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Author Topic: Having unprotected gay sex........  (Read 19676 times)

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Offline max123

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2010, 08:36:50 PM »
yes they have i just haven't got to it yet because i don't want to do it
like i dont need someone else to tell me its okay i have HIV i know that myself.
im just now starting to realize im okay, this dont change who i am as a person, and i will be here 1 yr 4 yrs 15 yrs from now and so one...
wow, well props to you man...it took me significantly longer to get comfortable in my new skin, in fact, i still am doing so. what's your secret?
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline leatherman

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2010, 09:10:19 PM »
i will be here 1 yr 4 yrs 15 yrs from now
now, don't limit yourself by taking such a negative view. ;D A bunch of members here have already hung around another 20-25 yrs and that was through some of the earliest years of this epidemic when the meds weren't as good as today's. You've got excellent numbers so far (cd4 513/viral load 204) and haven't had an OI. Depending on the trend of your next few lab results (over maybe the next year's worth of time), you may still be a long way from starting meds. If I were you I wouldn't be thinking short-term like 1 or 4 yrs but more like 30-40 yrs.  ;)

yes they have i just haven't got to it yet because i don't want to do it
like i dont need someone else to tell me its okay i have HIV i know that myself.
if you don't want to speak to a counselor about personal issues, might I suggest you spend some time reading through the excellent Lessons on this site to learn more about HIV, the treatments, and the prognosis. There's nearly 30 yrs  worth of knowledge accrued about this virus and everything related to it

And some things are still changing today. For example, in your OP you spoke about the fairly new topics of super-infection and re-infection. Right now, very little data has been studied yet and more information is yet to be learned about these issues. As I mentioned super-infection seems to be more of an issue of poz people with viral loads infecting each other and not poz people with undetectable viral loads infecting each other. Re-infection seems to also be rare as HIV treatment is in itself PREP/PEP, so this too might be untreated people (HIV poz people not on meds, not performing safe sex, or perhaps not even knowing that they are poz until too late) who are passing infections along to other untreated people.

Right now, you are in a unique position of knowing you are positive, with good lab numbers and not on medication. So as an untreated person, you may be interested in understanding these issues more, as they may affect you more, than say some of the people whom you have been talking too who are probably on medication and less likely to pass any infection (because of their low viral load) if they are having poz/poz bareback sex.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Joe K

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2010, 09:27:57 PM »
im sure ppl on here think im an ass lol and that is because my posts but i am the way i am and i will never change just as you will never change...

Sorry Bryan, but you are wrong about people changing. Most of us here have undergone profound changes since becoming poz, learning skills and adapting to the demands of our disease. Now that I have read your other posts, I think you are just an angry guy, with an axe to grind and so go at it! It's obvious you know everything, nobody could ever help you, so why come here? Why do you care what we think, when you can never change. Sounds like a big waste of our time...

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2010, 09:58:26 PM »
im far from a "saint" i am what we call human we all have flaws..

I know what you are.

MtD

Offline max123

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2010, 10:55:46 PM »
<andante>
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline Ann

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2010, 04:18:09 AM »
As I mentioned super-infection seems to be more of an issue of poz people with viral loads infecting each other and not poz people with undetectable viral loads infecting each other. Re-infection seems to also be rare as HIV treatment is in itself PREP/PEP, so this too might be untreated people (HIV poz people not on meds, not performing safe sex, or perhaps not even knowing that they are poz until too late) who are passing infections along to other untreated people.

Superinfection and reinfection are two terms used to describe the same thing.

The "super" in superinfection is super as in superimposed - one on top of the other - not as in super-duper.

Superinfection means having one strain of the virus on top of the other, in other words, being reinfected with another strain.

As a phenomenon, it's pretty rare whether you call it superinfection or reinfection.


edited to fix crappy spelling
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 04:25:19 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2010, 04:46:06 AM »
wow, well props to you man...it took me significantly longer to get comfortable in my new skin, in fact, i still am doing so. what's your secret?

I don't know?
The people that i talk to i guess,there like "Oh..That's cool, it don't change you."
like most of the people i talk to (that are negative) don't seem to mind that i am positive.
At first i found that very strange! There has been like "maybe" two or three people that have stopped talking to me because of it.



what is....PREP/PEP..?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 04:47:53 AM by bryan21 »

Offline max123

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2010, 08:04:14 AM »
I don't know?
The people that i talk to i guess,there like "Oh..That's cool, it don't change you."
like most of the people i talk to (that are negative) don't seem to mind that i am positive.
At first i found that very strange! There has been like "maybe" two or three people that have stopped talking to me because of it.



what is....PREP/PEP..?

interesting take on it. imo while hiv shouldn't control you nor define you, it does change you...not so much in who you are (as a person), but more so in what you do and how you do it. for me, it's the most challenging thing i've ever been faced with. that's great that you've been so supported by the majority of those that you've told of your status. nonetheless, since you're doing so well, meeting with a counselor should be a drop in the bucket for you, so why not just do it to make sure your not missing anything?

do a prep/pep search...there's alot of info right on here
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2010, 08:52:01 AM »
Wow,  seems like everytime I get busy with something and leave the forums for a few days all hell breaks loose in a thread.

Bryan.  Welcome back.  I'm glad to see you returned and are participating.  One of the most valuable things I do in dealing with my HIV is to question what others tell me and only accept what I agree with and to rigorously inspect what I disagree with.  I believe you are doing this.

With regards to bareback sex and HIV and superinfection... you are correct, observations do not match rhetoric and threats.  i.e. the "if you have unprotected poz to poz sex you will get it again" does not synch with the observed reality in the poz gay community.

I tend to look at safer sex like a pool party.  Some people sit out completely and only dream about being in the water.  Some people get in, but don't stay long.  Others get in, but only mingle with a few people.  Others hop on a toy and float into the middle of the crowd.  Where are you comfortable?  That's the only place that matters.


I personally have not found any conclusive cause and effect evidence that I believe is credible that supports a real and present danger risk level for superinfection.  the handful of isolated cases involve vastly higher risk rates. 
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline mecch

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2010, 09:05:26 AM »
The people that i talk to i guess,there like "Oh..That's cool, it don't change you."
like most of the people i talk to (that are negative) don't seem to mind that i am positive.
At first i found that very strange! There has been like "maybe" two or three people that have stopped talking to me because of it.

When you were HIV-, weren't you be "cool" with some friend telling you he was HIV+
I bet, probably you were.

