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Author Topic: Forums Bullying  (Read 8235 times)

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Offline anniebc

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,942
  • AM member since 2003
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2010, 05:34:20 PM »

Joe I think most of us got your point, and understand it, please take that on board and please don't let anything or anyone bring you down.

Hugs
Jan :-*
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 05:36:37 PM by anniebc »
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline odyssey

  • Member
  • Posts: 767
  • One Crazy Mofo!
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2010, 05:45:34 PM »
Agreed, but I'm confused on one other problem that might exits, hitting the moderator button just cause someone disagrees with you, and you feel that you cannot get your point across is just SILLY, I sure hope that can be addressed as well, and I hope that on one is really doing this, if they are doing THIS I can see where it can be problematic......

The only times I've ever hit the mod button when people were being blatantly abusive by engaging in name calling behavior, or were doing the denialism thing. I agree that asking for help from the moderators because someone disagrees with you, without them being abusive, is really unnecessary.

This is not a fascist police state. I think one of the things that is nice here is that people are allowed to have different opinions. Of course, we all know denialism is not tolerated, but beyond that, people are free to express their own beliefs.
01/09/09- diagnosed HIV+
01/16/09   CD4-425    22%  VL- 32,415
11/09- started Reyetaz/Norvir/Truvada
03/10- stopped R/N/T
10/18/11   CD4- 328   20%  VL- 84,000
10/25/11   CD4- 386   22%
10/28/11- start Truvada/Reyetaz/Norvir
12/30/11  CD4- 523  29%
03/08/12  CD4- 503  31%  VL 57
07/02/12  CD4- 897  43%
08/31/12  CD4- 745  39%
12/27/12  CD4- 884  40%
03/28/13  CD4- 819  39%
07/19/13  CD4- 739  40%
10/17/13  CD4- 535  36%
01/16/14  CD4- 743  43%

02/14- switched from R/N/T to Tivicay/Epzicom because of CKD 3 suspected from tenofovir.

03/14- switched back to R/N/T due to severe nausea and inability to eat on T/E.
 
04/01/14 CD4- 898  42%   VL-

Offline denb45

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  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2010, 07:48:40 PM »
The only times I've ever hit the mod button when people were being blatantly abusive by engaging in name calling behavior, or were doing the denialism thing. I agree that asking for help from the moderators because someone disagrees with you, without them being abusive, is really unnecessary.

This is not a fascist police state. I think one of the things that is nice here is that people are allowed to have different opinions. Of course, we all know denialism is not tolerated, but beyond that, people are free to express their own beliefs.

Well, I sure hope not, cause that's no fun, so i hope all of the mods don't suck all of the fun outta of coming to this site, having a few laughs, and learning, talking about what we know about AIDS, cause that's no fun either......for a lot of sick & shut-in people, this is a very nice place to be  ;)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 07:51:54 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Snowangel

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,413
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2010, 08:50:19 PM »
Personally, I think it's just what the dr ordered.  Taking my meds with a healthy dose of sarcasm. I find the posts comforting, inspirational, funny,sad or boggling, not always in that order.

 I don't care what is said here, I read it and don't think about it again until I come back to the computer, unless someone happens to be sick or feeling down in the dumps. If that is the case~~ I hate to say that I pray~ but I hope in my heart that they feel better soon no matter who it is and what they said.

Who said that quote in that whiny voice " WHHHHHHYYY can't we just ALL get allloooooooonnnggg?"
Of all the things you wear, your expression is the most important

The heaviest thing you can carry is a grudge..

One thing you can give and still keep...is your word.

One thing you can't recycle is wasted time.

Offline sharkdiver

  • Member
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Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2010, 09:07:37 PM »
    It's hard for me to put into words what this forum means to me and how the people that I have interacted with have influenced my life.

   I do know this, the people I know on here are very passionate. Passionate about keeping each other going when we just can't seem to see the end to our misery. Passionate about justice for every single being no matter what race or gender or income level. And passionate about truth and honesty especially when it comes living with this disease.

   

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2010, 04:50:51 PM »
Tim

I am disappointed by your response to the bullying on the forums.  You are in charge, but you accept no responsibility, do not offer up any solutions and do not indicate that you are willing to change anything.

Imagine you were a bullied kid in high school and the principal sent out a message that said:
"There are limits to what moderators the Administration can do in these Forums halls – any real or virtual gathering place, really. There will ALWAYS be leaders, circles of followers and outsiders. We will never be able to turn the Forums this school into an egalitarian utopia – I honestly believe this would be an incredibly boring and fruitless place if we actually could achieve this – and would rather we require less, not more, moderating discipline to keep things moving along. We’ve been at this long enough to realize that moderating disciplining personalities is as fruitless a task as attempting to herd cats. What we can ask people to do, however, is to more considerately check their behaviors in this very public online environment. "

Would you feel any better protected?  Or just find a way to check out of high school?


