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Author Topic: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together  (Read 6844 times)

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Offline Andy Velez

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Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« on: September 03, 2006, 06:19:34 PM »
The one thought about which there seems to be unanimity is there will be more AM get-togethers. The questions are about where and what kind of format. Regional? International? In one year? In two years? What should it include? Should there be a fashion show? A Shirley Temple lookalike contest? A talent show for AM3 IDOL? An Albert Schweitzer lookalike contest? Door prizes? etc. etc.   

Let's hear thoughts and ideas about where it should be and what the next gathering should include.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 08:38:18 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline Lis

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2006, 06:45:28 PM »
my vote....

a gathering of people with AIDS that look like Albert Sweitzer

or a gathering of folks that just want to love and learn,,

lisbeth
poz 1986....

Offline Cliff

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2006, 07:37:20 PM »
My initial thoughts, but would like to hear from others...

Hosting

Hold AMG in the USA in 07.  That will present some issues for international travelers, but with proper planning and guidance I think we can work around those issues.  Canada is a beautiful country (with fantastic hosts), but we will quickly run out of Canadian cities to visit, (though Vancouver is quite beautiful).  Also having it in Canada does make air travel a little more inconvenient (transfers) and more expensive.  Plus I believe those of us who came from overseas all had to go through the US anyway, so I don't think having it in Canada really prevented us from avoiding the US HIV ban.

Social Events (of course this is impacted by the location/city chosen)

- river rafting, canoeing
- hot air balloon rides
- hiking/biking/riding (I know there is a limit to the mobility of some members, so we will need to make special accomodations to ensure everyone has an opportunity to participate)
- Picnic (at a beach or park), BBQ
- A night out of dining (there's a specific name for this but it escapes me at the moment).  We do this a lot at work.  You start out at one restaurant and have appetizers and cocktails.  You go to another restaurant and have your main course.  You then follow-up at a final restaurant and have dessert and cocktails.
- Bowling night
- A day at the park (okay probably the same thing as a Picnic)
- Some kind of sports competition (volleyball, basketball or flag football)  :o
- Golf (okay maybe minature golf)
- Horseback riding
- A day at the themepark (can be expensive though), riding rides and seeing folks puke (and not have HIV as the cause for once)

Workshop (issue is how do you pay for this, considering the need to book large rooms to hold these events)

- HIV treatment seminar (T.H. presentation)
- Yoga stuff (I've never done it before, so I have no idea what it entails)
- Body therapy (coping with being positive and living in a demanding world)

Offline Basquo

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2006, 07:57:22 PM »
I've been staying out of most of the discussions, mostly because Montreal exceeded my expectations and I'm driving my friends and office mates crazy with my chatter about it BECAUSE I HAD A BLAST, but here goes.

I like Cliff's ideas above.  I'm trying to think of American cities where there's lots to do, and where we could stay near the gay area but not necessarily in it.  So far I've come up with Chicago, San Francisco and Houston (although I would prefer a Houston gathering in the autumn, as one of Montreal's great attractions for me was escaping the Texas summer.) I also like Moffie's (and others') suggestion of a more secluded destination, where we could wallow in mudbaths and stare at the Big Sky.

As far as seminars and other education, I'm not opposed to a few more; it gives a little more structure for those who desire that, or we could have several in one day (followed by a day in mudbaths.)  I'd be willing to give a presentation on HIPAA Privacy and Security, since that's a big part of my profession, but that would probably be of little interest to the international attendees.

So that's my two loonies' worth.

Offline Robert

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2006, 11:36:17 PM »
well I nominate San Francisco.

1:  It's on the West Coast.  The last 2 Gatherings have been on the East Coast.  Definitely something in the Mid West or on the West Coast.

2:   It's Hetero friendly.  There is North Beach, home of Jack Kerouac, Alan Ginsburg and the Beat Generation; City Lights Book Store. (an incredible walking tour right there).  There is China Town, a true microcosm of the real thing with the densest population in the state.  There is Alcatraz (IN THE BAY)  Berkeley (ACROSS THE BAY) (home of Mario Savio and the Free SPeech movement (1964))).  Cable cars.  Trolley cars.  Union Square.

3:  It's gay friendly.  The Castro.  Polk Street.  South of Market.  Buena Vista Park.

