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Author Topic: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?  (Read 3971 times)

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Offline HowYouDoin

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Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« on: October 05, 2010, 02:03:53 PM »
Hi everyone

I don't post a whole lot on this site but enjoy reading most people's input and comments about HIV related topics and I been questioning when the right time to tell my 9  and 5  year old nieces my status. In case you are wondering these are daughters of my eldest sister who already knows my situation and was not the most supportive person but is dealing with it as best she could. I honestly believed that once I disclosed my status to my family they would keep the girls away from me as much as possible BUT on the opposite occurred and I think I am blessed. I pick them up from school on most days and at times babysit and we are close. I am a worrier and often think if I ever get into an accident where there may be a scar or blood involve
9 ( i am very hairy and tend to cut myself when i shave ALOT) , i wouldn't want to put them at risk. The chances of anything where i would put them at risk is not much at all but i still worry. Should i Talk to my sister and have her tell them and if so at what age you think it is appropriate? Should i keep it to myself and not tell them at all? Your input would be greatly appreciated.

Al

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2010, 02:07:30 PM »
I think that there is absolutely no reason for these children to know your status.  They're honestly a little bit to young to even understand what you're potentially telling them anyway.  I can't imagine how few cases of HIV exposure have happened due to automobile/household accidents and the like.  We know how HIV is transmitted and barring some freak accident, that ain't it.

Offline Realist

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2010, 02:15:21 PM »
Freak accidents aside, if it occurred in the manner you suggest, them knowing or not knowing wouldn't reduce the (negligible) risks involved. Assuming from the shaving comment you are male (sorry if I have made an incorrect assumption), at 9 and 5 would you tell them you had testicular cancer? Would you tell them you had depression?

Ultimately, I would consider how, and if any value, would be added to the relationship and decide from there. But following on from Hellraiser, 9 and 5 isn't 16 and 12.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 04:59:14 PM by Realist »
23/02/10 Tests confirmed
25/02/10 13100 220 24%
12/03/10 19800 372 19%
26/03/10 Atripla
30/04/10 58 286 23%
28/05/10 45 222 21%
25/06/10 UD 301 23%
24/09/10 UD 283 22%
01/12/10 UD 319 23%
11/03/11 UD 293 28%
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23/08/11 UD 389 26%
28/02/11 UD 315 34%

I blogged it all http://notdownnotout.blogspot.com

Offline tommy246

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2010, 04:53:46 PM »
I would never ever tell them even when there adults or anybody else for that matter whats the point , today hiv is a chronic manageble illness you have nothing to gain and alot to lose by telling anybody.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2010, 04:58:49 PM »
What does your sister think?  Her opinion matters a lot, since she controls access to her kids and will likely be the person they talk to about their concerns.


As far as the blood transmission fears...well, first you might want to check out the lessons.  But it is very difficult, even when you know better, not to worry.  So, take some steps that are good healthy things to do anyway and will help you deal with the fears:

- if you cut yourself, put on a bandaid -- this will help you stay healthier on a day to day basis by keeping cuts clean

- put some disposable gloves in the first aid kit to use if you need to deal with a big cut on one of the kids or an accident.  This is generally healthy anyway.

Frankly, you aren't going to transmit to the kids by living your usual life.  But that doesn't mean you won't worry.  So use the Bandaids and disposable gloves; they are good healthcare anyway and they go a long ways towards dealing with any of those middle of the night fears.

Be well
A
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2010, 05:12:33 PM »
What does your sister think?  Her opinion matters a lot, since she controls access to her kids and will likely be the person they talk to about their concerns.


As far as the blood transmission fears...well, first you might want to check out the lessons.  But it is very difficult, even when you know better, not to worry.  So, take some steps that are good healthy things to do anyway and will help you deal with the fears:

- if you cut yourself, put on a bandaid -- this will help you stay healthier on a day to day basis by keeping cuts clean

- put some disposable gloves in the first aid kit to use if you need to deal with a big cut on one of the kids or an accident.  This is generally healthy anyway.

Frankly, you aren't going to transmit to the kids by living your usual life.  But that doesn't mean you won't worry.  So use the Bandaids and disposable gloves; they are good healthcare anyway and they go a long ways towards dealing with any of those middle of the night fears.

Be well
A

^^This. Urban speaks big heap truth.

Hellraiser, Tommy speak with forked tongue.

