opposite applies too - my Naturopath knows exactly what allopathic medicine I am using.

As far as whether allopathic medicine is more 'rigorously' tested, therefore automatically 'safer' is frankly not applicable when it comes to 'HIV'.
ARVs are unique in western allopathic medicine in having, without exception, been passed through a 'short-circuit' in drug testing and are *not* subject to the same kind of large scale, time-persistent double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trials. They are *not* at *any time* subject to the same trialling for side-effects as *any other* drugs.
It is for that reason that all 'HIV' recipients of ARVs are guinea pigs without exception.
Side-effects and their severity are in fact only fully discovered gradually and post in-vivo administration.
All of us who choose to take those medications anyway, which is one we make and is valid, should nonetheless do so in the full knowledge of that. The sad thing is, most people are not made aware of that crucial difference so they make a judgement in ignorance, and that stance above - which actually seeks to pretend otherwise - is damaging. Otherwise people like Sean Strub wouldn't be blogging about it just around the corridor on poz.com.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 03:35:18 PM by Matt39 »

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2011, 03:35:36 PM »
Quote from Matt39
ARVs are unique in western allopathic medicine in having, without exception, been passed through a 'short-circuit' in drug testing and are *not* subject to the same kind of large scale, time-persistent double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trials. They are *not* at *any time* subject to the same trialling for side-effects as *any other* drugs.
It is for that reason that all 'HIV' recipients of ARVs are guinea pigs without exception.
Side-effects and their severity are in fact only fully discovered gradually and post in-vivo administration.




The difference as I see it is that ARV's have been reviewed and can save your life where as so called natural remedy's or Naturopath remedy's will not and can sometime be dangerous .

Welcome to forums .

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2011, 03:46:17 PM »
Quote from Matt39
ARVs are unique in western allopathic medicine in having, without exception, been passed through a 'short-circuit' in drug testing and are *not* subject to the same kind of large scale, time-persistent double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trials. They are *not* at *any time* subject to the same trialling for side-effects as *any other* drugs.
It is for that reason that all 'HIV' recipients of ARVs are guinea pigs without exception.
Side-effects and their severity are in fact only fully discovered gradually and post in-vivo administration.




The difference as I see it is that ARV's have been reviewed and can save your life where as so called natural remedy's or Naturopath remedy's will not and can sometime be dangerous .

Welcome to forums .

ARVs have not been reviewed any more rigorously than 'herbal' remedies - much less so in fact.
They are also extremely toxic - often fatally so - and lead to serious medical danger in many cases. We are still, all of us on ARVs, literally taking our lives into our own hands and we are a very long way from the finishing post in knowing, at best, how long we will actually survive on them, or anywhere near to knowing how long they will maintain their CD4 maintenance or VL suppressive effects. It is far far far too early.
Those who choose to pretend otherwise have a right to adopt that mental attitude, however unproven scientifically it is.
Better to be in the game with your eyes open but those who choose not to should also avoid trying to shut anyone else's eyes.

Thank you for the welcome.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2011, 03:55:10 PM »
ARVs have not been reviewed any more rigorously than 'herbal' remedies - much less so in fact.
They are also extremely toxic - often fatally so - and lead to serious medical danger in many cases. We are still, all of us on ARVs, literally taking our lives into our own hands and we are a very long way from the finishing post in knowing, at best, how long we will actually survive on them, or anywhere near to knowing how long they will maintain their CD4 maintenance or VL suppressive effects. It is far far far too early.
Those who choose to pretend otherwise have a right to adopt that mental attitude, however unproven scientifically it is.
Better to be in the game with your eyes open but those who choose not to should also avoid trying to shut anyone else's eyes.

Thank you for the welcome.

Rubbish.

MtD

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2011, 04:01:50 PM »
ARVs have not been reviewed any more rigorously than 'herbal' remedies - much less so in fact.
They are also extremely toxic - often fatally so - and lead to serious medical danger in many cases. We are still, all of us on ARVs, literally taking our lives into our own hands and we are a very long way from the finishing post in knowing, at best, how long we will actually survive on them, or anywhere near to knowing how long they will maintain their CD4 maintenance or VL suppressive effects. It is far far far too early.
Those who choose to pretend otherwise have a right to adopt that mental attitude, however unproven scientifically it is.
Better to be in the game with your eyes open but those who choose not to should also avoid trying to shut anyone else's eyes.

