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Author Topic: hiv infection by oral sex  (Read 18791 times)

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Offline Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2010, 02:57:55 PM »
Hi Klipsch i can understand exactly what you are saying ,sadly this forum has gone down hill recently as there seems to be a little clique of posters who generally try to be little fellow posters and destroy threads with childish bitchy comments and the mods seem to turn a blind eye to it for reasons known to them. Its sad really as i think some people are put of from asking questions, as if you dare to step out of line of the general thought of the clique they just try and ridicule you.The one trying to ridicule you is the most ignored person on the board so i wouldnt worry about it ,regards tommy
P.S. I was th OP of this thread and was even warned by ann for trying to start an argument with an innocent question, whereas i was just conveying my observations of what i had read previously on the forum and elsewhere trying to get some clarification.

I warned you about trying to start an argument because your OP contained false accusations.

Recently? I have been fiercely advocating for a science-based forum since I joined in 2004.

I will never, EVER let non-scientific stuff slip through without at least commenting on it. I do not want people perusing these forums without signing up or speaking up to have the impression that first-tiered peer-reviewed science applies to some of the claims made here.

Yes it has made me unwelcome to many folks. I am sure I am on "ignore" for a lot of people. And Heaven help me, I cannot feel comfortable talking about my own issues here because of this scrutiny. Such is the price for being an advocate of science.

Sorry, Tommy, I cannot let your assertions go without refutation. This forum, and the integrity of same. means too much to me.

I've about had it with your smearing this forum, from the members to the moderators, simply because you do not get your way. If you had posted your claim, substantiated by actual research, I doubt you would have received the replies that you did. What you seem to be missing is the understanding that we do our best here, to always tell the truth regarding HIV, as we know it, because of scientific peer-reviewed research. We also maintain these forums for everyone and that includes readers who never post. If we are to be effective we must challenge false information, otherwise we are not doing our job.

We have members here who have incredible knowledge regarding the science of HIV and they work very hard, scanning research etc., to insure we present the most recent scientific findings. Members are replying to your false assertions and that is how the forum is supposed to work. There is no clique here, comprised of members who take joy in stifling conversation. Instead, there are members who monitor the threads to answer questions honestly, based on science and if you had really read the replies here, you would see that nobody was attacking you. They were attacking your assertions that were incorrect.

You really need to work at showing members some respect and to stop whining every time you do not get your way. You are acting like a child, so do not be surprised when you are treated as such.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2010, 04:43:06 PM »
Stop getting your knickers in a twist jkintal2 i was refering to ms pissilia ignored by 19 members your way behind your only ignored by 9.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 04:45:29 PM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2010, 04:44:22 PM »
Stop getting your knickers in a twist i was refering to ms pissilia ignored by 19 members your way behind your only ignored by 9.

Now now, Thomas. There's no need to be cranky. :)

MtD

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2010, 04:50:25 PM »
I've about had it with your smearing this forum, from the members to the moderators, simply because you do not get your way. If you had posted your claim, substantiated by actual research, I doubt you would have received the replies that you did. What you seem to be missing is the understanding that we do our best here, to always tell the truth regarding HIV, as we know it, because of scientific peer-reviewed research. We also maintain these forums for everyone and that includes readers who never post. If we are to be effective we must challenge false information, otherwise we are not doing our job.

We have members here who have incredible knowledge regarding the science of HIV and they work very hard, scanning research etc., to insure we present the most recent scientific findings. Members are replying to your false assertions and that is how the forum is supposed to work. There is no clique here, comprised of members who take joy in stifling conversation. Instead, there are members who monitor the threads to answer questions honestly, based on science and if you had really read the replies here, you would see that nobody was attacking you. They were attacking your assertions that were incorrect.

You really need to work at showing members some respect and to stop whining every time you do not get your way. You are acting like a child, so do not be surprised when you are treated as such.

Im not smearing anybody just telling a few home truths it would be nice if people could respect posters questions however naive they might seem and respond in an adult manor instead of  just giving smart arse bitchy comments ,my vitamin thread being the perfect example.
And by the way i wasnt making a claim merely offering my opinion upon what i have read many times on here and also commenting on dr gallants opinion which i value alot more than yours.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 04:54:49 PM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2010, 05:06:59 PM »
Im not smearing anybody just telling a few home truths it would be nice if people could respect posters questions however naive they might seem and respond in an adult manor instead of  just giving smart arse bitchy comments ,my vitamin thread being the perfect example.
And by the way i wasnt making a claim merely offering my opinion upon what i have read many times on here and also commenting on dr gallants opinion which i value alot more than yours.

