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Author Topic: Immaculate Infection = WIN  (Read 4305 times)

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Immaculate Infection = WIN
« on: November 12, 2010, 03:12:33 PM »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 03:14:44 PM »
Omg. They're gon' have like thousands of members. 
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline newt

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 03:17:22 PM »
Which bit of the r in safer did the guy not understand? (or, being mean, which bit of the r in bareback don't he want to admit?)

- matt (seen it all a 1,000 times) the newt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Cliff

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 04:01:24 PM »
He should test for other STIs.  I bet he'll have antibodies for lots of things (Hep b, hpv, etc..).  Funny that.

Offline optionstrader

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 04:02:32 PM »
He may have contracted HIV from oral sex.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 04:06:18 PM »
Probably.  That seems to happen pretty frequently around these parts.

Offline john33

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 04:11:11 PM »
(or, being mean, which bit of the r in bareback don't he want to admit?)

- matt (seen it all a 1,000 times) the newt


Probably the same one i denied at first. But this guy is certainly taking it to new lengths

Offline optionstrader

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 04:22:41 PM »
Are you guys saying most guys who say they are positive from oral are lying and most likely had bareback sex?

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 04:27:07 PM »
Are you guys saying most guys who say they are positive from oral are lying and most likely had bareback sex?

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=220.0

read bullet #6
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline optionstrader

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 04:31:15 PM »
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=220.0

read bullet #6

Stop being so nit picky.  I am not asking if oral sex is a mode of transmission.  I am asking if you guys assume people are lying.  There is a difference.

Offline mecch

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 04:37:38 PM »
I still have a question mark on the method of my infection but I don't need to create a website about it nor let it haunt my present and future.

This guy has been HIV+ quite awhile - I wonder if this is an old site still online or is it his axe to grind forever and ever.  If the latter, it's pretty sad.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Joe K

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 04:42:21 PM »
Stop being so nit picky.  I am not asking if oral sex is a mode of transmission.  I am asking if you guys assume people are lying.  There is a difference.

Nobody is calling anyone a liar. The OP site, has guys discussing how they became infected and they admit to engaging in risky behavior and poof, they became poz. If oral transmission was a regular vector of transmission, then billions would have HIV. So when someone claims to only have had oral, we are skeptical because there is almost always risky behavior involved, whether the person wants to admit it or not. We also have a duty to our readers to provide accurate information regarding the true vectors for contracting HIV. As I said, nobody is calling anyone a liar, however, we know how HIV is contracted and it is not through oral sex.

So you tell me. How would you respond to the thousands who swear they got HIV through oral sex?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 04:48:37 PM by killfoile »

Offline Ann

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 04:45:35 PM »
Stop being so nit picky.  I am not asking if oral sex is a mode of transmission.  I am asking if you guys assume people are lying.  There is a difference.

It doesn't matter. I asked you in your thread in Am I Infected to read that forum's Welcome thread and if you don't want to follow our rules, then there's a simple solution. You get banned. Bye!

Ann
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 04:48:43 PM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline odyssey

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2010, 05:24:44 PM »
Looks like another poor soul in denial of their high risk activity and blaming it on activities known NOT to transmit HIV. Sad.
01/09/09- diagnosed HIV+
01/16/09   CD4-425    22%  VL- 32,415
11/09- started Reyetaz/Norvir/Truvada
03/10- stopped R/N/T
10/18/11   CD4- 328   20%  VL- 84,000
10/25/11   CD4- 386   22%
10/28/11- start Truvada/Reyetaz/Norvir
12/30/11  CD4- 523  29%
03/08/12  CD4- 503  31%  VL 57
07/02/12  CD4- 897  43%
08/31/12  CD4- 745  39%
12/27/12  CD4- 884  40%
03/28/13  CD4- 819  39%
07/19/13  CD4- 739  40%
10/17/13  CD4- 535  36%
01/16/14  CD4- 743  43%

02/14- switched from R/N/T to Tivicay/Epzicom because of CKD 3 suspected from tenofovir.

03/14- switched back to R/N/T due to severe nausea and inability to eat on T/E.
 
04/01/14 CD4- 898  42%   VL-

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2010, 06:13:58 PM »
I kid you not! ;D

http://www.immaculateinfection.com/

Fuck. I knew I should have reserved this domain name when I had the chance.