Thank you for the welcome.

Herbal remedies are dietary supplements  and have not been reviewed by the FDA as drugs are so I would think there is a big difference about what information is available about ARV's as opposed to dietary supplements , this is the point I was trying to make .  

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2011, 04:16:57 PM »
I fully understand where you are coming from but that doesn't for one moment negate potential benefits of combining allopathic treatment (conventional western drug therapy) with efficacious herbal remedies.

Are we not all in favour of everyone making an intelligent and considered choice for themselves, without erecting straw bogeymen to knock down?

By the way, something I forgot to include in my response to your previous post about ARVs v Herbal Remedies (as if it is really one or the other anyway, which it is not), in which you said that your deciding factor was that 'ARVs save lives'. I'm afraid we do not know that either yet, or at all.
If you look at the 20,000 cohort study published in the 'Lancet' in 2006, that submitted the outcomes in all cases of the first 10 years of combination therapy to scientific analysis and peer-review, the conclusion was stark and very disappointing:
'"Virological response after starting HAART improved over calendar years, but such improvement has not translated into a decrease in mortality"
So combination therapy has not yet shown it can save lives - the same rate of death was occurring if a little longer down the line than may have otherwise been the case.
ARVs are still *not* a magic cure in any shape or form.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 04:20:07 PM by Matt39 »

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2011, 04:26:27 PM »
I fully understand where you are coming from but that doesn't for one moment negate potential benefits of combining allopathic treatment (conventional western drug therapy) with efficacious herbal remedies.

Are we not all in favour of everyone making an intelligent and considered choice for themselves, without erecting straw bogeymen to knock down?

By the way, something I forgot to include in my response to your previous post about ARVs v Herbal Remedies (as if it is really one or the other anyway, which it is not), in which you said that your deciding factor was that 'ARVs save lives'. I'm afraid we do not know that either yet, or at all.
If you look at the 20,000 cohort study published in the 'Lancet' in 2006, that submitted the outcomes in all cases of the first 10 years of combination therapy to scientific analysis and peer-review, the conclusion was stark and very disappointing:
'"Virological response after starting HAART improved over calendar years, but such improvement has not translated into a decrease in mortality"
So combination therapy has not yet shown it can save lives - the same rate of death was occurring if a little longer down the line than may have otherwise been the case.
ARVs are still *not* a magic cure in any shape or form.

I was dieing when I started ARV's and Im alive now .... you know this is something I will let others speak too because its too fucking painful to discuss this rationally remembering my dead friends who didn't live live long enough to see ARV's .   

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2011, 04:34:15 PM »
I fully understand where you are coming from but that doesn't for one moment negate potential benefits of combining allopathic treatment (conventional western drug therapy) with efficacious herbal remedies.

You use the term "allopathic" incorrectly. It is a POV term used by proponents of SCAM (Supplementary, Complementary and Alternative Medicine) to discredit western orthodox medicine.

Quote
Are we not all in favour of everyone making an intelligent and considered choice for themselves, without erecting straw bogeymen to knock down?

Erecting a strawman to knock down an (alleged) strawman? Cute. :)

Quote
By the way, something I forgot to include in my response to your previous post about ARVs v Herbal Remedies (as if it is really one or the other anyway, which it is not), in which you said that your deciding factor was that 'ARVs save lives'. I'm afraid we do not know that either yet, or at all.
If you look at the 20,000 cohort study published in the 'Lancet' in 2006, that submitted the outcomes in all cases of the first 10 years of combination therapy to scientific analysis and peer-review, the conclusion was stark and very disappointing:
'"Virological response after starting HAART improved over calendar years, but such improvement has not translated into a decrease in mortality"
So combination therapy has not yet shown it can save lives - the same rate of death was occurring if a little longer down the line than may have otherwise been the case.
ARVs are still *not* a magic cure in any shape or form.

Links or GTFO. Also no one here has claimed HAART to be a "magic bullet".

MtD

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2011, 04:36:33 PM »
I was dieing when I started ARV's and Im alive now .... you know this is something I will let others speak too because its too fucking painful to discuss this rationally remembering my dead friends who didn't live live long enough to see ARV's .    