4:  Transportation around the city is EASY.  There is BART that goes under the Bay.  There is MUNI which goes above and below the ground all around the city, from  The Castro down Market to the Ferry Building.

5:  Flights are relatively cheap.  Oakland airport is usually the cheapest to fly into and BART, the subway, will bring you from the airport to S.F.

6:  Not sure about housing, but if it is significantly cheaper we can always pick Oakland as our home base.  Like I said, it's right across the bay and very accessible.

7:  Summers are very, very cool.  This could be downside.  If you're looking for a warm weather destination, then SF would be best in the fall (SEPT/OCT).  As Mark Twin is reputed to have said, "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco."

One more thing.  For speakers, if we want them, we should only use "in-house" so to speak.  There is such a variety of people and experiences here at AidsMeds we should stick with what we got.

So that's my nomination.  I would suggest Aug or Sept.

I second the nomination for Ric and Anne as AMG Coordinators.

Edited to add:  For the outdoor enthusiasts, there is the Russian River, about 2 hours N. where we can raft or swim in the river.  For the wine connoisseurs, there is Napa Valley and the Mud Baths also about 2 hours north.

robert

« Last Edit: September 03, 2006, 11:42:51 PM by Robert »
..........

Offline manchesteruk

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2006, 05:19:43 PM »
I definately hope to attend next year theres been a few good venue suggestions this year I liked the sound of Chicago i've always wanted to go there and San Francisco.  Ideally though no where too hot i'm British and i'm useless in really hot weather!  As for events Tim Horns presentation sounded really interesting so would like to maybe see something like that.  Other than that i'm with the opinion we wouldnt need any guest speakers there is such a wealth of knowledge on these forums I think some group discussions on certain topics would be really interesting.  As for the other activities I think there will too many people attending next year to plan everything maybe arrange something one night with a free night the next etc.
Diagnosed 11/05

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Offline cmhjeff

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2006, 05:30:57 PM »
I like Moffie's idea from a previous thread. A train thru the Grand Canyon sounds breath taking. Niagara Falls would be fun. There is a lot to see there.

Offline MSPspud

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2006, 10:22:15 AM »
While I didn't go to the last two events (conflicts with other plans), I would like to attend one eventually.  I would love to see Chicago in the mix of places!  It's cheap to fly to from just about anywhere, has great transport and a mix of things to do for gay and straight.  I think Chicago far surpasses SF for balance!

Offline MSPspud

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2006, 10:35:03 AM »
Also (this is a biggie for me at least)....

Can we please do an event in September when travel is less conflicting, cheaper and easier?  I think August was difficult for more than just me.

Offline carousel

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2006, 11:30:49 AM »
.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 12:25:38 PM by carousel »

Offline ademas

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2006, 01:18:43 PM »
What the hell...I'll throw a suggestion out:

Portland, OR is a gorgeous city.
It's an hour to the Columbia River Gorge, Multnomah Falls, Rooster Rock State Park (and nude beach... :o), or the Mt. Hood National Forest, and under 90 minutes to the Oregon coast.  There's Oxbow park and rafting on the Sandy River. 
The city itself has some beatiful parks, and a wonderful downtown area and nightlife, both gay and straight.

Offline RAB

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2006, 08:14:29 PM »
I'm open to just about anything I suppose.

My first and most important desire would be that the gathering comes West, only because as Robert mentioned, we have gone East for the first two years.

I think it should absolutely remain an annual event. 

The other thing I would like is that we continue to plan the gathering based upon it being primarily a social thing.  The members who desire to have more structured like events, conference activities, seminars, and the such, could easily incorporate that  into the overall gathering.  As Minh mentioned, the idea would be that nothing is mandatory, and attendees could pick and chose what they wanted.  I think that offers the best of both worlds. 

Finally, I would hope that the final structure or whatever you want to call it, doesn't become complicated, and that it is driven by the members.  We've only done this twice before.  Just as we learned from Toronto, so too we learned from Montreal.  We aren't operating with a specific road map and there are bound to be difficulties with each gathering as we move forward, much of this we are making up as we go along (frankly I don't think that's a bad thing).

I'm hopeful that rather than stepping back and taking a wait and see attitude (although I can certainly understand that response) everyone would continue to participate in this discussion.

We have started something here (AMG) that despite some growing pains, is ours

We have the opportunity to build on that by remaining involved and focusing on the "big" picture.

