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Author Topic: hiv infection by oral sex  (Read 21353 times)

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Offline tommy246

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hiv infection by oral sex
« on: October 07, 2010, 01:12:59 PM »
I have read many times on here that some posters are convinced they have caught hiv through oral sex as thats all they have done sexually i dont doubt them but they are always told that this is impossible  by some posters and mods alike.
So if thats all they have done sexually and have hiv it  clearly is possible . My veiws were strengthened  today by reading a comment to a question by Dr Gallant (well respected hiv specialist from johnshopkins hospital) who said even though it is very low risk it is possible.
I do believe its very unwise to deny this is possible however low the risk maybe.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline phildinftlaudy

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  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 02:01:40 PM »
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline JonE

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 02:06:59 PM »
I figured I was infected via random oral. But after reading a lot it seems much more likely that one of my Xes is just not being truthful about their current status. It's pretty much irreverent for me as I have it now. I pretty sure HIV isn't smart enough to care how I was infected. Unprotected oral is fun, but you can get all sorts of bugs just not hiv so much. Ymmv

Online Ann

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 02:19:00 PM »
I have read many times on here that some posters are convinced they have caught hiv through oral sex as thats all they have done sexually i dont doubt them but they are always told that this is impossible  by some posters and mods alike.
So if thats all they have done sexually and have hiv it  clearly is possible . My veiws were strengthened  today by reading a comment to a question by Dr Gallant (well respected hiv specialist from johnshopkins hospital) who said even though it is very low risk it is possible.
I do believe its very unwise to deny this is possible however low the risk maybe.

You've never seen a moderator say it was impossible to be infected through GIVING blowjobs.

What we do say is that the science of hiv transmission on a cellular level doesn't support this mode of transmission. We say that the serodiscordant studies don't support this mode of transmission either.

But we never say it is impossible. Improbable, highly unlikely, yes; impossible, no.

An example of where it could happen is if the person giving the blowjob has absolutely terrible oral health and the person being blown was recently infected and had a sky-high viral load. But that situation isn't the norm.

GETTING a blowjob isn't a risk and yes, I'd say it was as close to impossible as you can get. You'd have to get blown by someone with a mouth absolutely FULL of blood for there to be any sort of risk.

Why do I get the feeling that you've only posted this thread to start an argument? If it starts heading that way, it will be shut down before you can say blowjob.

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline newt

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 02:23:57 PM »
BLOWJOB (there, I said it, bad boy newt)

Now playing: Hand in Glove, The Smiths <<< is this not a German art film?
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline phildinftlaudy

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  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 02:27:01 PM »
BLOWJOB (there, I said it, bad boy newt)

Now playing: Hand in Glove, The Smiths <<< is this not a German art film?

I was actually going to go for the much abbreviated version:
BJ
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Online Ann

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 02:29:32 PM »
Here are some quotes from JK where he has done all the legwork and presented details...

The quajtification we use at AIDSMEDS is based on three distinct and separate studies conducted over the course of two decades with serodiscordasnt couples. We do not rely on anecdotal evidence insofar as HIV transmission is concerned, especially not now, where the current state of the scientific and epidemiological art is as advanced as it is. With more people living longer and healthier lives, a large enough collection of serodiscordant couples has finally emerged to create blind studies where HIV transmission routes can be studied with scientific quantification.

Here are some of the  scientific findings.


No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan

Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.



Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117

Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.
link to original post

Oral Dis.   2006   May   ;12   (3):219-28 16700731   
Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update.
J   Campo , M A   Perea , J   Del Romero , J   Cano , V   Hernando , A   Bascones
Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and many other viruses can be isolated in blood and body fluids, including saliva, and can be transmitted by genital-genital and especially anal-genital sexual activity. The risk of transmission of HIV via oral sexual practices is very low. Unlike other mucosal areas of the body, the oral cavity appears to be an extremely uncommon transmission route for HIV. We present a review of available evidence on the oral-genital transmission of HIV and analyse the factors that act to protect oral tissues from infection, thereby reducing the risk of HIV transmission by oral sex. Among these factors we highlight the levels of HIV RNA in saliva, presence of fewer CD4+ target cells, presence of IgA antibodies in saliva, presence of other infections in the oral cavity and the endogenous salivary antiviral factors lysozyme, defensins, thrombospondin and secretory leucocyte protease inhibitor (SLPI). Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219-228.

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/2AF5DF5C-ECEF-4854-80BA-09F86B483A02.asp

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102255339.html

The Romero study used male/female relationships almost exclusively, with either male or female partner positive. The viral loads varied widely, as did the treatment options (or lack thereof) during the ten years of the study.

The Page-Shafer "HOT" study used homosexual males with different partners, studied both receptive and insertive oral sex.

The abstract of the study is also here:

http://www.aegis.com/conferences/iac/2002/TuPeC4872.html

An updated abstract of the Romero study is in:

Oral Dis.   2006 May   ;12   (3):219-28 16700731

An earlier Page-Shafer study regarding oral HIv transmission:

Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men.
AIDS. 16(17):2350-2352, November 22, 2002.
Page-Shafer, Kimberly a,b; Shiboski, Caroline H b; Osmond, Dennis H c; Dilley, James d; McFarland, Willi e; Shiboski, Steve C c; Klausner, Jeffrey D e; Balls, Joyce a; Greenspan, Deborah b; Greenspan, John S b

Other relevant studies, many of which reference either/both Romero and/or Page-Shafer, among others:

http://www.aidsonline.com/pt/re/aids/fulltext.00002030-199904160-00021.htm;jsessionid=G1nGq7PY37yynzdYy7CHvpqRwHKzNFS7J3gPvGYzGKp6Tz2nvFdx!1330140564!181195629!8091!-1?nav=search&searchid=1&index=21&results=1&count=10

Note the methodology for the Page-Shafer and Romero studies, and how they differ significantly from earlier studies which relied on post-infection patient report. In my opinion, that methodology dramatically increases the validity of the report.
link to original post

Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as 100% certainty. Variables, some of them beyond our current comprehension, exist to make that so.

In the history of the HIV pandemic, we have learned much about human behavior and the analysis of risk. Prior to the long-term studies of serodiscordant relationships, we relied on the following for HIV transmission science:

a) in vitro study, where specific cells were found to be vulnerable to HIV infection. This is the most sound science of all, I posit, because it is directly and continually observable. However, it does not always translate to real-life experience, as a multitude of variables (close to chaos theory, though I do not subscribe) are in play during each individual act.

b) in vivo using SIV, SHIV, or in chimps and other primates. HIV. This isuseful in a slightly different way, as observing the organisms under controlled circumstances is possible, yet variables are introduced that come relatively close to human experience. Sadly, primates react differently than humans when infected with SIV, SHIV, and HIV. Chimps, for example, almost always (I believe science has encountered two exceptions so far) seroconvert, then revert to negative at a later date.

C) Documentation of reported sexual activities. This is perhaps the weakest science regrding HIV, or for that matter, any sexual activity. It is not, for ethical reasons, possible to observe the subjects 24/7 for years, and it is not possible to experiment with people using live HIV (such as putting active virus into the mouth to see if indeed HIV can infect orally).

For many years, scientists and researchers relied on interviews with infected persons and, when possible, their partners. While this went far to advance transmission vector theory (especially in terms of ruling out vectors, such as casual contact), it relied on patient report. As you are, I am sure, aware, patient report is notoriously unreliable - particularly when dealing with socially stigmatized issues such as sexuality, homosexuality, and anal sex. Moreover, when a person is under the influence of mind-altering substances such as alcohol or other drugs, s/he may do things that s/he simply does not recall, or recalls far differently.

The groundbreaking Romero study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12045500 used that unreliability to an advantage that had not been considered before. It followed serodiscordant couples who engaged in sexual activity over a long period of time (ten years) but used condoms solely for vaginal and anal intercourse. Dr. Kimberly Page Shafer conducted similar studies among gay men in the US, and found the same conclusion.

No incidents of transmission through either insertive or receptive oral sex were found.

Obviously, these studies contradicted earlier ones, which were based on patient report after infection. A resulting round-table discussion amongst scientist and researchers reveals that this is an ongoing controversy.

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=pr-rr-05

However, the hard science, the verifiable science, supports Page Shafer and Romero completely.

Recent discoveries such as the fact that there are very few receptor cells in the oral cavity, the fact that the Bartholin's glands (also called Bartholin glands or greater vestibular glands in females do not carry HIV in greater concentration than sweat or tears, leads to the conclusion that getting HIV from cunnilingus is as close to impossible as science will allow.

Even menstrual fluids, which can and do contain infectious blood, have never been documented to transmit HIV. The fact that there has been exactly zero documented cases of female to female HIV supports this.

HIV is an extremely fragile virus, not nearly as hardy as bacterial STDs. When exposed to temperature and pH changes, the elements of the virus that attach to receptor cells almost immediately become unstable. It is unable to infect another cell without these elements (outside of carefully controlled in vivoexperimentation.

Nothing in life can be called 100 percent certain, scientifically. No promise beyond a doubt that an asteroid will not hit the earth tomorrow. No promise that human mortality will always be a constant. no promise that you will not be the first in the documented history of the HIV pandemic to become infected through the activities you describe.

However, if that happens, and I certainly hope it does not, you would be under extreme scrutiny and study, as your physiology would appear to conflict with the recorded history of human physiology as regards HIV vulnerability. It could even lead to a cure.

This site is the only one in which I participate, specifically because it does not speculate into the realm of the theoretical unnecessarily. It does not give Las Vegas-style odds of infection because to do so would be ludicrous. It does not cover it's collective ass by hedging, and it does not promote stigma and fear by contradicting itself.

This site, thanks in large part to Tim Horn's own scientific and research expertise, uses first-tiered peer-reviewed science with near exclusivity. And science changes, it evolves. What was considered a risk in 1981 was certainly not considered so in 1991. Now, almost twenty years past that, we have refined transmission theory much further. No new vectors have been added, and several have been dismissed.

I hope this has been of some service. I know that as a researcher yourself, you would appreciate the long version.
link to original post

Well, you asked! I hope you take the time to read what I've posted.



edited to fix some minor formatting issues
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 02:39:02 PM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Online Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 02:33:58 PM »
BLOWJOB (there, I said it, bad boy newt)

Now playing: Hand in Glove, The Smiths <<< is this not a German art film?


I was actually going to go for the much abbreviated version:
BJ

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline emeraldize

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 04:44:13 PM »
Love that facepalm caption " foolness "

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 05:59:09 PM »
BLOWJOB (there, I said it, bad boy newt)



"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 01:15:38 AM »
As Newt has said before, the odd one-off that seems to be the exception that proves the rule also allows for the loophole through which many pass.

