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Author Topic: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence  (Read 9943 times)

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Offline Hellraiser

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2010, 06:47:11 PM »
Jebus, you Southern girls are so messy.

Oh no ma'am!  You can't just assume the mantle of or shed your southern heritage at will.  You either are or are not Southern.  Do I need to go looking for threads where you stated in no uncertain terms "I was born in the south!" to justify your authority on the subject matter.

You's a messy southern queen, just like the rest of us, 'fess up honey.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2010, 06:58:40 PM »
Oh no ma'am!  You can't just assume the mantle of or shed your southern heritage at will.  You either are or are not Southern.  Do I need to go looking for threads where you stated in no uncertain terms "I was born in the south!" to justify your authority on the subject matter.

You's a messy southern queen, just like the rest of us, 'fess up honey.
Oh no he didn't ----  ;) ;D
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2010, 06:59:46 PM »
Oh no ma'am!  You can't just assume the mantle of or shed your southern heritage at will.  You either are or are not Southern.  Do I need to go looking for threads where you stated in no uncertain terms "I was born in the south!" to justify your authority on the subject matter.

You's a messy southern queen, just like the rest of us, 'fess up honey.

Meh, I left those environs when I was 23.  Smarter by half.

Plus look on a map for Leesburg, VA and you'll see that I was a mere mile from being "not" Southern :)  lol
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 07:01:42 PM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Online Jeff G

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2010, 07:04:08 PM »
Meh, I left those environs when I was 23.  Smarter by half.

Plus look on a map for Leesburg, VA and you'll see that I was a mere mile from being "not" Southern :)  lol

23 ... Your definitely southern then , its in the rule book Miss Phillicia Belle . 

Offline Ann

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2010, 07:16:35 PM »
You can take a girl out of the South, but you can't take the South out of a girl.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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Offline tednlou2

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2010, 01:01:40 AM »
Meh, I left those environs when I was 23.  Smarter by half.

Plus look on a map for Leesburg, VA and you'll see that I was a mere mile from being "not" Southern :)  lol

I'm trying to remember off the top of my head and I'm tired.  Everything south of the Mason-Dixon line was considered "The South"??

Offline BT65

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2010, 05:13:11 AM »
I think a person has to be born in the South to really appreciate it.  I'm from the North, moved down to Alabama years ago, and moved back up to the North as fast as I could go (even if "the North" is Indiana).

I did like a lot of the food, though. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2010, 03:31:10 AM »
How do you not remember whether you had 2 or 3 abortions?  Not being smartass, but just curious.

He didn't have the abortions. She did. Other than being a seed donor, he was largely superfluous to proceedings. It should come as no surprise that he can't quite remember how many times she paid a visit to the D&C shop given that the vacuum wasn't shoved up his twat.

Oh that it could have been.

And therein lies the rub. Who gives a shit what he thinks? Why should major issues of public policy and individual rights shift on the basis of what a man thinks about female fertility?

They shouldn't.

Frankly the spectacle of fags who one the one hand shriek about the alleged injustices of marriage being denied to sodomites yet on the other advance a shamelessly anti-choice position regarding abortion borders on the faint making.

MtD

Online bocker3

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2010, 06:30:15 AM »
He didn't have the abortions. She did. Other than being a seed donor, he was largely superfluous to proceedings. It should come as no surprise that he can't quite remember how many times she paid a visit to the D&C shop given that the vacuum wasn't shoved up his twat.

Oh that it could have been.

And therein lies the rub. Who gives a shit what he thinks? Why should major issues of public policy and individual rights shift on the basis of what a man thinks about female fertility?

They shouldn't.

Frankly the spectacle of fags who one the one hand shriek about the alleged injustices of marriage being denied to sodomites yet on the other advance a shamelessly anti-choice position regarding abortion borders on the faint making.

MtD

I don't think that Will has ever stated he wants public policy changed.  He stated why he personally has issues with abortion, but I've not read where he thinks a woman's right to choose should be banned.  I find your utter lack of compassion to him a bit shocking.  He went out and exposed a painful chapter of his life to explain his personal feelings on an issue.  Calling him nothing more than a seed donor borders on the edge of lunacy, this wasn't some anonymous one-night stand with someone he never saw again.  This was someone he had an ongoing relationship with -- Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it invalid.  It wouldn't kill you to show a wee bit of kindness.

Also -- while I agree that, ulitimately, it is the woman's choice -- in a perfect world one could hope it would be a choice arrived it with input from both parties involved in creating the pregnancy.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
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Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2010, 07:32:00 AM »
  I abhor the death penalty, but I'm also anti abortion (except in rare cases).  My politics are convoluted and complicated to say the least.

Actually, your politics seem quite consistent to me.  You are against killing in both cases.  Good!

Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2010, 08:06:25 AM »
I believe the early church went with the concept of "quickening" to determine ensoulment, and I'd suspect they didn't make that up themselves (snagged it from the pagan Romans).  Quickening is the moment that the fetus first moves, or is felt to move, i.e. from 18-21 weeks.  Feticide and abortion are hardly new concepts, especially with the law.  Abortion views that center around the moment of conception are (relatively) new.  It's a testament to the modern anti-abortion Moral Majority movement that so many are still swayed by this, but then all of you grew up around Roe v. Wade. 

At any rate, the large majority of abortions are performed before that time period, and those after that period are done for the health of the mother in an unusual circumstance.  I just don't see the big deal.  It's been going on forever.  Nobody has a funeral when there's a miscarriage (except Rick Santorum).  My mother is a god-fearing Christian and has always been pro-choice.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2010, 08:46:20 AM »
I don't think that Will has ever stated he wants public policy changed.  He stated why he personally has issues with abortion, but I've not read where he thinks a woman's right to choose should be banned.  I find your utter lack of compassion to him a bit shocking.  He went out and exposed a painful chapter of his life to explain his personal feelings on an issue.  Calling him nothing more than a seed donor borders on the edge of lunacy, this wasn't some anonymous one-night stand with someone he never saw again.  This was someone he had an ongoing relationship with -- Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it invalid.  It wouldn't kill you to show a wee bit of kindness.

Also -- while I agree that, ulitimately, it is the woman's choice -- in a perfect world one could hope it would be a choice arrived it with input from both parties involved in creating the pregnancy.

Mike

There's an elephant in the room. His come to Jesus over the abortion issue didn't change his sexual behavior one bit. Even after all he learned about condoms he still didn't practice safe sex.

Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2010, 08:57:46 AM »
  Feticide and abortion are hardly new concepts, especially with the law.  Abortion views that center around the moment of conception are (relatively) new.  It's a testament to the modern anti-abortion Moral Majority movement that so many are still swayed by this, but then all of you grew up around Roe v. Wade. 


There are actually a number of things that are relatively new in the world.  Serious opposition to the death penalty, (to return to the OP) is one of them--at least on the level of states actually doing away with it.  Even Ashoka, that most idealistic of Buddhist rulers, didn't do that, although he may have limited its use.  Growing numbers of people talking about animal rights is a very new thing, at least in the West.  How many people, fifty years ago, had a problem with a fur coat?  How could all of this growing feeling for life and the right to life, if it extends even to animals, not have extended to the fetus in the womb? 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2010, 09:02:10 AM »
There are actually a number of things that are relatively new in the world.  Serious opposition to the death penalty, (to return to the OP) is one of them--at least on the level of states actually doing away with it.  Even Ashoka, that most idealistic of Buddhist rulers, didn't do that, although he may have limited its use.  Growing numbers of people talking about animal rights is a very new thing, at least in the West.  How many people, fifty years ago, had a problem with a fur coat?  How could all of this growing feeling for life and the right to life, if it extends even to animals, not have extended to the fetus in the womb? 

That's nice Nestor, but we're discussing abortion not one of your tangents.  Do you believe in a woman's right to chose or not?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2010, 09:56:49 AM »
That's nice Nestor, but we're discussing abortion not one of your tangents.  Do you believe in a woman's right to chose or not?

Actually, we're discussing the death penalty, if the idea of respecting the original post means anything.  That discussion quickly broadened out to include abortion, which, since they are both questions of the right to life, is not surprising. 

You said that the idea that human life begins at conception, and therefore deserves the same protection under law as any other human life, is relatively new.  I pointed out in response that there are many ideas which are relatively new, not least of which is serious, practical opposition to the death penalty.  If you want to say that anti-abortion views are strange because they are relatively new or not supported by the early church, you can then say the same thing about anti-death penalty views. 

For you to introduce this line of argument, and then say that I am "going off on a tangent" when I respond to it, is frankly odd.  If anything, by returning to the death penalty I was trying to nudge the discussion back to the OP and his concern.  To call that a tangent is something more than odd. 

As for your personal question, I believe in a woman's right to choose many, many things.  But I assume abortion is what you meant by that euphemism.  As for the fetus in the womb, I am unable to see "it" as anything other than a living human being.  So no, that is one "choice" in which I do not believe. 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2010, 10:04:57 AM »
As for the fetus in the womb, I am unable to see "it" as anything other than a living human being.  So no, that is one "choice" in which I do not believe.  

Since you believe that abortion is murder, what do you propose be done in terms of public policy?  Is it safe to assume that you advocate making abortion illegal and prosecuting both doctors and women to the same degree as non-fetal/womb murder?  If not, why not?