At my last count, since 1983, I had 22 close friends die in my home city of London, UK alone. Some didn't survive long enough for ARVs and of those that did, none of them got to their 60s. I wont real off friends in Madrid, Rome, Milan or NYC. And no need to include the four friends who committed suicide within between 3 weeks and 4 years of being diagnosed.
Rarely a day goes by when I don't think of every one of them but that doesn't blind me to the facts, and luckily I have found a way of stopping my emotions get the better of me.


NB: Here is the link to probably the single most important and famous study of ARVs that I referred to earlier:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2806%2969152-6/abstract
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 04:40:42 PM by Matt39 »

Offline aztecan

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2011, 06:40:56 PM »
NB: Here is the link to probably the single most important and famous study of ARVs that I referred to earlier:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2806%2969152-6/abstract

I think referring to this study as the "most important and famous study" is arguable.

Interestingly, this article accompanies the abstract you cited"

HAART's first decade: success brings further challenges.

I would investigate further, but I am not going to pay $31 for a 5-year-old study.

"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2011, 06:54:54 PM »
I think referring to this study as the "most important and famous study" is arguable.

Interestingly, this article accompanies the abstract you cited"

HAART's first decade: success brings further challenges.

I would investigate further, but I am not going to pay $31 for a 5-year-old study.



Well scientifically it is, since it is the only one of its kind and covered the full ten years from the start of combination therapy, and the cohort numbers are the biggest ever. It was big news in 2006 and for several years after both here in Europe and in the USA.
There is no doubt that success can be measured in *prolonging* lives. Unfortunately, that is not the same as saving lives and the benefit of HAART is that when more successful treatment arrives, more people will still be around to benefit from it because of HAART.
But that doesn't detract from the downside to it.
I think it is important for us not to assume that we are not, essentially, the same as people trying to survive *other* illnesses, where 'success' is prolonging life but not necessarily taking us back to the same prospects as before.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 06:56:29 PM by Matt39 »

Offline leatherman

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2011, 09:06:33 PM »
Ah.. sorry about that. Thanks for the correction. Still learning here. Only my 18th dose of Atripla. Just read this and cleared up the difference of non-nukes and protease inhibitors. http://www.thebody.com/content/art878.html
if you're still learning then you really should read through the very thorough and detailed LESSONS section proved here at this very site. just hover over the TREATMENT link on the gray toolbar under the header and then click "Lessons "OR better yet click here. Or click here to read about the HIV life cycle, the types of meds, and what they do.

If you look at the 20,000 cohort study published in the 'Lancet' in 2006, that submitted the outcomes in all cases of the first 10 years of combination therapy to scientific analysis and peer-review, the conclusion was stark and very disappointing:
'"Virological response after starting HAART improved over calendar years, but such improvement has not translated into a decrease in mortality"
So combination therapy has not yet shown it can save lives - the same rate of death was occurring if a little longer down the line than may have otherwise been the case.
that's just stupid. ::) HAART, while not a cure, has obviously sustained life longer than what someone would have had with untreated HIV. That's easily seen by just casual observation of the amount of deaths by AIDS having lessened in the years since HAART. And those lives have not just been prolonged, as immune systems have recovered people have regained health.

As to the same "rate of death", there is no cure for death and the rate of death for humans is 100%, so with or without HAART the rate will always be the same. thankfully (and this is the good part not the bad part as you try to portray) HAART pushes death a little longer down the line.

mikie
who is healthier than he's been in 2 decades and is very glad that HIV meds have postponed his death for those two decades already and is hoping that they keep working like this for a few more years.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2011, 02:25:06 AM »
Well scientifically it is, since it is the only one of its kind and covered the full ten years from the start of combination therapy, and the cohort numbers are the biggest ever. It was big news in 2006 and for several years after both here in Europe and in the USA.
There is no doubt that success can be measured in *prolonging* lives. Unfortunately, that is not the same as saving lives and the benefit of HAART is that when more successful treatment arrives, more people will still be around to benefit from it because of HAART.
But that doesn't detract from the downside to it.
I think it is important for us not to assume that we are not, essentially, the same as people trying to survive *other* illnesses, where 'success' is prolonging life but not necessarily taking us back to the same prospects as before.

This is a muddled statement at best.  You are correct HAART is not a cure and it is not without drawbacks, but it is the best thing out there bar none.  If you are in any way comparing herbal remedies to HAART then I'm afraid you're just point blank wrong.  I think the argument you are attempting to make is Quantity of Years Left vs. Quality of Life, however no herb has been proven to have anywhere near the same efficacy as HAART in either department.