If oral sex were as likely a route for HIV transmission as this forums' members state (at least upon entering) then it would rival Anal sex as a vector.

Which is why patient report cannot be trusted when so many societal and emotional variables are at stake when discussing oral sex. Me, I prefer the science. And the science points to (giving) hardly ever, if ever, and (receiving) never.

If we can get people to wear their goddamned condoms for anal and vaginal sex, we would stop HIV. Period.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 09:09:08 AM »
You've never seen a moderator say it was impossible to be infected through GIVING blowjobs.

What we do say is that the science of hiv transmission on a cellular level doesn't support this mode of transmission. We say that the serodiscordant studies don't support this mode of transmission either.

But we never say it is impossible. Improbable, highly unlikely, yes; impossible, no.

An example of where it could happen is if the person giving the blowjob has absolutely terrible oral health and the person being blown was recently infected and had a sky-high viral load. But that situation isn't the norm.

GETTING a blowjob isn't a risk and yes, I'd say it was as close to impossible as you can get. You'd have to get blown by someone with a mouth absolutely FULL of blood for there to be any sort of risk.

Why do I get the feeling that you've only posted this thread to start an argument? If it starts heading that way, it will be shut down before you can say blowjob.


#1 on: Yesterday at 03:27:59 PM Ľ  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ann this is your comment from yesterday on the am i infected thread, you seem to contradict yourself, i havent started this thread for an argument its a genuine point i am raising . This is your reply to  bagera,quote

It doesn't matter where the woman is from, it only matters what you did or had done to you. And nothing you did or had done to you put you at risk for hiv infection.

You did the right thing and used a condom for vaginal intercourse. Condoms have been proven to prevent hiv infection.

Getting a blowjob, with or without a condom, is not a risk for hiv infection. Not only is saliva not infectious, but it also contains over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv and render it unable to infect. Not one person has ever been infected through getting a blowjob and you won't be the first. unquote

Now thats a huge statement to make that not one person has ever been infected getting a blow job when specialists such as dr gallant clearly state it is possible.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 09:11:01 AM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Online Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2010, 09:24:21 AM »
#1 on: Yesterday at 03:27:59 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ann this is your comment from yesterday on the am i infected thread, you seem to contradict yourself, i havent started this thread for an argument its a genuine point i am raising . This is your reply to  bagera,quote

It doesn't matter where the woman is from, it only matters what you did or had done to you. And nothing you did or had done to you put you at risk for hiv infection.

You did the right thing and used a condom for vaginal intercourse. Condoms have been proven to prevent hiv infection.

Getting a blowjob, with or without a condom, is not a risk for hiv infection. Not only is saliva not infectious, but it also contains over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv and render it unable to infect. Not one person has ever been infected through getting a blowjob and you won't be the first. unquote

Now thats a huge statement to make that not one person has ever been infected getting a blow job when specialists such as dr gallant clearly state it is possible.



If you read anything I posted above, you'd see that what I've written is based in science and I stand by what I've written. GETTING a blowjob is NO RISK.

GIVING a blowjob is a theoretical risk that isn't supported by science on the cellular level nor by the serodiscordant studies.

However if the GIVER has bad oral health and the person being blown has a sky-high viral load, there is a small possibility.

It ain't rocket science.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2010, 09:26:39 AM »
Sorry, but there have been as many credibly documented cases of people getting infected through getting a blowjob as there have been cases of peopel getting infected through cunnilingus. Exactly zero.

If you want to parse "theoretical risk" you can. But in the AM I forum we focus on documented and credible scientific study. And Dr. gallant does NOT represent nor does he seem to reliably state the cutting edge of HIV transmission theory. Read TheBody.com over the past three years and watch him contradict himself over and over.

We have the science to back up our assertions. I have posted it time and again. I am not even sure why this is being discussed, unless there are new studies of which I am unaware.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2010, 09:35:16 AM »
Ok i will agree to disagree but im with Dr Gallant.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Online Ann

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  • Posts: 28,134
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 09:38:47 AM »
Which time are you with Dr Gallant, the time he says getting a blowjob is a risk or the time he says getting a blowjob isn't a risk? As JK points out, the man contradicts himself.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 09:43:59 AM »
Ok i will agree to disagree but im with Dr Gallant.

It really isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of following the science, rather than the scientist. Dr Gallant is not a first-tiered peer-reviewed scientific study. He is a doctor, and one who has never published any articles regardign HIv transmission vectors of which I am aware. Moreover, he has steadfastly refused to address Page-Shafer and Romero, and their long-running studies of serodiscordant couples.

I certainly do not think I can change your "opinion," but as Andy points out, feelings are not facts. And opinions not grounded in science are not valid, though they might "feel" real.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline loop78

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 10:17:13 AM »
Anyway, the question Dr. Gallant answers talks about "receptive oral sex" = giving a blowjob.  ;)

We all know insertive oral sex, getting one, is a no risk activity.

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2010, 11:03:32 AM »
Anyway, the question Dr. Gallant answers talks about "receptive oral sex" = giving a blowjob.  ;)

Yes.

That's something that a lot of people misinterpret. Doctors usually talk about receptive or insertive oral sex and it can lead to confusion.

Receptive is giving a blowjob because you receive a penis into your mouth. It isn't receptive in the sense that you received a blowjob.

Insertive is getting a blowjob because you are inserting your penis into someone's mouth.

And it really drives me nuts the way some websites will discuss "oral sex" without differentiating between the four different types.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 11:14:59 AM »
The bottom line for me is that even taking into account the theoretical aspect of receptive oral sex, it in no way lines up with the volume of individual who make these claims repeatedly on this forum (and others) -- there are other "issues" going on.

Unfortunately I have not renewed my psychiatry certification or I would offer up some theories.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 11:50:43 AM »
HIV transmission orally is very rare, but I do know one person from Nevada that was infected in the manner as a soley oral person (male>male), one here in Missouri (female>male) where third party involvement was ruled out, and a couple years back read a research paper about a transmission in the U.K. where the couple(male>male) was oral only and they did all types of phenogenetic testing to rule out the possibility of third party involvement to help confirm that transmission was only between the oral couple. Rare, yes, impossible, no.

Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2010, 11:56:50 AM »
The ONLY way that I could have contracted the virus was either through performing oral sex on a woman (the only one I haven't been able to locate), sharing a straw snorting coke...or I somehow picked it up while donating blood plasma at a shady clinic in Philly for $50. I don't believe that I could have picked it up from getting a blowjob.
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Offline Grasshopper

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2010, 02:49:54 PM »
The ONLY way that I could have contracted the virus was either through performing oral sex on a woman (the only one I haven't been able to locate), sharing a straw snorting coke...or I somehow picked it up while donating blood plasma at a shady clinic in Philly for $50. I don't believe that I could have picked it up from getting a blowjob.

Are you saying that you donated blood..they extracted the plasma and returned the rest of your blood and the returned blood got infected during the process ?

Did you sue the clinic ?

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2010, 03:35:09 PM »
Can you get HIV "sharing a straw snorting coke"?  If so, I must have been infected five years before I thought I was.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2010, 04:45:08 PM »
Can you get HIV "sharing a straw snorting coke"?  If so, I must have been infected five years before I thought I was.

That vector was declared a theoretical risk years ago, and to the best of my ability to research, not a single case of HIV transmission has been reliably documented from that vector.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2010, 11:47:18 PM »
Are you saying that you donated blood..they extracted the plasma and returned the rest of your blood and the returned blood got infected during the process ?

Did you sue the clinic ?

I listed that as one of the ways that I may have contracted the virus. When I returned to the clinic to donate (get $50) a second time, I was told that I couldn't donate because the "protein levels" in my blood were to high. This was in late 96 and I wasn't diagnosed until 2 years later (Halloween 98). I had oral sex with the one woman I cannot locate to date, in 96 prior to moving to Philly were the clinic was located. But...there was another woman I met from a swingers ad in 96 after returning from Philly...that also entailed oral sex. With any other partners between 96 and 98...condoms were used and I know for a fact that I didn't contract it from oral sex with them, because they all tested negative. I do know that I contracted the virus in that 2 year time frame, because I had donated blood regularly up until about April of 1996...and had never been notified of any blood borne virus. So...

I don't spend any time trying to figure it out anymore...
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Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2010, 01:57:21 PM »
so you think you got it from oral sex then ? How certain are you percentage wise
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2010, 03:13:41 PM »
so you think you got it from oral sex then ? How certain are you percentage wise


99%
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Offline mecch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2010, 04:11:29 PM »
Seems extremely rare that giving a blow job or oral sex to a woman results in HIV infection but I think its possible. Its just that HIV educators and doctors have to fight endless endless fears about this so its just easiest and most effective to not go that tiny little possibility and give credence to unfounded fears.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2010, 05:29:24 PM »
Seems extremely rare that giving a blow job or oral sex to a woman results in HIV infection but I think its possible. Its just that HIV educators and doctors have to fight endless endless fears about this so its just easiest and most effective to not go that tiny little possibility and give credence to unfounded fears.

Well it's either that or the blood bank. I'm basically writing off the possibility of transmission through getting a blow job, if that makes anybody feel more warm and fuzzy.
when shit has value...the poor will be born without assholes...

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2010, 06:47:17 PM »
Well it's either that or the blood bank. I'm basically writing off the possibility of transmission through getting a blow job, if that makes anybody feel more warm and fuzzy.

You were not infected at the blood bank.

MtD


Offline cityboy

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2010, 07:47:55 PM »
If someone were undiagnosed, no taking meds, with a sky high viral load and gave someone deep throat oral and in the process suctioned so hard that open blisters were caused.  Would this be a way transmission could occur?

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2010, 07:51:43 PM »
If someone were undiagnosed, no taking meds, with a sky high viral load and gave someone deep throat oral and in the process suctioned so hard that open blisters were caused.  Would this be a way transmission could occur?

Surely you cannot be serious. This fails on so many levels as to be laughable.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2010, 07:51:52 PM »
If someone were undiagnosed, no taking meds, with a sky high viral load and gave someone deep throat oral and in the process suctioned so hard that open blisters were caused.  Would this be a way transmission could occur?

Not according to the science. The hypothetical risk of transmission during oral sex applies to a person performing unprotected oral on an HIV positive man. The oral would have to result in ejaculation in the receptive partner's gob.

As has been said in eleventy squillion previous posts, no reliable documented case of transmission in this manner has been seen.

MtD

Offline newt

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2010, 08:05:04 PM »
OK

 human biology, immunity and sucking cock...