So which is it? Are you telling a few home truths or stating your opinion? You cannot be doing both. So which statement is a lie? Inquiring minds want to know.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2010, 05:12:31 PM »
God this is tedious im of to bed ,you try and twist everything to suit your agenda , the few home truths comment refer to the bitcyness thats all to common on here now move on man.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2010, 05:16:11 PM »
Oh, now I have an agenda? What would that be? Inquiring minds still want to know.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline Jeff G

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2010, 05:40:29 PM »
God this is tedious im of to bed ,you try and twist everything to suit your agenda , the few home truths comment refer to the bitcyness thats all to common on here now move on man.

Pot calling the kettle black . Its your agenda and bad attitude that needs adjusting .

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2010, 05:54:11 PM »
ms pissilia

tut tut dear.  Name calling is very bad form. ::)
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2010, 05:59:25 PM »
It seems the original stated purpose of this thread was to discuss the subject of HIV infection via oral sex.

Please confine your comments to that if you want to say something. If the thread just continues down snapping and snarking lane I'm going to lock it.

Andy Velez

Offline Ann

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2010, 09:16:22 PM »
QUOTE : Getting a blowjob, with or without a condom, is not a risk for hiv infection.

It's true, deal with it.

AND I've posted studies to back up what I've said. YOU cannot say the same.

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2010, 02:11:50 AM »
Maybe you "anal experimented" later on but forgot because you'd passed out?  Happens to me all of the time.

Killifoile my final word ,Klipsch took offence to the comment quoted above by priscila is it useful ,informative, no its rude,disrespectful  and a perfect example of unhelpful bitchiness ,hence my reply to klipsch what dont you understand.
p.s i see the clique have arrived lol.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 02:19:06 AM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline komnaes

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2010, 04:27:37 AM »
Consider, from a HIV science perspective:

1. There are a number of studies attempting to scientifically assess the risk of HIV transmission via receiving oral sex, including but not limiting to what were previously quoted in this thread, and they all point to the fact that the risk is only theoretical (which simply means it's possible in theory but cannot be proven conclusively that it in real life does/can occur)

2. There are many studies pointing to the conclusive fact that saliva virtually never carries any infectious HIV at all (see Shugars DC, Sweet SP, Malamud D, Kazmi S, Page-Shafer K, Challacombe SJ (2002) Saliva and inhibition of HIV-1 infection: molecular mechanisms. Oral Diseases 8: 169-175 Suppl. 2 2002; Baron S, Poast J, Cloyd MW (1999) Why is HIV rarely transmitted by oral secretions? Saliva can disrupt orally shed, infected leukocytes. Archives of Internal Medicine 159 (3): 303-310)

Since, from my observation (as I cannot speak for the mods), these forums relay on these scientific studies instead of "personal" stories, I would simply suggest that for those who claim they got infected, beyond all doubt, from one incident of receiving oral sex (i.e. thereby ruling out all other possibilities) volunteer themselves for scientific revaluations and studies. The reason being that if these alleged infections did indeed occur, can be verified scientifically and published in creditable scientific journals, I am sure these forums would consider them in the future to determine whether the current position should be changed.

Just think of the contribution you can do to HIV transmission science!
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2010, 06:53:59 AM »
You've never seen a moderator say it was impossible to be infected through GIVING blowjobs.

What we do say is that the science of hiv transmission on a cellular level doesn't support this mode of transmission. We say that the serodiscordant studies don't support this mode of transmission either.

But we never say it is impossible. Improbable, highly unlikely, yes; impossible, no.

An example of where it could happen is if the person giving the blowjob has absolutely terrible oral health and the person being blown was recently infected and had a sky-high viral load. But that situation isn't the norm.

GETTING a blowjob isn't a risk and yes, I'd say it was as close to impossible as you can get. You'd have to get blown by someone with a mouth absolutely FULL of blood for there to be any sort of risk.