Offline edfu

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2011, 03:54:43 AM »
Rapid aging of T-cells after  HIV infection:

http://www.aidsmap.com/page/1624151/
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2011, 11:53:41 AM »


that's just stupid. ::) HAART, while not a cure, has obviously sustained life longer than what someone would have had with untreated HIV.

It is your own judgement about who you characterise as 'stupid' or not. My own view is that it neither helps nor informs debate.

Having said that, you simply re-iterate exactly what is my own understanding of that 10 year study.
Saving lives is not the same as prolonging them. HAART does not kill HIV at all - it suppresses it in plasma, no where else. That is why the same percentage of people die, and some die as much because of ARVs as the HIV itself.

We all have our own opinions based on the evidence and your opinion is every bit as equal and valid as mine.

Best wishes

Matt

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2011, 12:03:39 PM »
This is a muddled statement at best.

That is your interpretation and you are entitled to it.
It is not mine and I am entitled to that.

You are correct HAART is not a cure and it is not without drawbacks, but it is the best thing out there bar none.  If you are in any way comparing herbal remedies to HAART then I'm afraid you're just point blank wrong.  I think the argument you are attempting to make is Quantity of Years Left vs. Quality of Life, however no herb has been proven to have anywhere near the same efficacy as HAART in either department.

We agree - it is not a cure and has very severe drawbacks, especially as time goes on and I witness that first hand with friends - I don't need evidence for that from internet strangers here to come to that conclusion.

I have not used one word or phrase to 'compare' herbal remedies, or any health supplements, to ARVs in a 'this rather than that', so you are simply mistaken. I consider them *complementary*.

But I do know, for example, that clinical studies have proven that Hibiscus used in conjunction with exercise and diet low in salt, saturated fats and compounds in cured meats, is *as successful* (with no side effects) compared to beta blockers in both lowering BP and reducing bad cholesterol.

Each individual who is battling 'HIV' is *unique* and we all have a right to full information upon which to base a *personal judgement*.

I don't see anything wrong with that and though I understand the palpable fear some clearly have about a mythical 'threat' that poses, it would not be right to try to deny that information.

Best wishes

Matt

Offline leatherman

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2011, 12:37:19 PM »
It is your own judgement about who you characterise as 'stupid' or not. My own view is that it neither helps nor informs debate.

..Saving lives is not the same as prolonging them. HAART does not kill HIV at all - it suppresses it in plasma, no where else. That is why the same percentage of people die, and some die as much because of ARVs as the HIV itself.
pardon me, but I did not call you stupid. I said that your remarks were stupid. This is not an attack on you personally but upon your "conclusions" which do not make sense.

the same percentage of people (100%) are going to die with or without HAART and with or without being infected with HIV. The results of whether HAART is effective or not cannot be based on the percentage of people who die (because everyone dies!) but it has to be based on the amount of prolonged life. It doesn't matter how perfect HAART becomes. or even whether a cure is found, people will still die in the long run, so your criteria of whether a med works or not cannot be based upon whether death happens - it has to be based on the timing of death.

There is no doubt that success can be measured in *prolonging* lives. Unfortunately, that is not the same as saving lives
this is the part of your comments that I think is the most illogical. Prolonging lives (with quality) IS the exact same thing as saving lives. Surely you don't mean "saving lives" as something like a complete cure (although people would still die of old age) or eternal life.

For example, a heart transplant while it will not keep the patient from eventually dying IS a life-saving procedure, in the same way that HAART will not stop eventual death, but does prevent an AIDS death and IS life-saving medicine.

Prolonging life (and the quality of that life) IS the very result to meaure as to whether HAART works. HAART will never cure death, but since it greatly extends life, and often restores some heath in the progress, it IS therefore highly effective. To say otherwise is to not understand that all life ends in death; and that thankfully science and medicine can work against some diseases and prolong life rather than the disease ending life earlier than average.

For example without HAART and antibiotics I would have died in 1998 after PCP. Because of HAART I have lived an additional 13 years so far, and have even regained quite a bit of quality of life from the 90s thanks to the newer meds. That's pretty damn good life-saving results in anyone's opinion.

That is why the same percentage of people die, and some die as much because of ARVs as the HIV itself.
can you please provide some links to studies/reports to show that ARVs (ie treated HIV infection) kill as many people as untreated HIV does? thank you
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2011, 12:47:53 PM »
pardon me, but I did not call you stupid. I said that your remarks were stupid.