When you're fucking someone's throat, it's gotta be deep like tonsil deep, cos tonsils have special cells which ferry off alien organisms to present them to the immune system for analysis and destruction (hey ho, trojan horse...), and the viral load of the dibber needs to be sky high, like millions (like new infection perhaps, hard to tell this) to overcome the natural defenses offered by saliva, and the genetic susceptibility of the swallower needs to be high (there is no way to test for this at present) to overcome the natural defenses of saliva. Other cofactors, specifically immune activation which sends special white blood cells to the tonsils to defend (whoohoo, failed body, gotcha) may need to be present (we don't know, just surmise). Gums, bleeding, etc is beside the point (wrong cells, blood flows out not it).

Since acquisition of HIV by receptive oral sex is a marginal event public health wise, this ain't gonna get more researched, people just have to lump it that it happens sometimes (rarely, unfortunately) and it's not the main event, however personally tragic.

- matt


Edited for spelling
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 08:09:30 PM by newt »
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Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2010, 12:27:52 AM »
So am I to believe that I'm the only person to statistically contract the virus through oral sex (cunnilingus)? Does the medical community just write off the possibility of this form of transmission and file it under "The patient is obviously full of shit, and refuses to admit they are on the DL"?

I'll admit to "experimenting" and having anal sex once when I was about 21. But to be diagnosed positive 15 years later (Donating blood regularly all that time)...would be like the longest gestation period in history, wouldn't it?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 12:34:03 AM by klipsch »
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2010, 12:45:10 AM »
I'll admit to "experimenting" and having anal sex once when I was about 21. But to be diagnosed positive 15 years later (Donating blood regularly all that time)...would be like the longest gestation period in history, wouldn't it?

That would make you a very special person. 

I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2010, 12:57:58 AM »
That would make you a very special person. 



How so? I mean seriously. I was always sure that I was disease free, because they always test donated blood for infections and such. The only reason I even found out about being positive, was because of the blood I donated for my own hip replacement surgery. I was actually a bit peeved at the blood bank for not letting me know during the 2 weeks between my first donation and the day of my surgery (I was told the blood tested positive for HIV antibodies 10 minutes before surgery). If I was really sexually promiscuous, a lot of people could have become infected during those two weeks.
when shit has value...the poor will be born without assholes...

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2010, 01:27:17 AM »
Maybe you "anal experimented" later on but forgot because you'd passed out?  Happens to me all of the time.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Fondoo

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2010, 01:46:17 AM »
Eddited for disagreeing with the Holy and Sacred Medical establishment who are never wrong and above corruption  :P
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 02:11:46 AM by Fondoo »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2010, 01:47:34 AM »
My x-wife was diagnosed at 22 years old with 0 t-cells. She was a sexual prude and had two boy friends she practiced safe sex with before she married her first husband who was found to be negative. She did work at the Boston DMV that had to be condemned as it was found to be a "sick building" apparently fire proofing agents were leaking into the ventelation and was making people sick in strange ways.For me that argues that AIDS can be a toxicological condition and not just a STD but that is just my opinion.

It's also a denialist opinion.

MtD

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2010, 01:51:45 AM »
lots o' wow
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Offline Fondoo

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2010, 02:05:58 AM »
That picture from Rev.Moon made me laugh. At the age of 12 or 13 I was pretty naive and hearing about blowjobs at school one day I went home and gave it a try on myself. I blew on it and nothing happend I was so disappointed. Shortly after I discovered masturbation which worked out real well. The problem with that was my Catholic parents telling me if I kept it up it would turn me into a crazy rapest lol.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 02:13:46 AM by Fondoo »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2010, 03:03:42 AM »


    So you think your ex got it from a dirty AC filter?  And you got it from cunnilingus?  Isn't it like totally possible you caught it from sniffing the same dirty filter?  Oh Btw, I see you practice Buddhism, do you know anything about what really happened to David carradine?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2010, 10:42:01 AM »
Maybe you "anal experimented" later on but forgot because you'd passed out?  Happens to me all of the time.

Never happened again. And I'll put this out there right now. Kidding is kidding. But all kidding aside...if I'm going to respect other members and take what they say as truth, I expect the same. I've been dealing with HIV and the side effects of medications for 12 years now. It was mentioned in another thread that I've been a member here for some time but never posted. Now that I am contributing to open discussions, that I feel I have something that may be of interest...I would like to be given the benefit of doubt that I really don't have any reason to lie or exaggerate my circumstances.

Thank you   ;)
 
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Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2010, 11:12:27 AM »
Never happened again. And I'll put this out there right now. Kidding is kidding. But all kidding aside...if I'm going to respect other members and take what they say as truth, I expect the same. I've been dealing with HIV and the side effects of medications for 12 years now. It was mentioned in another thread that I've been a member here for some time but never posted. Now that I am contributing to open discussions, that I feel I have something that may be of interest...I would like to be given the benefit of doubt that I really don't have any reason to lie or exaggerate my circumstances.

Thank you   ;)
  
Hi Klipsch i can understand exactly what you are saying ,sadly this forum has gone down hill recently as there seems to be a little clique of posters who generally try to be little fellow posters and destroy threads with childish bitchy comments and the mods seem to turn a blind eye to it for reasons known to them. Its sad really as i think some people are put of from asking questions, as if you dare to step out of line of the general thought of the clique they just try and ridicule you.The one trying to ridicule you is the most ignored person on the board so i wouldnt worry about it ,regards tommy
P.S. I was th OP of this thread and was even warned by ann for trying to start an argument with an innocent question, whereas i was just conveying my observations of what i had read previously on the forum and elsewhere trying to get some clarification.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 11:24:58 AM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Online Ann

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2010, 11:29:40 AM »

P.S. I was th OP of this thread and was even warned by ann for trying to start an argument with an innocent question, whereas i was just conveying my observations of what i had read previously on the forum and elsewhere trying to get some clarification.

I warned you about trying to start an argument because your OP contained false accusations.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2010, 11:34:35 AM »
QUOTE : Getting a blowjob, with or without a condom, is not a risk for hiv infection.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline bocker3

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2010, 11:47:33 AM »
QUOTE : Getting a blowjob, with or without a condom, is not a risk for hiv infection.

What's you point here?  you've quoted a truth.  GETTING a blowjob is safe -- GIVING one is where there is some risk.

You keep repeating the same stuff over and over.  You start threads that YOU KNOW will cause drama, then you whine and claim victim (and bring up the ubiquitous "clique" or "cabal") when the drama unfolds. 

You like to say things like, "you can't bring anything up that goes against the "clique", when in fact -- you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing.  If folks don't agree with you, you go nuts and claim victimhood.  I saw this very same behavior from my daughter when she was a teenager.  Fortunately, she grew up -- maybe it's time for you to do the same.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2010, 02:28:31 PM »
Hi Klipsch i can understand exactly what you are saying ,sadly this forum has gone down hill recently as there seems to be a little clique of posters who generally try to be little fellow posters and destroy threads with childish bitchy comments and the mods seem to turn a blind eye to it for reasons known to them. Its sad really as i think some people are put of from asking questions, as if you dare to step out of line of the general thought of the clique they just try and ridicule you.The one trying to ridicule you is the most ignored person on the board so i wouldnt worry about it ,regards tommy
P.S. I was th OP of this thread and was even warned by ann for trying to start an argument with an innocent question, whereas i was just conveying my observations of what i had read previously on the forum and elsewhere trying to get some clarification.

Recently? I have been fiercely advocating for a science-based forum since I joined in 2004.

I will never, EVER let non-scientific stuff slip through without at least commenting on it. I do not want people perusing these forums without signing up or speaking up to have the impression that first-tiered peer-reviewed science applies to some of the claims made here.

Yes it has made me unwelcome to many folks. I am sure I am on "ignore" for a lot of people. And Heaven help me, I cannot feel comfortable talking about my own issues here because of this scrutiny. Such is the price for being an advocate of science.

Sorry, Tommy, I cannot let your assertions go without refutation. This forum, and the integrity of same. means too much to me.


"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Online Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2010, 02:57:55 PM »
Hi Klipsch i can understand exactly what you are saying ,sadly this forum has gone down hill recently as there seems to be a little clique of posters who generally try to be little fellow posters and destroy threads with childish bitchy comments and the mods seem to turn a blind eye to it for reasons known to them. Its sad really as i think some people are put of from asking questions, as if you dare to step out of line of the general thought of the clique they just try and ridicule you.The one trying to ridicule you is the most ignored person on the board so i wouldnt worry about it ,regards tommy
P.S. I was th OP of this thread and was even warned by ann for trying to start an argument with an innocent question, whereas i was just conveying my observations of what i had read previously on the forum and elsewhere trying to get some clarification.

I warned you about trying to start an argument because your OP contained false accusations.

Recently? I have been fiercely advocating for a science-based forum since I joined in 2004.

I will never, EVER let non-scientific stuff slip through without at least commenting on it. I do not want people perusing these forums without signing up or speaking up to have the impression that first-tiered peer-reviewed science applies to some of the claims made here.

Yes it has made me unwelcome to many folks. I am sure I am on "ignore" for a lot of people. And Heaven help me, I cannot feel comfortable talking about my own issues here because of this scrutiny. Such is the price for being an advocate of science.

Sorry, Tommy, I cannot let your assertions go without refutation. This forum, and the integrity of same. means too much to me.

I've about had it with your smearing this forum, from the members to the moderators, simply because you do not get your way. If you had posted your claim, substantiated by actual research, I doubt you would have received the replies that you did. What you seem to be missing is the understanding that we do our best here, to always tell the truth regarding HIV, as we know it, because of scientific peer-reviewed research. We also maintain these forums for everyone and that includes readers who never post. If we are to be effective we must challenge false information, otherwise we are not doing our job.

We have members here who have incredible knowledge regarding the science of HIV and they work very hard, scanning research etc., to insure we present the most recent scientific findings. Members are replying to your false assertions and that is how the forum is supposed to work. There is no clique here, comprised of members who take joy in stifling conversation. Instead, there are members who monitor the threads to answer questions honestly, based on science and if you had really read the replies here, you would see that nobody was attacking you. They were attacking your assertions that were incorrect.

You really need to work at showing members some respect and to stop whining every time you do not get your way. You are acting like a child, so do not be surprised when you are treated as such.

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2010, 04:43:06 PM »
Stop getting your knickers in a twist jkintal2 i was refering to ms pissilia ignored by 19 members your way behind your only ignored by 9.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 04:45:29 PM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2010, 04:44:22 PM »
Stop getting your knickers in a twist i was refering to ms pissilia ignored by 19 members your way behind your only ignored by 9.