MtD

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2010, 06:15:41 PM »
Frankly, I don't care what anyone claims. I am ALWAYS skeptical when people constantly discuss and debate their immaculate infection, as though they are an "innocent victim" and do not deserve HIV. The implication in that conversation is loud and it is clear.

I hold as an example of positive thinking our own Jan, who was infected through her profession as a nurse, yet does not mention it at all in conversation nor in discussions regarding transmission. And at the risk of putting words in her mouth (or translating her thoughts), she certainly does not hold a hierarchy of persons with HIV - which is far more than the most vociferous members of the IA club with whom I have had the dishonor of discourse.

and yes, people lie. It is one of the first things we learn as infants. It is a survival tool. We lie to ourselves. We lie to others. some lies are benign. Some let us get through the day without flinging ourselves out a window or shooting enough heroin to kill a pony. Some of us lie so that our beloved partners will make love to us, despite having put on thirty pounds since August.

Some of us have histories of drug and alcohol use to the extent that we do not honestly recall to any credible degree how we got here, from a viral standpoint. Others experience cognitive dissonance, which might save our sanity here and there.

I am absolutely certain how I get infected. I am also honest enough to admit that in the last eighteen years of having HIV I have lied, through commission or omission, about my status. I have lied to myself about damage I was doing to my body, or allowing to be done by others. My goal nowadays is to be as honest as I can, to be as honorable as I am able, and to forgive myself for my lapses. I cannot rewrite the past, but I can certainly have a hand in creating my future.

I am not an innocent victim. I am not a victim at all. But I respect the science behind HIV to know that I am not at liberty to pick and choose which parts of the science to disregard and which to integrate. When I do not adhere to my meds, I do so knowing and accepting the risks. When I have unprotected sex, I do so knowing the risks. When I drink, or abuse my body, I do so knowing the risks. That same science teaches me the transmission routes for the virus. I cannot imagine the cognitive dissonance necessary to accept the mechanisms of HIV and the meds used to treat it, yet disregard the mechanisms by which it moves from person to person.

I am sure I have enough cognitive dissonance in other areas to atone for this irritating clarity, this scientific fundamentalism. I only hope the people who love me are able to point out these things, and that I am in a place to listen.

I actually felt bad for the Worried Well who posted here. He is angry and confused, and is blaming everyone but himself for his actions. People who do that, in my experience, tend to have a lot of bad things happen to them. Once we realize that we are the common denominator in our lives, it is both empowering and enlightening. I hope that poor (very young) guy finds that power before it is too late.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2010, 07:00:54 PM »
As someone whose origin of infection is still somewhat of a mystery, I'm curious as to why "immaculate infectees" are allowed to be singled out over others as deserving ridicule. 
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2010, 07:40:20 PM »
I do not ridicule anyone on this forum. If you could be specific as to the commentary to which you refer, I am certain that the offending poster can respond.

And I have zero issues with the specifics of anyone's infection being a mystery.

I have had blackouts during my worst nights when I was completely out of control. I think I recall my actions, but I will likely never know. I do not think I put others at risk, but I will never know. In my case, I was crazy over my Dad's death and self-medicating with all the booze I could shovel down. An inelegant solution to an inelegant situation, assuredly.

I might have done and said some dreadful things, but I will not likely ever know. As time moves on past those events from years ago, I have gotten okay with that. I try not to replicate that situation, but if and when my Mom dies before I do, I cannot promise anything.

Consciousness peers, some say, from a center which it cannot see. This is why I am far more comfortable with the subjective eye of scientific reason as evidenced by first tier peer review with reliably replicated results, rather than anecdotal evidence.

Personally, I do not, on these forums, ridicule highly unlikely stories of infection. I do, however, doubt them. And because many worried well people peruse these forums, I am often torn as to whether I should say anything or not - to say nothing lends credibility to statements that, in turn, leeches credibility from the transmission section of these very forums. Which in turn, I believe, casts doubt upon the very framework that this site relies upon for medical information and knowledge dissemination.

If I have any agenda at all, that is it.