Why do I get the feeling that you've only posted this thread to start an argument? If it starts heading that way, it will be shut down before you can say blowjob.


Yeah, but do I swollow?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

ďNeither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2010, 06:55:44 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

ďNeither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline Dachshund

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2010, 07:17:13 AM »
Stop getting your knickers in a twist jkintal2 i was refering to ms pissilia ignored by 19 members your way behind your only ignored by 9.

Honey, check your profile.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 07:29:12 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Basquo

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2010, 08:37:24 AM »
Honey, check your profile.

Good eye for detail, Dachs!

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2010, 01:26:19 PM »
Honey, check your profile.

Interesting:

Name:   tommy246
Posts:   422 (0.777 per day)
Position:   member
Ignored by:   29 members
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline mpositive

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2010, 08:40:07 AM »
Well, this is an interesting thread.  When I was diagnosed, I asked one of the doctors at Rockefeller University about this.  I was so certain I got infected giving this woman oral sex and not having unprotected sex with her.  The doctor said to me that it was much more likely that I got infected by having unprotected sex with her.  Still, I question it in my mind.  It just seems to me that getting infected, for a guy, through male to female intercourse, is so freaking unlikely, that it had to be me giving her oral.  Mind you, I stayed down there for awhile....  :)
Now, going forward, I would like to think that it is safe to give oral to a woman....because i do love it so, but, I am still confused. 

The "physics" of it all, just seems so unlikely. 

BTW, I actually tried to convince myself that I may have gotten it from colonoscopy a week later.  Yes, I know, don't laugh...lol.  But that is how outlandish it seemed to me that I got it this way.

:) 

Offline bocker3

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2010, 10:41:11 AM »
It just seems to me that getting infected, for a guy, through male to female intercourse, is so freaking unlikely,  

Most cases of HIV across the globe are in heterosexuals -- so just why do you think it is so difficult for a male to get HIV from unprotected sex with a woman??  If what you said is true, then how did all these woman get it, because clearly the men fucking them mustn't have had it -- the immaculate infection?  ::)

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2010, 12:13:17 PM »
Well, this is an interesting thread.  When I was diagnosed, I asked one of the doctors at Rockefeller University about this.  I was so certain I got infected giving this woman oral sex and not having unprotected sex with her.  The doctor said to me that it was much more likely that I got infected by having unprotected sex with her.  Still, I question it in my mind.  It just seems to me that getting infected, for a guy, through male to female intercourse, is so freaking unlikely, that it had to be me giving her oral.  Mind you, I stayed down there for awhile....  :)
Now, going forward, I would like to think that it is safe to give oral to a woman....because i do love it so, but, I am still confused. 

The "physics" of it all, just seems so unlikely. 

BTW, I actually tried to convince myself that I may have gotten it from colonoscopy a week later.  Yes, I know, don't laugh...lol.  But that is how outlandish it seemed to me that I got it this way.

:) 

It is hard for me to understand the denialist attitude towards oral infection. Hubby was iimpotent for MANY years due to surgical complications. It took years to happen, but there is no doubt, that is how be became infected. Those who say it is impossible are full of crap.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2010, 12:43:12 PM »
Well, this is an interesting thread.  When I was diagnosed, I asked one of the doctors at Rockefeller University about this.  I was so certain I got infected giving this woman oral sex and not having unprotected sex with her.  The doctor said to me that it was much more likely that I got infected by having unprotected sex with her.  Still, I question it in my mind.  It just seems to me that getting infected, for a guy, through male to female intercourse, is so freaking unlikely, that it had to be me giving her oral.  Mind you, I stayed down there for awhile....  :)
Now, going forward, I would like to think that it is safe to give oral to a woman....because i do love it so, but, I am still confused. 

The "physics" of it all, just seems so unlikely. 

BTW, I actually tried to convince myself that I may have gotten it from colonoscopy a week later.  Yes, I know, don't laugh...lol.  But that is how outlandish it seemed to me that I got it this way.