Now now, Thomas. There's no need to be cranky. :)

MtD

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2010, 04:50:25 PM »
I've about had it with your smearing this forum, from the members to the moderators, simply because you do not get your way. If you had posted your claim, substantiated by actual research, I doubt you would have received the replies that you did. What you seem to be missing is the understanding that we do our best here, to always tell the truth regarding HIV, as we know it, because of scientific peer-reviewed research. We also maintain these forums for everyone and that includes readers who never post. If we are to be effective we must challenge false information, otherwise we are not doing our job.

We have members here who have incredible knowledge regarding the science of HIV and they work very hard, scanning research etc., to insure we present the most recent scientific findings. Members are replying to your false assertions and that is how the forum is supposed to work. There is no clique here, comprised of members who take joy in stifling conversation. Instead, there are members who monitor the threads to answer questions honestly, based on science and if you had really read the replies here, you would see that nobody was attacking you. They were attacking your assertions that were incorrect.

You really need to work at showing members some respect and to stop whining every time you do not get your way. You are acting like a child, so do not be surprised when you are treated as such.

Im not smearing anybody just telling a few home truths it would be nice if people could respect posters questions however naive they might seem and respond in an adult manor instead of  just giving smart arse bitchy comments ,my vitamin thread being the perfect example.
And by the way i wasnt making a claim merely offering my opinion upon what i have read many times on here and also commenting on dr gallants opinion which i value alot more than yours.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 04:54:49 PM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Online Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2010, 05:06:59 PM »
Im not smearing anybody just telling a few home truths it would be nice if people could respect posters questions however naive they might seem and respond in an adult manor instead of  just giving smart arse bitchy comments ,my vitamin thread being the perfect example.
And by the way i wasnt making a claim merely offering my opinion upon what i have read many times on here and also commenting on dr gallants opinion which i value alot more than yours.

So which is it? Are you telling a few home truths or stating your opinion? You cannot be doing both. So which statement is a lie? Inquiring minds want to know.

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2010, 05:12:31 PM »
God this is tedious im of to bed ,you try and twist everything to suit your agenda , the few home truths comment refer to the bitcyness thats all to common on here now move on man.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Online Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2010, 05:16:11 PM »
Oh, now I have an agenda? What would that be? Inquiring minds still want to know.

Online Jeff G

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2010, 05:40:29 PM »
God this is tedious im of to bed ,you try and twist everything to suit your agenda , the few home truths comment refer to the bitcyness thats all to common on here now move on man.

Pot calling the kettle black . Its your agenda and bad attitude that needs adjusting .

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2010, 05:54:11 PM »
ms pissilia

tut tut dear.  Name calling is very bad form. ::)
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2010, 05:59:25 PM »
It seems the original stated purpose of this thread was to discuss the subject of HIV infection via oral sex.

Please confine your comments to that if you want to say something. If the thread just continues down snapping and snarking lane I'm going to lock it.

Andy Velez

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2010, 09:16:22 PM »
QUOTE : Getting a blowjob, with or without a condom, is not a risk for hiv infection.

It's true, deal with it.

AND I've posted studies to back up what I've said. YOU cannot say the same.

Condoms are a girl's best friend

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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

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Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2010, 02:11:50 AM »
Maybe you "anal experimented" later on but forgot because you'd passed out?  Happens to me all of the time.

Killifoile my final word ,Klipsch took offence to the comment quoted above by priscila is it useful ,informative, no its rude,disrespectful  and a perfect example of unhelpful bitchiness ,hence my reply to klipsch what dont you understand.
p.s i see the clique have arrived lol.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 02:19:06 AM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline komnaes

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2010, 04:27:37 AM »
Consider, from a HIV science perspective:

1. There are a number of studies attempting to scientifically assess the risk of HIV transmission via receiving oral sex, including but not limiting to what were previously quoted in this thread, and they all point to the fact that the risk is only theoretical (which simply means it's possible in theory but cannot be proven conclusively that it in real life does/can occur)

2. There are many studies pointing to the conclusive fact that saliva virtually never carries any infectious HIV at all (see Shugars DC, Sweet SP, Malamud D, Kazmi S, Page-Shafer K, Challacombe SJ (2002) Saliva and inhibition of HIV-1 infection: molecular mechanisms. Oral Diseases 8: 169-175 Suppl. 2 2002; Baron S, Poast J, Cloyd MW (1999) Why is HIV rarely transmitted by oral secretions? Saliva can disrupt orally shed, infected leukocytes. Archives of Internal Medicine 159 (3): 303-310)

Since, from my observation (as I cannot speak for the mods), these forums relay on these scientific studies instead of "personal" stories, I would simply suggest that for those who claim they got infected, beyond all doubt, from one incident of receiving oral sex (i.e. thereby ruling out all other possibilities) volunteer themselves for scientific revaluations and studies. The reason being that if these alleged infections did indeed occur, can be verified scientifically and published in creditable scientific journals, I am sure these forums would consider them in the future to determine whether the current position should be changed.

Just think of the contribution you can do to HIV transmission science!
Aug 07 Diagnosed
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Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
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Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
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Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2010, 06:53:59 AM »
You've never seen a moderator say it was impossible to be infected through GIVING blowjobs.

What we do say is that the science of hiv transmission on a cellular level doesn't support this mode of transmission. We say that the serodiscordant studies don't support this mode of transmission either.

But we never say it is impossible. Improbable, highly unlikely, yes; impossible, no.

An example of where it could happen is if the person giving the blowjob has absolutely terrible oral health and the person being blown was recently infected and had a sky-high viral load. But that situation isn't the norm.

GETTING a blowjob isn't a risk and yes, I'd say it was as close to impossible as you can get. You'd have to get blown by someone with a mouth absolutely FULL of blood for there to be any sort of risk.

Why do I get the feeling that you've only posted this thread to start an argument? If it starts heading that way, it will be shut down before you can say blowjob.


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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2010, 06:55:44 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

ďNeither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Online Dachshund

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2010, 07:17:13 AM »
Stop getting your knickers in a twist jkintal2 i was refering to ms pissilia ignored by 19 members your way behind your only ignored by 9.

Honey, check your profile.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 07:29:12 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Basquo

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2010, 08:37:24 AM »
Honey, check your profile.

Good eye for detail, Dachs!

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2010, 01:26:19 PM »
Honey, check your profile.

Interesting:

Name:   tommy246
Posts:   422 (0.777 per day)
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Ignored by:   29 members
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline mpositive

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2010, 08:40:07 AM »
Well, this is an interesting thread.  When I was diagnosed, I asked one of the doctors at Rockefeller University about this.  I was so certain I got infected giving this woman oral sex and not having unprotected sex with her.  The doctor said to me that it was much more likely that I got infected by having unprotected sex with her.  Still, I question it in my mind.  It just seems to me that getting infected, for a guy, through male to female intercourse, is so freaking unlikely, that it had to be me giving her oral.  Mind you, I stayed down there for awhile....  :)
Now, going forward, I would like to think that it is safe to give oral to a woman....because i do love it so, but, I am still confused. 

The "physics" of it all, just seems so unlikely. 

BTW, I actually tried to convince myself that I may have gotten it from colonoscopy a week later.  Yes, I know, don't laugh...lol.  But that is how outlandish it seemed to me that I got it this way.

:) 

Offline bocker3

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2010, 10:41:11 AM »
It just seems to me that getting infected, for a guy, through male to female intercourse, is so freaking unlikely,  

Most cases of HIV across the globe are in heterosexuals -- so just why do you think it is so difficult for a male to get HIV from unprotected sex with a woman??  If what you said is true, then how did all these woman get it, because clearly the men fucking them mustn't have had it -- the immaculate infection?  ::)

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Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2010, 12:13:17 PM »
Well, this is an interesting thread.  When I was diagnosed, I asked one of the doctors at Rockefeller University about this.  I was so certain I got infected giving this woman oral sex and not having unprotected sex with her.  The doctor said to me that it was much more likely that I got infected by having unprotected sex with her.  Still, I question it in my mind.  It just seems to me that getting infected, for a guy, through male to female intercourse, is so freaking unlikely, that it had to be me giving her oral.  Mind you, I stayed down there for awhile....  :)
Now, going forward, I would like to think that it is safe to give oral to a woman....because i do love it so, but, I am still confused. 

The "physics" of it all, just seems so unlikely. 

BTW, I actually tried to convince myself that I may have gotten it from colonoscopy a week later.  Yes, I know, don't laugh...lol.  But that is how outlandish it seemed to me that I got it this way.

:) 

It is hard for me to understand the denialist attitude towards oral infection. Hubby was iimpotent for MANY years due to surgical complications. It took years to happen, but there is no doubt, that is how be became infected. Those who say it is impossible are full of crap.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2010, 12:43:12 PM »
Well, this is an interesting thread.  When I was diagnosed, I asked one of the doctors at Rockefeller University about this.  I was so certain I got infected giving this woman oral sex and not having unprotected sex with her.  The doctor said to me that it was much more likely that I got infected by having unprotected sex with her.  Still, I question it in my mind.  It just seems to me that getting infected, for a guy, through male to female intercourse, is so freaking unlikely, that it had to be me giving her oral.  Mind you, I stayed down there for awhile....  :)
Now, going forward, I would like to think that it is safe to give oral to a woman....because i do love it so, but, I am still confused. 

The "physics" of it all, just seems so unlikely. 

BTW, I actually tried to convince myself that I may have gotten it from colonoscopy a week later.  Yes, I know, don't laugh...lol.  But that is how outlandish it seemed to me that I got it this way.

:) 

I agree with your doctor, unprotected sex was likely the way you became infected.  While saying that, I also respect your opinion regarding the matter, just to glance over some of the specifics regarding viable entry ways for endocytosis to occur (the way our body takes on the virus) causes me to disagree with this stance though.  Microbial infections do indeed enter the mouth and, of course, our bodies first line of defense are the phagocytes that can cause a response to these infections.  But you see, this isn't how HIV works, it tricks the cell into thinking it is something other than an infection.  Simply put, stuff like this doesn't occur in the mouth.  I think it's why they say a person with very poor dental health could possibly be infected because there is a theoretical entry way.

We discussed this in Physiology class this week actually, of course, I was the main one asking the questions.  Above is pretty much what the professor (a doctor) had to say regarding oral transmission.  I was impressed with his stance regarding the matter because my own HIV doctor has some pretty archaic opinions regarding transmission.
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2010, 02:01:58 PM »
It is hard for me to understand the denialist attitude towards oral infection. Hubby was iimpotent for MANY years due to surgical complications. It took years to happen, but there is no doubt, that is how be became infected. Those who say it is impossible are full of crap.