MtD

Offline Joe K

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2010, 05:23:32 PM »
I became poz when my daughter was two years old. I keep bleach, gloves, bandaids, etc, under the sink for emergencies. When she became old enough, we simply taught her that if someone gets hurt and there is blood, do not touch anything and get an adult. These children are too young to understand how you can have a serious disease, without the probability of your dieing. They cannot understand the concept and it will only scare them, knowing a favorite uncle has a horrible disease. Teach them universal fluid precautions and in time, the rest will take care of itself. Children today grow up too fast as it is, please don't make them grow up before their time.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2010, 06:12:59 PM »
Frankly, you aren't going to transmit to the kids by living your usual life.  

That is the bottom line. Not touching other people's blood should be taught to all children. Tell your nieces if you want to share this aspect of your life, although I would wait until they are a little older. Discuss your desire to disclose to your nieces with their parents and reach an agreement on the time and approach. Don't do it because you think there is a health risk, because there isn't one.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 06:14:57 PM by GSOgymrat »

Offline mecch

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 06:23:37 PM »
Yes. Two different issues.
There is no health risk.

When to tell them?  HMM, why tell them?  Wait until there is some reason, wait til there is some everyday justification they need to know. Maybe when they are teenagers and ask themselves.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 07:48:58 PM »
i had talks with all my nieces and nephews (the ones in OH and NC) around the time they were 5. Why? not for some small fear of transmission to them; but for my own health. ;) I taught them to think twice when they were sick and not ask to spend the night at my house so I wasn't exposed to germs. I also talked to them about going over to Grandmothers where we would all meet up for Sunday dinners, so they didn't infect me or their grandparents with colds or flu or whatever icky germ they had that week.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Joe K

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 08:54:40 PM »
i had talks with all my nieces and nephews (the ones in OH and NC) around the time they were 5. Why? not for some small fear of transmission to them; but for my own health. ;) I taught them to think twice when they were sick and not ask to spend the night at my house so I wasn't exposed to germs. I also talked to them about going over to Grandmothers where we would all meet up for Sunday dinners, so they didn't infect me or their grandparents with colds or flu or whatever icky germ they had that week.

Wow, you told this to five year olds. You know they have no concept of how their being sick, may impact others? You do realize they were five years old. Being a parent, I just don't know what to say. That is possibly the most insensitive and selfish thing I have ever heard. Five years old, unbelievable.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Online tednlou2

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2010, 08:59:06 PM »
I understand the concern, but if contracting the virus was that easy you'd have to stay away from everyone.  My brother has this obsession with popping zits.  He always wants to pop any I have.  He knows I'm poz and we know blood often comes out with you pop a zit.  It does worry me a little, but we know he'd have to have to fresh wound on his fingers to get infected.  Even then, I would think it would have to be a good open wound.

As others said, I think the kids are too young.  I think telling teens would be a good thing just to teach them about HIV, but I still haven't told anyone--besides my brother knowing.  So, I'm obviously in no positon to tell you what to do.  

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2010, 09:11:35 PM »
Wow, you told this to five year olds. You know they have no concept of how their being sick, may impact others? You do realize they were five years old. Being a parent, I just don't know what to say. That is possibly the most insensitive and selfish thing I have ever heard. Five years old, unbelievable.
what?!? five is too young to teach good health habits to? Use a kleenex not your hand? Don't sneeze all over your old grandmother when you're sick with the flu? Is that too young in your opinion to teach them to wash their hands after using the toliet? How old did you wait for your children to be to teach them basic health habits?

I guess my real relatives and Ohio-relatives were smarter than yours. My nieces and nephews would call me up on weekends when they were sick to tell me they were thinking of me but going to stay away because they had colds or sore throats they had caught from sick kids at school. We'd make plans if they were well the next week to come over and spend a weekend with me.

sheesh. I explained to the 4 yr olds that Uncle mikie loved boys like Uncle Randy so they understood why I was so sad when Uncle Randy died. By the time Uncle Jim came into my life, the kids were 10 yrs old and explaining to their friends that uncle mikie was the best uncle ever with a houseful of doggies and a pool - and oh yeah, he's gay too, that means he kisses boys.  ;D
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Joe K

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2010, 09:16:28 PM »
I guess my real relatives and Ohio-relatives were smarter than yours.

I fail to see how insulting my relatives has any bearing on this topic. I was trying to make a point, but you rather insult me. Nice job.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2010, 09:45:49 PM »
I was trying to make a point, but you rather insult me.
That is possibly the most insensitive and selfish thing I have ever heard.
calling my actions insensitive and selfish was you insulting me first. I fail to see how you thought insulting me would not result in a little bit of rudeness coming back to you. However, if my 5-yr old relatives could understand these kinds of health matters and your 5-yr old relatives could not (according to you), then it's only the truth that my relatives must have been smarter at a younger age than your relatives.

and i don't understand why teaching children good health practices (like keeping your germs to yourself) early in their life was being insensitive and selfish. Assuming that you waited until your children were older (I assume that by your comments demeaning a 5 yr old of not being able to understand basic health matters) sounds to me like you sheltered your children too much and kept them ignorant too long.