Additionally, are you willing to put your money where you mouth is and have all pre/post natal care paid for as well as huge amounts of orphanages?  If not, why not?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 10:12:26 AM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline WillyWump

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2010, 10:27:29 AM »
He didn't have the abortions.
the vacuum wasn't shoved up his twat.

Oh that it could have been.

MtD

Of course I didnt ahve the abortions, but thanks for setting that straight for everyone M. If you would read and digesst my post perhaps you would see that I was invovled and that it had a huge effect on me. I know perhaps you find it odd that an abortion can also affect a man, but I'm here to say that it most certainly can.

"Who gives a shit what he thinks" - Primarily it is about women yes, but as a man who has been greatly affected by abortions why cant I have a strong belief on the issue, hence my post.

I was certainly hoping you would add something more concrete to the discussion than jsut ridiculing my inability to remember how many abortions WE had....and also musing about the joy of potentially having the vacuum shoved up my twat.

-W
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 10:35:19 AM by WillyWump »
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Online Jeff G

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2010, 10:42:13 AM »
This thread has potential to leave some very good people with hurt feelings . Is it really worth it guys ?   

Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2010, 10:56:32 AM »
Since you believe that abortion is murder, what do you propose be done in terms of public policy?  Is it safe to assume that you advocate making abortion illegal and prosecuting both doctors and women to the same degree as non-fetal/womb murder?  If not, why not?

Additionally, are you willing to put your money where you mouth is and have all pre/post natal care paid for as well as huge amounts of orphanages?  If not, why not?

To the first question: the motives of prosecution and punishment are revenge, the reform of the criminal, and the protection of society.  I reject revenge as a motive.  I hardly think any criminals are being reformed or made better people by the prison system as we currently have it; on the contrary.  That leaves protection of society.  To put anyone in prison is to deprive him of his right to liberty, but if someone comes into my apartment and kills me or steals all my things today, there is a chance that he will do the same thing to you tomorrow.  The only way to protect you and everyone else, as far as I can see, is to put him in prison.  A woman who has had an abortion does not pose a comparable threat to society, so I do not see why she should be prosecuted or punished in the same way.  The doctor performing abortion is another matter.  

I actually had an abortion doctor as a student once.  He was a very cheerful, friendly man, a Santa Claus type.  Most of his classmates were very young Europeans, and they all had ambivalent but largely negative feelings about abortion.  At one point one student described how in Ireland, where abortion is not or was not legal, there are or were a lot of homeless children.  "See!" he exclaimed, "it would have been better if their mothers had had abortions."  That was the moment in which my opposition to abortion crystalized into something stronger.  To say that people are better off dead than poor strikes me as so horrifying, so gross a perversion of the human soul, that I thought then that a lifetime of defending abortion, let alone actualy performing it, took a terrible toll on the defender or practitioner as much as on anyone else.  

For your second question, I hardly see why it needs to be asked.  I think I have gone on record as believing that all people have a right to decent health care.  Why would that not include pre- and post-natal care?  And of course a society that actually prohibits abortion takes upon itself a responsibility to provide humane alternatives and active support for mothers and children.    Sane sex education and the encouragement and availability of condoms would also be a big part of the solution, and hopefully prevent the need for "huge" amounts of orphanages.  

When I was young there was a lesbian couple in my family who decide to get pregnant (obviously only one member of the couple would have) and have a child.   They at first wanted to inseminate the one with the sperm of the brother of the other, but this brother refused.  Anyway what followed was a nightmare.  Attempt after attempt failed, I don't know why.  They lost most of their money, there was medical trauma to the partner who was making the attempts, and they finally broke up--they who had been one of the happiest couples I knew.  It all seemed tragically unnecessary to me.  There are children in orphanages who dream of the kind of home they could have given.  Why go through all this trauma rather than simply adopt a child?  Blood-lines and race do not have the importance to us which they had to our ancestors.  I suspect that our society would be quite open to adoption, something that would also make "huge numbers" of orphanages less necessary.  

Finally, I reject "ends justifying the means" reasoning.  Laws are made based on what is right, not what the consequences are.  Even if you could prove to me now that the death penalty was a powerful deterrent of crime, I would not then support it for that reason.  

Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2010, 11:01:05 AM »
This thread has potential to leave some very good people with hurt feelings . Is it really worth it guys ?    

I didn't see this until after I posted my last statement.  I would probably have posted it anyway since Miss P asked a direct question and I suppose it deserved to be answered.  

But thank you for the sane statement.  We're all dramatically different people who are together here for the single reason that we're all dealing with HIV and can support each other in that struggle.  It would be sad if we allowed something like our opinions on abortion to interfere with that.  

Having said this, may I return completely to the OP? 