It is my opinion that it means the same thing, and therefore equally unhelpful.


it has to be based on the amount of prolonged life.

Not at all, it is the length and quality of life compared to average mortality.

Prolonging lives (with quality) IS the exact same thing as saving lives.

I simply do not agree. 'Quality' varies from person to person, and at ages far far lower. In some there is virtually no 'quality'. I just happen to view HAART through much more circumspect eyes. It doesn't help me (or many people I know living on it after many years) to view it with such rose-tinted, or even in some people's obvious case 'fan boy', spectacles.

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2011, 01:00:06 PM »
It is my opinion that it means the same thing, and therefore equally unhelpful.


Not at all, it is the length and quality of life compared to average mortality.

I simply do not agree. 'Quality' varies from person to person, and at ages far far lower. In some there is virtually no 'quality'. I just happen to view HAART through much more circumspect eyes. It doesn't help me (or many people I know living on it after many years) to view it with such rose-tinted, or even in some people's obvious case 'fan boy', spectacles.


One thing I know is that a true caring person who has lived with this disease a long time would want to keep hope alive for those who just tested positive and still tell the truth about the virus at the same time  , its called compassion . You come here and act like we have never discussed these things before you got here .

Who are you and what do you want from this forum ? 

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2011, 01:01:18 PM »
We agree - it is not a cure and has very severe drawbacks, especially as time goes on and I witness that first hand with friends - I don't need evidence for that from internet strangers here to come to that conclusion.

But I do know, for example, that clinical studies have proven that Hibiscus used in conjunction with exercise and diet low in salt, saturated fats and compounds in cured meats, is *as successful* (with no side effects) compared to beta blockers in both lowering BP and reducing bad cholesterol.

Each individual who is battling 'HIV' is *unique* and we all have a right to full information upon which to base a *personal judgement*.


Citations from recent research please -
While everyone is entitled to their opinion - it is also the responsibility of members with experience to question information which could potentially be dangerous and/or that is not supported with reliable references (thus, the request for citations).

Also, there are many places on the Internet available for people to explore and/or post their opinions - but on this site, you are walking a fine line when you express opinions without reputable research to back up what you say and/or when the opinion expressed could be dangerous to others.

Also, with not quite 30 posts and the tendency for most of those posts to center around promoting unsubstantiated claims by the poster, it can call into question what a person's real motives or agenda may be  in participating on this site.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2011, 01:08:15 PM »
you are walking a fine line when you express opinions without reputable research to back up what you say and/or when the opinion expressed could be dangerous to others.

Also, with not quite 30 posts and the tendency for most of those posts to center around promoting unsubstantiated claims by the poster, it can call into question what a person's real motives or agenda may be  in participating on this site.

Silly threats and paranoia.
This is the *internet*, a very very tiny part of it, and a forum with extremely few frequent posters, so clearly not the place where any real danger exists to anyone.
You sound more like Mubarak when he warned millions on the streets of the 'external dangers from people telling you lies', and Gadafy saying exactly the same while his army mowed them down on the streets.

Get a grip.


You come here and act like we have never discussed these things before you got here .

Who are you and what do you want from this forum ? 

I suggest you reconsider what that implies.

I don't intend sending by airmail confirmation of my diagnosis, date or my life experiences with HIV.

But if you want to exist in a tiny bunker of the 'chosen' ones then you are probably going about it in the most rapidly successful way.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 01:11:59 PM by Matt39 »

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2011, 01:16:09 PM »
Silly threats and paranoia.
This is the *internet*, a very very tiny part of it, and a forum with extremely few frequent posters, so clearly not the place where any real danger exists to anyone.
You sound more like Mubarak when he warned millions on the streets of the 'external dangers from people telling you lies', and Gadafy saying exactly the same while his army mowed them down on the streets.

Get a grip.

And still no reputable research citations?
Your expertise on these matters is duly noted  ::)
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2011, 01:18:37 PM »
And still no reputable research citations?
Your expertise on these matters is duly noted  ::)

And your rather strange attitude speaks volumes.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 01:20:48 PM by Matt39 »

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2011, 01:22:12 PM »
And your rather strange attitude speaks volumes.
I'll take my "rather stange attitude" over a poster making undocumented, unsubstantiated claims which if taken at face value could harm someone --

The lack of one's ability to cite reputable research - when requested to do so by multiple members in various threads on this forum that you have posted on speaks volumes about you as well.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2011, 01:26:05 PM »
I'll take my "rather stange attitude" over a poster making undocumented, unsubstantiated claims which if taken at face value could harm someone --

The lack of one's ability to cite reputable research - when requested to do so by multiple members in various threads on this forum that you have posted on speaks volumes about you as well.