Course it is strange when it personally affects you.  I have appreciated both reactions:  1) people who hear my news and stay pretty cool, just want to hear that I'm OK, or just say I hear there is a pill and its no problem.  and 2) people who get concerned and ask questions cause of the seriousness of HIV.  I think we need both reactions.  Cause the reality of living with HIV includes both emotions.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:12:10 AM by mecch »
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2010, 09:23:06 AM »
I actually made  a half hearted attempt at stupid crazy sex this evening.  No luck, which made everything worse.  It was because I felt so bad about everything, i just wanted to feel sexy, to feel worthy, and frankly, the costs seemed like benefits.  My infection is slowly peeling back the layers of my life, day by day and week by week.  The future is more uncertain now than ever, but I'm supposed to keep hacking through the daily grind like I give a shit.  My partner is afraid to be in the same room with me and every time he gets the sniffles he is convinced he's gotten my virus, despite us NOT having had sex.  I told him he was being ridiculous, and he actually told me I needed to "see it from his perspective".  See WHAT from his perspective?  That he's concerned the disease is fucking airborn?  Its not like my dating options are that good if he leaves me either:  I scanned poz personals.  Of the ten guys on it, I think, maybe, one was within a decade of my age.  Paranoia has completely consumed me.  I live in constant fear that I'll be "found out".  Socially, I'm as good as a pariah.  I can't commit suicide, but I pray for some random accident.  More often than not, I wish it was 1986 so I could just fucking die in a few years and get it over with, instead I'm going to have to endure 40 more fucking years of this bullshit,not knowing whether there is anything down the road worth living for.  Even the fucking lepers of yesterday got to live amongst themselves and experience a degree of normalcy in that.  HIV is a horrible, horrible fucking thing, and the fact that it robs you of your life is only the tip of the iceberg.  Speeding up one's demise with the joys of sex may seem reasonable to someone who hasn't personally seen what the virus can do.  Not saying this is a good idea of course, but "sex as suicide" could be a rational cause for this lack of concern.

Try to be more sensitive... some of these jaded old bitches have open wounds from losing all of their friends, lovers, and family in the 1980's.  What you said is essentially on par with walking into a holocaust survivors meeting and reminiscing about the good old nazi days..... Your opinion and point of view at the moment from the low spot you are in may be valid, but it caused alot of people to look down and feel hurt in remembering the hell they went through.

I'm not dissing your opinion.  I UNDERSTAND that you are hurt, pissed off, and need to get it off your chest.  Just please try not to hurt others in the process.  I can't fathom what it would be like to lose EVERY FUCKING FRIEND to HIV.  I would be incredibly bitter, jaded, and pissed off about it.

First off, they did it and there is something to be learned from observiing.  One of the most valuable things you can learn from someone who is 80 is what they did to make it to 80 when many others died at 50 or 60.


Now, the real issue is that your boyfriend is doing what I call "neg self-centered bull shit."  I suspected the halo would wear off eventually when aint-getting-nooky-itis set in.  I just didn't want to tell you it was coming because you need to work out your relationship issues with a minimum of outside "expertise" from the forums.  It's sort of like the Star Trek ethic that we should interfere in foreign worlds.....

1.  You are the one at risk, not him.  Period.  End of fucking discussion.  He can give you any number of colds, bugs, and other things which are hard to get rid of and make you sick for weeks on end.  

2.  What's the point of a relationship where you don't have sex?  Is it healthy for either of you?  A relationship is a social contract in which each of you provides and receives things you need.  Namely, love, compassion, passion, sex, and companionship.  When one or more of these is not being provided in one or both directions I think it's reasonable to sit down and evaluate the situation.  There are a few reasonable solutions: Proceed with corrective activity, continue and tolerate the shortage, part ways and move on.  While I know it's a tad cold for some people, this is essentially what goes on and what your choices are.  There is a real possibility that your bf will alienate you and never overcome his phobia to HIV.  In which case you can suffer or move on.

3. HIV doesn't care who you are...... really.  It exploits denial and stress....both of which go hand in hand.  You have a choice on nearly everything..... and I mean everything.  Every interaction, action, or inaction can be broken down to a sort of blackjack move.  Hit, Hold, Bust, Win.  Take, Stay, Walk. Live.  The goal for me is to do more taking, staying, and winning and less walking or busting.  So if your boyfriend is putting out and you aren't putting out for him you can modify the relationship or you can tolerate the relationship.  the right choice is ultimately between the two of you.  I think grandma deserves a visit and you know what I'm referring to.  You are entitled to passionate sex with another man, relationship or not.  

4. Paranoia.  Let's disarm the spider for a moment.  What would happen if someone found out?  Are they going to catch it because you work next to them?  NO.  If you happen to be around some ignorant piece of shit don't get involved in their problem.  It's THEIR problem.  I don't have a tattoo, but I don't worry about others.  Now, when I got hurt and had to go to the ER I made sure each medical professional knew I was poz.  that's just the right thing to do in my opinion.  But the rest of the world can kiss my ass with regards to HIV.  It's none of their business and I can do damn near anything they can do.  

If someone does bring it up, turn the tables.   Role play for a moment:
your co-worker: Hey, I hear you have the butt flu, HIV?
Me: Excuse me? what are you talking about?
YCW: Gabby Gossipalot said you were poz girl.
Me: That's wierd, how the fuck would Gabby know?  Not like I'd sleep with her skank ass.  She's like Metro, anyone with 25 cents can get a ride.  Except that on Sundays everyone rides for free!  
YCW: So do you have it?
Me: Does it matter?  Not like we're here to fuck now are we?  Let's say I did..... I'm not planning to exchange bodily fluids with you and I sure hope you aren't planning to exchange them with me.  It wouldn't matter.  Let's say I didn't..... you'd just be spreading nasty gossip and I'm sure there is something you can do that adds to our bonus and paychecks besides worry about my sex life.

at this point your co worker will generally drop the subject and move on.  You could also turn the tables and ask if they are poz which puts them on the spot.  You can also play dramatic....