Of course, you're entitled to teach your children about life, health and death matters at your own pace and the pace you think they can learn. my brothers and my friends had already explained these health issues and precautions (and me being gay) to the kids long before I spoke about them (this situation happened in the late 90s when I was hospitalized several times with PCP and pneumonia). I only reiterated the information to the kids, as repetition aids the learing experience.

Their parents and I also had to explain death to them when Randy died and then Hershey, one of my cocker spaniels. Do you think that they were too young at 6 to learn that lesson? God knows I sure didn't want that lesson at 32; but life doesn't give you the choice on when to learn about death. It comes at all ages. At least learning about health issues (like not spreading germs to uncle mikie because he has a serious disease, just like grandpa is really sick and can't be exposed to germs) was a nicer lesson to learn than why uncle randy was gone and never coming back. If they could have a rudimentary understanding of death at that age, why should it be any harder to understand good health practices?
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2010, 09:54:36 PM »
You could have taught them to wear there hoodies backwards , that would keep the kid germs down .

Offline Joe K

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2010, 10:28:14 PM »
calling my actions insensitive and selfish was you insulting me first. I fail to see how you thought insulting me would not result in a little bit of rudeness coming back to you. However, if my 5-yr old relatives could understand these kinds of health matters and your 5-yr old relatives could not (according to you), then it's only the truth that my relatives must have been smarter at a younger age than your relatives.

and i don't understand why teaching children good health practices (like keeping your germs to yourself) early in their life was being insensitive and selfish. Assuming that you waited until your children were older (I assume that by your comments demeaning a 5 yr old of not being able to understand basic health matters) sounds to me like you sheltered your children too much and kept them ignorant too long.

Of course, you're entitled to teach your children about life, health and death matters at your own pace and the pace you think they can learn. my brothers and my friends had already explained these health issues and precautions (and me being gay) to the kids long before I spoke about them (this situation happened in the late 90s when I was hospitalized several times with PCP and pneumonia). I only reiterated the information to the kids, as repetition aids the learing experience.

Their parents and I also had to explain death to them when Randy died and then Hershey, one of my cocker spaniels. Do you think that they were too young at 6 to learn that lesson? God knows I sure didn't want that lesson at 32; but life doesn't give you the choice on when to learn about death. It comes at all ages. At least learning about health issues (like not spreading germs to uncle mikie because he has a serious disease, just like grandpa is really sick and can't be exposed to germs) was a nicer lesson to learn than why uncle randy was gone and never coming back. If they could have a rudimentary understanding of death at that age, why should it be any harder to understand good health practices?

You are right, I should not have insulted you, but you went after my family, not me. You know nothing of what I wanted to say, or how I taught my daughter, so stop trying to sound so superior. I was going to suggest that you start with the parents and work your way down, but you don't want to hear what I really had to say. You are too busy gloating over your relatives, so have at it.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2010, 10:51:06 PM »
To the OP-

When you do decide to tell your nieces please don't tell them to keep it a secret. Discretion is okay, but not a secret.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2010, 11:20:13 PM »
I was going to suggest that you start with the parents and work your way down, but you don't want to hear what I really had to say. You are too busy gloating over your relatives, so have at it.
too bad you didn't start off your part of this conversation by saying what you really wanted to say (about starting the discussion with the parents) instead of attacking my personal experience as somehow being wrong. I would have been happy (as I was trying in my original "happy" post) to hear that from you; but you threw out insults, so don't try to insinuate that I would not have taken a legitimate part in this discussion. The blame lies on you for derailing this part of the thread so that I have to defend my relationship with my young family members.

When I spoke of my personal experience of talking to my young relatives (without any HIV stigma or homophobia because we treated my illness as just that - an illness), You got bent out of shape and attacked me and the obviously more open attitude about being ill with HIV that my family and friends possess by calling my actions wrong.

I appreciate that you admitted you insulted me; but you then preceded to insult me again (which kinda negates the non-apology you gave anyway LOL) by suggesting that I was trying to sound haughty (ie sound so superior) by defending my opinions and my personal experiences with my family and friends. If sounding educated, trying to have a reasonable discussion, and being happy that I can discuss my health issues and life problems with my friends and family of all ages, if all that sounds unreasonable to you, then that's your personal issue about this matter and not mine.