Of course, when I say something, posters feel attacked and accused, which is not my intent. as a result, I have traded the ability and honor to post and assist in the AM I INFECTED forum for the ability to reveal and discuss most of the very real and vulnerable things going on in my own infection. I have traded the support section of this site for the scientific accuracy I hold in such high regard.

I am very lucky in that I have support and understanding from other LTS folks here and elsewhere, but please don't think that my assertions do not come at a great personal price.

Also, my time here on the forums has made it clear that, at any given moment, we usually have more than a couple of members who are not who they claim to be.

Some are not HIV positive. Some are denialists with the agenda of destroying the site from within. Some spoof their ip addresses and post under multiple identities. Some are just bored internet troll types. And these are just examples of the ones who have been brought to the forum's attention.

Ann is beyond gifted at figuring many of these things out, but the technology will never, I think, overtake the ability of people to deceive.

This site errs on the side of trust, as it should - but also at it's peril.

Those of us who fight for the credibility of this site are fighting to keep it a place where people can receive real support and credible information - information that could well be the difference between health and sickness, life and death. A few ruffled feathers is, I think, worth that.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline smiteler

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2010, 08:25:55 PM »
i wouldn't be suprised if my ex gf is  a member  ::)

Offline komnaes

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2010, 03:22:54 AM »
Interestingly, the guy did conceded the following:

"My conclusion is either that low risk activities aren't that low risk, I was infected intentionally, or a condom broke without me detecting it. All of these options I would consider rare and unfortunate."
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2010, 09:17:49 AM »
I have little interest in how people became infected, since it is really a moot point. After all these years of HIV it is unlikely that some new transmission vector is going to be discovered and if so it will need to be proven with more than anecdotal evidence. In this case this guy had sex-- that's all I need to know. As Newt pointed out it is safeR sex and there are no guarantees.

The only problem I see with immaculate infection is some people cannot move beyond the "WHY ME?!" phase without some explanation THEY find acceptable.

Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2010, 12:33:04 PM »
Lots of people who are infected never move beyond the "why me" phase.  Surely a good chunk of the disproprorionate share of rape victims and individuals who insist they were misled by non-monagamous partners are AT LEAST as intractable as those who have the intellectual honesty to admit that they drove themselves to the bathhouse, spread their asscheeks and went to town with only a few molecules of latex between them and death.  The fact that we're sticklers for the final point doesn't mean that we're any more deserving of ridicule or any less deserving of our fates than anyone else.  What would you consider a healthier outlet for people who honestly don't recall where they screwed up?  Urban legends about malicious infectors?   

You're probably technically correct that there AREN'T additional vectors of transmission.  Latex is shown to be an effective means of stopping the virus, though my gut instinct is that there are more oral transmissions than anyone cares to admit.  If we read between the lines, what these stories tell us is that human sexual behavior isn't...and cannot reasonably be expected to be...as precisely choreographed as the motions of an operating theater.  The farcical phrase "safer sex" is always stated with a wink and a nod, as we're all supposed to believe that the "r" is added for legal purposes alone.  A more honest understanding of the topic would be that no time are humans perfect, and if the only thing standing between you and exposure is your ability to roll on a fresh condom in the heat of the moment, you're gonna fuck up sooner or later.  Fucking, and fucking up, are human traits, and prevention strategies which rely exclusively on condoms set people up to fail. 

These stories also point to facts which need not rely upon the existence of alternate vectors of transmission to explain them.  Its been suggested that in some people, HIV has a period of extended dormancy prior to the acute infection.  This is certainly not the scientific consensus, but might explain a lot of supposed immaculate infections.  I'd love to see some sort of investigation into the topic.  Biological or sociological investigations might reveal some interesting facts.  As long as we respond to demands that we sit down and shut up, its probably not going to happen.  This takes away from our collective understanding of the virus, and humanity is worse for the silence.         

As for the continued fixation on the topic, its because its IMMENSELY frusterating to hear phrases like "you'll need to start practicing safer sex" roll off the tongues of educators and other pozzies, and this is a phrase which is repeated ad-nauseum.  Its an oversimplification, and one which only reinforces a stereotype that pozzies are reckless sex addicts and drug fiends who blow their futures for a night of fun on bareback websites, or thought that they were invincible.  Admitting the capricious nature of ALL humans would go a long ways towards shattering the victim/whore dichotomy which persists amongst those infected with HIV.  People don't fixate on it any more than one would fixate on any other odd life-altering mystery. 