YCW: Hey I heard you are poz?
Me: Really, who said that?
YCW: Gabby Gossipalot was telling everyone in the breakroom.
Me: That's nice.....
ycw: So are you?
Me: Yea I am.  does it matter?
ycw: No, not really, how did you get it?
Me: Well, I don't know... I use condoms all the time and My BF does too.
ycw: Do you think your bf gave it to you?
me: Probably not... .but he's the only one I have unprotected sex with.
ycw: So what now?
me: Hey can I ask you a favor?
ycw: Sure, what do you need?
me: Well, doc says I have 4 months to live... so I need someone to take my cat (sniffle), I need a witness to my will, and I'm going to tell my parents tonite and I could really use someone neutral there (wipe your eye).
[at this point your coworker will nearly freak]
ycw: Really? I thought it was treatable.
me: Nah, my doc says I have a new strain ........
ycw: What?
me: No, I'm just yanking your chain for being nosy.  I'm doing fine and plan to outlive my cat.  I've told everyone I thought had a need to know, and apparently Gabby thought better of it..... bitch.
ycw: Oh ok {relieved}
me: Have you been tested lately?  (turn tables)

Your going to need to develop the skill of confronting someone over your HIV when they bring it up.  at least work through mentally how you would deal with it.

As for life..... like everything it's your choice how you handle it.  

I don't think you need pills... I do think you need to get laid and tell your bf to get with the program or get going on the road.  Love is a 2 way street and you need some traffic baby!
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2010, 09:25:12 AM »
I don't know?
The people that i talk to i guess,there like "Oh..That's cool, it don't change you."
like most of the people i talk to (that are negative) don't seem to mind that i am positive.
At first i found that very strange! There has been like "maybe" two or three people that have stopped talking to me because of it.



what is....PREP/PEP..?

Those are essentially correct..... it doesn't change you as a person, but it changes your level of concern for health matters and imposes some new rules.

PREP/PEP is Post Exposure Prophylaxis.... which basically is a way of trying to prevent the infection from taking... has to be started within 24 hours of exposure and continued for a few months.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2010, 09:50:24 AM »


PREP/PEP is Post Exposure Prophylaxis.... which basically is a way of trying to prevent the infection from taking... has to be started within 24 hours of exposure and continued for a few months.

Not to get off topic, but this needs to be corrected. Pep is started as soon as possible, ( as you have stated),  But it only goes for four weeks.  


http://www.aids.org/factsheets/156-treatment-after-exposure-to-hiv-pep.html



Ray
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:54:15 AM by J.R.E. »
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 8/2514,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 11%

  
 62 years young.

Offline Ann

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2010, 10:02:49 AM »
PREP/PEP is Post Exposure Prophylaxis.... which basically is a way of trying to prevent the infection from taking... has to be started within 24 hours of exposure and continued for a few months.

Not quite.

PrEP is  pre-exposure prophylaxis, where hiv meds are taken before an exposure to hiv. An example of PrEP use is when a poz/neg couple want to conceive a baby the natural way.

PEP is post-exposure prophylaxis, where hiv meds are taken after an exposure. It must be started no later than 72 hours after exposure and it is taken for 28 days, not "a few  months".
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Granny60

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2010, 12:15:30 PM »
Be sure to have your doctor check with pharmacy before prescribing benzodiazapines. My husband takes Atripla and has to carry a warning card that says no medications in the class benzodiazapines  due to drug interactions that can  result in fatal reactions.  As to unprotected sex, we have met several poz friends since being diagnosed that have strains of HIV that are resistant to several medications. Actually so many that it makes us wonder why we did not have resistances.  A super infection of more than one strain can limit your options to treatment. We have a friend who was in ICU with pneumonia several times before the doctors finally found a med regimine to get his virus under control. Condoms are about as glamorous as a 400 lb  lady in shorts and t shirt soaked in sweat on a 104 degree humid day, and hard to find in a comfortable size & style,  but MUCH better than the alternative.

Offline Joe K

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2010, 12:21:26 PM »
Try to be more sensitive... some of these jaded old bitches have open wounds from losing all of their friends, lovers, and family in the 1980's.

You might try the same suggestion.

modified for clarity, it's just not worth it.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 06:06:22 PM by killfoile »

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2010, 08:38:08 PM »
Be sure to have your doctor check with pharmacy before prescribing benzodiazapines. My husband takes Atripla and has to carry a warning card that says no medications in the class benzodiazapines  due to drug interactions that can  result in fatal reactions.  As to unprotected sex, we have met several poz friends since being diagnosed that have strains of HIV that are resistant to several medications. Actually so many that it makes us wonder why we did not have resistances.  A super infection of more than one strain can limit your options to treatment. We have a friend who was in ICU with pneumonia several times before the doctors finally found a med regimine to get his virus under control. Condoms are about as glamorous as a 400 lb  lady in shorts and t shirt soaked in sweat on a 104 degree humid day, and hard to find in a comfortable size & style,  but MUCH better than the alternative.

Resistance and super-infection aren't necessarily the same thing. 

Resistance can occur with a single strain of HIV.

Super-infection simply involves different strains.

To clarify there are, in theory, different types of super-infection.

1. Cross-type  HIV1+HIV2:  This is a real danger as these are essentially two viruses.  However, HIV-2 is primarily a west coast, African issue.  HIV2 is thought to be much slower progression (based on what I understand).

2. Cross-group, HIV1M+HIV1N, problem is that M is the common one and everything else is an outlier. 

3. Cross-SubGroup. HIV1MB+HIV1MC.  This is the most likely issue you will face.  The various subtypes of HIV1M are distributed more or less geographically.... so if your sex involves people from other areas you may wind up with more than one subtype of HIV1M.  This is not a cut and dry thing as there are CRF's or Hybrid strains too.

The article referenced below goes on to claim that there are numerous superinfections, but makes no reference to studies or other documentation.

I sourced my data for this post from http://www.avert.org/hiv-types.htm  This appears to be an accurate source and is referenced with 26 footnotes for those inclined to do more reading.

As for superinfection:
Here are the articles of credible value that I could find using Google:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15995957 - 16 cases from 2002 to 2005  per US NIH.

I just couldn't find much that was relevant and not based on this single paper and credible.
I specifically discounted TheBody (in it's multiple flavors), wikipedia, and "forum" type sites as they are not credible scientific references.  They may contain facts and truths and opinions, but they are not hard scientific evidence.

So let's shoot the numbers.  2002 to 2005 is a good enough period for analysis of risk.

According to the US CDC, which I consider a reputable source,
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/factsheets/pdf/us_overview.pdf

there are approximately 1.1 Million people as of 2008 living with HIV.  This data is as of July 2010.
Regressing on the graph on page 2, it appears that 900,000 is a good number.

So let's skew the statistics to represent more risk and more conservatism, we will go with 800,000 which is the 1997 level.

The period in the study is 3 years, so out of 800,000 people there are 16 cases in 3 years.