We have science to back up our assertions. If this is the thread where you wish to throw down a gauntlet, so be it. I am growing weary of posting scientific evidence in a conversation with anecdotal evidence offered in return.

Sorry, but you do not het HIV from cunnilingus or insertive fellatio. And if you CAN get HIV from receptive fellatio, we have yet to find a non-anecdotal study to prove it.

That is the science. I daresay that those of us who have researched this know our "crap" from our data.

The credibility of this site depends on scientific accuracy. It is a slippery slope to accept part of the science surrounding HIV and reject others. As someone with intellectual investment in this site, I shall continue to defend the science that frames it. Obviously that makes it hard for me to use it as a support forum, but such is life.


*edited to reduce the snark.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 02:13:56 PM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2010, 02:53:56 PM »
It is hard for me to understand the denialist attitude towards oral infection. Hubby was iimpotent for MANY years due to surgical complications. It took years to happen, but there is no doubt, that is how be became infected. Those who say it is impossible are full of crap.

I like your posts granny.  They are simple, honest and smart.  The 10 ton elephant in the living room isn't that oral sex is or isn't safe.  We'll never really have an official word on it.  We can't replicate real-world behavior in any of these studies.  The ten ton elephant is why so many people are shouted down, dismissed or told they're in denial when they have every reason to be honest.  I suspect that politics play a larger part in it than anyone admits.       
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2010, 03:18:29 PM »
Quote
I like your posts granny.  They are simple, honest and smart.  The 10 ton elephant in the living room isn't that oral sex is or isn't safe.  We'll never really have an official word on it. We can't replicate real-world behavior in any of these studies. The ten ton elephant is why so many people are shouted down, dismissed or told they're in denial when they have every reason to be honest.  I suspect that politics play a larger part in it than anyone admits.       

Yes we can. Remember the Romero study? The multiple Page Shafer studies? They corroborated the en vitro evidence as well as the en vivo evidence using SHIV, HIV and SIV.

Remember Ann's discussion of the Bartholens Glands, and how the infectious fluid in external vaginal secretions contained no more HIV than sweat or tears? Remember the science that states that infectious fluid is ONLY found in cervical fluids, which are inaccessible from the tongue and finger?

How about the statistics which show a ZERO percent lesbian infection vector for the last thirty years?



There is absolutely NO political reason to dismiss oral sex as a viable role. As a matter of fact, the Bush administration actually downplayed the role of condom use in preventing HIV, utilizing a single abstinence-only poliicy.

Hell, even the CDC, a government agency, has links on it's site that are two clicks away from the Catholic Church's claim that condoms FACILITATE infection through "microscopic holes."

Show me evidence that any political gain would ensue from downplaying or dismissing oral sex as an HIV vector.

I think that the "10 ton elephant in the room" is that some people are unwilling to concede to scientific evidence if it does not fit their paradigm.

This site is science based. You want to tell people you got infected through fluids which are no more infectious than tears or sweat? Fine. Don't be shocked when they refuse to kiss you, play sports with you, or hold you when you cry.  Want to claim that you got HIV through a portal that does not contain the correct environment to sustain viable viral particles? Fine. But don't be shocked when people don't let you use the bathroom at their house - or, if your claims get widespread agreement, in public.

the 10 ton elephant is that some people would rather face - and promote - stigma than admit to their mistakes and/or ignorance. That sort of thinking, unopposed, WILL ruin this forum more than flamewars and "bullying."

I will not, until removed from this forum, let these claims slide. So take it up with Mr. Horn and Mr. Valdez. Report my posts as spouting unscientific and incorrect information. I will not let you people bully this site into irrelevance.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #75 on: October 16, 2010, 03:34:15 PM »
Magnificently worded JK. As always.

As you eloquently note, we do not deny the hypothetical risk of HIV transmission to people who perform unprotected oral on HIV positive males. We merely note the absence of reliably documented cases of this mode of transmission.

And we weight our advice accordingly.

Why this sends a small and rather uniformed subset of members into such a tizzy has always mystified me.

MtD

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #76 on: October 16, 2010, 03:48:19 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.

Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #77 on: October 16, 2010, 03:53:53 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.

TSK TSK TSK ma'am, the mouse-fingers of the cartel are aflutter with the "report to moderator" button for DARING to point out how things work on here.  You've DEEPLY offended more than two dozen people...or maybe just three who continuously log in under different names all day long.

09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2010, 04:08:57 PM »
You've DEEPLY offended more than two dozen people...or maybe just three who continuously log in under different names all day long.


Maybe you should post this under the "Conspriacy Theories" thread --- in between UFOs and JFK assassination.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
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Online RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2010, 04:09:42 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.
I beg your pardon.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2010, 04:10:15 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.

You do that, dearie. :)

MtD

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #81 on: October 16, 2010, 04:12:30 PM »

  I think grampapa lied.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline newt

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #82 on: October 16, 2010, 04:31:29 PM »
Every distribution curve includes extreme outliers, eg the very, very, very few cases of (likely) household transmission, like:

Transmission from One Child to Another of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1 with a Zidovudine-Resistance Mutation
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199312163292502

That these case reports exist should not determine the evidence and should not inform the advice given on transmission. They do not contradict the (more robust) cohort and (even more robust) randomised trials on transmission. They are case studies, exceptions, for specialists, for special circumstances. Sample of 1 (person), sometimes 2 (people) not 100s or 1,000s (of people).

There will be grey areas where transmission cannot be determined as proven or unproven, and which apply to very few cases, probably under specific, maybe unique conditions. Like people who had a new car that blew up for no reason, or sommat else odd and against the trend. It don't mean it's generally gonna be the case, or indeed that it is a risk worth worrying about for everyone (shit if it happens to you tho).

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline bocker3

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #83 on: October 16, 2010, 04:50:58 PM »
Actually there has been a case study proving oral transmission several years ago. I am very aware of the details where a person was banned here for arguing the fact and backing the information up with a link to the study. If the bozos at Best Buy EVER get this damn computer fixed so it quits doing emergency crash dumps and and shutting off, I AM going to find it  and link it so the goderators can ban me  for information they don't like.

So what is up with you today Granny?  You seem to be out of your usual sorts......  You haven't hit me as a conspirationalist.  If someone was banned for a link -- then the link was probably to a denialist site.

It's unfortunate that this topic always and I mean ALWAYS turns into a disaster -- with many warnings and TOs.  Both sides have their points and why we all don't just agree to disagree on this one is beyond me.  One side is never going to convince the other at this point in time, so why waste the energy and emotion.

Infection via oral probably happens, albeit extremely rarely.  This is why we'll never see a scientific stufy with lots of cases.  And as for why we see more alledged cases on these forums than the literature might support is probably due to the fact that this is an HIV SITE.  We have a higher proportion of people with HIV on this forum than the literatrue supports too.

So....  let's just all step back and agree to disagree here.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
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Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2010, 09:03:23 PM »
Say Never or something is impossible and God will laugh at you for the next 5000 years. And yes, this subject ALWAYS turns as pleasant as stepping in shit. Maybe some of you who know how to do a decent search on this subject can find the link that was made here on POZ  or Aids med  back in 2008 (?) to the case study where HIV was transmitted between to oral partners in the U.K. and phenogenetic testing was done to rule out the possibility of third party involvement exactly as was done in my husbands case? Are you people that are so adamant that  oral transmission is impossible  just pissy because you don't want to give up your blow jobs? I am not saying you should give up your little pleasure that puts the smile on your face,  just that a 1/100,00 or 1/1,000,000 possibility does not equate  impossible. Why is it that nobody can ever voice an opinion here on POZ without eventually somebody getting insulting?  Skeebo, you did a nice job of being insulting. We are one couple that has spent 24/7/365 together for years. We worked together, we ate together, we played together and slept together.   the one time we have not been together was when I went to see my mother for a week years before his last neg. test, so I can say with confidence, grandpa did not lie. We both know where he got HIV and how he got HIV,  there is no question and no doubt.

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #85 on: October 16, 2010, 09:09:07 PM »
From the CDC web site:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/transmission.htm

Which body fluids transmit HIV?

These body fluids have been shown to contain high concentrations of HIV:

    * blood
    * semen
    * vaginal fluid
    * breast milk
    * other body fluids containing blood
Can I get HIV from oral sex?

Yes, it is possible for either partner to become infected with HIV through performing or receiving oral sex, though it is a less common mode of transmission than other sexual behaviors (anal and vaginal sex). There have been a few cases of HIV transmission from performing oral sex on a person infected with HIV. While no one knows exactly what the degree of risk is, evidence suggests that the risk is less than that of unprotected anal or vaginal sex.

Cells lining the mouth of the person performing oral sex may allow HIV to enter their body.

See also:
http://aids.about.com/cs/safesex/a/oralsex.htm

And:
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/epiu-aepi/epi_update_may_04/13-eng.php
And:
http://www.hiv.ch/rubriken/epidx/transmis/oralsexdocfin.pdf
And:
http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102251988.html
And:
http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/communicable/hiv/publications/infograms/hivtransmission.aspx
 And:
http://www.avert.org/oral-sex.htm
 And:
http://www.natap.org/2003/oct/100903_5.htm
And:
1. Mastro TD, de Vincenzi I. Probabilities of sexual HIV-1 transmission. AIDS 1996, 10 (Suppl A): S75-S82.
Cited Here...

2. Ostrow DG, Di Franceisco WJ, Chmiel JS, Wagstaff DA, Wesch J. A case-control study of HIV-1 seroconversion and risk-related behaviours in the Chicago MACS/CCS cohort, 1984-1992. Am J Epidemiol 1995, 142:875-883.
Cited Here...

3. Williams DI, Stephenson JM, Hart GJ, Copas A, Johnson AM, Williams IG. A case-control study of HIV seroconversion in gay men 1988-1993: what are the current risk factors? Genitourin Med 1996, 72:193-196.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

4. Burcham JL, Tindall B, Marmor M, Cooper DA, Berry G, Penny R. Incidence and risk factors for HIV seroconversion in a cohort of Sydney homosexual men. Med J Aust 1989, 150:635-639.
Cited Here...

5. Osmond DH, Page K, Wiley J, Garrett K, Sheppard HW, Moss AR, et al. HIV infection in homosexual and bisexual men 18 to 29 years of age: the San Francisco Young Men's Study. Am J Public Health 1994, 84:1933-1937.
Cited Here... | PubMed | CrossRef

6. Page-Schafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJP. Sexual risk behaviour and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.
Cited Here...