I'm probably just opening myself up for more ridicule here, but I feel topics like this need to be treated with at least as much dignity as we extend to the 90% of people who insist they got it from "just one mistake", "my lying ex" or homosexual rape in a civil setting.  Threads like these...where we collectively ridicule others who are infected...make me almost as sad as my own "immaculate infection".         
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline Cliff

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2010, 12:47:57 PM »
Mostly serious responses here. 

Nevertheless, if you consider yourself immaculate (i.e., clean and perfect) and yet still manage to become HIV positive, sounds like you're the one ridiculing everyone else...you know, those dirty and imperfect folks who have, unlike you, rightly become infected.

Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2010, 01:36:10 PM »
I don't think the majority of people who consider themselves to be cases of "immaculate infection" honestly think they are "immaculate" or that other pozzies are "dirty".  This is a phrase intended to belittle the mindset of those who are vocal about an uncertain avenues of transmission.  It falsely implies an inability to take ownership of your behavior.  Unfortunantly, it has become the preferred description for the phenmomen.  Ironically, MOST immaculate infectees I've read about, and the one other I've met in real life, are actually MORE forthcoming about our role in infection.  Most of us admit knowingly engaging in sex with partners of unknown or positive status (here's another http://www.thebody.com/content/art59128.html).  By and large, I've noticed that we tend to have considered ourselves more educated about transmission prior to our infection. 

I personally see a lot more intellectual honesty in the claim "I'm still certain I did everything right" than a lot of the other descriptions that persist, or acquiescence towards a more socially accepted means of transmission.           
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline aztecan

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2010, 02:14:45 PM »
Anyone who cannot move beyond the "why me" phase is destined to be a perpetual victim.

It is really irrelevant how someone was infected.

However, to hint some people acquired the bug "innocently" does indeed imply that others deserved to be infected.

Also, to state someone is more intellectually honest  because they say they are positive even though "I'm still certain I did everything right" is again casting dispersions on those who are up front about their activity by implying that what others did was wrong.

I don't find this to be intellectually honest.

Regardless of how it got there, you have HIV. You (and I mean each of you) must accept the virus as a part of you now.

That is really all that matters.

The past cannot be changed. If someone discovers a way to do so, let me know. There are a few elections I want to sway.

HUGS,

Mark

« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 02:23:00 PM by aztecan »
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2010, 02:23:29 PM »
Anyone who cannot move beyond the "why me" phase is destined to be a perpetual victim.


word



The past cannot be changed. If someone discovers a way to do so, let me know. There are a few elections I want to sway.


Time travel.  Ah, the wonderful, fabulous, and evil things that I would do.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2010, 02:27:38 PM »
However one becomes infected to really deal with it there must be acceptance of how one acquired it, even if that is accepting that you will never know. Whether it was rape, blood transfusion, birth, bath house, condom broke, oral sex... each person is going to have to deal with their individual circumstances. The whole idea of judging and categorizing people by how they acquired HIV is just, well, bullshit is the only word that comes to mind. That is why I care little how people became infected and prefer to focus more on how they are dealing with it.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2010, 03:35:17 PM »
Jonathon, GSO and Mark...great posts, I just hope now that they have beed written those who need too will read them and understand the message you are giving them, don't be the perpetual victim, live life and deal with it, it's the only way forward, don't spend your life wondering "Why me" it will destroy you.

Hugs to the 3 of you
Jan :-*
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Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2010, 03:55:01 PM »
Anyone who cannot move beyond the "why me" phase is destined to be a perpetual victim.

It is really irrelevant how someone was infected.

However, to hint some people acquired the bug "innocently" does indeed imply that others deserved to be infected.

Also, to state someone is more intellectually honest  because they say they are positive even though "I'm still certain I did everything right" is again casting dispersions on those who are up front about their activity by implying that what others did was wrong.

I don't find this to be intellectually honest.

Regardless of how it got there, you have HIV. You (and I mean each of you) must accept the virus as a part of you now.

That is really all that matters.

The past cannot be changed. If someone discovers a way to do so, let me know. There are a few elections I want to sway.