I would like to request that you quit broadcasting your ill-formed opinion of me to the forums. I am not selfish, insensitive, trying to sound superior or gloating. I'm just trying to defend my personal experiences of being able to help educate young family members in health, life, and death issues at an early age, without someone calling my actions inappropriate names. I'm sorry you felt your family was unable to learn basic health/illness prevention methods (like not going around other people when you are sick) at an early age; but obviously your family is not like mine, yet my experiences and advice are just as valid as yours and you had no right to publically try to belittle my experiences.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline anniebc

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2010, 01:18:55 AM »
From leatherman

Quote
I guess my real relatives and Ohio-relatives were smarter than yours

I find that very insulting, Joe simply told you what he thought of your post, he didn't insult your family, yet you turn on his and insult them..charming.

Quote
sheesh. I explained to the 4 yr olds that Uncle mikie loved boys

 A 4 year old..really?..that is just wrong.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 01:22:31 AM by anniebc »
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2010, 01:41:54 AM »
Why are we in such a damned hurry to sexualize children? Why does it matter so much that we keep scraping off the few years of quasi-innocence that kids have, and make them privy to the adult world? For fuck's sake, we can at least give kids ten or so years to believe in the magic we obviously do not subscribe to, rather than turn out a generation even MORE embittered than this one.

To the OP: I really hope you think before you tell your young nieces. I am all for disclosure, but what do you hope to gain by telling them? Understanding? Understanding HIV, it's ramifications, transmission vectors, and societal impact - something that many adults do not accomplish very well.

Do you expect support? From people intellectually and emotionally unable to offer it at any real substantial level? At best, you will have two young people worried about you, and frustrated at their inability (as is so often the case in a child's world) to control, to respond in a real meaningful way to your situation - which, from what I gathered from your posts, is chronic and ongoing, not catastrophic.

Of course, the children will tell other children, and then you would get to see HIV stigma at work. At best they will be teased. At worst, bullied and tortured. Hell, as an ADULT I had friends get flack for having an HIV positive friends. God/dess only knows what true hell awaits ignorance filtered down a generation.

When these girls grow up, you will hopefully be there. And as they learn about sex, and STDs, and their own bodies, they might ask questions. Questions that I feel ought to be answered honestly. But bringing up the conversation now would, in my opinion, be not only unhelpful and unnecessary, but cruel and disruptive.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2010, 01:45:56 AM »
A 4 year old..really?..that is just wrong.
but a 4 yr can watch straight people kissing and loving on tv and in public and that's okay? you know, as a minority (gay), I see the whole world projecting straight images of people loving one another 24/7 to children and no one says boo. But talking about 2 men loving each other is wrong? come on now, I know you're not homophobic. sheesh.

Joe simply told you what he thought of your post,
That is possibly the most insensitive and selfish thing I have ever heard.
calling my educating children to not spread germs as insenstive and selfish was Joe's inital insult to me and an attack on my personal experiences. obviously he didn't feel that his children were capable of handling that information at such a young age, while my brothers, my friends and myself all thought that my relatives were smart enough and capable of handling that kind of information and discussion.

but just like joe attacked my personal experiences (for no reason other than they were different from what happened in his family) it seems that you are attacking me now. I already know about the hateful things you think of me and how you've tried to post them.  You've obviously been following me around recently trying to provoke something (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=34651.msg431225, http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=34490.msg429389). You really should know as an former moderator that your actions are not proper and I think you probably shouldn't be starting something here.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2010, 01:48:34 AM »
Why are we in such a damned hurry to sexualize children?
who's talking about sex?
people of the same sex loving one another isn't sex, nor are the general health precautions against blood contamination or the spread of germs. We're talking about health concerns with children, not sex with children.

this should be like discussing cancer, diabetes, MS, being crippled, or million other illnesses. The more you make HIV "special" or "different" the more you stigmatize the disease. Of course, that's just my opinion. Others are more discreet and in the closet about the issue - and neither opinion is wrong.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 01:51:27 AM by leatherman »
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2010, 01:52:53 AM »
You've obviously been following me around recently trying to provoke something (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=34651.msg431225

Not sure why you're dragging my post in here.  All I said was that you looked sexy in that speedo.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline anniebc

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2010, 01:59:46 AM »
Not sure why you're dragging my post in here.  All I said was that you looked sexy in that speedo.

Not sure what that is all about Miss P...I was posting some photo's of men in speedos for Mecch so don't know how you got involved.