The math, which is really small is that you have a .002% chance of being superinfected in a given year, assuming quite a few things like the superinfections occurred in that year and that the risk behavior is normal.

to put that in perspective that is a 1 in 50,000 chance.  In a given year you have a 1/750,000 chance of being hit by lightning..... and 1/6250 in your 80 year lifetime.
http://www.funny2.com/odds.htm
Odds of being possessed by satan are only 1 in 7,000
Dating a super model is a close second at 1:88,000
dating a millionaire - 1:215 (wow)
being murdered: 1:18,000 (better chance then superinfection.
killed in a transportation accident - 1:77
being a pro athlete : 1:22000 (twice as likely)


My point here is that the odds are pretty slim and still heavily influenced by actual risk exposure which translates simplyl into: How much sex are you having with how many different people?

The US Porn industry has a well documented sero-exclusion system that has permitted bareback sex with only the occassional infection due to outside intercourse.  My point here is that the HIV community has a relatively low rate of mixing between different geographies.  This carries more weight when you consider the socio-economic impact of HIV.  It's not like winning the lotto where you have tons of cash to jetset to your next piece of ass.  Thus, the economic status and geographic isolation act as a form of sero-exclusionary process to keep subtypes relatively isolated. 

Interestingly, Europe has seen an increase in subtype infection diversity.... I would guess this is due to the Eurozone increasing travel and exposure opportunities.

So ultimately, sex with 1 person isn't as risky as sex with 10 people which is still less than sex with 500 people per year.  And who you are having sex with matters.  Sex with 1 person who travels to Africa regularly is probably higher risk for subtype exposure diversity than the sex with 500 people in a year who don't travel at all.

The reality is that most of us have far fewer sex partners than we would like to fantasize about.

I'm not saying that super-infection can't happen... I'm just suggesting that observation indicates that it isn't happening as often as the hype would have you believe and that your real risk exposure behavior has alot to do with it.  Living on the Isle of Man and shagging 10 people a week who live there is different from being the "welcome hole" at a bath in NYC near the airport and playing international catcher each night of the week.

So, depending on your appetite for risk you may choose to wear a body condom, or not. 

I personally haven't found any convincing evidence to suggest that super infection represents a real and present danger to me as a gay man. 

What I have found is a history of sustained hedonism within the American Gay HIV community that is at total odds with the risk being propagated by ASO's.

To put it bluntly, Hep C is a bigger risk than re-infection.... and you have to work a little to catch Hep C in the course of ordinary anal intercourse.  Not to say you can't catch it.... just that it's hard to catch without blood to blood contact.  http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/C/cFAQ.htm#transmission (considered low risk per CDC)

Heck if you look at the treatment recommendations from the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/Populations/PDFs/RiskPopulationTable.pdf they don't even consider Hep C a risk unless you are an admitted IV drug user.  That tells you something as these are the guidelines most ASO's run under.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2010, 08:41:14 PM »
Not quite.

PrEP is  pre-exposure prophylaxis, where hiv meds are taken before an exposure to hiv. An example of PrEP use is when a poz/neg couple want to conceive a baby the natural way.

PEP is post-exposure prophylaxis, where hiv meds are taken after an exposure. It must be started no later than 72 hours after exposure and it is taken for 28 days, not "a few  months".


so what if someone had HIV and had unprotected sex with someone that is negative and told them to take this meds. they wouldn't get HIV?!?

Offline max123

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2010, 08:59:28 PM »

so what if someone had HIV and had unprotected sex with someone that is negative and told them to take this meds. they wouldn't get HIV?!?
that would be the intended goal of pep....post exposure prophylaxis. its a little more complicated than that...risk factors are assessed and arv meds prescribed, by a doc, within the said time frame. have you put someone at risk or is this just a random question?
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2010, 09:02:27 PM »

so what if someone had HIV and had unprotected sex with someone that is negative and told them to take this meds. they wouldn't get HIV?!?

In theory.... but it's not a license to go boink anything that moves without a condom.  Not sure where you are, but the laws vary from one place to the next and you don't need legal trouble.

The meds are EXPENSIVE (like $2000/mo).  The tests are expensive ($1200/pop).  So you have to either have good insurance or deep pockets, and it's simply not a long term solution.

Safe sex, and a monogamous relationship with someone who is poz are a better solution.

So how are things going for you?
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2010, 09:05:35 PM »
some of these jaded old bitches have open wounds from losing all of their friends, lovers, and family in the 1980's. 

... and you call yourself an activist

No wonder you can't get a date.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2010, 09:42:29 PM »
that would be the intended goal of pep....post exposure prophylaxis. its a little more complicated than that...risk factors are assessed and arv meds prescribed, by a doc, within the said time frame. have you put someone at risk or is this just a random question?

just a random question lol..and no i would never give anyone HIV!
shit i tell random people i have HIV i dont really care if people know or if they dont know.

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2010, 09:46:36 PM »
... and you call yourself an activist

No wonder you can't get a date.

Look, there are certainly people on here who are:
-Bitter
-Jaded
-Old
-Bitches.

A few individuals belong in more than one category, and some are certainly "jaded old bitches."  It becomes a problem when I attach names to the labels.  In this particular instance I was not writing about any one person.  By now, you should know I'm capable of outlining someone if I want to.

I think the labels are all relative and I'm sure to the OP I'm a jaded old bitch.  I've certainly been called bitter and jaded among other things.  I felt it was important to relate to WTF's post in order to communicate with him.  I acknowledged his point of view at the same time I acknowledged the significant pain that surviving the 80's and early 90's has caused for many LTS.  Nothing you or I can do will change what did not happen in the 80's and 90's nor what did.  

So rather than focusing in on the part you object to, why not reach a little higher.  You also neglected to mention the first part of the sentence "TRY TO BE MORE SENSITIVE....."  If you are going to quote, at least quote in full sentences.  Otherwise you might as well just pick words and letters out and reconstruct them to serve your purposes.  You can get almost any word out of my writing if you use the letters.  Partial quotes are as bad as misquotes.

As if on queu a few people thought I was calling them by name and have come screaming out of the corners with their literary sword at the ready.   Nobody handed anyone a sign that said "jaded old bitch" and forced them to run around waving it.  I call it like I see it and I'm not always going to make people happy.  If I lived through half of what I've heard about from the 80's I would be a bitter jaded bitch.  Count on it.  

All of which begs the question.  If you are so easily provoked, how do you handle people who aren't on your side?  Stress has to eat you alive if you let something minor like the mention of "jaded old bitches" set you off?

I mean, really?  I think my response would be: "And I'll get your little dog too my pretty..... muhahahaa" or "Yea, and if your lucky one day you'll be one too, and your luck will be better if you get out of my sight!"