HUGS,

Mark




Okay, I write about three chapters to try and express what you so deftly captured in that single post. That's precisely what I have been attempting to convey.

This disease is too hard on the body and the soul to give much allowance for perpetuating victim status.

I am not better than Jan because we got HIV through drastically different means, and I daresay she has never belittled me for my transmission vector. Is it an age thing? Are we Olds less likely to engage in that crap? Or is it having come through the true horrors of the pandemic, seeing - sometimes holding - our friends and partners while they wither, suffer, and die? Maybe that changes a person.

The only reason I remain a terrier about transmission vector science (which, if anyone ever bothered to read my posts RE: the most recent studies, have really, SERIOUSLY evolved sine, well, people stopped dying right away) is because the "immaculate infection"  uncertainty fuels the same stigma that I and others like me fought tooth and nail in the 90s.

We could not be doctors or nurses. We could not work with children, or food. We were denied simple touch when we were sick, and certainly intimacy was out of the question. There were serious talks about quarantining HV positive people.

And in some pockets of this country, and in areas of this planet, those horrific stigmatizing viewpoints still hold true. Moreso when people say, with raised eyebrows, "well, we REALLY don't know ALL the ways HIV can be transmitted..."

Such statements are still used to avoid HIV positive people, to shun them as friends, and certainly to disregard them as intimate partners. And that is absurd.

Oral sex remains one of the most universally practiced unsafe sexual encounters in the world. It transcends age and gender and education. Were it a reliably viable means of HIV transmission, this would be reflected in the epidemiology. Over time, and given the wealth of long-term studies of serodiscordant couples, we know that, at the most conservative, receptive fellatio may, under rare circumstances, lad to HIv infection - and even that concession comes with zero evidence beyond the anecdotal.

back in the 1990s, when I was most active in my local ASO prevention program, they were already abandoning dental dams and related outreach, along with passing out flavored condoms for oral sex. They were doing it for two reasons: The science was steadily supporting anal and vaginal sex, along with sharing IV drug needles, as the only activity that posed any real threat for HIV infection.

The studies are simply out there, if anyone wants to read them. And yes, there are also studies that are ten plus years old, which rely solely on patient report after infection, that say oral sex is a huge risk. But the in vitro and in vivo studies done post-1995 have not borne that out. If anything, they support the notion that patient report, for a myriad of psychological reasons, is unreliable.

And to the notion that drinking and drug use - and the related behaviors which are often as a result - play an insignificant role in claims of non-traditional HIV transmission are certainly not borne out on this forum.

But again, I have written way too much. Shit, I am boring myself. and obviously someone will be mad at me for my interpretation of the science. At least I am in the company of people I respect, so if I end up totally off base, then I will have someone to commiserate with.

I do think there is a reason that, despite the statement in the forum's description, the JUST TESTED forum does not have a huge amount of LTS input. A lot of what we know, people really, REALLY do not want to hear. And many of us are too tired of fighting.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline Joe K

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2010, 04:08:31 PM »
I don't think the majority of people who consider themselves to be cases of "immaculate infection" honestly think they are "immaculate" or that other pozzies are "dirty".  This is a phrase intended to belittle the mindset of those who are vocal about an uncertain avenues of transmission.  It falsely implies an inability to take ownership of your behavior.  Unfortunantly, it has become the preferred description for the phenmomen.  Ironically, MOST immaculate infectees I've read about, and the one other I've met in real life, are actually MORE forthcoming about our role in infection.  Most of us admit knowingly engaging in sex with partners of unknown or positive status (here's another http://www.thebody.com/content/art59128.html).  By and large, I've noticed that we tend to have considered ourselves more educated about transmission prior to our infection. 

I personally see a lot more intellectual honesty in the claim "I'm still certain I did everything right" than a lot of the other descriptions that persist, or acquiescence towards a more socially accepted means of transmission.           

I hope you do not think that many of us do not understand your feelings, it is just that we have been having this discussion for decades. Safer sex guidelines are simply that, what science tells us is the safest way possible, to engage in intimate bodily contact. That same science identified the vector routes of HIV and nobody is denying that extraordinary situation may not arise, but science tells us how and why you become infected. Now given what we know, how would you propose we frame prevention messages, based on what we know, or on how some people feel?