 :-*
Jan
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2010, 02:03:14 AM »
who's talking about sex?
people of the same sex loving one another isn't sex, nor are the general health precautions against blood contamination or the spread of germs. We're talking about health concerns with children, not sex with children.

this should be like discussing cancer, diabetes, MS, being crippled, or million other illnesses. The more you make HIV "special" or "different" the more you stigmatize the disease. Of course, that's just my opinion. Others are more discreet and in the closet about the issue - and neither opinion is wrong.

You are assuming that the friends, schoolmates, and parents of the nieces friends think of HIV in the same vein as cancer, diabetes, and the like.

My utopian wish for the world does not change it. But we push away the stigma with the adults, the systems, the responsible leaders. We do not send ill-equipped children out into that harsh fight with an incomplete understanding of what they are up against. That is cruel.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2010, 02:04:42 AM »
Not sure why you're dragging my post in here.  All I said was that you looked sexy in that speedo.
that's not your post. ;) your post was #431235, I linked to Jan's post #431225

in that thread Mecch complimented me on my speedo and out of the blue Jan, who had recently had a run in with me, was there posting pictures totally off topic of other people in speedos snidely saying that the picture represented how a man "should look" in a speedo.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline anniebc

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2010, 02:07:14 AM »
You are assuming that the friends, schoolmates, and parents of the nieces friends think of HIV in the same vein as cancer, diabetes, and the like.

My utopian wish for the world does not change it. But we push away the stigma with the adults, the systems, the responsible leaders. We do not send ill-equipped children out into that harsh fight with an incomplete understanding of what they are up against. That is cruel.

Thank you JK

 :-*
Jan
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2010, 02:09:20 AM »
We do not send ill-equipped children out into that harsh fight with an incomplete understanding of what they are up against. That is cruel.
my nieces and nephews have never spoken of any discrimination or stigma they received by telling people that they have a gay uncle with AIDS. and I do know that they have talked about me because I've met many of their friends. hey what can I say, I'm a cool uncle. of course, they might have experienced some issues out and about in public; but I'm not responsible for the ignorant masses and I'm not going to hide being gay or having HIV just to make bigots happy.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2010, 02:13:14 AM »
my nieces and nephews have never spoken of any discrimination or stigma they received by telling people that they have a gay uncle with AIDS. and I do know that they have talked about me because I've met many of their friends. hey what can I say, I'm a cool uncle. of course, they might have experienced some issues out and about in public; but I'm not responsible for the ignorant masses and I'm not going to hide being gay or having HIV just to make bigots happy.

Are you implying that I have done either? Trust me, no.

But I have not drafted children into my fight. When they choose to stand by me, it means an awful lot. When they choose to stick up for me, it means an awful lot.

It should come from the child's readiness and ability to understand, however. I don't think we have the right to make that decision for them.

I feel as though I am losing something in interpretation, because what seems rational and clear to me does not seem to be registering with you, or registering as anything other than shame or deceit.

I assure you, that is not my intent.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2010, 02:16:40 AM »
my nieces and nephews have never spoken of any discrimination or stigma they received by telling people that they have a gay uncle with AIDS.

seriously?

Did YOU tell an adult each time you were bullied, or every time your social status was altered by events outside of your control (or comprehension?) Did each hurt, each slight, every would suffered in the schoolyard make it to the dinner table? Of course not, because we all know how that pans out.

Childhood can be hell, as well as heaven. And most of those battles are never revealed to adults, because that usually makes things worse.

Surely you are not so old as to forget what it was like growing up different.

Fight the good fight. Enlist all you can. Draft none.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2010, 02:20:53 AM »
But I have not drafted children into my fight. When they choose to stand by me, it means an awful lot. When they choose to stick up for me, it means an awful lot.

It should come from the child's readiness and ability to understand, however. I don't think we have the right to make that decision for them.
you're obviously inferring something vastly different from what I've posted.

I didn't draft anyone into anything. My friends and brothers told my nieces and nephews about my homosexuality and my nearly terminal HIV, back in the mid 90s when I was very sick. I also spoke to them about my homosexuality and having AIDS. Everyone in my family, including the young kids, have been nothing but supportive

unlike a few members here who are totally non-supportive and obviously trying to start an issue.
I had parental approval, the children understood, we didn't talk about sex but about love, we didn't talk about sexual transmission but we did talk about having a disease.

I'm sorry if things were different in other families; but that doesn't make my actual experience wrong.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2010, 02:22:39 AM »
Draft none.
i resent your implication that I have coerced children into some sort of fight for gay rights or something. I never drafted anyone into anything, and I never said draft. talking to my family was always talking about my health. quit making up shit. dude, you're just off the wall with that line of comments
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2010, 02:25:44 AM »
o hai guys -- is this where I can sign up for the NAMBLA float?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2010, 02:27:36 AM »
i resent your implication that I have coerced children into some sort of fight for gay rights or something. I never drafted anyone into anything, and I never said draft. talking to my family was always talking about my health. quit making up shit. dude, you're just off the wall with that line of comments

Holy Granola, I was talking to the OP. Seriously. once in a while it really is NOT about you.