TednLou wrote: 

Quote
If you don't have a problem with the death penalty, I think stories like these should give you pause.  It seems like I hear of prisoners being found innocent on a monthly basis after serving many years in prison.  Unfortunately for some in this story, the facts came too late as some were already put to death.  The North Carolina crime lab is accused of hiding evidence to come to the conclusion they and prosecutors wanted.  Michael Jordan's father is involved in this story as he was murdered.  I wonder just how many innocent people are in prison or have been put to death

There was someone at my church about seven years ago whose main work was documenting the executions of innocent people, and using that to protest the death penalty.  We had a long conversation.  I said that while I was fanatically against the death penalty, I didn't think the "innocent victims" argument worked for two reasons.  First of all, if you believed the death penalty was just, you wouldn't feel that the execution of the innocent was a reason to abolish it; it would be enough to get a more fair judiciary, and really apply the "beyond reasonable doubt" principle.  Secondly, if you do make the argument, you have to abolish prisons too, since putting an innocent person in jail is almost as horrifying as killing him. 

To my first argument, he pointed out that if perfect justice was not a reasonable hope, then that would still be a good argument for not inflicting death on people who might be innocent.  To the second, he said it depended on how much time passed before the innocence of the accused was discovered.  If you've found out that I didn't kill the guy after all, five years after you put me behind bars, you can release me from jail and give me some serious compensation.  If you had executed me, what can you do but apologize to my family?  On the other hand, if you don't find out that the person is innocent until after he's been rotting in jail for fifty years, then that does indeed seem almost as bad as unjust execution. 

Bottom line: if I were on a jury, I would say innocent unless I could really have not the shadow of a doubt that the accused was guilty.  Couldn't we avoid all this horror just by remembering that basic principle? 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 11:14:29 AM by Nestor »
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2010, 11:15:09 AM »
Of course laws have consequences, Nestor -- just look at what making abortion illegal has done for Latin America.  To state that laws should be made without regard to consequences is astoundingly stupid.

link

Lesson 1: Outlawing abortion does not stop women from having them. "What do I care if abortion is legal or illegal?" Marcela E. told me in 2004 in Argentina, where abortion generally is banned. "If I have to do it, I have to do it." The 32-year-old mother of three had a clandestine abortion after her husband raped her.

A community organizer in Argentina told me: "You will not believe what women end up putting in their uteruses to abort." I wish I didn't.

I have spoken to women who used knives, knitting needles, rubber tubes, even pieces of wood to pry open their uteruses. Some got access to abortive medicines that in theory lower the possibility of direct infection but that caused serious complications when they took them without medical assistance. Affluent women suffered fewer traumatic ordeals, often traveling to the U.S. for the procedure or sneaking off to upscale private Latin America clinics where, on paper, they had surgery for appendicitis.

Lesson 2: Providing limited exceptions to an abortion ban does little to improve access to safe abortions.

In reality very few, if any, women get such "non-punishable" abortions because there are no clear procedures. Fearing that they'd be charged with a crime, many of the women I interviewed who might have qualified for a legal abortion because they had been raped or because their health was endangered by the pregnancy did not dare to out themselves as potential abortion candidates. They went straight for the illegal and mostly unsafe back-alley abortions. A large proportion of maternal mortality in Latin America is caused directly by the consequences of such unsafe abortions.

Lesson 3: In Latin America, as everywhere else, the best way to stop abortion is to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Women and girls act within the circumstances imposed upon them. In Latin America, where contraceptives are inaccessible and sex is stigmatized (through cultural expectations that they be virginal and uneducated about sex), unwanted pregnancies are more common; not surprisingly, there is a higher proportion of abortions to pregnancies than in, for example, the U.S. The simple fact is that women with unwanted or imposed pregnancies would have preferred not to need abortions.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 11:21:40 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2010, 11:26:04 AM »
To state that laws are made without regard to consequences is astoundingly stupid.


Thank you for that generous distortion of what I said.  Ends do not justify means.  One does not do the wrong thing even if it might have good consequences; one does not avoid doing the right thing even the consequences are difficult.  Do you oppose the death penalty?  If someone could prove that imposing the dealth penalty with rigor resulted in less crime, would you then support the death penalty?  If not, why not? 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2010, 11:37:49 AM »
Do you oppose the death penalty?  If someone could prove that imposing the dealth penalty with rigor resulted in less crime, would you then support the death penalty?  If not, why not?  

Show me that it results in less crime.  Otherwise you're just talking out of your ass, as usual.

ps: I enjoyed how you disregarded the consequences of abortion being illegal in Latin America.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 11:41:52 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2010, 11:44:58 AM »
Bottom line: if I were on a jury, I would say innocent unless I could really have not the shadow of a doubt that the accused was guilty.  Couldn't we avoid all this horror just by remembering that basic principle? 

What if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the accused committed a horrible crime, for example it was recorded on video? Or someone like Timothy McVeigh who admits, without remorse, he killed 168 men, women and children in the Oklahoma City bombing?

Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2010, 11:49:18 AM »
Show me that it results in less crime.  Otherwise you're just talking out of your ass, as usual.

No comment.  I answered every one of your questions, you evade mine.  You stated a general principle that we make laws with their consequences in view.  I asked you hypothetically if a good law (abolishing the death penalty in the example) had a bad consequence, whether that would make the law less good.  
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2010, 11:50:57 AM »
No comment.  I answered every one of your questions, you evade mine.  You stated a general principle that we make laws with their consequences in view.  I asked you hypothetically if a good law (abolishing the death penalty in the example) had a bad consequence, whether that would make the law less good. 

There's no reason for me to answer your hypothetical -- I don't live in the made up world of Nestorland.  I presented a real world consequence, you can't do the same.  You fail.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2010, 11:57:54 AM »
What if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the accused committed a horrible crime, for example it was recorded on video? Or someone like Timothy McVeigh who admits, without remorse, he killed 168 men, women and children in the Oklahoma City bombing?

It doesn't matter. You either believe in the death penalty or you don't. No caveats.

Offline David Evans

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2010, 12:00:54 PM »
Some of the main purposes of this forum are exposure to new ideas and information, open and free flowing (but respectful) discussion, and opportunities to find support. This, however, is a very loaded topic about which debate seems rarely to result in changed minds. If, based on your religious or moral beliefs, abortion is tantamount to murder, then nothing anyone says is likely to change your position. Debate about the death penalty, is also frequently difficult and rarely changes people's minds.

I won't ask you guys not to get into this debate, but I will ask you to refrain from getting personal, and I will lock the discussion if it gets out of hand.

David

Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2010, 12:10:38 PM »
What if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the accused committed a horrible crime, for example it was recorded on video? Or someone like Timothy McVeigh who admits, without remorse, he killed 168 men, women and children in the Oklahoma City bombing?

Well, then I would say guilty.  The point is, that we recognize that in a lot of cases we simply will not know, finally, whether the person on trial is innocent or guilty.  In those cases it is better to let a guilty person go free than to put an innocent person behind bars.  That's where the "innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" comes in.  Tednlou began this thread by showing how many innocent people are, sickeningly, found guilty and put in jail--even killed in some cases.  I assumed that some of this comes from juries saying "guilty" in cases where there ought to have been a reasonable doubt, and they therefore ought to have said "innocent".  But since TednLou went further and pointed to prosecutors going so far as even to fabricate evidence, perhaps our problems go even deeper than we knew.  
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 12:15:45 PM by Nestor »
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline WillyWump

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2010, 12:35:44 PM »
It doesn't matter. You either believe in the death penalty or you don't. No caveats.

I think this is true. However one can believe in the death penalty but not agree with how it is handed out.

I believe in the death penalty...If it can be shown unequivocally (not beyond a reasonable doubt as that threshold is not absolute) that he person commited a capitol offense with overwhelming eyewitness evidence (Mc veigh, Hassan, etc..), or in the case that a prisoner has shown that he continues to be a threat to human life such as the prisoner that continues to kill in prison.

I do not believe in the death penalty on "taintable" evidence alone, such as blood evidence only.
I think we need to tighten the death penalty eligibility to only those that have overwhelming eyewitness evidence.


TO Philly and NEstors earlier points on abortion:

Very good points raised by Philly and Nestor.

Lesson 3: In Latin America, as everywhere else, the best way to stop abortion is to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
(and to Nestors point)
As Ive said repeatedly, Condoms, Condoms, Condoms. The best way to address the abortion problem is to have a change in the way we view condoms. We need to have a change in thought in that...instead of condoms being an option, condoms need to be a required part of sex. We need to get to the mindset that sex=the absolute use of condoms. How do we achieve this goal? We start them young, the younger the better. Parents need to take the lead in this effort as well as schools. So many parents are afraid to broach the subject of condoms because they fear they "will have to talk about sex" or that it would mean their children would think it was carte blanche to have sex. Newsflash...kids are having sex younger and younger these days, its not unusual at all these days to hear about 12 and 13y/o having sex (and getting pregnant). A simplistic example of this would be the Birds and bees discussion. When a child asks "how are babies made?" the response should be centered heavily on condom usage ie." a baby is made when a man and a woman choose not to use a condom" then go into the actual mechanics of it. A child should enter the sexual age KNOWING that sex is only sex when a condom is used (sex= condoms). How many times does this critical discussion occur without even a mention of condoms, or merely tacking it on as a sidenote?? America needs to get over it's stuffiness over sex and make it a requirement that condoms are available in schools (IMHO beginning around 6th grade), THe pill should also be available, without the need of parental consent in High School. Every child should have a condom in their backpack by High School. Drill this condom issue repeatedly into these young minds (hit them young and hit them hard) and the new mindset of the young generation has a real chance to change.  Will this eliminate all need for abortions as birth control? Of course not. However I propose that it will drastically reduce the need in the long run. It's all about the mindset.