:) 

I agree with your doctor, unprotected sex was likely the way you became infected.  While saying that, I also respect your opinion regarding the matter, just to glance over some of the specifics regarding viable entry ways for endocytosis to occur (the way our body takes on the virus) causes me to disagree with this stance though.  Microbial infections do indeed enter the mouth and, of course, our bodies first line of defense are the phagocytes that can cause a response to these infections.  But you see, this isn't how HIV works, it tricks the cell into thinking it is something other than an infection.  Simply put, stuff like this doesn't occur in the mouth.  I think it's why they say a person with very poor dental health could possibly be infected because there is a theoretical entry way.

We discussed this in Physiology class this week actually, of course, I was the main one asking the questions.  Above is pretty much what the professor (a doctor) had to say regarding oral transmission.  I was impressed with his stance regarding the matter because my own HIV doctor has some pretty archaic opinions regarding transmission.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2010, 02:01:58 PM »
It is hard for me to understand the denialist attitude towards oral infection. Hubby was iimpotent for MANY years due to surgical complications. It took years to happen, but there is no doubt, that is how be became infected. Those who say it is impossible are full of crap.


We have science to back up our assertions. If this is the thread where you wish to throw down a gauntlet, so be it. I am growing weary of posting scientific evidence in a conversation with anecdotal evidence offered in return.

Sorry, but you do not het HIV from cunnilingus or insertive fellatio. And if you CAN get HIV from receptive fellatio, we have yet to find a non-anecdotal study to prove it.

That is the science. I daresay that those of us who have researched this know our "crap" from our data.

The credibility of this site depends on scientific accuracy. It is a slippery slope to accept part of the science surrounding HIV and reject others. As someone with intellectual investment in this site, I shall continue to defend the science that frames it. Obviously that makes it hard for me to use it as a support forum, but such is life.


*edited to reduce the snark.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 02:13:56 PM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2010, 02:53:56 PM »
It is hard for me to understand the denialist attitude towards oral infection. Hubby was iimpotent for MANY years due to surgical complications. It took years to happen, but there is no doubt, that is how be became infected. Those who say it is impossible are full of crap.

I like your posts granny.  They are simple, honest and smart.  The 10 ton elephant in the living room isn't that oral sex is or isn't safe.  We'll never really have an official word on it.  We can't replicate real-world behavior in any of these studies.  The ten ton elephant is why so many people are shouted down, dismissed or told they're in denial when they have every reason to be honest.  I suspect that politics play a larger part in it than anyone admits.       
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2010, 03:18:29 PM »
Quote
I like your posts granny.  They are simple, honest and smart.  The 10 ton elephant in the living room isn't that oral sex is or isn't safe.  We'll never really have an official word on it. We can't replicate real-world behavior in any of these studies. The ten ton elephant is why so many people are shouted down, dismissed or told they're in denial when they have every reason to be honest.  I suspect that politics play a larger part in it than anyone admits.       

Yes we can. Remember the Romero study? The multiple Page Shafer studies? They corroborated the en vitro evidence as well as the en vivo evidence using SHIV, HIV and SIV.

Remember Ann's discussion of the Bartholens Glands, and how the infectious fluid in external vaginal secretions contained no more HIV than sweat or tears? Remember the science that states that infectious fluid is ONLY found in cervical fluids, which are inaccessible from the tongue and finger?

How about the statistics which show a ZERO percent lesbian infection vector for the last thirty years?



There is absolutely NO political reason to dismiss oral sex as a viable role. As a matter of fact, the Bush administration actually downplayed the role of condom use in preventing HIV, utilizing a single abstinence-only poliicy.

Hell, even the CDC, a government agency, has links on it's site that are two clicks away from the Catholic Church's claim that condoms FACILITATE infection through "microscopic holes."

Show me evidence that any political gain would ensue from downplaying or dismissing oral sex as an HIV vector.

I think that the "10 ton elephant in the room" is that some people are unwilling to concede to scientific evidence if it does not fit their paradigm.

This site is science based. You want to tell people you got infected through fluids which are no more infectious than tears or sweat? Fine. Don't be shocked when they refuse to kiss you, play sports with you, or hold you when you cry.  Want to claim that you got HIV through a portal that does not contain the correct environment to sustain viable viral particles? Fine. But don't be shocked when people don't let you use the bathroom at their house - or, if your claims get widespread agreement, in public.

the 10 ton elephant is that some people would rather face - and promote - stigma than admit to their mistakes and/or ignorance. That sort of thinking, unopposed, WILL ruin this forum more than flamewars and "bullying."