Wow.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2010, 02:33:28 AM »
Holy Granola, I was talking to the OP.
Liar, liar. ;D

both posts are prefaced by posts of mine that you quoted,
both posts discuss "draft",
and in both posts you specifically spoke to me ("seriously?" and "Are you implying that I have done either?").

Not once did you mention or address the OP.

but you were right on one thing, Wow. :o
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2010, 02:45:05 AM »
I was attempting to turn the conversation BACK to the OP. Sadly, i had to address your commentary in order to make that attempt.

I could care less how much or little damage you have done to other people with selfishness and hurtful commentary. I was hoping - and am still hoping - that the OP takes heed, and treads the difficult waters carefully.

Obviously you have a beef with me. Fine. I refuse to let your cavalier assertions go unchallenged, even as the suicides of young gay and lesbian kids continues.

and my use of the terms "enlist" and "draft" are not, I suspect, patented by you. I used them because they were the appropriate analogies.

You can be as despicable or as kind a person as you choose to be. But this is not your thread. It is the OP's, and my comments were aimed at the attempt to counter your wildly inappropriate (in my opinion) advise.

Hope you and your "cabal" are having a fun time. For some of us, we see the deathly seriousness of these forums and the implications for all those who read, but do not post.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2010, 03:24:51 AM »
I was attempting to turn the conversation BACK to the OP.
where and when did that happen? LOL You never addressed the OP or his issue. Instead you talked about whether my nieces and nephews might have been bullied and if I was too old to remember growing up different. (shoot. i grew up baptist. I know what different is all about. LOL). None of that pertained to the OP so you're just lying to make yourself look better.

I could care less how much or little damage you have done to other people with selfishness and hurtful commentary.
sorry that my experiences do not match what you think it should. No one in my families has been damaged by knowing about their gay uncle with AIDS. Using your own comment, it's not all about you either. Or about Joe. I just don't see why y'all are so dead set on claiming that my happy experiences with confiding in my family is somehow wrong. Both situations are equally valid. What works for me might not work for you and vice versa. I thought we were supposed to discuss things here and not neccesarily follow lockstep in groupthink.

You may think I shouldn't disclose my status to my family, and Jan may think I should keep my homosexuality under wraps but I think y'all are both wrong. I mean that is what y'all are suggesting. That somehow telling my family about teh AIDS will lead to a disaster of stigma and suicide, and that being gay and letting my family know is "wrong". I'm really shocked by both of y'all with those opinions of homophobia and HIV prejudism.

I refuse to let your cavalier assertions go unchallenged, even as the suicides of young gay and lesbian kids continues.
the OP's nieces are 9 and 5, similar to the ages I told some of my nieces and nephews. I don't think the OP or I mentioned anything about gay kids or suicides. you must be thinking of some other thread. I would imagine that none of the children the OP or I am talking about even know their sexuality yet.

and my use of the terms "enlist" and "draft" are not, I suspect, patented by you. I used them because they were the appropriate analogies.
what ARE you talking about? those were YOUR words from the start. Just like the gay kid suicides, you're the one bringing off topic stuff into this this. I'm not drafting anyone into nambla, gay rights or anything else. I simply told family members I had AIDS, and everyone dealt well with it. how is that "drafting" anyone?

You can be as despicable or as kind a person as you choose to be. But this is not your thread. It is the OP's, and my comments were aimed at the attempt to counter your wildly inappropriate (in my opinion) advise.
let's see. I used my advice in my own life and it worked. How does that give you the right to call it wildly inappropriate? Just because it's not what you would do, doesn't make it wrong.

Hope you and your "cabal" are having a fun time. For some of us, we see the deathly seriousness of these forums and the implications for all those who read, but do not post.
Cabal? That really is from another thread. Dude. get it together. this is thread about the OP talking to his sister and maybe his nieces, telling them that he has HIV.

but speaking about cabals and such, it's putting up with nonsense attacks like I have in this thread that drives people to not post and to leave these forums. Who wants to get caught up in crap like this? I can't even offer the experience of telling my family I was gay and had AIDS without being attacked by other members. I didn't attack Joe when he offered his opposite experience; but that's what I got in return. And then came the pile on. ::) Good grief.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2010, 03:43:28 AM »
I explained to the 4 yr olds that Uncle mikie loved boys like Uncle Randy so they understood why I was so sad when Uncle Randy died.
good lord, just so no one makes a stupid assumption, in my explanation to my 4 yr old nephew, I explained being gay as "liking boys" instead of girls and that was why uncle randy and I lived together. I do NOT mean that as an adult I wanted to have sex with childen ie boys.

it just struck me re-reading philly's humorous/sarcastic jibe about nambla that perhaps that was what Jan had thought about my comment. gross! I am not a pedaphile.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline anniebc

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2010, 04:18:52 AM »

it just struck me re-reading philly's humorous/sarcastic jibe about nambla that perhaps that was what Jan had thought about my comment. gross! I am not a pedaphile.