This site has disciplinary policies but they are inconsistently, rather than impartially, applied.  Recently they have been applied against the victims of bullying when those victims lashed back against those who they believed were tormenting them!  And when the policies are applied they almost always contain spiteful commentary -- while it may feel good to the disciplinarian, nothing is more likely to promote distrust in the fairness of a ruling than personal snarky commentary by the judge.

I think you could make four simple changes that would dramatically change the tone on these boards:
1) Amend the time out and banning policies to give a single warning for bullying behaviour
2) Apply the policies when you receive credible reports of bullying, even if in arrears
3) Make the message applying the ban fully impartial --  citing the section of the policies that has been violated but avoiding personal commentary
4) Follow the time out rules in the policies rather than jumping to an immediate ban

I also encourage you to reach out to and apologize to those recently banned for responding to bullying and instead enforce the timeout policy.


But these are just suggestions.  You are in charge.  Man up; accept responsibility; make changes. 

But don't tell us you can do nothing.  You have the authority and the responsibility to do better.

5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,795
  • 31 Years Poz
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2010, 06:21:46 PM »
I also encourage you to reach out to and apologize to those recently banned for responding to bullying and instead enforce the timeout policy.

Maybe it is time to repost the timeout/banning policy, because threatening a moderator, by wishing that they die of AIDS soon, is a bannable offense. I have a very unsettling feeling about your reply in general.

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,705
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2010, 06:27:54 PM »
Tim

I am disappointed by your response to the bullying on the forums.  You are in charge, but you accept no responsibility, do not offer up any solutions and do not indicate that you are willing to change anything.

Imagine you were a bullied kid in high school and the principal sent out a message that said:
"There are limits to what moderators the Administration can do in these Forums halls – any real or virtual gathering place, really. There will ALWAYS be leaders, circles of followers and outsiders. We will never be able to turn the Forums this school into an egalitarian utopia – I honestly believe this would be an incredibly boring and fruitless place if we actually could achieve this – and would rather we require less, not more, moderating discipline to keep things moving along. We’ve been at this long enough to realize that moderating disciplining personalities is as fruitless a task as attempting to herd cats. What we can ask people to do, however, is to more considerately check their behaviors in this very public online environment. "

Would you feel any better protected?  Or just find a way to check out of high school?


This site has disciplinary policies but they are inconsistently, rather than impartially, applied.  Recently they have been applied against the victims of bullying when those victims lashed back against those who they believed were tormenting them!  And when the policies are applied they almost always contain spiteful commentary -- while it may feel good to the disciplinarian, nothing is more likely to promote distrust in the fairness of a ruling than personal snarky commentary by the judge.

I think you could make four simple changes that would dramatically change the tone on these boards:
1) Amend the time out and banning policies to give a single warning for bullying behaviour
2) Apply the policies when you receive credible reports of bullying, even if in arrears
3) Make the message applying the ban fully impartial --  citing the section of the policies that has been violated but avoiding personal commentary
4) Follow the time out rules in the policies rather than jumping to an immediate ban

I also encourage you to reach out to and apologize to those recently banned for responding to bullying and instead enforce the timeout policy.


But these are just suggestions.  You are in charge.  Man up; accept responsibility; make changes. 

But don't tell us you can do nothing.  You have the authority and the responsibility to do better.



I think you need more info bud.  Threatening a moderator is not a form of bullying?  Please clarify.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline OneTampa

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,274
  • "Butterflies are free."
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2010, 08:35:58 PM »
I understand what everyone is saying.  As for me, I think, on the whole, my post from earlier this year still applies:

212.   Main Forums / Long-Term Survivors / I Live The Body Eclectic...25 Years and Counting on: April 23, 2010, 11:24:04 PM 

“…In closing...Please know that everyone here on the Boards have helped me more than you will ever know--through all of our agreements and disagreements (I call them  "hug", "slap", "tease" and "tense" moments).    I look forward to many future chats.  Best…”
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline Hellraiser

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2010, 03:01:57 AM »
I think you need more info bud.  Threatening a moderator is not a form of bullying?  Please clarify.

I don't think Assurban was specifically talking about Tommy.  Although I disagree that the current policy needs to be reworked.  I think the moderators keep a healthy distance from most of the threads and step in only as needed.  When needed or when things seem to be getting out of hand they step in and moderate.  They hand out warnings if need be or if the discussion devolves further.  If they got particularly strict then a one off action by a long standing member could be used against them as a warning or bannable offense.  Everybody has their bad days, everyone has things that bring them down and maybe they redirect that anger at people on these boards on occasion.  I'm pretty sure Tim was trying to get some of the recurrent maliciousness to take a back burner to the support function of these forums.