I believe the issue becomes difficult for someone who truly believes they did everything possible to prevent infection, but at some point... it no longer matters and that is the real message here. If you are going to live with HIV, at some point, you need to just accept your status and move on. Even if we were to agree that your infection was exceptionally unique, other that a scientific interest, how would it change your status? Would it change how you feel about yourself? Your infection? Your part in becoming infected?

I empathize with your feelings, but there is absolutely nothing you can do, to change your status, so why is how others perceive your infection so important to you?

Offline mecch

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2010, 05:50:50 PM »
Safer sex guidelines prevented my infection for 25 years. So if there is some rare method I was infected, its neither here nor there.  Or, if I still don't see the clear risk, same end, who cares.  Just gotta move on.  

I think the overall message is A Virus has no Morals so dont apply morals about your behaviour to others with the virus.  All HIV+ are in the same fucking boat man.  

I dont feel that safer sex guidelines need to change whatsoever.  

If someone is the rare case of unknown risk and infection - that's the crap shoot man.

I cut my leg to the bone once skiing, with the edge of my skis, what were the chances of that?  Shit happens.  Glad it didnt cut off my leg. Happy there is HAART.  
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 05:53:25 PM by mecch »
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2010, 06:22:49 PM »
Safer sex guidelines prevented my infection for 25 years. So if there is some rare method I was infected, its neither here nor there.

Got to agree witcha there.  For over sixteen years I sucked more dick than Jenna Jameson (even while in sero-discordant relationships with two different pozzums), adhered to safer guidelines as far as penetrative sex (whether with males or females; whether as a top or bottom) and I remained uninfected; once caution and condoms were thrown to the wind the HIV found its way into my bloodstream.  

I don't feel like minimizing anybody's experience, or to make feel anyone badly for that matter; I just don't subscribe to the Immaculate Infection School of Thought.  In the end what matters is the fact that we share a status, not how somebody got their own bug.

Toodles.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline anniebc

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2010, 02:02:37 AM »

I am not better than Jan because we got HIV through drastically different means, and I daresay she has never belittled me for my transmission.

This awful virus that we all have in common doesn't know how we were infected, and neither does it care, it treats each and everyone one of us the same ..HIV does not discriminate.

When you insist on becoming the perpetual victim, or you continue to cry "why me" you may as well just give yourself up to the virus, because what you are doing is allowing this virus to control you..for the sake of your health ..don't do that...wake up and take charge..I know this is not easy and it won't happen overnight, but you owe it to yourself to try.

Hugs
Jan :-*
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2010, 02:58:22 AM »
If this guy is recalling all his sexual activities accurately and always used a condom, then I would point to those few times when guys were poking around back there with one going in a little.  I suppose it is possible he got it via oral.  I don't think anyone here says that is absolutely impossible, right?  I would still point to those knocks on his back door with one opening the door without wiping his shoes or putting those shoe protectors on like the cableman wears.  That is if he is accurately remembering that he was always safe with condoms.

I recently mentioned how my guy was playing ding-dong ditch with no intention of coming inside (coming, not cumming).  Well, I guess the suction of the door opening pulled him inside a little.  His head just barely peaked inside.  It does worry me and he should get tested again.  Anyone sick of the door analogy yet?

Offline Theyer

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2010, 07:18:14 PM »
i think I,m pregnant.
t
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2010, 07:20:52 PM »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2010, 01:09:18 AM »
I think what makes Jan so amazing, is she never pretends that she is better than anyone due to the fact that she got this  stupid virus through transfusion.

A lot of people, and society in general, would make Jan out to be an "innocent victim" who didn't deserve to in in such perverse company.  Jan would never do that - she is a class act and a wonderful lady. 

Pete

Offline BT65

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Re: Immaculate Infection = WIN
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2010, 04:36:54 AM »
I think what makes Jan so amazing, is she never pretends that she is better than anyone due to the fact that she got this  stupid virus through transfusion.
A lot of people, and society in general, would make Jan out to be an "innocent victim" who didn't deserve to in in such perverse company.  Jan would never do that - she is a class act and a wonderful lady. 

Pete

I believe she got the virus via a needle stick.  Jan can correct me if I'm wrong.  And you're right, Pete, she is a class act.  I have a lot of respect and admiration for Jan.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

 


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