So what now!!!..are you saying I thought you were a paedophile?...you really do like to twist things around don't you..I don't have time for people like you.

Quote
You may think I shouldn't disclose my status to my family, and Jan may think I should keep my homosexuality under wraps but I think y'all are both wrong. I mean that is what y'all are suggesting.

Show me where I said you should keep your homosexuality under wraps..again twisting things around to suit you..so sad.


« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 04:24:10 AM by anniebc »
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Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2010, 07:50:22 AM »
Folks, this exchange has become increasingly muddy and acrimonious.

It began with a question about if and when to disclose to children. Let's stop the bickering and limit comments to responding to that original question if you want to.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Al, I suggest you there is no need to rush to overload your nieces with more information than they can genuinely comprehend at their present ages. Teaching them simple healthy habits is different from overloading them with information, no matter how well intentioned on your part. Also, I agree that discussing your concerns with your sister is a good idea since she has been supportive thus far. If and when the children have any questions for you, you ought to answer their specific questions and again without adding on too much detail. Meantime you can continue to protect their health by taking some basic precautions.

Concentrate on continuing to have loving and enjoyable relationships with them. Everything else will come along to be communicated and understood at a more appropriate time as they mature.

 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 07:56:10 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline leatherman

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2010, 11:11:33 AM »
Show me where I said you should keep your homosexuality under wraps..again twisting things around to suit you..so sad.
remember YOU started this one by jumping in and making comments about what I posted. If you'll read your post Reply #19, you will see that you criticized me for telling my nephew about my homosexuality (I referred to it as "uncle mikie loves boys like uncle randy"). You called that action "just wrong". I replied to that in Reply #21 that children of his age are already being given straight stereotypes of love by their parents and media, and that giving him the other information that some people are gay did not seem "wrong" to me. did you not read what you and I posted around 1:18am? You're words calling my actions wrong are clearly there in black and white on my monitor.

So you either meant that I should keep my homosexuality a secret, cause it's "just wrong" or you misinterpreted my post and thought I literally said I loved little boys. So which is it? Of course since you recently called me names in the forums and from your hostile tone in this thread, I understand you totally have misjudged me and think very bad things about me and my character. I am assuming that you have continued your mischaracterization of me by either one way thinking I'm a pedophile or the other way thinking it was wrong for me to admit to being homosexual. If it's not either of those obvious choices then please, do explain what you meant when you said it was "just wrong" for me to tell my nephew that I loved my partner.

Folks, this exchange has become increasingly muddy and acrimonious.

It began with a question about if and when to disclose to children. Let's stop the bickering
hey Andy,  it's not muddy at all. The OP asked about disclosing to children. One person said 9 and 5 was way too young, and I said that I told to ages as young as 4. After that, several members entered the thread and criticized my actions as insensitive, rude, and gloating. I was accused of "drafting" children into some sort of campaign while the off topic subjects of sexualizing children and gay youth suicides were interjected into the thread. One member even went so far as to suggest telling my young relatives that I was gay was a "wrong" action.

Please note that I do not see this as "bickering". My actions of telling my young relatives about my homosexuality and hiv status (which is what the OP's topic is about) were deemed as "wildly inappropriate" actions that were "wrong, insensitive, rude, despicable" and that they could result in the children being bullied or turning gay and committing suicide. I was simply defending my point of views as others were trying (going so far as to lie about whom they were responding to) to squash my opinion - which I will once again point out ended with two big happy families, who have given me love and support for nearly 20 years.