Ultimately the success of AMG wasn't determined by the where.  It wasn't determined by the what.  It was measured by the reactions of those who took a chance and came to either gathering.

Ultimately, personally, fundamentally, it was about all of us, gathering together.  Sharing time.  Feeling comfortable. Laughing.  Making new friends.  Socializing.

The real power, the truly important outcome,  is what happened underneath the surface.  The feeling of enrichment, the confidence of being ourselves amongst others who were positive too, the sense that no matter what, no matter where, no matter when, we could look each and every other person in the eyes and say:

"It's O.K.  I understand.  I'm positive too."

That's the power of AMG

RAB




Offline livingpositively

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2006, 08:57:48 PM »
Ok, I'll put my two cents in.  I have really just been lurking on "these" threads thus far.

I honestly don't care where the next AMG is - although I think out of fairness it should be at least more in the "center".  But sometimes we have to do what's better for the majority.  I will be there regardless if I have anything to say about it.   :D  I had a truly fantastic time in Montreal.  I can't say it exceeded my expectations, because I don't think I really had any expectations.  I just wanted to go to a beautiful city (which I already knew Montreal to be) and meet a group of beautiful and amazing people (which I suspected "them" to be).  The rest was ALL BONUS.  I figure, at this point, I can only get to know people better - hopefully get to spend more time with those that I didn't spend a lot of time with this year, etc etc.

I think it's a fine idea to have a more "structured" or "conference-y" atmosphere for those who want that.  I equally think that the social espect is VERY important.  It's called a "Gathering" for a reason - even if not an intended meaning - it's implied.

I would also "vote" to have it every year.  Why?  I don't know...just cuz.   :)  It's more fun that way.

ok, that might have been three cents worth.  I'm done

Shane
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Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2006, 01:49:27 AM »
I like the San Francisco idea although I'd like to also nominate Seattle, WA, around August. The weather is cool and gorgeous. (I'm with Creighton. I want to AVOID a Texas Summer.) I've always done my vacationing in Seattle around that time of year. IF it rains, it is usually only for an hour or two in the afternoon, and then the sun is out for the rest of the day.

It is a straight and gay friendly city. (The gay area being Capital Hill and other areas.)

Seattle-Tacoma Airport is not far, and there is transportation from the Airport into the city via Shuttle. There is public transportation (bus) which is inexpensive.

Attractions include but are not limited to: Starbucks, Pike's Place Market, the Pier, Wolfgang Puck shops, Hiking (Mt. Rainier), Space Needle, Safeco Field (Mariners), Underground Tour, Pacific Science Center, Washington Park Arboretum, Bruce and Brandon Lee's Grave (for those inclined, friggin' gorgeous cemetary btw), Waterfall Gardens, Woodland Park Zoo, and lots more.

Just a thought.
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

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Offline anniebc

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2006, 07:41:29 PM »
This is rather difficult for me..I have never been to the States (except for LA airport and an over night stay in a cheap hotel) and the only places I have really ever wanted to see are Las Vagas and the Grand Canyon, but I know that is something I will have to plan on my own.

The last two AMG's I have attended have cost me a lot of money, not to mention about a 100 hours to get there (ok slight exageration it took me 30 hours)..and please don't get me wrong, it was worth every cent spent and every hour spent getting there..but with that in mind I would have to say that somewhere on the West coast would be a little closer, a little cheaper and certainly better for me.

I know the whole idea of the AMG's is to meet all our forum family,to be able to sit down and talk to them, to see their smiles and to form friendships, and the destination really shouldn't be a problem.. but I have to be realistic about the cost and the the time it takes me to get there..God knows I'm not getting any younger.. :D.

So, if we decide on the States then anywhere on the West Coast would be my suggestion.

Hugs
Jan :-*





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Offline fearless

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2006, 08:13:37 PM »
I'm really keen on San Francisco for the reasons mentioned and other selfish ones.

San Francisco is truly a great city and, I believe, North America's most cosmopolitan. I find most other North American cities aggressive and a little frightening - just me I know. Architecturally, beautiful; culturally, relaxed and accepting. There are so many things to do there and so much just nearby, as Robert said.