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,705
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2010, 09:44:58 AM »
I don't think Assurban was specifically talking about Tommy.  Although I disagree that the current policy needs to be reworked.  I think the moderators keep a healthy distance from most of the threads and step in only as needed.  When needed or when things seem to be getting out of hand they step in and moderate.  They hand out warnings if need be or if the discussion devolves further.  If they got particularly strict then a one off action by a long standing member could be used against them as a warning or bannable offense.  Everybody has their bad days, everyone has things that bring them down and maybe they redirect that anger at people on these boards on occasion.  I'm pretty sure Tim was trying to get some of the recurrent maliciousness to take a back burner to the support function of these forums.

How is it that you know how everyone feels or thinks all the time?  I really need to know Trey, because I am on my third marriage.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2010, 11:00:41 AM »
How is it that you know how everyone feels or thinks all the time?  I really need to know Trey, because I am on my third marriage.

My big clue was that he didn't ever say the name Tommy in his post if you must know.

Offline skeebo1969

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  • Posts: 5,705
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2010, 11:08:04 AM »
My big clue was that he didn't ever say the name Tommy in his post if you must know.

So in other words he may have been speaking about you?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2010, 11:12:58 AM »
So in other words he may have been speaking about you?

Except that I haven't had any disciplinary actions applied to me by the moderators.  If you completely disregard that portion of his post, then yes he could be talking about me.  Although that would mean a complete rewrite of his entire meaning.  If you really tried hard you could imagine he was writing a letter to Castro asking for candy this Halloween too, but I really doubt that was the intent.  Of course that would be me just assuming his intent again, so maybe he IS asking for candy for Castro.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2010, 11:15:17 AM »
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Semi-misanthropic
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2010, 11:18:59 AM »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2010, 11:34:46 AM »
Thumbs up for a successful derail.

Or a press of the like button for self righteous indignation. :D  If my memory serves correct your fingers are fairly dirty concerning this issue Trey.  You shouldn't point out the ills of others if you once participated in this yourself.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2010, 11:40:12 AM »
I can't tell you all how much I wish you'd ALL grow up. I've been really sick with high fevers and whatnot for the past nearly two weeks and it's so heartbreaking to come back to all this back-biting, veiled threats, name-calling and just pure CHILDISHNESS!

Assurbanipal, THIS IS NOT HIGH SCHOOL. We moderate these forums to the best of our abilities and even a cursory look around other forums on the internet will show you that these forums are amongst the best out there in terms of nastiness not being permitted. If you think you can do better, then do it. I'd like to see how you'd moderate some of the passive-aggressive stuff that goes on around here without alienating EVERYONE.

Skeebo, grow up. This isn't the sort of thread where your silly pictures are appreciated.

And NO, Hellraiser, you can't presume to know how everyone feels nor do you speak for everyone here.

I'll say it again, would everyone PLEASE GROW UP. Tim posted a plea that everyone start looking to their OWN behaviour, but yet some took it as a green-light to point fingers. Just remember, when you point a finger at someone else, three are pointing back at YOU.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Tim Horn

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  • Posts: 799
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2010, 01:11:15 PM »
Adding to Ann's words, I do agree that the moderators have been inconsistently applying the rules and regulations of these boards so, yes, all four of us are prepared to "man up" and begin implementing warnings, time-outs and bans accordingly. And, no, ban reversals and apologies are not on the table for the two individuals recently removed from the Forums.

This is not high school and I stand behind every word I wrote in my original post, which was intended for an adult audience of online forums members. A number of people have pointed out that we're all adults and, in turn, are ultimately responsible for our own behavior -- I very much believe this and don't think it's too much to ask that members here first consider that there is a problem and, in turn, do something about it. If anyone else would like for the moderators to assume full responsibility for the behavior of forums members, then please let's hear it -- I can see to it that the forums are shut down completely when there's no moderator online, find funding to pay moderators who have no personal vested interest in the content or people here and run this place like we would a high school.

I suppose, then, this is where we'll leave this. Hopefully everyone has had a chance to read this thread and has given it more than just a few seconds of thought.  If not, so be it -- Ann, Andy, David and I will be keeping a closer eye on nastiness in the forums and meting out warnings and time outs accordingly.

Tim

 

Offline Assurbanipal

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  • Taking a forums break, still see PM's
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2010, 01:57:14 PM »

***edited -- I had posted a long discussion to address the questions that had been raised and the need for changes. Then saw Tim's post which came in while I was reviewing.  Out of respect for Tim's views and hard work and passion for this site I've removed that post which appears unduly critical when seen after rather than before his post (position matters!)

Thank you for addressing this Tim.  We appreciate your efforts on behalf of all of us here.

A
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 02:11:33 PM by Assurbanipal »
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Andy Velez

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
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Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2010, 05:39:31 PM »
Have to say I sure do love it when Ann reads off the riot act. Go, Ann!