I will not, until removed from this forum, let these claims slide. So take it up with Mr. Horn and Mr. Valdez. Report my posts as spouting unscientific and incorrect information. I will not let you people bully this site into irrelevance.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #75 on: October 16, 2010, 03:34:15 PM »
Magnificently worded JK. As always.

As you eloquently note, we do not deny the hypothetical risk of HIV transmission to people who perform unprotected oral on HIV positive males. We merely note the absence of reliably documented cases of this mode of transmission.

And we weight our advice accordingly.

Why this sends a small and rather uniformed subset of members into such a tizzy has always mystified me.

MtD

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #76 on: October 16, 2010, 03:48:19 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.

Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #77 on: October 16, 2010, 03:53:53 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.

TSK TSK TSK ma'am, the mouse-fingers of the cartel are aflutter with the "report to moderator" button for DARING to point out how things work on here.  You've DEEPLY offended more than two dozen people...or maybe just three who continuously log in under different names all day long.

09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2010, 04:08:57 PM »
You've DEEPLY offended more than two dozen people...or maybe just three who continuously log in under different names all day long.


Maybe you should post this under the "Conspriacy Theories" thread --- in between UFOs and JFK assassination.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2010, 04:09:42 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.
I beg your pardon.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2010, 04:10:15 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.

You do that, dearie. :)

MtD

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #81 on: October 16, 2010, 04:12:30 PM »

  I think grampapa lied.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline newt

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #82 on: October 16, 2010, 04:31:29 PM »
Every distribution curve includes extreme outliers, eg the very, very, very few cases of (likely) household transmission, like:

Transmission from One Child to Another of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1 with a Zidovudine-Resistance Mutation
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199312163292502

That these case reports exist should not determine the evidence and should not inform the advice given on transmission. They do not contradict the (more robust) cohort and (even more robust) randomised trials on transmission. They are case studies, exceptions, for specialists, for special circumstances. Sample of 1 (person), sometimes 2 (people) not 100s or 1,000s (of people).

There will be grey areas where transmission cannot be determined as proven or unproven, and which apply to very few cases, probably under specific, maybe unique conditions. Like people who had a new car that blew up for no reason, or sommat else odd and against the trend. It don't mean it's generally gonna be the case, or indeed that it is a risk worth worrying about for everyone (shit if it happens to you tho).

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline bocker3

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #83 on: October 16, 2010, 04:50:58 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.

So what is up with you today Granny?  You seem to be out of your usual sorts......  You haven't hit me as a conspirationalist.  If someone was banned for a link -- then the link was probably to a denialist site.

It's unfortunate that this topic always and I mean ALWAYS turns into a disaster -- with many warnings and TOs.  Both sides have their points and why we all don't just agree to disagree on this one is beyond me.  One side is never going to convince the other at this point in time, so why waste the energy and emotion.

Infection via oral probably happens, albeit extremely rarely.  This is why we'll never see a scientific stufy with lots of cases.  And as for why we see more alledged cases on these forums than the literature might support is probably due to the fact that this is an HIV SITE.  We have a higher proportion of people with HIV on this forum than the literatrue supports too.

So....  let's just all step back and agree to disagree here.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2010, 09:03:23 PM »
Say Never or something is impossible and God will laugh at you for the next 5000 years. And yes, this subject ALWAYS turns as pleasant as stepping in shit. Maybe some of you who know how to do a decent search on this subject can find the link that was made here on POZ  or Aids med  back in 2008 (?) to the case study where HIV was transmitted between to oral partners in the U.K. and phenogenetic testing was done to rule out the possibility of third party involvement exactly as was done in my husbands case? Are you people that are so adamant that  oral transmission is impossible  just pissy because you don't want to give up your blow jobs? I am not saying you should give up your little pleasure that puts the smile on your face,  just that a 1/100,00 or 1/1,000,000 possibility does not equate  impossible. Why is it that nobody can ever voice an opinion here on POZ without eventually somebody getting insulting?  Skeebo, you did a nice job of being insulting. We are one couple that has spent 24/7/365 together for years. We worked together, we ate together, we played together and slept together.   the one time we have not been together was when I went to see my mother for a week years before his last neg. test, so I can say with confidence, grandpa did not lie. We both know where he got HIV and how he got HIV,  there is no question and no doubt.