And, as Jan said for us folk living in the south western pacific, San Fran is the cheapest and most direct destination.
September would be perfect, weather is nice and flights are relatively cheap.
For people like Jan who are keen on the Grand Canyon and/or Las Vegas it would be easy to plan a post gathering trip to those destinations. I'd love to visit both again post gathering but with a smaller group of like minded souls who wished to gamble  :o and then unwind totally in the Grand Canyon. It could/would be something I would organise totally separately to the gatherings. I also have a few friends on the West Coast that I'd like to spend some time with. For me, I would make it a three or four week adventure. I'm sidetracking, so back to the gathering.

As far as us foreigners getting into the States, can I be bold and suggest that if we are serious about a US destination that our US friends consider stockpiling extra medications for us foreigners to 'borrow' while we are there. I have a friend in LA on the same meds as me who has promised me this for when I visit. I'm simply not prepared to try and smuggle my meds into the US, not in this day and age - I'm likely to end up in Guatanamo Bay or something  :o.

For the Gathering itself, I am mainly interested in a social gathering. I have no issue at all with structured workshops and the like. Both can co-exist quite easily and everyone can chose to do what they want. But I do think there should be a couple of 'all-in' things like the meet and greet or a dinner etc. Given the possible size of any future gathering, some thought perhaps should be given in finding a way to make it easy for as many people as possible to get to know each other at that event - you know, some icebreakers etc.

Just my thoughts.

Steve.

ps Cliff, we call them progressive dinners - very big with my mum back in the 70's

edited to ad: ultimately it's about being with you guys and i'm sure i'd have a great time no matter where it is held. A nice location in a city or camping under the stars, having a yarn by an open fire. They both have their advantages.

and, actually next year is probably not an option for me as I'm hoping to have friends in town in Sept.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: September 08, 2006, 11:52:39 PM by fearless »
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Offline OzPaul

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2006, 02:47:27 AM »
My two cent (maybe More

I have serious reservations about it being held in the USA because of the ban on HIV positive people. However if it were to be held there I have a place in mind that might suit many people.

The city of Santa Fe New Mexico. The nearest airport, Albuquerque is easily accessible and relatively inexpensive to fly into.  Santa Fe is an extremely gay friendly city yet is inclusive of every one. It is so inclusive of gays that there is not a gay bar as such, gays (and everyone) are pretty much welcome everywhere. It has strong cultural ties with Native American, Spanish and Anglo cultures. It has wonderful restaurants, museums (eleven), galleries and outstanding shopping and is considered a tourism icon around the globe. If it were to be held in Sept., the main tourist season will have passed and room rates will have moderated. There is a wealth of choice of accommodations from luxury hotels and spas to homey, southwest style B&B's. The downtown plaza area is very walkable and can be very self contained. There are many side trips to choose from including 12 Indian Pueblos ( Taos for one ) day trips to Taos, funky western hamlets, river rafting, new age retreats, day spas, alternative healing therapies ( acupuncture, every kind of massage imagineable) etc. And  for after the AMG itself it is a days drive away, or less from the Grand Canyon and a wealth of other area attractions including Mesa Verde, the Southern Rocky Mountains ( Aspen, Telluride)......

It has an easy going small city vibe, very open minded. At 80,000 people it's also the State capitol

The weather is mild in Sept. with little rain if any, warm days (not hot) and cool evenings. I think that there would literally be something for everyone and as much as I like San Fransisco, probably considerably less expensive.

Oh yea, I know so much about Santa Fe because I lived there the better part of a decade and stay there when I travel to the States ( I'm an American living in Australia).

Way more than my two cents... he, he,he.   

Cheers
Paul

Offline heartforyou

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2006, 06:40:25 AM »
I would love to see it stay a social event, basically.

Resort, or retreat in nature ... yeah, sure sounds attractive.

Give me some place and time to talk quietly and intimatly with others and I am a happy man.

Hermie
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 05:43:22 AM by heartforyou »
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2006, 07:34:03 AM »
As far as us foreigners getting into the States, can I be bold and suggest that if we are serious about a US destination that our US friends consider stockpiling extra medications for us foreigners to 'borrow' while we are there. I have a friend in LA on the same meds as me who has promised me this for when I visit. I'm simply not prepared to try and smuggle my meds into the US, not in this day and age - I'm likely to end up in Guatanamo Bay or something  :o.
Hey Lil steve, our Lisa already keeps a stash of HIV meds donated by forum members.  I'm sure she would be happy to expand the program (and advertising of it) for an AMG event.  Her and I spoke about the other day and she was going to put out a reminder about the program.  Also I think a member here is going to take advantage of it when he comes to the US later this month!