You had links, with links within them too - and I am sure, with your rather large number of posts here, you are not totally incapable of following them or using Google (or maybe 'Bing' is your cup of tea) I don't intend to respond to your unsuccessful attempt at what could easily be construed as a bullying, hectoring, insular and rather sad manner.

Good luck :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 01:29:41 PM by Matt39 »

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2011, 01:30:52 PM »
You had links, with links within them too - and I am sure, with your rather large number of posts here, you are not totally incapable of following them or using Google (or maybe 'Bing' is your cup of tea) I don't intend to respond to your unsuccessful attempt and what could easily be described as bullying and hectoring insular and rather sad manner.

Good luck :)
No bullying here....
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

BTW, ever been to NYC? hope 1 day to go again.
Best of luck to you also.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2011, 01:38:31 PM »
No bullying here....
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

BTW, ever been to NYC? hope 1 day to go again.
Best of luck to you also.

Yes I have been more times than I can remember.

I think you should really try to avoid finding 'demons' to fight in the world of complementary medicine - especially the choices of others. It doesn't diminish your own choices but it might interfere with a calmer and more peaceful existence. Others opinion or choices are no threat to you, only attempts to straitjacket others risks harm to you.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 02:15:00 PM by Matt39 »

Offline leatherman

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2011, 01:46:32 PM »
It is my opinion that it means the same thing, and therefore equally unhelpful.
sorry, those are not the same thing. Very intelligent people can make stupid comments. It happens all the time.

I just happen to view HART through much more circumspect eyes. It doesn't help me (or many people I know living on it after many years) to view it with such rose-tinted, or even in some people's obvious case 'fan boy', spectacles.
I hope those comments aren't directed toward me. I was infected in 85, dx'ed in 92, and have been on many of the HIV meds for nearly 20 years and started with AZT monotherapy. I've even stopped meds 3 times due to quality of life (puking every day of your life is no life), so I totally understand your position; however....

'Quality' varies from person to person, and at ages far far lower. In some there is virtually no 'quality'.
... how about some links to that anecdotal evidence you're posting there? How many is some? If say 75-90% have quality of life too with the meds, then the meds still have to be deemed fairly successful. There is no 100% guarantee and there will always be a small percentage of people for whom meds either do not work or for whom the meds have deleterious side effects. If 5% of the patients do not respond well, that does not make a med un-effective.

By the way, may I ask if you are or how long you have been on meds? And how those are working for you? You seem to have a very low opinion of HAART and so I was wondering if your prejudice is based upon your personal experience.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2011, 01:54:29 PM »
And still no reputable research citations?


Oh, I asked him for one in some thread yesterday and he linked to a youtube clip -- if that's not classic failure on teh intranetz I don't know what else is.  Obviously the education system in the UK isn't what it used to be.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline anniebc

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2011, 02:00:34 PM »
Well if it's on Youtube it has to be correct and accurate information....come on Miss P you should know that.

Aroha
Jan :-*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2011, 02:05:07 PM »
Well if it's on Youtube it has to be correct and accurate information....come on Miss P you should know that.

Aroha
Jan :-*
I still believe that the cure for HIV will be found on Youtube
Afterall, look at all of the singers being discovered that way. ;D

I think when I do my doctoral dissertation I will submit my research citations via IPad with relevant links to Youtube videos.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2011, 02:28:09 PM »
The lack of one's ability to cite reputable research - when requested to do so by multiple members in various threads on this forum that you have posted on speaks volumes about you as well.

I'll help you out with one:
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/milkthistle/ataglance.htm

What the Science Says
Laboratory studies suggest that milk thistle may benefit the liver by protecting and promoting the growth of liver cells, fighting oxidation (a chemical process that can damage cells), and inhibiting inflammation.

Results from clinical trials of milk thistle for liver diseases have been mixed, and most studies have not been rigorously designed. Reviews of the research have concluded that the efficacy of milk thistle against liver disease has not been established, and additional, high-quality trials are needed.