Being old, bitter, bitchy, and jaded is sort of a battle scar that comes with surviving enough shit in life to be all of those things and be socially acceptable.  Grandmothers are frequently jaded old bitches.... and they have that right.  When you live 70 or 80 years, have diarrhea, cramps, hobble with a cane, are going bald, can't get laid, and see the doctor more than your family.... it tends to have that affect.  It's not so much an insult as it is a acknowledgement.....

So before you jump to conclusions..... at least look before you leap.  You should also know me by now that if I want to insult someone I'm not going to be around the bush.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:52:34 PM by hotpuppy »
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline max123

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2010, 09:48:08 PM »
just a random question lol..and no i would never give anyone HIV!
shit i tell random people i have HIV i dont really care if people know or if they dont know.
that's good to know
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2010, 09:53:19 PM »
just a random question lol..and no i would never give anyone HIV!
shit i tell random people i have HIV i dont really care if people know or if they dont know.

Well, it's a logical leap sort of thing. 

Good to know you have some morals and ethics.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2010, 09:54:26 PM »
No wonder you can't get a date.

Forgot to mention I had a good one last night as a matter of fact.   Not sure if it will develop, but I liked the guy and enjoyed the conversation.

NO, we didn't fuck either.   :-*
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2010, 10:48:01 PM »
Look, there are certainly people on here who are:
-Bitter
-Jaded
-Old
-Bitches.

A few individuals belong in more than one category, and some are certainly "jaded old bitches."  It becomes a problem when I attach names to the labels.  In this particular instance I was not writing about any one person.  By now, you should know I'm capable of outlining someone if I want to.

I think the labels are all relative and I'm sure to the OP I'm a jaded old bitch.  I've certainly been called bitter and jaded among other things.  I felt it was important to relate to WTF's post in order to communicate with him.  I acknowledged his point of view at the same time I acknowledged the significant pain that surviving the 80's and early 90's has caused for many LTS.  Nothing you or I can do will change what did not happen in the 80's and 90's nor what did.  

So rather than focusing in on the part you object to, why not reach a little higher.  You also neglected to mention the first part of the sentence "TRY TO BE MORE SENSITIVE....."  If you are going to quote, at least quote in full sentences.  Otherwise you might as well just pick words and letters out and reconstruct them to serve your purposes.  You can get almost any word out of my writing if you use the letters.  Partial quotes are as bad as misquotes.

As if on queu a few people thought I was calling them by name and have come screaming out of the corners with their literary sword at the ready.   Nobody handed anyone a sign that said "jaded old bitch" and forced them to run around waving it.  I call it like I see it and I'm not always going to make people happy.  If I lived through half of what I've heard about from the 80's I would be a bitter jaded bitch.  Count on it.  

All of which begs the question.  If you are so easily provoked, how do you handle people who aren't on your side?  Stress has to eat you alive if you let something minor like the mention of "jaded old bitches" set you off?

I mean, really?  I think my response would be: "And I'll get your little dog too my pretty..... muhahahaa" or "Yea, and if your lucky one day you'll be one too, and your luck will be better if you get out of my sight!"

Being old, bitter, bitchy, and jaded is sort of a battle scar that comes with surviving enough shit in life to be all of those things and be socially acceptable.  Grandmothers are frequently jaded old bitches.... and they have that right.  When you live 70 or 80 years, have diarrhea, cramps, hobble with a cane, are going bald, can't get laid, and see the doctor more than your family.... it tends to have that affect.  It's not so much an insult as it is a acknowledgement.....

So before you jump to conclusions..... at least look before you leap.  You should also know me by now that if I want to insult someone I'm not going to be around the bush.



I'm not much older than you and and a LTS going on 26 years. The comment offended me.


Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2010, 11:23:09 PM »
Look, there are certainly people on here who are:
-Bitter
-Jaded
-Old
-Bitches.

A few individuals belong in more than one category, and some are certainly "jaded old bitches."  It becomes a problem when I attach names to the labels.  In this particular instance I was not writing about any one person.  By now, you should know I'm capable of outlining someone if I want to.

I'm only 33 and not an LTS, but have lost my share of people to this thang.  I don't doubt that some heads around here think that I am a bitch, jaded, bitter (or all of the above); all of that is in the eye of the beholder.  Still, I found your comment (and the subsequent attempts to defend your viewpoint) not very tasteful. 

Why don't you just admit it dawg; you were not right in saying that crap.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #78 on: August 05, 2010, 12:05:54 AM »
Resistance and super-infection aren't necessarily the same thing. 

Resistance can occur with a single strain of HIV.

Super-infection simply involves different strains.

To clarify there are, in theory, different types of super-infection.

1. Cross-type  HIV1+HIV2:  This is a real danger as these are essentially two viruses.  However, HIV-2 is primarily a west coast, African issue.  HIV2 is thought to be much slower progression (based on what I understand).

2. Cross-group, HIV1M+HIV1N, problem is that M is the common one and everything else is an outlier. 

3. Cross-SubGroup. HIV1MB+HIV1MC.  This is the most likely issue you will face.  The various subtypes of HIV1M are distributed more or less geographically.... so if your sex involves people from other areas you may wind up with more than one subtype of HIV1M.  This is not a cut and dry thing as there are CRF's or Hybrid strains too.

The article referenced below goes on to claim that there are numerous superinfections, but makes no reference to studies or other documentation.

I sourced my data for this post from http://www.avert.org/hiv-types.htm  This appears to be an accurate source and is referenced with 26 footnotes for those inclined to do more reading.

As for superinfection:
Here are the articles of credible value that I could find using Google:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15995957 - 16 cases from 2002 to 2005  per US NIH.

I just couldn't find much that was relevant and not based on this single paper and credible.
I specifically discounted TheBody (in it's multiple flavors), wikipedia, and "forum" type sites as they are not credible scientific references.  They may contain facts and truths and opinions, but they are not hard scientific evidence.

So let's shoot the numbers.  2002 to 2005 is a good enough period for analysis of risk.

According to the US CDC, which I consider a reputable source,
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/factsheets/pdf/us_overview.pdf

there are approximately 1.1 Million people as of 2008 living with HIV.  This data is as of July 2010.
Regressing on the graph on page 2, it appears that 900,000 is a good number.

So let's skew the statistics to represent more risk and more conservatism, we will go with 800,000 which is the 1997 level.

The period in the study is 3 years, so out of 800,000 people there are 16 cases in 3 years.