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #85 on: October 16, 2010, 09:09:07 PM »
From the CDC web site:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/transmission.htm

Which body fluids transmit HIV?

These body fluids have been shown to contain high concentrations of HIV:

    * blood
    * semen
    * vaginal fluid
    * breast milk
    * other body fluids containing blood
Can I get HIV from oral sex?

Yes, it is possible for either partner to become infected with HIV through performing or receiving oral sex, though it is a less common mode of transmission than other sexual behaviors (anal and vaginal sex). There have been a few cases of HIV transmission from performing oral sex on a person infected with HIV. While no one knows exactly what the degree of risk is, evidence suggests that the risk is less than that of unprotected anal or vaginal sex.

Cells lining the mouth of the person performing oral sex may allow HIV to enter their body.

See also:
http://aids.about.com/cs/safesex/a/oralsex.htm

And:
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/epiu-aepi/epi_update_may_04/13-eng.php
And:
http://www.hiv.ch/rubriken/epidx/transmis/oralsexdocfin.pdf
And:
http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102251988.html
And:
http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/communicable/hiv/publications/infograms/hivtransmission.aspx
 And:
http://www.avert.org/oral-sex.htm
 And:
http://www.natap.org/2003/oct/100903_5.htm
And:
1. Mastro TD, de Vincenzi I. Probabilities of sexual HIV-1 transmission. AIDS 1996, 10 (Suppl A): S75-S82.
Cited Here...

2. Ostrow DG, Di Franceisco WJ, Chmiel JS, Wagstaff DA, Wesch J. A case-control study of HIV-1 seroconversion and risk-related behaviours in the Chicago MACS/CCS cohort, 1984-1992. Am J Epidemiol 1995, 142:875-883.
Cited Here...

3. Williams DI, Stephenson JM, Hart GJ, Copas A, Johnson AM, Williams IG. A case-control study of HIV seroconversion in gay men 1988-1993: what are the current risk factors? Genitourin Med 1996, 72:193-196.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

4. Burcham JL, Tindall B, Marmor M, Cooper DA, Berry G, Penny R. Incidence and risk factors for HIV seroconversion in a cohort of Sydney homosexual men. Med J Aust 1989, 150:635-639.
Cited Here...

5. Osmond DH, Page K, Wiley J, Garrett K, Sheppard HW, Moss AR, et al. HIV infection in homosexual and bisexual men 18 to 29 years of age: the San Francisco Young Men's Study. Am J Public Health 1994, 84:1933-1937.
Cited Here... | PubMed | CrossRef

6. Page-Schafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJP. Sexual risk behaviour and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.
Cited Here...

7. Rothenberg RB, Scarlett M, del Rio C, Reznik D, O'Daniels C. Oral transmission of HIV. AIDS 1998, 12:2095-2105.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

8. Vittinghoff E, Douglas J, Judson F, McKirnan D, MacQueen K, Buchbinder SP. Per-contact risk of human immunodeficiency virus transmission between male sexual partners. Am J Epidemiol 1999, 150:306-311.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed

9. Dillon B, Hecht F, Swanson M, Goupil-Sormany I, Grant RM, Chesney MA, Kahn JO. Primary HIV infections associated with oral transmission. In: 7th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections. San Francisco, 2000 [Abstract 473].
Cited Here...

10. Hawkins DA. Oral sex and HIV transmission. Sex Transm Infect 2001, 77:307-308.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

11. Samuel MC, Hessol N, Shiboski S, Engel RR, Speed TP, Winkelstein W Jr. Factors associated with human immunodeficiency virus seroconversion in homosexual men in three San Francisco cohort studies, 1984-1989. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr 1993, 6:303-312.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed

12. Kippax S, Campbell D, Van de Ven P, Crawford J, Prestage G, Knox S, et al. Cultures of sexual adventurism as markers of HIV seroconversion: a case control study in a cohort of Sydney gay men. AIDS Care 1998, 10:677-688.
Cited Here... | PubMed | CrossRef

13. Keet IPM, Albrecht van Lent N, Sandfort TGM, Coutinho RA, van Griensven GJP. Orogenital sex and the transmission of HIV among homosexual men. AIDS 1992, 6:223-226.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