7. Rothenberg RB, Scarlett M, del Rio C, Reznik D, O'Daniels C. Oral transmission of HIV. AIDS 1998, 12:2095-2105.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

8. Vittinghoff E, Douglas J, Judson F, McKirnan D, MacQueen K, Buchbinder SP. Per-contact risk of human immunodeficiency virus transmission between male sexual partners. Am J Epidemiol 1999, 150:306-311.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed

9. Dillon B, Hecht F, Swanson M, Goupil-Sormany I, Grant RM, Chesney MA, Kahn JO. Primary HIV infections associated with oral transmission. In: 7th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections. San Francisco, 2000 [Abstract 473].
Cited Here...

10. Hawkins DA. Oral sex and HIV transmission. Sex Transm Infect 2001, 77:307-308.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

11. Samuel MC, Hessol N, Shiboski S, Engel RR, Speed TP, Winkelstein W Jr. Factors associated with human immunodeficiency virus seroconversion in homosexual men in three San Francisco cohort studies, 1984-1989. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr 1993, 6:303-312.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed

12. Kippax S, Campbell D, Van de Ven P, Crawford J, Prestage G, Knox S, et al. Cultures of sexual adventurism as markers of HIV seroconversion: a case control study in a cohort of Sydney gay men. AIDS Care 1998, 10:677-688.
Cited Here... | PubMed | CrossRef

13. Keet IPM, Albrecht van Lent N, Sandfort TGM, Coutinho RA, van Griensven GJP. Orogenital sex and the transmission of HIV among homosexual men. AIDS 1992, 6:223-226.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

14. Page-Shafer K, Shiboski CH, Osmond DH, Dilley J, McFarland W, Shiboski SC, et al. Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men. AIDS 2002, 16:2350-2352.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed

15. Del Romero J, Marincovich B, Castilla J, GarcŪa S, Campo J, HernŠndo V, et al. Evaluating the risk of HIV transmission through unprotected orogenital sex [Research letter]. AIDS 2002, 16:1296-1297.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

16. Kippax S, Noble J, Prestage G, Crawford JM, Campbell D, Baxter D, et al. Sexual negotiation in the AIDS era: negotiated safety revisited. AIDS 1997, 11:191-197.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef

17. Gokhale R, Hernon M, Ghosh A. Genital piercing and sexually transmitted infections [Letter]. Sex Transm Infect 2001, 77: 393-394.
Cited Here... | View Full Text | PubMed | CrossRef
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 09:53:10 PM by Granny60 »

Offline ss2011

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #86 on: October 16, 2010, 09:22:23 PM »
there are no facts that you can get hiv from oral sex. no proof at all.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2010, 09:32:21 PM »
MR HALL:   I guess we established that during attendence. It's time for your oral.
CHER:   Excuse me?
MR HALL:   Your original oral. The topic is violence in the media.
CHER:   Oh!  (Cher approaches the podium)
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2010, 09:35:25 PM »
there are no facts that you can get hiv from oral sex. no proof at all.

And the proof you use to refute the above links is??????

Online RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2010, 09:47:17 PM »
"The observation on thousand and thousand of observations is that HIV is not spread by oral sex (of any sort)."  DR HOOK

Edward W Hook, MD   
Male

Specialties: HIV Prevention, STDs

BS, Hobart & William Smith Colleges, Undergraduate 1972 - 1972
MD, Cornell University School of Medicine, Graduate 1976 - 1976
Medical Training University of Washington - Internship - 1976 - 1976
University of Washington - Residency - 1977 - 1980
University of Washington - Fellowship - 1980 - 1983


Interests: Microbiology, epidemiology
1992 - Present: Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology, University of Alabama at Birmingham
1992 - Present: Medical Director, STD Control Program, Jefferson County Department of Health
2002 - Present: Professor of Microbiology
More than 230 peer-reviewed original papers

More than 40 book chapters

Three books including Klausner, JD and Hook EW (Eds), Current Diagnosis & Treatment of Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Lange Medical Books/McGraw-Hill Medical Publishing, Feb. 2007




Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2010, 09:55:37 PM »
"The observation on thousand and thousand of observations is that HIV is not spread by oral sex (of any sort)."  DR HOOK

Edward W Hook, MD  
Male

Specialties: HIV Prevention, STDs

BS, Hobart & William Smith Colleges, Undergraduate 1972 - 1972
MD, Cornell University School of Medicine, Graduate 1976 - 1976
Medical Training University of Washington - Internship - 1976 - 1976
University of Washington - Residency - 1977 - 1980
University of Washington - Fellowship - 1980 - 1983


Interests: Microbiology, epidemiology
1992 - Present: Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology, University of Alabama at Birmingham
1992 - Present: Medical Director, STD Control Program, Jefferson County Department of Health
2002 - Present: Professor of Microbiology
More than 230 peer-reviewed original papers

More than 40 book chapters

Three books including Klausner, JD and Hook EW (Eds), Current Diagnosis & Treatment of Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Lange Medical Books/McGraw-Hill Medical Publishing, Feb. 2007





Ok, there is one opinion. Did you actually read any of the 24 links above in there entirety?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 09:58:02 PM by Granny60 »

Online RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2010, 10:02:11 PM »
Ok, there is one opinion. Did you actually read any of the 24 links above in there entirety?
How many would you like to see?

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2010, 10:13:39 PM »
How many would you like to see?

My question was  DID YOU READ THEM?  One nice part about having a good education is that I can read and I DO read. I even manage to understand what I read.

Online RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2010, 10:24:23 PM »
My question was  DID YOU READ THEM?  One nice part about having a good education is that I can read and I DO read. I even manage to understand what I read.
Then I guess you need to get yourself updated on HIV transmissions. I really wouldn't expect you to know anymore than you do only being diagnosed for 3 years. In time you will learn the facts instead of theories and hypothesises by government agencies. Try reading scientific data. JK gave you a list to start with and when you're finished I can add somemore to the list.

Granny60

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2010, 10:51:16 PM »
Then I guess you need to get yourself updated on HIV transmissions. I really wouldn't expect you to know anymore than you do only being diagnosed for 3 years. In time you will learn the facts instead of theories and hypothesises by government agencies. Try reading scientific data. JK gave you a list to start with and when you're finished I can add somemore to the list.

Actually living in an area where there are few resources, I have done nothing  but study HIV for the  last three years including traveling to medical schools to purchase HIV textbooks and guide books from their book supply. The Textbook for Pediatric Aids care costs over $320.00,  Many of the other textooks cost $60 to 70 each. Have you made that much effort? Guides for HIV medicines can be purchased for as little as $29.xx.  A very good friend of mine, that has been a friend for over 20 years, son is a an HIV researcher. ( Just received a NICE grant for continued research  :))  My sister in-law teaches at a major medical school and she has provided me educational materials to study. I have a brother-in-law that took care of his partner till he died of HIV several years ago. I am a mentor to people infected with HIV so I deal with a lot of peoples issues of all persuasions  besides my own.  People who know me know that I do not live in the realm of baseless conjecture. I have been a guest lecturer at universities providing pictorial and written information on HIV and have been a participant is HIV case studies in 2 states. I have participated in assisting case managers and doctors in helping people with HIV.   Anyone that know me knows when I go on a crusade, political, business, legal, HIV, I do it with such passion that it is fully engaging, 24 hours a day. I have always been a force to be recconed with and HIV chose the wrong  person to mess with when it decided to fuck with me.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 10:57:46 PM by Granny60 »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2010, 10:56:35 PM »
Actually living in an area where there are few resources, I have done nothing  but study HIV for the  last three years including traveling to medical schools to purchase HIV textbooks and guide books from their book supply. A very good friend of mine, that has been a friend for over 20 years, son is a an HIV researcher. ( Just received a NICE grant for continued research  :))  My sister in-law teaches at a major medical school and she has provided me educational materials to study. I have a brother-in-law that took care of his partner till he died of HIV several years ago. I am a mentor to people infected with HIV so I deal with a lot of peoples issues of all persuasions  besides my own.  People who know me know that I do not live in the realm of baseless conjecture. I have been a guest lecturer at universities providing pictorial and written information on HIV and have been a participant is HIV case studies in 2 states. I have participated in assisting case managers and doctors in helping people with HIV.   Anyone that know me knows when I go on a crusade, political, business, legal, HIV, I do it with such passion that it is fully engaging, 24 hours a day. I have always been a force to be recconed with and HIV chose the wrong person person to mess with when it decided to fuck with me.

I'm not surprised to learn that you're a university lecturer. You use lots of complicated words in a very emphatic way.

This fellow is a university lecturer too. His name is Michael Behe, Michael thinks that a Cosmic Jewish Zombie Who is His Own Father designed everything in the whole universe and that Mr Charles Darwin was a big fat fibber.

Maybe you know Michael?

MtD

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2010, 11:00:44 PM »
Edith Bunker told me before her untimely death that oral sex was not a risk --- I believe the CDC may have had something to do with her death -- I'm still working various angles and will provide updates.  (By the way - any google searches on Edith Bunker, oral sex, and HIV have all been mysteriously removed -- could be the CIA - still investigated this - however, I fear that if I get too close to discovering the truth, I may be discredited - perhaps on an Internet Forum - so, be on the lookout) :o
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline ss2011

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2010, 11:44:30 PM »
if old grandma wants to think oral sex causes hiv, let her/him think so.  makes you look dumb.

Offline ss2011

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2010, 11:45:24 PM »
phil took the same dumb pills grandma did.  ;D

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2010, 11:46:46 PM »
phil took the same dumb pills grandma did.  ;D
SS -
I have not attacked you personally at all on here - but you seem to see fit to attack me on public thread and via PM -

both have been reported to adminstrators.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Online Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2010, 11:47:37 PM »
phil took the same dumb pills grandma did.  ;D

if old grandma wants to think oral sex causes hiv, let her/him think so.  makes you look dumb.

Who ordered the troll?

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2010, 11:49:07 PM »
Who ordered the troll?
Hi Joe:
I have already reported him to mods as well as the PM he sent me attacking me.

September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Online Jeff G

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2010, 11:50:53 PM »
Who ordered the troll?

He is not a very clever troll , as trolls go I'm kinda bored by him or what ever it is .    

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2010, 11:56:40 PM »
if old grandma wants to think oral sex causes hiv, let her/him think so.  makes you look dumb.

phil took the same dumb pills grandma did.  ;D

Any need for this?  You may disagree, but you could do it more respectfully.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Online Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2010, 11:58:14 PM »
Any need for this?  You may disagree, but you could do it more respectfully.