The math, which is really small is that you have a .002% chance of being superinfected in a given year, assuming quite a few things like the superinfections occurred in that year and that the risk behavior is normal.

to put that in perspective that is a 1 in 50,000 chance.  In a given year you have a 1/750,000 chance of being hit by lightning..... and 1/6250 in your 80 year lifetime.
http://www.funny2.com/odds.htm
Odds of being possessed by satan are only 1 in 7,000
Dating a super model is a close second at 1:88,000
dating a millionaire - 1:215 (wow)
being murdered: 1:18,000 (better chance then superinfection.
killed in a transportation accident - 1:77
being a pro athlete : 1:22000 (twice as likely)


My point here is that the odds are pretty slim and still heavily influenced by actual risk exposure which translates simplyl into: How much sex are you having with how many different people?

The US Porn industry has a well documented sero-exclusion system that has permitted bareback sex with only the occassional infection due to outside intercourse.  My point here is that the HIV community has a relatively low rate of mixing between different geographies.  This carries more weight when you consider the socio-economic impact of HIV.  It's not like winning the lotto where you have tons of cash to jetset to your next piece of ass.  Thus, the economic status and geographic isolation act as a form of sero-exclusionary process to keep subtypes relatively isolated. 

Interestingly, Europe has seen an increase in subtype infection diversity.... I would guess this is due to the Eurozone increasing travel and exposure opportunities.

So ultimately, sex with 1 person isn't as risky as sex with 10 people which is still less than sex with 500 people per year.  And who you are having sex with matters.  Sex with 1 person who travels to Africa regularly is probably higher risk for subtype exposure diversity than the sex with 500 people in a year who don't travel at all.

The reality is that most of us have far fewer sex partners than we would like to fantasize about.

I'm not saying that super-infection can't happen... I'm just suggesting that observation indicates that it isn't happening as often as the hype would have you believe and that your real risk exposure behavior has alot to do with it.  Living on the Isle of Man and shagging 10 people a week who live there is different from being the "welcome hole" at a bath in NYC near the airport and playing international catcher each night of the week.

So, depending on your appetite for risk you may choose to wear a body condom, or not. 

I personally haven't found any convincing evidence to suggest that super infection represents a real and present danger to me as a gay man. 

What I have found is a history of sustained hedonism within the American Gay HIV community that is at total odds with the risk being propagated by ASO's.

To put it bluntly, Hep C is a bigger risk than re-infection.... and you have to work a little to catch Hep C in the course of ordinary anal intercourse.  Not to say you can't catch it.... just that it's hard to catch without blood to blood contact.  http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/C/cFAQ.htm#transmission (considered low risk per CDC)

Heck if you look at the treatment recommendations from the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/Populations/PDFs/RiskPopulationTable.pdf they don't even consider Hep C a risk unless you are an admitted IV drug user.  That tells you something as these are the guidelines most ASO's run under.



when i went to the doc i asked if she knew or could find out what strain i had and she said no is this true?

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #79 on: August 05, 2010, 12:12:09 AM »
I find it funny as hell if you say one wrong word or  say something the wrong way or word it wrong
people basically throw you in a gas chamber!.lol
Like get over it! It's okay! you will live!and its not the end of the world!.lol
not saying that i dont get mad at what some people say i just try to blow it off!
sometimes i can sometimes i cant! and i understand some people shouldnt be rude..

Offline newt

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2010, 02:37:34 AM »
Quote
when i went to the doc i asked if she knew or could find out what strain i had and she said no is this true?

HIV subtype testing is routine test and I would be surprised if any major clinic in the developed world did not do this. I suppose individual doctors' offices may not order the test (but they should).

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #81 on: August 05, 2010, 06:05:42 AM »
HIV subtype testing is routine test and I would be surprised if any major clinic in the developed world did not do this. I suppose individual doctors' offices may not order the test (but they should).

- matt


This hits to another point that hadn't been brought up.

While they do resistance testing as a routine part of HIV treatment, genotyping (what strain you have) is another test.

The reality is that HIV mutates constantly.  Not all the strains survive.

Part of the reason that you don't see many documented cases of super-infection are that it's difficult to test for what your primary strain is, let alone what other strains might be there.  The treatment is normally the same anyhow.

If you treat someone who has acquired a resistant strain, the treatment will suppress the strains that aren't resistant and their viral load will increase as the resistant strain multiplies.  At that point you will switch regimes.  The new regime will target the resistance and likely suppress the other strains as well.

Thus in most people you just simply wouldn't know if they were co-infected with multiple subtypes.  The treatment outcome is the same.

When it theoretically would be a problem is if you had strains with incompatible resistance profiles, but in that case you would just simply treat each one with a med.... so you might wind up with a 4 or 5 drug cocktail, which honestly doesn't seem that much worse then a 3 drug cocktail.  This would likely be the only "super-infection".

My opinion at this point is that everyone has mutliple strains due to mutation, but that it's very rare to acquire clinically significant varieties after initial infection.  It's also rare to acquire resistance through sex.  If it was possible I think we'd see alot more of it given the behavior that goes on in the real world.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #82 on: August 05, 2010, 06:29:15 AM »
I'm only 33 and not an LTS, but have lost my share of people to this thang.  I don't doubt that some heads around here think that I am a bitch, jaded, bitter (or all of the above); all of that is in the eye of the beholder.  Still, I found your comment (and the subsequent attempts to defend your viewpoint) not very tasteful. 


I agree with you that there were probably better word choices....... given the sensitivity to it and the inability for many to see the whole post for the one sentence.  I'm not honestly sure that replacing "JBB" with "Angry LTS" would have had the same impact.  I felt (and still do feel) it was necessary to cast some LTS as being jaded and angry and that they are entitled to be jaded, angry, etc.  It comes with the turf and it's a badge of honor, not a diss.  The more important point of the sentence was that certain people needed to realize that comments about "dying quickly" and "living 40 years" were deeply offensive to the same LTS because they had lived through what essentially was a HIV holocaust in the 80's while the US government did essentially nothing to stop the spread of HIV.

It is a particular type of communication style that serves a specific objective.  The format is: remand, shock, pause, explain.  It is extremely effective at getting someone's attention and has the "stun grenade" affect in writing. 

I felt it was necessary to use a very powerful comment in a non-direct way to point out that making comments wishing for the 80's as it relates to HIV was a sort of foul that rubbed alot of salt into wounds that will never heal.  Thus I did not say "X" is a JBB.  I used the label in a more general context.  The specific issue is that reading someone wish for an untreatable death is in opposition to our belief that nobody should want to die quickly.