It would be great to see you!

Offline Iggy

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2006, 10:35:32 AM »
.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 09:35:19 PM by Iggy »

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2006, 01:01:35 PM »
Hey Lil steve, our Lisa already keeps a stash of HIV meds donated by forum members.  I'm sure she would be happy to expand the program (and advertising of it) for an AMG event.  Her and I spoke about the other day and she was going to put out a reminder about the program.  Also I think a member here is going to take advantage of it when he comes to the US later this month!

It would be great to see you!

I have a month and a half of sustiva to donate (or as I like to call it "curse those who take it")  Kidding aside, it's a great drug, but just didn't work for me after a year due to accumulating side effects (extreme fatigue/exhaustion)

Offline greatcyber

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2006, 12:56:16 AM »
After reading all of the petty posts in other threads, this is one club I don't care to belong to.  I couldn't care less where you do the next AMG because I have no interest in this kind of behaviour.  Joe and I can certainly spend our travel money on a destination of our own choosing, and enjoy each other's company.  Travel is experience.  We'll meet new people when we travel, or we'll choose to travel with friends.  We can be selfish, too.    Stephen
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2006, 12:43:31 PM »
I would like to propose an idea.
If by chance, our next meeting is held in the U.S, we could simply utilize a buddy system. Any of our members coming from another country, could simply mail their meds to one of the U.S. attendee's to bring to the gathering.
The U.S. attendee could put the meds in one of their own empty bottes and bring them along with their own meds.

In additon to that, Cliff was quite right. Remember I am sitting on a gold mine of meds. There are a few things I may not have, but by and large it's still a mother lode.
I always have plenty of empty Rx bottles around as I wash them, and use them for shaking cornstarch with water for cooking purposes.

I am certain we could entirely skirt the issue of bringing meds into the country.

I am sure we have a way to go until the voting is all done to determine where we will meet next year, but if we all decide on a U.S. destination the whole disclosure/med issue can be handled easily.

Looking forward to next year. :)
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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2006, 09:48:49 PM »
I have 24 pills of combivir to donate; they don't expire until Feb-2009.

Offline Longislander

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Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2006, 11:28:08 PM »
Hi people!
 I'm pretty new here, just a few days. Like Stephen, I too have read a lot of petty stuff in some threads already, but I wouldn't judge the group by a few people. And btw Stephen, not all of us have a "Joe" in the other room to vacation with, thanks for THAT reminder! :-*

I am hoping that I'm able to attend the next gathering, wherever it may be, thankfully the $ is not an issue, just the timing.

And Iggy, I'm on Long Island, and would definitely be into a group bowling adventure at the Piers. I try my best to make it to Boys nite out at Posh 1st Sat night/mo thru the yahoo group SIN. Heard of it?

And Steve (Fearless), love to gamble, Vegas sounds great to me!

I haven't noticed anywhere the #'s of attendees in the past, but if it was significant, possibly take over an entire Dude Ranch somewhere?? (no offense, women included-lol)

Paul

P.S. Anyone else developing a crush on that Matt guy (Newt)??? lol
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 11:31:53 PM by Longislander »
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Online Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,780
  • 31 Years Poz
Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2006, 07:12:58 PM »
The only suggestion I would have at this point is to have a little more structure, with options, but definite times and locations.  Schedule a morning event that ends by 11 and don't start the next until say 6 pm.  That gives everyone the time to explore, split off into small groups and do as they please.  Forget the bickering you hear, the event is more than worth it and it will change you if you allow it to.

There is plenty of time to kick around ideas.  I like the tone I see here and I look forward to seeing what you decide on for the next gatherings.

ps. Paul, what do you mean developing???  Past that long ago to admirer, he has proven himself to be one class act.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 07:15:56 PM by killfoile »

Offline Longislander

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,486
Re: Thoughts after Montreal and planning the next get together
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2006, 11:40:59 PM »
lol- Ok Kill, give me some time , only been here a few days! Don't know if the pic is him, but read his posts, see the pic.......................
PS.. not Hijacking....enough about Matt
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

 


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