The Hepatitis C Antiviral Long-Term Treatment Against Cirrhosis (HALT) study, sponsored by NIH, found that silymarin use by hepatitis C patients was associated with fewer and milder symptoms of liver disease and somewhat better quality of life, but there was no change in virus activity or liver inflammation.

NCCAM-funded research includes a number of studies on milk thistle for liver disease, such as a phase II trial to better understand the use of milk thistle for chronic hepatitis C. A study cofunded by NCCAM and the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases is examining the effects of milk thistle on people with chronic hepatitis C who have not responded to conventional antiviral treatment, and people with nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (liver disease that occurs in people who drink little or no alcohol).

The National Cancer Institute is studying the effectiveness of silymarin for patients with leukemia who experience chemotherapy-related liver damage. The National Institute of Nursing Research is investigating whether milk thistle is an effective treatment for hepatitis C in people with both hepatitis C and HIV.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2011, 02:34:20 PM »
I think this is still, overall, a very good discussion.

Notwithstanding some of the quite astonishingly childish barbs by some, whose shoes I really wouldn't want to be in. I fear though they keep a very large number of people *away* from this forum, since those barbs serve no useful purpose and those who make them cannot possibly get anything but rather twisted pleasure from them.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2011, 02:39:27 PM »
I think you should really try to avoid finding 'demons' to fight in the world of complementary medicine - especially the choices of others. It doesn't diminish your own choices but it might interfere with a calmer and more peaceful existence. Others opinion or choices are no threat to you, only attempts to straitjacket others risks harm to you.
This is just one example of why research citations were asked for --- and an example of how what some see as complementary medicine can be harmful (i.e. dangerous) -- it's not paranoia, but important to cover all bases when suggesting/recommending/supporting a treatment approach (without including reputable citations) that can, if followed, cause harm.
http://nccam.nih.gov/news/19972000/021000.htm

"It's vital that we understand how drugs and herbal products interact," said Dr. John I. Gallin, Clinical Center director. "This research is important because it demonstrates that a common agent such as St. John's wort may have unsuspected adverse effects on the function of a drug essential to the health of a very vulnerable population."

and

"Many people think that herbal products like St. John's wort are safe, but there can be dangerous interactions when taken with other medications prescribed to treat medical conditions," added Piscitelli. "This study demonstrates how dangerous that interaction can be and how important it is for patients to keep their physician and pharmacist informed about any use of herbal products."




September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Matt39

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2011, 02:46:50 PM »
This is just one example of why research citations were asked for --- and an example of how what some see as complementary medicine can be harmful (i.e. dangerous) -- it's not paranoia, but important to cover all bases when suggesting/recommending/supporting a treatment approach (without including reputable citations) that can, if followed, cause harm.
http://nccam.nih.gov/news/19972000/021000.htm

"It's vital that we understand how drugs and herbal products interact," said Dr. John I. Gallin, Clinical Center director. "This research is important because it demonstrates that a common agent such as St. John's wort may have unsuspected adverse effects on the function of a drug essential to the health of a very vulnerable population."

and

"Many people think that herbal products like St. John's wort are safe, but there can be dangerous interactions when taken with other medications prescribed to treat medical conditions," added Piscitelli. "This study demonstrates how dangerous that interaction can be and how important it is for patients to keep their physician and pharmacist informed about any use of herbal products."






I have already stated a number of times, even if some choose not to read it, that it is both common sense and advisable for anyone receiving any kind of medical treatment to discuss with their physician(s) everything they are taking.

The issue of paranoia is the supposed 'demon' of one kind of treatment that is, at this very moment and for centuries *before* conventional drugs ever existed, being used to successfully maintain health and cure ill-health in the most populous country on this planet.
It is simply 3rd grade mentality to adopt a rather boorish closed mind. You are welcome to it but don't expect me or many others to join in.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Milk Thistle benefits?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2011, 02:56:03 PM »
Centuries before conventional drugs ever existed people were dying in their 30/40's...very few lived on into their 50's.

The issue of paranoia is the supposed 'demon' of one kind of treatment that is, at this very moment and for centuries *before* conventional drugs ever existed, being used to successfully maintain health and cure ill-health in the most populous country on this planet.
It is simply 3rd grade mentality to adopt a rather boorish closed mind. You are welcome to it but don't expect me or many others to join in.

Then stop posting...problem solved, it really is that simple... ::)
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