So for their vaunted "superiority" of knowing what's better (a phrase that was used earlier as a derogatory slam against me, I should point out), my advice worked out for me and my family and is just as valid as other people's advice to not disclose. However, because I didn't attack their advice of nondisclosure, they didn't have to defend their point of view like I had to - against several members at one time. If there was any "bickering", the responsibility for that would have to lie with the other members who continued to berate my opinions and actions with no proof but only wild conjectures about how my advice was supposedly "wrong". No one can unequivocally state that disclosure to children is wrong; because it's been done before without the dire consequences some have stated here. Of course, I wholeheartedly agree, and never said otherwise, that nondisclosure is an option too.


so once again to the OP I will tell my experience:
of course, discuss this with your sister first, as they are her children and she knows them best. In my case, my brothers and friends had actually explained some about my status to my nieces and nephews when they were quite young (as I was quite sick and my first partner was dying). So I was able to talk to my relatives at an early age, explaining that my partner was the person I had chosen to love, and that I was sick with a very bad disease. We discussed how if they were sick they could spread their germs to me.

Thankfully, they're all 13 years and older now, and have been a great source of joy and support in my life during the rough times of losing my pets and my second partner in these intervening yrs. With a lesbian great-aunt and a gay uncle loving them and being part of their lives growing up, they have grown up to not be homophobic and not prejudiced against people with HIV. Now that they are entering their late teens, I (with their parent's approval again) have discussed with most of them the need to have safe sex (to avoid STDs, HIV and pregnancy) and have even provided condoms for the older ones, just in case. ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Joe K

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2010, 11:28:43 AM »
Leatherman,

I am going to ask you nicely to leave me alone and stop slamming me in this thread. I apologized for my mistake and I left the thread. However, that was not enough for you, you have continued to degrade me and twist my words, implying things that I did not say. You do not know how my family handled anything. So I will ask again. I am leaving this thread, now leave me the fuck alone.

What you are doing is flamebating, plain and simple.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline Ann

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2010, 11:32:00 AM »
Mike,

What is your problem? Andy asked that the bickering stop and you pile in with another long-winded rebuttal to something that isn't even the subject of this thread. If you want answers from Jan, then I suggest you PM her instead of continuing the hijack you have been asked to stop.

While I agree that some of what you said has been misconstrued, I think most people reading this thread will have understood what you meant the first time you said it. There's no need to engage in a back-and-forth about it ad nauseum. All this exchange has done is make all three of you look rather foolish. Them for reading things into what you said that weren't there and you for rising to the bait.

If any of you three - Mike, Jonathan and Jan - cone back into this thread again to continue this argument, you'll get a time out.

You have been warned - please heed it.

And Joe, you posted while I was writing. You can add your name to the list of people I have warned.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

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Offline wolfter

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2010, 11:46:51 AM »
I wasn't going to enter the "cat fight", but I have some helpful comments.  I have numerous nieces and nephews whom I'm really close too.  I had a moral obligation to tell my siblings so they could research the issues and decide for themselves.  I totally left it up to them if they wanted to share with their children when they felt it was appropriate.

My nephew came out when he was 17 and my sister actually asked me if I would share my experiences and history with him.  I probably taught him more about this illness and the real possibility of contracting it than any course or class he could have taken.  I personally believe this is an issue that the parents need to decide.
Judging someone does not define them, it defines you. 

True peace is not merely the absence of war, it is the presence of justice.

Offline HowYouDoin

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  • this is not me but i wish, lol
Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2010, 01:31:08 PM »
Wow

  I want to thank everyone for their input, i read them all and avoided reading the ones that didn't have to do with  the topic I was concerned about. I understand and know that transmission is not possible to my nieces and have educated myself about this.

Honestly I don't find a need to tell them and of course they are too yng to understand. I just don;t think their mother (my 36 yo sister) has taught them the basics of precaution but she and I don't have a good relationship anymore since my disclosure and I have been too sensitive to her comments and she has as well so we are very careful with what we say to each other. I have to take it upon myself to tell my nieces to not drink from the same cup from me, not pinch me, kiss me on the cheek  where i don't have a bruise or cut. I KNOW transmission is not possible this way BUT i can't help but take extra precaution with them. I also worry that their parents will have them stay away from me if they see a so called "risk". I don't want to tell my sister how to raise her children or what to teach them especially when we don't get along as well as we use to.  I will for sure avoid telling them as much as I can but ultimately the decision to inform them will be my sisters especially when she took it upon herself to tell her husband and friends about my status without my consent (THAT IS the reason why me and her aren't friendly anymore).

Thanks you all for your insight.

Al

Offline Jeffreyj

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Re: Should I have a talk about my status with nieces?
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2010, 09:53:22 PM »
Hi Al,
I have 13 nieces and nephews. I have had mixed feelings about this, but I finally came to the conclusion that they are my brothers children, and they know what is best for their kids. I think the older ones know, so each parent deals with it as they see fit.

However, if anyone of them asks me I won't lie. So far that has not happend. Best of luck with this!
Positive since 1985

 


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