Now, it may come that despite explanation, you still don't like what I wrote.  At which point we will have to simply agree to disagree as that is the literary algebra for open discourse when two parties disagree.

Heck you may think I'm a stubborn bitter jaded bitch.... lol.  And I am sometimes.  Lord knows I've been called nearly every insult at one point or another. 
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #83 on: August 05, 2010, 06:35:47 AM »
HIV subtype testing is routine test and I would be surprised if any major clinic in the developed world did not do this. I suppose individual doctors' offices may not order the test (but they should).

- matt


I don't feel like the place i am going is giving me all the information i need/want to know.
I ask for a copy of my blood work.she says i can't have a copy.
I feel like there just telling me half the story getting me in there then pushing me out the door!
When I go back this month if they try to put me on meds and can't give me a good enough reason to why I should go on meds and why the med they prescribe are the best I'm not taking them.
And i will of course post my numbers one here.lol
hundreds of minds are better then one doctor!(in a way.)

And also alot of people are telling me i need "to wait as long as i can" before being put on drugs.
Is this right should i wait as long as possible or should i start as soon as possible?
cause I'm going to be honest I'm not ready to start taking meds. (like just think about it make s me nervous lol)

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #84 on: August 05, 2010, 06:36:42 AM »
I find it funny as hell if you say one wrong word or  say something the wrong way or word it wrong
people basically throw you in a gas chamber!.lol
Like get over it! It's okay! you will live!and its not the end of the world!.lol
not saying that i dont get mad at what some people say i just try to blow it off!
sometimes i can sometimes i cant! and i understand some people shouldnt be rude..


It's just a reflection of perspective.  When you are 1/2" from the wall you see alot more dirt then when you are 6 feet from it.  

You'll come across it pretty often.  There are certain "taboo" subjects that are "no-no's" in the HIV world.

Among them:
- Suggesting that someone might have wanted to be poz.
- Any perceived negative remark about people who have had the disease for a while.
- Not promising to drink the kool-aid with regards to safe-sex.  (your ASO will go ballistic about this)
- Pointing out that many Ryan White Grantees are incredibly inefficient and wasteful.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #85 on: August 05, 2010, 06:41:40 AM »
It's just a reflection of perspective.  When you are 1/2" from the wall you see alot more dirt then when you are 6 feet from it.  

You'll come across it pretty often.  There are certain "taboo" subjects that are "no-no's" in the HIV world.

Among them:
- Suggesting that someone might have wanted to be poz.
- Any perceived negative remark about people who have had the disease for a while.
- Not promising to drink the kool-aid with regards to safe-sex.  (your ASO will go ballistic about this)
- Pointing out that many Ryan White Grantees are incredibly inefficient and wasteful.


like saying "I wish i got AIDS in the 80's so I would be dead right now!"
that was wrong.lol
i would never say that!
(even if i wanted to)

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #86 on: August 05, 2010, 06:47:45 AM »
I don't feel like the place i am going is giving me all the information i need/want to know.
I ask for a copy of my blood work.she says i can't have a copy.
I feel like there just telling me half the story getting me in there then pushing me out the door!
When I go back this month if they try to put me on meds and can't give me a good enough reason to why I should go on meds and why the med they prescribe are the best I'm not taking them.
And i will of course post my numbers one here.lol
hundreds of minds are better then one doctor!(in a way.)

And also alot of people are telling me i need "to wait as long as i can" before being put on drugs.
Is this right should i wait as long as possible or should i start as soon as possible?
cause I'm going to be honest I'm not ready to start taking meds. (like just think about it make s me nervous lol)

Okay...
1. You are LEGALLY entitled to a copy of anything and everything in your medical file in the US.  So if you want a copy of your labs, go back and ask for a copy.  They HAVE to give it to you.  

the conversation should go something like:
you: Hi, I'd like to get a copy of the labs in my file?
them: We don't do that
you: Well, I'd appreciate it if you did.  Can you please honor my request?
them: Well.....
you: Who would I need to talk to about getting this?
them: the director of clinical services, Jack B Jerky
you: When's the best time to reach him?
them: He's free right now? Would you like me to transfer your call?
you: Yes, I'd really appreciate that, thank you for all your help, have a great day.  (just trust me on buttering the operator/receptionist/clerk up.)
JBJ: Hi, May I help you?
you: Yes, this is Joe GonnaGetMyLabs, Wilma Won't said you were the person to talk to about getting a copy of my labs from my records?
JBJ: That's correct.
you: I'd really appreciate it if I could have a copy of my labs.  This would allow me to study them and look some of the information up that isn't practical to do in the 15 minutes when the doctor sees me.  
JBJ: I suppose we could accomodate that.
you: Great, is there any paperwork I need complete? Do you think I could have them in a week or two?


That's all there should be to it.  I wrote it out as a script for you so that you have a better idea of how to get what you want from them without attacking them which will get you nowhere.

Nice always works better than nasty, but reminding them gently that you are entitled to a copy of your report may help.  Keep in mind that the clerk at the counter is only allowed to follow policy and most people are jerks to him or her.  So it may take you much further if you are extra nice to them.  they have more power then you think and when they pass the call they can push for or against you.  Think of this:

clerk: Yes, Mr. jerky?  I have this punk on the line bugging me about his records.... he's insisting to talk to you... .
vs.
clerk: Yes, Mr. Jerky?  I have a client on the line who wants a copy of his labs.  He's a nice kid but our policy requires you to allow it, do you have a moment to talk to him?

Same thing being said, but the delivery sets the tone for the call and the first call isn't going to be very nice because Mr. Jerky will be on the defensive from the get go.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #87 on: August 05, 2010, 06:53:14 AM »

<ommitted>
that was wrong.lol
i would never say that!
(even if i wanted to)

Yes that is the comment that I felt deserved an appropriately strong response.  Invoking the desire to be in the holocaust with holocaust survivors tends to have a negative affect.

In this particular case I felt that you and WTF would both benefit from reading something a little stronger than "please be nice to the older guys and gals".  Both of you have at one time or another inadvertantly said something that caused a ruckus. 
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #88 on: August 05, 2010, 06:55:44 AM »
Yes that is the comment that I felt deserved an appropriately strong response.  Invoking the desire to be in the holocaust with holocaust survivors tends to have a negative affect.

In this particular case I felt that you and WTF would both benefit from reading something a little stronger than "please be nice to the older guys and gals".  Both of you have at one time or another inadvertantly said something that caused a ruckus. 

yes...yes i have.. :-\
i like to make the little thing go red! ;D
and im sorry if i feel the way i feel about something

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #89 on: August 05, 2010, 07:11:24 AM »
yes...yes i have.. :-\
i like to make the little thing go red! ;D
and im sorry if i feel the way i feel about something

Well, as you can see it doesn't take much to get some folks excited and bent.  I'm sure the "report to moderator" button is feeling worn out on this thread.