Apparently there is a reason. I'm going with he's a 12 year old child who is having a tantrum. Seems just about right and we all know what to do when kids have tantrums. IGNORE THEM.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2010, 09:51:02 AM »
SS, one more crack about someone's being "dumb" is going to win you a Time Out.

If you can't get your snarkiness under control you are next going to get a vacation from the site to do so.

Consider yourself warned for the last time.
Andy Velez

Offline bocker3

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2010, 10:06:07 AM »
SS, one more crack about someone's being "dumb" is going to win you a Time Out.

If you can't get your snarkiness under control you are next going to get a vacation from the site to do so.

Consider yourself warned for the last time.

In the last 12 hrs he's been warned by 3 different mods!  How long will it take to TO him?  I've never asked for anyone to be TO'd, but he has posted nothihng but snark since he started -- he's even attacked Jan.  My nine year old grandson has better manners than this kid.  I think you are all being way too lenient with this one.

My 2 cents.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2010, 10:18:36 AM »
I feel the same way - nearly every one of his posts he has used name calling and even sent me to PMs name calling me -- all reported to Mods and still he is around....  ???
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Online Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2010, 11:10:19 AM »
I am confused as well. He has insulted Granny, Jan, Phil and myself and he is still here?

Offline mecch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2010, 11:16:58 AM »
Well, cough.
I called out his flamebait early on, in the first thread now locked, and was rewarded with a school marm diss from Gymrat and Ann.  ;D
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2010, 12:03:16 PM »



   Strange night it was, Halloween is close people.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline bocker3

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2010, 12:37:49 PM »
Well, cough.
I called out his flamebait early on, in the first thread now locked, and was rewarded with a school marm diss from Gymrat and Ann.  ;D


Oh please -- you weren't "dissed" for calling out flamebaiting, you were "dissed" for flaming back.  It wasn't the message, but the approach that the others didn't like.  Stop playing victim.
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2010, 02:29:23 PM »
Regardless of how many b'zillion scientific studies anybody wants to post or quote about HIV not being transmittable through oral sex...based on my personal experience alone, they're full of shit. Or...I should be trying to locate parties responsible for a blood bank that was located somewhere in the backstreets of Philly in 1996. Which one seems more viable...?

 ;D
when shit has value...the poor will be born without assholes...

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #113 on: October 17, 2010, 03:32:30 PM »
Regardless of how many b'zillion scientific studies anybody wants to post or quote about HIV not being transmittable through oral sex...based on my personal experience alone, they're full of shit. Or...I should be trying to locate parties responsible for a blood bank that was located somewhere in the backstreets of Philly in 1996. Which one seems more viable...?

 ;D

Sad thing is, the plural of anecdote is not data. I will take a few days to rifle through Granny's links, of course. Be cool if, in return, she would explain why Romero and Page Shafer, two of the most long-standing studies of serodiscordant couples, are incorrect in their conclusions.

Especially since, after those studies, there has been a virtual standstill in HIV transmission vector research. If anyone knows about anything ongoing, please let me know.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Online RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2010, 03:41:20 PM »
Regardless of how many b'zillion scientific studies anybody wants to post or quote about HIV not being transmittable through oral sex...based on my personal experience alone, they're full of shit. Or...I should be trying to locate parties responsible for a blood bank that was located somewhere in the backstreets of Philly in 1996. Which one seems more viable...?

 ;D
I'll admit to "experimenting" and having anal sex once when I was about 21.

Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2010, 04:11:03 PM »
bitches
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Online RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2010, 04:20:04 PM »
bitches
You have anything better to contribute?

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2010, 04:27:44 PM »
You have anything better to contribute?

You've obviously not seen his five other vodka-infused posts in the past five minutes elsewhere.
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2010, 04:36:37 PM »
bitches

Please provide first tier, peer-reviewed scientific data for the claim of "bitches."

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Online RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #119 on: October 17, 2010, 04:40:33 PM »
You've obviously not seen his five other vodka-infused posts in the past five minutes elsewhere.
P, I saw it. He'll be gone as the way of his brother.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #120 on: October 17, 2010, 04:50:27 PM »
You've obviously not seen his five other vodka-infused posts in the past five minutes elsewhere.

Vodka? Really? I am never like that when I drink vodka. Absinthe has made me miss the bathroom, which is why I fear and respect it. Tequila tends to make me dance. Bourbon makes me write. Vodka makes me talk and talk about scientific theory and the TV shows "Firefly," "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer," and the new "Star Trek" movie. Gin does make me belligerent though.

It takes all kinds. of liquor, I mean.

JK

(who is seven Long Island Iced Teas and a Sazerac away from arguing the timelines of Star Trek, looking for peer-reviewed science to explain season six of Buffy, and peeing on the floor. So noted)
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline tommy246

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #121 on: October 17, 2010, 04:57:03 PM »
why is it whatever time its the same 6 or 7 daft cunts on here .go get a job miss prickillia daushound jkuntill rev moon from the moonies kiilifeely and the newcomers who suck up to your  ball bags , and total respect to the people that matter on here who have positive input with no bitchyness thanks for all your support and input i like you also hope the mods save this site from the piosioned clicque who run people off here on a weekly basis
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline mpositive

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #122 on: October 17, 2010, 05:10:31 PM »

Hey Bocker...

I just felt that it would be easier to get it from me giving her oral.  Just seemed like getting the virus through the tip of the penis seems less likely than through the mouth.  Alas, I have learned otherwise, but am only saying what I thought and felt initially.  Still it does make me question things....
Who knows....   :)

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #123 on: October 17, 2010, 07:02:58 PM »
why is it whatever time its the same 6 or 7 daft cunts on here .go get a job miss prickillia daushound jkuntill rev moon from the moonies kiilifeely and the newcomers who suck up to your  ball bags , and total respect to the people that matter on here who have positive input with no bitchyness thanks for all your support and input i like you also hope the mods save this site from the piosioned clicque who run people off here on a weekly basis

OK. Thanks. Bye.
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Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #124 on: October 17, 2010, 10:04:40 PM »
I'll admit to "experimenting" and having anal sex once when I was about 21.
So HIV takes 15 years to develop? Anybody want share some scientific info on the possibility of that happening?
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #125 on: October 17, 2010, 11:02:59 PM »
So HIV takes 15 years to develop? Anybody want share some scientific info on the possibility of that happening?

I hope that is not what RR meant. The three month window is all but conclusive. And even for those whose immune systems are compromised through chemo or long-term IV drug use, six months is as far as science is able to discern. To the best of my knowledge, HIV testing science has not progressed past that. If someone has science to further that discussion, I urge them to post it.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Online RapidRod

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #126 on: October 17, 2010, 11:06:41 PM »
I hope that is not what RR meant. The three month window is all but conclusive. And even for those whose immune systems are compromised through chemo or long-term IV drug use, six months is as far as science is able to discern. To the best of my knowledge, HIV testing science has not progressed past that. If someone has science to further that discussion, I urge them to post it.


No that is not what I meant or said I quoted klipsch's own post.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #127 on: October 17, 2010, 11:21:11 PM »
No that is not what I meant or said I quoted klipsch's own post.

Thanks, RR for that. Seems that some people would advance their agendas to the detriment of this site.

Again, I throw down the gauntlet. Talk to Mr Horn and the rest to change the site's stated transmission vectors, or GTFO.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2010, 11:28:23 PM »
No that is not what I meant or said I quoted klipsch's own post.
Which I interpreted as your saying "I didn't contract HIV through oral sex. I most likely contracted it during that one time that I tried anal sex (15 years earlier)...or...it really happened more than just that one time". Please understand that there's no prize for contracting the virus via oral sex...so I really have no reason to say that I got HIV through that method verses sticking myself with a needle or letting the entire adult bookstore run a train on my ass. None of it changes the fact that I'm still HIV positive.  ::)
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #129 on: October 17, 2010, 11:59:13 PM »
There seems to BE a prize for acquiring HIV through an unlikely means. Some folks think that they claim a moral and mental superiority from doing "all the right things" and still getting HIV.

Others refuse to admit to behaviors that fall outside the norm.

Both explain why patient report is notoriously unreliable. Rather than see bulletholes and blaming the nearest gun, it is easier to point the gun at people and see if it fires.

The romero and page shafer studies did that for fifteen years - fully half of the studied pandemis - and proved that this particular gun does not, in fact, fire.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

I reiterate- get this site to change it's lessons, get the science to alter, take it up with Mr. Horn and Mr Valdez, even Ms Hoffman, or GTFO.

I am just a member. I have no say in what goes on. But I will be removed from this site before I endorse, by my silence or affirmation, misinformation regarding the science of HIV.

And I am not too proud to say that the science has proven these assertions incorrect, if one can produce studies subsequent to the Romero and Page shafer studies.

Let me know when that happens, and when the list of HIV transmission vectors broadens.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2010, 12:37:22 PM »
I'm gonna throw myself on the sword here and say this very clearly. If I'm reading correctly that there are individuals that would actually advocate anything less than barrier use sex as  Risk Free Behavior...based solely on hard drives full of "scientific studies"...I must have stumbled smack dab into the original breeding ground of the Village Idiot.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 12:44:10 PM by klipsch »
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2010, 12:51:25 PM »
I'm gonna throw myself on the sword here and say this very clearly. If I'm reading correctly that there are individuals that would actually advocate anything less than barrier use sex as  Risk Free Behavior...based solely on hard drives full of "scientific studies"...I must have stumbled smack dab into the original breeding ground of the Village Idiot.

I don't see where that has happened. I have certainly not done this, and cannot see where anyone else has, either.

Are you referring to penetrative sex here? We know that insertive fellatio and cunnilingus are not considered HIV risks, and there is no definitive proof that receptive fellatio is more than a theoretical risk, based not only on the mechanisms by which HIV infects and targets specific cells, but where in the body infectious fluids are located.

I am puzzled by your post. Could you elaborate?





"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #132 on: October 18, 2010, 01:06:36 PM »
I don't see where that has happened. I have certainly not done this, and cannot see where anyone else has, either.

We know that insertive fellatio and cunnilingus are not considered HIV risks

I am puzzled by your post. Could you elaborate?

So you feel 100% confident based on what you have read that HIV risks are 0% possible through oral sex??? I sincerely hope that you aren't one of those asked to go into high schools to inform teenagers about what are and are not safe sex practices.
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #133 on: October 18, 2010, 01:12:50 PM »
So you feel 100% confident based on what you have read that HIV risks are 0% possible through oral sex??? I sincerely hope that you aren't one of those asked to go into high schools to inform teenagers about what are and are not safe sex practices.