Regarding adoption. I agree. Adoption needs to be seen as a viable and real alternative to abortion. Again it'a all about the mindset of the populace. We need to get to the point that instead of  immediatley jumping to an abortion we need to realize that although for whatever reason a child "would not be right for me right now" It would be right for someone else, who cannot have a child and is looking desperately for a child. Nestor brings up a good point about gay couples wanting to adopt. The US needs to make it easier for gay couples to adopt (perhaps they are the most captive audience in wanting to adopt). Similar story to NEstor's, I have a lesbian couple in the family, they were unable to adopt an American child so they adopted a child from China, they are now in the process of adopting twins in India. While the majority of states Allow or do not blatantly deny a LGBT couple from adopting, a few do such as Florida. Even in those states that allow it they make it covertly difficult for LGBT's to adopt. Not to mention the red tape and bureacracy, and costs invloved for any US adoption.

However, in speaking to the difficulty of  Adoptions in the US, they do not always have to occur through a state agency. I knew of a girl that found a couple that wanted a child, I beleive they found each other in the newspaper(I could be wrong). The couple entered into a contract with this girl and the girl was compensated greatly, was even given a new car to drive, and worked for the couple for a time. The birth occured and both the couple and the mother were happy, there were no problems (yes, im aware that some of these scenarios turn bad with the birth mother having second thoughts before or after the birth, however I believe they are in the minority.

-W
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 12:59:51 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2010, 12:46:04 PM »

I believe in the death penalty...If it can be shown unequivocally (not beyond a reasonable doubt as that threshold is not absolute) that he person commited a capitol offense with overwhelming eyewitness evidence (Mc veigh, Hassan, etc..), or in the case that a prisoner has shown that he continues to be a threat to human life such as the prisoner that continues to kill in prison.

What is gained by society with the death penalty versus life imprisonment?
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2010, 01:09:23 PM »
What is gained by society with the death penalty versus life imprisonment?

With life imprisonment society:

1) has to provide food, housing, clothing, exercise, legal services, medical care and 24 hour supervision for someone for the rest of their life-- services that we don't always provide our own citizens.

2) cannot be guaranteed that the prisoner will not harm staff or other prisoners

3) cannot be guaranteed that the prisoner will not escape and harm someone else

Life imprisonment is nothing but an expenditure.


Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2010, 01:15:32 PM »
What is gained by society with the death penalty versus life imprisonment?

Nothing other than a masturbatory sense of retribution. Some people believe in that "eye for an eye" philosophy and nothing can change their way of thinking.

I'm finna bust some heads to the white meat based on some of the stuff that has been written within this thread. From this point I'm just gonna mark it as read so that I see no more of it.
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Offline Ann

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2010, 01:19:12 PM »
Otherwise you're just talking out of your ass, as usual.

Philly, cool your jets. The comment from you above is bordering on flamebait. If you can't be polite/diplomatic in your responses, don't respond.

Same goes for everyone else participating in this thread. If you cannot play nice, go read another thread instead of responding to this one. If we continue to get borderline flamebait responses, this thread will be locked.

Ann
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2010, 01:20:25 PM »
With life imprisonment society:

1) has to provide food, housing, clothing, exercise, legal services, medical care and 24 hour supervision for someone for the rest of their life-- services that we don't always provide our own citizens.

2) cannot be guaranteed that the prisoner will not harm staff or other prisoners

3) cannot be guaranteed that the prisoner will not escape and harm someone else

Life imprisonment is nothing but an expenditure.



source

The average cost of defending a trial in a federal death case is $620,932, about 8 times that of a federal murder case in which the death penalty is not sought.
...
The death penalty in the U.S. is an enormously expensive and wasteful program with no clear benefits. All of the studies on the cost of capital punishment conclude it is much more expensive than a system with life sentences as the maximum penalty. In a time of painful budget cutbacks, states are pouring money into a system that results in a declining number of death sentences and executions that are almost exclusively carried out in just one area of the country. As many states face further deficits, it is an appropriate time to consider whether maintaining the costly death penalty system is being smart on crime.
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2010, 01:58:16 PM »

Willy, for what it's worth, I was moved by what you shared.  I respect your stance on the matter even though I do not agree with it.  My opinion of you will not change simply because of this, not fickle here homie.

Thomas

PS I learned a valuable lesson here last week after basically being called a racist in so many words due to my neutral stance on a subject.  This, of course, after attending the forums for 5 years and having shown people very well who I am regarding such matters.  Always remember everyone people who casually change their opinion of you, so easily, are not the type you really want to be around.  Lucky for all of us they are few............

« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 01:58:17 AM by skeebo1969 »
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2010, 02:33:10 PM »
source

The average cost of defending a trial in a federal death case is $620,932, about 8 times that of a federal murder case in which the death penalty is not sought.
...
The death penalty in the U.S. is an enormously expensive and wasteful program with no clear benefits. All of the studies on the cost of capital punishment conclude it is much more expensive than a system with life sentences as the maximum penalty. In a time of painful budget cutbacks, states are pouring money into a system that results in a declining number of death sentences and executions that are almost exclusively carried out in just one area of the country. As many states face further deficits, it is an appropriate time to consider whether maintaining the costly death penalty system is being smart on crime.

An excellent argument for making the death penalty process more efficient.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2010, 02:41:10 PM »
An excellent argument for making the death penalty process more efficient.

Yeah, it works so well in China, Iran, Cuba and Saudi Arabia.  Such great friends we keep in this practice.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 02:42:41 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #88 on: August 23, 2010, 02:52:39 PM »
There's no reason for me to answer your hypothetical -- I don't live in the made up world of Nestorland.  I presented a real world consequence, you can't do the same.  You fail.

I really do not see how my question was unclear.  I began by saying that to my eyes, the fetus is a person, and therefore has the right to life.  Negative practical consequences of anti-abortion laws do not make the fetus less a person or the killing of that person less wrong.  

As an analogy, I proposed my own opposition to the death penalty.  I oppose it because it is wrong, in my view, not because I think abolishing it has beneficial consequences to society.  In my view even the worst criminals remain human beings who have the right to life.  Even if you could prove to me that having the death penalty led to major social benefits, greater safety, less crime, etc., that would do nothing to make me change my view.  If it doesn't make the criminal less a person, or killing less a crime, why would it?  

Hence my hypothetical question: I wanted to find out whether your oppostion to the death penalty, if you are opposed to it, was based only on practical considerations or on an absolute conviction of the human being's right to life.  I regard that as a vital question; from your "made up world of Nestorland" comment you clearly do not.  

Apparently the idea of doing what is right, because it is right, regardless of the consequences, is an unpopular one.  

Quote
ps: I enjoyed how you disregarded the consequences of abortion being illegal in Latin America.

First, why should I have regarded it?  You havent' responded to every one of my statements in this thread.  If we all did every thread would quickly grow to encyclopaedic length.  

Secondly, it is, as I tried to explain above, irrelevent.  If it does not show that the fetus is not a human being, how can it change my view of the nature of abortion?  

But since you want a comment, here goes.  First, it mainly says that one consequence of abortion being illegal is that women get abortions anyway.  That strikes me as both logically wrong and impractical.  Logically wrong because women getting abortions anyway isn't a consequence of abortion being illegal, but rather something that happens despite abortion being illegal.  There is a difference.  Practically wrong because the implied advice is not followed in any other case.  Stealing is illegal, yet theft still happens.  That is not an argument for legalizing theft.  

Secondly, it states that women get illegal abortions in gruesome ways.  If a woman inserts a knife into herself, that is a consequence not primarily of abortion being illegal but of a whole host of social and moral problems which need to be solved before the root causes can be addressed.  But you had already asked me whether society should take upon itself the responsibility of dealing humanely with the unwanted pregnancies that result from prohibiting abortion, and I said that it goes without saying that it should.  

Finally, the article you cite concludes by laying the blame for the problem not on anti-abortion laws but on lack of contraception.  Since I clearly stated above that I believe strongly in sex education and the availability of contraception, I fail to see how that is a meaningful response to my argument.  

I respect people who say that the fetus, up until some certain point, does not look to them like a human being and that therefore they have no problem with abortions in early stages of pregnancy.  In fact, just before you made your "out of your ass" and "Nestorland" comments I was on the point of saying that I appreciated your contribution to the question of ensoulment and the quickening.  The people with whom I have a problem are those who champion the "right to choose" without appearing to have given hard, serious thought to the question of the humanity of the fetus.  

On the death penalty, there is no question that the criminal remains a person.  I suppose death-penalty proponents feel that by committing certain heinous crimes one can forfeit one's right to life.  I do not, but I'm not sure that even I would maintain this in an absolutist way.  Are there societies where there is not alternative to the death penalty?  A small nomadic tribe, for example, is clearly not equipped to maintain a secure prison system.  If a psychopath arises in their midst, what can they do?  I would still hope that some alternative could be found to killing the person, but I cannot say with certainty that one can.  We, however, do have clear alternatives to death, and I think we should use them.  

GSOgymrat, you say:  

Quote
Life imprisonment is nothing but an expenditure.

I see the ideal prison (not the dismal ones we actually have) as a place where criminals can become better people and, yes, do some useful work.  