I join in asking for people to speak only from  the "I"perspective. Take responsibility for what you want to say. Speak only for yourself and if it's something you're angry about then distinguish between saying what you need to and going into attack mode. There is a difference.

AND KEEP IT SIMPLE.  

Like John Lennon suggested, "All we're saying is give peace a chance."



  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 05:41:42 PM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline leatherman

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  • Google and HIV meds are Your Friends
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2010, 06:13:14 PM »
Thanks, Tim, for the time you have taken to address this issue. Hopefully, everyone will take a little more time to think about responding to one another, or maybe not responding at all if the situation warrants it.

I ... don't think it's too much to ask that members here first consider that there is a problem and, in turn, do something about it.
thank you for that too. I held off posting anything because quite a few people seemed to imply that they didn't see or couldn't see the bullying that has taken place in the forums over the last little while. Just because your experiences are not someone else's experiences doesn't make theirs, or yours, invalid. Many people, as of late, have complained about bullying, and so it has to be considered that bullying it what some people have experienced, whether that was your experience here or not.

I know that over the last 6 months or so, I have chosen to post less frequently (chatting more in PMs) while writing more lengthy and detailed postings, for fear of being flamed about the smallest details in what I wrote. (you'll notice that even in this thread I will have to add extra clarification, risking the dreaded "TL;DR", because I fear someone will nitpick my points to death. LOL ) Several times lately I've been beaten down for just describing my experiences that were different from someone else's experiences - without even commenting on that other person's experiences.

I'm asking prominent members of these Forums to think twice before posting snarky, potentially hurtful comments at other members and to resist the urge of jumping into the fray of already problematic threads.
I have noticed the same two issues which often result in thread problems. One is that while sarcasm often may sound funny in person; as words on the screen, they often read with an implied hatefulness. Everyone needs to be mindful that what they are reading may not have been written in a bad/mad tone; and everyone posting should consider that it's easier to explain things and win people over using honey instead of vinegar.

Of course, I'm not saying to never say sarcastic things. I just repeating what Tim is encouraging, that we think about how our words will be perceived. There should be a difference to responses made in the off-topic forum to the living with forum. (for example, because this is a great support and education site, a newer member asking, in the living with forum, about meds or cd4s probably would prefer a real science-based answer than some funny off-topic comment as the first or only response.)

Secondly, some people get overwhelmed and feel threatened or attacked when multiple members jump into a discussion and repeat a point that has already been made. Though those member may not realize, from the other side it looks like a gang of members is attacking them. So far, I haven't met anyone here who can't speak their mind and needs backup from a "gang". LOL Of course, "ganging up" like that usually never changes the opinion of anyone; but will force that person to defend themselves even when their opinion is indefensible. (and boy have we seen some threads go down in flames in those situations)

Again, I'm not saying that multiple people can't try to help explain something when a person is spouting off bad science or something; but how many people would need to respond before you thought they were ganging up on you? If 4, 5, 6 members or so began to repeat something to you, in less and less nice tones, without you getting a post in edgewise, wouldn't you get defensive feeling like you were being boxed into a corner with no way to retreat, retract, or even repent and change your mind?

Thanks again, Tim, for acknowledging and addressing this issue. Hopefully, we will all take a little more time to think when responding to one another so that other members don't feel bullied or that this is an unsafe place for their questions and comments.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline mecch

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  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2010, 06:20:38 AM »
http://www.towleroad.com/2010/10/watch-president-obamas-it-gets-better-message.html

Video of Obama's contribution to It Gets Better and a transcription, too!

We’ve got to dispel the myth that bullying is just a normal rite of passage—that it’s some inevitable part of growing up. It’s not. We have an obligation to ensure that our schools are safe for all of our kids. And to every young person out there you need to know that if you’re in trouble, there are caring adults who can help.

I don’t know what it’s like to be picked on for being gay. But I do know what it’s like to grow up feeling that sometimes you don’t belong. It’s tough. And for a lot of kids, the sense of being alone or apart—I know can just wear on you. And when you’re teased or bullied, it can seem like somehow you brought it on yourself—for being different, or for not fitting in with everybody else.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2010, 06:40:58 AM »
Who said that quote in that whiny voice " WHHHHHHYYY can't we just ALL get allloooooooonnnggg?"

Snow,  it was Rodney King, who on May 1, 1992, said "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?" after the acquittal of Los Angeles police in his beating trial sparked widespread rioting. Em


Offline Snowangel

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Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2010, 12:29:01 PM »
Thanks, Em  ;D
Of all the things you wear, your expression is the most important

The heaviest thing you can carry is a grudge..

One thing you can give and still keep...is your word.

One thing you can't recycle is wasted time.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Forums Bullying
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2010, 12:35:11 PM »
You're welcome, Snow!

 


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