14. Page-Shafer K, Shiboski CH, Osmond DH, Dilley J, McFarland W, Shiboski SC, et al. Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men. AIDS 2002, 16:2350-2352.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed

15. Del Romero J, Marincovich B, Castilla J, GarcŪa S, Campo J, HernŠndo V, et al. Evaluating the risk of HIV transmission through unprotected orogenital sex [Research letter]. AIDS 2002, 16:1296-1297.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

16. Kippax S, Noble J, Prestage G, Crawford JM, Campbell D, Baxter D, et al. Sexual negotiation in the AIDS era: negotiated safety revisited. AIDS 1997, 11:191-197.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

17. Gokhale R, Hernon M, Ghosh A. Genital piercing and sexually transmitted infections [Letter]. Sex Transm Infect 2001, 77: 393-394.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 09:53:10 PM by Granny60 »

Offline ss2011

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #86 on: October 16, 2010, 09:22:23 PM »
there are no facts that you can get hiv from oral sex. no proof at all.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2010, 09:32:21 PM »
MR HALL:   I guess we established that during attendence. It's time for your oral.
CHER:   Excuse me?
MR HALL:   Your original oral. The topic is violence in the media.
CHER:   Oh!  (Cher approaches the podium)
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2010, 09:35:25 PM »
there are no facts that you can get hiv from oral sex. no proof at all.

And the proof you use to refute the above links is??????

Offline RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2010, 09:47:17 PM »
"The observation on thousand and thousand of observations is that HIV is not spread by oral sex (of any sort)."  DR HOOK

Edward W Hook, MD   
Male

Specialties: HIV Prevention, STDs

BS, Hobart & William Smith Colleges, Undergraduate 1972 - 1972
MD, Cornell University School of Medicine, Graduate 1976 - 1976
Medical Training University of Washington - Internship - 1976 - 1976
University of Washington - Residency - 1977 - 1980
University of Washington - Fellowship - 1980 - 1983


Interests: Microbiology, epidemiology
1992 - Present: Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology, University of Alabama at Birmingham
1992 - Present: Medical Director, STD Control Program, Jefferson County Department of Health
2002 - Present: Professor of Microbiology
More than 230 peer-reviewed original papers

More than 40 book chapters

Three books including Klausner, JD and Hook EW (Eds), Current Diagnosis & Treatment of Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Lange Medical Books/McGraw-Hill Medical Publishing, Feb. 2007




Granny60

  • Guest
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2010, 09:55:37 PM »
"The observation on thousand and thousand of observations is that HIV is not spread by oral sex (of any sort)."  DR HOOK

Edward W Hook, MD  
Male

Specialties: HIV Prevention, STDs

BS, Hobart & William Smith Colleges, Undergraduate 1972 - 1972
MD, Cornell University School of Medicine, Graduate 1976 - 1976
Medical Training University of Washington - Internship - 1976 - 1976
University of Washington - Residency - 1977 - 1980
University of Washington - Fellowship - 1980 - 1983


Interests: Microbiology, epidemiology
1992 - Present: Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology, University of Alabama at Birmingham
1992 - Present: Medical Director, STD Control Program, Jefferson County Department of Health
2002 - Present: Professor of Microbiology
More than 230 peer-reviewed original papers

More than 40 book chapters

Three books including Klausner, JD and Hook EW (Eds), Current Diagnosis & Treatment of Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Lange Medical Books/McGraw-Hill Medical Publishing, Feb. 2007





Ok, there is one opinion. Did you actually read any of the 24 links above in there entirety?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 09:58:02 PM by Granny60 »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2010, 10:02:11 PM »
Ok, there is one opinion. Did you actually read any of the 24 links above in there entirety?
How many would you like to see?

Granny60

  • Guest
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2010, 10:13:39 PM »
How many would you like to see?

My question was  DID YOU READ THEM?  One nice part about having a good education is that I can read and I DO read. I even manage to understand what I read.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2010, 10:24:23 PM »
My question was  DID YOU READ THEM?  One nice part about having a good education is that I can read and I DO read. I even manage to understand what I read.
Then I guess you need to get yourself updated on HIV transmissions. I really wouldn't expect you to know anymore than you do only being diagnosed for 3 years. In time you will learn the facts instead of theories and hypothesises by government agencies. Try reading scientific data. JK gave you a list to start with and when you're finished I can add somemore to the list.