I believe that the only 100 percent safe sex is masturbation. It is called safer sex.

And define what you mean by oral sex. It has four meanings that I am aware of. I think I was clear, and this is not only what I have counseled in ASO situations, but also in schools and in risk assessment in this very forum. I assure you that I am nowhere near alone in this assessment, and I believe this is mirrored in our lessons on transmission, which I urge you to read.

I am rather proud to have had a hand in creating them.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline klipsch

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2010, 01:36:43 PM »
I believe that the only 100 percent safe sex is masturbation. It is called safer sex.

And define what you mean by oral sex. It has four meanings that I am aware of. I think I was clear, and this is not only what I have counseled in ASO situations, but also in schools and in risk assessment in this very forum. I assure you that I am nowhere near alone in this assessment, and I believe this is mirrored in our lessons on transmission, which I urge you to read.

I am rather proud to have had a hand in creating them.



Well...Some of the worlds top physicians in the New England area would never make the statement that oral sex is 100% safe...and I'll stick with my own behaviors and diagnosis. Believe me! I have gone forward, backward and sideways in regards to trying to determine how I contracted the virus. This is the internet and I am an anonymous name and picture on an open forum, and have no reason to lie about my previous sexual practices. It's not like I need to fear being found out about anything I haven't openly shared already. So again, I'll list in order of how I believe I contracted HIV...

Performing Cunnilingus on one of two woman...
Donating Blood Plasma at a clinic in 1996
Sharing a coke straw

Those are the ONLY activities I partook in from 1996-1998 that could have exposed me to the HIV virus. So, somewhere in the piles of medical studies out there...one of those three activities have been validated. If anybody wants to discredit that or tell me that it's not possible...then send me your address and I'll ship your Your Sign
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #135 on: October 18, 2010, 01:43:23 PM »
Well...Some of the worlds top physicians in the New England area would never make the statement that oral sex is 100% safe...and I'll stick with my own behaviors and diagnosis. Believe me! I have gone forward, backward and sideways in regards to trying to determine how I contracted the virus. This is the internet and I am an anonymous name and picture on an open forum, and have no reason to lie about my previous sexual practices. It's not like I need to fear being found out about anything I haven't openly shared already. So again, I'll list in order of how I believe I contracted HIV...

Performing Cunnilingus on one of two woman...
Donating Blood Plasma at a clinic in 1996
Sharing a coke straw

Those are the ONLY activities I partook in from 1996-1998 that could have exposed me to the HIV virus. So, somewhere in the piles of medical studies out there...one of those three activities have been validated. If anybody wants to discredit that or tell me that it's not possible...then send me your address and I'll ship your Your Sign

I have no agenda towards discrediting anyone. There is, however, not sufficient science to endorse your claim, and plenty to refute it.

I understand your hostility on some level, as you clearly have a personal stake in this. However, until/unless you can personally get past how you were infected, I do not understand how you can objectively make informed choices about your treatment.

I personally do not subscribe to 100% anything. What I can say is that there is no evidence that HIV can be, or has been passed through cunnilingus. I do not know how HIV could be spread through donating blood, and it is my understanding that the "sharing a coke straw" vector was ruled out  before 1995, long before even the Romero and Page Shafer serodiscordant studies were held and published.

Studies which I notice no one seems to want to address.

Like I keep repeating, if you believe that this site's lessons are dangerous, then by all means petition to have them amended.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #136 on: October 18, 2010, 02:24:12 PM »
Well...Some of the worlds top physicians in the New England area would never make the statement that oral sex is 100% safe...and I'll stick with my own behaviors and diagnosis. Believe me! I have gone forward, backward and sideways in regards to trying to determine how I contracted the virus. This is the internet and I am an anonymous name and picture on an open forum, and have no reason to lie about my previous sexual practices. It's not like I need to fear being found out about anything I haven't openly shared already. So again, I'll list in order of how I believe I contracted HIV...

Performing Cunnilingus on one of two woman...
Donating Blood Plasma at a clinic in 1996
Sharing a coke straw

Those are the ONLY activities I partook in from 1996-1998 that could have exposed me to the HIV virus. So, somewhere in the piles of medical studies out there...one of those three activities have been validated. If anybody wants to discredit that or tell me that it's not possible...then send me your address and I'll ship your Your Sign

Personally, i believe you. We seem to confuse "unlikely" with "impossible" in discussions of HIV transmission.  Lightning striking a tree is very, very unlikely but I think we've all seen it happen, or even had it happen in our yards before.  There's room for speculation on the politics behind this, and I imagine that if the virus is ever cured we'll come to admit that there are vectors of transmission besides "unprotected anal and vaginal sex" and injection drug use.  Until then, its not in the interests of most pozzies to admit it, and its not a strong enough liklihood yet for most neggies to fear it.  This forum is filled with people who swear they got it from oral.  They're usually shoted down, belittled or discredited.  Even those who think they personally got it from oral like to include an addendum like "but I'm sure he had a stratospheric viral load" so as to make their account of what happened jive with with politically accepted explanations of transmission.  

The unintended political consequences of this message has been an ironic super-marginalization of those who are recently infected, as we "knew how to avoid it".  Straight men who swear they got it from sex must be on the "down low".  Gay men who get it are reckless and stupid.  Consequently, we see people grasping for straws of personal credibility.  "I got it from my long term partner who lied" is pretty popular, as are claims of rape and a bizarre series of urban legends about condom saboteurs and malicious infectors.  This of course just feeds the cycle of blame and paranoia.  In the long term, we and society as a whole would be better off readily admitting that many who are infected were infected through nontraditional means.
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
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Online Joe K

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2010, 04:51:44 PM »
In the long term, we and society as a whole would be better off readily admitting that many who are infected were infected through nontraditional means.

If your above quote was indeed true, how do you propose we provide prevention information, without science as a guide? While we can't identify the cause of every infection and exceptions do exist, that does not negate the need to provide clear and concise prevention information. Decades of research indicate the substantiated methods of infection, but splitting hairs becomes bothersome when trying to promote a consistent prevention message. Whatever posters may believe, regarding their situations, is important, however, it can never be used to undermine the science based message that these forums provide.

Most posters understand how personal beliefs can color our world, but most agree that emotions or thoughts have no place in providing guidance regarding HIV. Where the conflict arises, is when a poster claims to be infected, through a vector not substantiated through science. There is a huge difference in something being possible, vs. probable. This site promotes the latest science regarding HIV infections and from what I have read, the issue here is one poster claiming a given transmission route, without any evidence, other than their opinion.

So other than throwing out our known prevention guidance, what do you propose we tell people, to avoid becoming infected? If you can get HIV from nontraditional sources, we are back to risk from virtually anything conceivable, without one scintilla of proof.

Offline bocker3

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2010, 05:37:46 PM »
There is a huge difference in something being possible, vs. probable. This site promotes the latest science regarding HIV infections and from what I have read, the issue here is one poster claiming a given transmission route, without any evidence, other than their opinion.

So other than throwing out our known prevention guidance, what do you propose we tell people, to avoid becoming infected? If you can get HIV from nontraditional sources, we are back to risk from virtually anything conceivable, without one scintilla of proof.

I think there is another possibility here.  We can assume that a poster is being as truthful as they can be.  I believe that science should be the foundation for guidance, but attacking someone as a liar because of how they state that they BELIEVE they were infected in utterly useless.

Anecdotes are not scientific studies, but neither are they universally false.  Everyone of us are an "anecdote" in how we became infected.  I assume I got it from unprotected anal sex (and science would back me up) -- but I do not KNOW that.  It's no different than anyone else -- very few of us can be 100% certain in how/when we became infected. 

I, for one, do believe that some poor souls have likely been infected via oral sex -- but I don't advocate that this means this is a vector that needs to be occupying time in folks heads.  I think oral sex is still "safer sex" -- as JK pointed out earlier -- only masturbation is 100% safe from HIV transmission.  A good analogy - someone was recently attacked by a shark off the coast of VA, but that isn't going to stop me from going swimming -- because the likelihood of it happening is so damned remote (not to the kid who got bit, however.....). 

I am stating what I have with an MPH degree under my belt -- with an Epidemiology and Biostatistics concentration.

So, in the interest of moving beyond this unwinnable debate, at the individual level -- can't we all just let it be.  Minds are not going to be changed here.

Hugs,
Mike
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Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2010, 11:31:58 PM »
 In the long term, we and society as a whole would be better off readily admitting that many who are infected were infected through nontraditional means.

Meh, I got mine the good 'ol fashioned way... a drunken, coked up gang -bang.

-Will
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6/25/13 CD4- 1036, UD,
2/4/13, CD4 - 489, UD, 28%

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.

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #140 on: October 18, 2010, 11:47:40 PM »
Meh, I got mine the good 'ol fashioned way... a drunken, coked up gang -bang.

-Will

Scandalous!!



"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline aztecan

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #141 on: October 19, 2010, 12:50:17 AM »
Meh, I got mine the good 'ol fashioned way... a drunken, coked up gang -bang.

-Will

Well, since I have never injected drugs and, though I was breast fed, my mother remains HIV negative to this day, I would say I got it the same way Willy did.

Or, it was the 1,711th trip to the baths that did it. I'm pretty sure it was one or the other. Who can remember? It was 1980.

While I am required, by my employer, to say there is a minute statistical possibility of contracting HIV through oral sex, I have never, in my nearly 30 years of dealing with this pandemic, met anyone who contracted it that way.

Furthermore, the criteria needed to establish the risk factors and allow for transmission of HIV with this type of behavior, whether male to male, male to female or female to female, would be next to impossible to replicate.

Because of this, infection via oral sex would have to be treated as purely anecdotal.

Now, if you want to talk oral transmission, let's talk about syphilis, gonorrhea and chlamydia. Infections with those diseases via oral contact is very common.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #142 on: October 19, 2010, 01:11:57 AM »
I have never, in my nearly 30 years of dealing with this pandemic, met anyone who contracted it that way.

Either have I in any real life support group I've attended the past two decades -- for some reason this is seemingly an internet manifestation.
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Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: hiv infection by oral sex
« Reply #143 on: October 19, 2010, 01:50:12 AM »
Either have I in any real life support group I've attended the past two decades -- for some reason this is seemingly an internet manifestation.

I don't think real life begs the question of *how* one became infected quite as often as the internet.  I also don't think that actually seeing people roll their eyes and mutter under their breath encourages this sort of claim, regardles of its veracity. 

edited for spelling
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 02:05:58 AM by wtfimpoz »
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

 


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