Rev. Moon says:  

Quote
I'm finna bust some heads to the white meat based on some of the stuff that has been written within this thread.

This reaction surprises me.  Some opinions sadden me, especially when they seem to me to indicate a low valuation of human life.  But they do not make me want to commit violence.  Only insults do that.  
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
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Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2010, 02:55:52 PM »
An excellent argument for making the death penalty process more efficient.

See, this is why I like to stick to moral, rather than practical, arguments.  If you say the death penalty has killed innocents, the answer is simply to try harder only to convict the guilty.  If you it's racially discriminatory, the answer is to get rid of the racial discrimination.  If you say it's expensive, then just make it more efficient.  The only good argument against the death penalty is that it is morally wrong, full stop.  Same with abortion.  Dealing with consequences comes later. 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2010, 03:20:30 PM »
See, this is why I like to stick to moral, rather than practical, arguments.

In my opinion ignoring the practical application of a philosophy isn't very useful. We could say that it is a moral imperative that every person on this planet have enough to eat but if we don't have a plan, or the will, to accomplish that goal then nothing changes.

The only good argument against the death penalty is that it is morally wrong, full stop.  Same with abortion.  Dealing with consequences comes later. 

Of course you would need to demonstrate that abortion and the death penalty are morally wrong. You could say they are morally wrong because the Bible says so, or because violence is never acceptable, or some other reason.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #91 on: August 23, 2010, 03:25:48 PM »
You could say they are morally wrong because the Bible says so

Personally I would hesitate to employ that argument seeing as how I take hot loads of cum up my ass, but hey that's just me.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Nestor

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2010, 06:05:04 PM »
In my opinion ignoring the practical application of a philosophy isn't very useful. We could say that it is a moral imperative that every person on this planet have enough to eat but if we don't have a plan, or the will, to accomplish that goal then nothing changes.


Good points, thank you.  It would be going too far to say that we should ignore the practical application of a philosophy.  What I was trying to say was, first determine what is right and wrong, and then deal with the practical aspects.  I didn't say "practicality be damned".  Often arguments around abortion and the death penalty revolve around secondary questions--does the death penalty deter crime?  Does banning abortion lead to more poverty?  I cannot engage in these arguments until it has first been determined what kind of act we're dealing with--the murder of a child, something morally benign, etc. 

In the example you give, I think it would be silly to say that there is a moral imperative that everyone should have food, because in the end we do not have ultimate control over the food supply.  We can say that when there is limited food, it is moral that that food should be somewhat equally distributed; nobody should starve while someone else lives in opulence.  We can say there is a moral obligation to work as hard as possible to avoid a famine. 

In terms of abortion, again, I agreed almost at the beginning that a society that comes out against abortion takes upon itself the responsibility to care for the mothers and children and to deal humanely with the other consequensces.  What I emphatically am not saying is that we can all sit in ivory towers talking first principles, and who cares about real people facing real problems?  But the first principles come first. 

Quote
Of course you would need to demonstrate that abortion and the death penalty are morally wrong. You could say they are morally wrong because the Bible says so, or because violence is never acceptable, or some other reason.

But that's precisely what I'm saying we should be discussing, before getting to pragmatic questions.  In the case of abortion, I suppose it all hinges on whether the fetus is a human being.  If it is, I don't see how there can be any denial that it is an innocent human being, or that the abortion is killing "it".  I assume we are all in agreement that killing is wrong!

As for the death penalty, it's a question of whether, with certain crimes, the criminal forfeits the right to life which I think we all agree most people have.  For me, the answer is no; I see the right to life as so intrinsic to the human being that it can never (or almost never) be forfeited.  For others the answer may well be yes.  Some crimes are so horrific that, the argument goes, people who commit them put themselves beyond the pale and merit death.  I do not support that position, but I respect it. 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #93 on: August 23, 2010, 08:13:33 PM »
*kicks the skeleton of what was once a horse*

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2010, 08:35:05 PM »
*kicks the skeleton of what was once a horse*

Fret not dear child, an activist judge has stepped in to halt Obama from killing more babies.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: NC Crime Lab Accused of Hiding Evidence
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2010, 02:01:23 PM »
I had a strange 'opportunity".  We had the Fred Phelps folks here for a visit to send everyone to hell or some such thing.  I was standing outside of a community center near their protest.  You may have seen pictures of their work--the whole "God Hates Fags" posters et al.

I went up to one of the shrieking nimrods and said, "Are you prochoice?" and she spitted back at me, "absolutely not...babies (blahblahblah).  I pointed to her sign--she had the "Death is the cure" (meaning death from AIDS is the cure for homosexuality) one, and said "what if the baby is gay?"  The look on her face was priceless as she attempted to deal with the intellectual incongruity that she was trying to sort out.  Must be difficult when you hate so many.

 


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