Granny60

  • Guest
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2010, 10:51:16 PM »
Then I guess you need to get yourself updated on HIV transmissions. I really wouldn't expect you to know anymore than you do only being diagnosed for 3 years. In time you will learn the facts instead of theories and hypothesises by government agencies. Try reading scientific data. JK gave you a list to start with and when you're finished I can add somemore to the list.

Actually living in an area where there are few resources, I have done nothing  but study HIV for the  last three years including traveling to medical schools to purchase HIV textbooks and guide books from their book supply. The Textbook for Pediatric Aids care costs over $320.00,  Many of the other textooks cost $60 to 70 each. Have you made that much effort? Guides for HIV medicines can be purchased for as little as $29.xx.  A very good friend of mine, that has been a friend for over 20 years, son is a an HIV researcher. ( Just received a NICE grant for continued research  :))  My sister in-law teaches at a major medical school and she has provided me educational materials to study. I have a brother-in-law that took care of his partner till he died of HIV several years ago. I am a mentor to people infected with HIV so I deal with a lot of peoples issues of all persuasions  besides my own.  People who know me know that I do not live in the realm of baseless conjecture. I have been a guest lecturer at universities providing pictorial and written information on HIV and have been a participant is HIV case studies in 2 states. I have participated in assisting case managers and doctors in helping people with HIV.   Anyone that know me knows when I go on a crusade, political, business, legal, HIV, I do it with such passion that it is fully engaging, 24 hours a day. I have always been a force to be recconed with and HIV chose the wrong  person to mess with when it decided to fuck with me.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 10:57:46 PM by Granny60 »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2010, 10:56:35 PM »
Actually living in an area where there are few resources, I have done nothing  but study HIV for the  last three years including traveling to medical schools to purchase HIV textbooks and guide books from their book supply. A very good friend of mine, that has been a friend for over 20 years, son is a an HIV researcher. ( Just received a NICE grant for continued research  :))  My sister in-law teaches at a major medical school and she has provided me educational materials to study. I have a brother-in-law that took care of his partner till he died of HIV several years ago. I am a mentor to people infected with HIV so I deal with a lot of peoples issues of all persuasions  besides my own.  People who know me know that I do not live in the realm of baseless conjecture. I have been a guest lecturer at universities providing pictorial and written information on HIV and have been a participant is HIV case studies in 2 states. I have participated in assisting case managers and doctors in helping people with HIV.   Anyone that know me knows when I go on a crusade, political, business, legal, HIV, I do it with such passion that it is fully engaging, 24 hours a day. I have always been a force to be recconed with and HIV chose the wrong person person to mess with when it decided to fuck with me.

I'm not surprised to learn that you're a university lecturer. You use lots of complicated words in a very emphatic way.

This fellow is a university lecturer too. His name is Michael Behe, Michael thinks that a Cosmic Jewish Zombie Who is His Own Father designed everything in the whole universe and that Mr Charles Darwin was a big fat fibber.

Maybe you know Michael?

MtD

Offline phildinftlaudy

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  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2010, 11:00:44 PM »
Edith Bunker told me before her untimely death that oral sex was not a risk --- I believe the CDC may have had something to do with her death -- I'm still working various angles and will provide updates.  (By the way - any google searches on Edith Bunker, oral sex, and HIV have all been mysteriously removed -- could be the CIA - still investigated this - however, I fear that if I get too close to discovering the truth, I may be discredited - perhaps on an Internet Forum - so, be on the lookout) :o
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline ss2011

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  • Posts: 22
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2010, 11:44:30 PM »
if old grandma wants to think oral sex causes hiv, let her/him think so.  makes you look dumb.

Offline ss2011

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2010, 11:45:24 PM »
phil took the same dumb pills grandma did.  ;D

Offline phildinftlaudy

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  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2010, 11:46:46 PM »
phil took the same dumb pills grandma did.  ;D
SS -
I have not attacked you personally at all on here - but you seem to see fit to attack me on public thread and via PM -

both have been reported to adminstrators.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

 


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