My point to you and WTF in particular was to keep in mind that some people lived through a type of hell that you and I are lucky enough not to revisit.  The wounds that come from this don't heal and so you should be a little sensitive to it.

To illlustrate what I'm talking about..... because at 21 you probably haven't lost any close friends.... If you are like every other 21 year old, you have a cell phone, and it's full of contacts.  

Write the names out on a list.
Now, cross out 95% of them.
Imagine that each name you just crossed out has died from a single disease that can't be treated, that has no cure, and extracts a horrible, slow, painful death and is spread primarilly through sex.
Imagine that this happens in the span of 5 to 8 years.... basically since you were in high school until now.
Imagine that your government is not doing much about this for the first 5 or 6 years, pretending it doesn't exist. (1980 to 1986)

This is exactly what happened in the late 80's and early 90s.  Up until 1993 people died constantly from HIV.  In 1993 Protease Inhibitors, aka PI's changed everything.  You would have been entirely too young to have been aware of what changed..... so I'm giving you an informal history lesson.

WTF is 5 years older then you, more or less, so he too probably has no earthly idea what went on.  He would have been 6 in 1990 and you would have been 1.

I'm aware of it because I came of age in the early 90's.... and people who are a little older then me tend to be "missing"..... there are a couple of entire generations that aren't there because of HIV.  I still didn't experience it.  I just remember going to the bars and picking up a gay bar rag (small magazine) and it being filled with obituaries in the back.  All of the sudden that tapered off and stopped and that was a good thing.  Two things caused this.... Protease Inhibitors and the 3 drug cocktail.

Before those two things, HIV was a "get your shit together and get ready to die" disease and it had a "healthy" period of 2 years or so for most people who caught it.  After the first 2 years from diagnosis they would live another 8 years or so.... on average 10 years in all before falling victim to something like pneumonia because they had no immune system left.  A small handful of people survived because they had some immunity, a very mild disease, or were just plain damn lucky.  A few of the survivors were the human guinea pigs that tested the initial drugs some of which were simply rat poison with a happy face on it.  The early meds weren't terribly effective and were prescribed at very high doses so the side effects were abysmal.  However, miserable life beats early death, so this was considered progress.  What we have now is a luxury and it's easy to forget that.

So,  the more interesting observation here, is that WTF and Bryan represent some of the new HIVers who are too young to have been aware of the first 2 decades of HIV.  Their span of reality likely only involves the last 5 maybe 10 years when HIV has been very treatable.  And just like that I feel old.  Old is when you realize you lived through things that others weren't alive during or were too young to remember.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 08:24:04 AM by hotpuppy »
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline max123

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  • Carpe Diem
Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #90 on: August 05, 2010, 08:18:26 AM »


when i went to the doc i asked if she knew or could find out what strain i had and she said no is this true?
bryan,

you said your doc discussed putting you on meds...have you had a resistance test done or is he/she just advising meds without that test being done (like just start meds & see what happens)? it's my understanding that many labs run a genotype concurrently, which would specify the hiv subtype. your doc won't give you copies of your records? that is illegal. what kind of doc are you seeing? is it a health clinic or private doc?
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #91 on: August 05, 2010, 01:06:19 PM »
bryan,

you said your doc discussed putting you on meds...have you had a resistance test done or is he/she just advising meds without that test being done (like just start meds & see what happens)? it's my understanding that many labs run a genotype concurrently, which would specify the hiv subtype. your doc won't give you copies of your records? that is illegal. what kind of doc are you seeing? is it a health clinic or private doc?

it's a comprehensive care center in Nashville, they are doing a resistance test with the last blood sample taken on july 19th and she just said that "with your cd4 count where it is we suggest that you start meds but its left up to the patient"
so she really didn't say that i had to or should take meds just the it is suggested.
and yes when i asked for copies of my labs she looked like i asked to see her tits or some shit and then she said no..lol
so on aug. 30th i will have a copy of my records.lol

Offline max123

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  • Posts: 377
  • Carpe Diem
Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #92 on: August 05, 2010, 02:28:13 PM »
it's a comprehensive care center in Nashville, they are doing a resistance test with the last blood sample taken on july 19th and she just said that "with your cd4 count where it is we suggest that you start meds but its left up to the patient"
so she really didn't say that i had to or should take meds just the it is suggested.
and yes when i asked for copies of my labs she looked like i asked to see her tits or some shit and then she said no..lol
so on aug. 30th i will have a copy of my records.lol

http://ihcrp.georgetown.edu/privacy/stateguides/tn/tn.pdf

here you go dude...tennessee medical records access rules took all of a 60 sec google search. maybe start utilizing some of your time taking care of what you need to instead of worrying about random shit like prep/pep. getting through this is all about prioritization. right now, you should try to focus on educating yourself on your rights, understanding your labs, about hiv in general & how to stay healthy. the rest will come in time...if you play your cards right, now.
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline Jeff G

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  • Member
  • Posts: 11,812
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #93 on: August 05, 2010, 02:45:33 PM »
it's a comprehensive care center in Nashville, they are doing a resistance test with the last blood sample taken on july 19th and she just said that "with your cd4 count where it is we suggest that you start meds but its left up to the patient"
so she really didn't say that i had to or should take meds just the it is suggested.
and yes when i asked for copies of my labs she looked like i asked to see her tits or some shit and then she said no..lol
so on aug. 30th i will have a copy of my records.lol

You may not have been given your lab results if you receive medicaid . I don't know about your state but in Alabama medicaid recipients are not allowed to get copy's of medical records . You can only sign a release for them to be sent/faxed to your other health care providers .

It however doesn't stop you from asking what your numbers are and writing it down for your own records .   

Offline Joe K

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  • 31 Years Poz
Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #94 on: August 05, 2010, 04:11:23 PM »
My point to you and WTF in particular was to keep in mind that some people lived through a type of hell that you and I are lucky enough not to revisit.  The wounds that come from this don't heal and so you should be a little sensitive to it.

So,  the more interesting observation here, is that WTF and Bryan represent some of the new HIVers who are too young to have been aware of the first 2 decades of HIV.  Their span of reality likely only involves the last 5 maybe 10 years when HIV has been very treatable.  And just like that I feel old.  Old is when you realize you lived through things that others weren't alive during or were too young to remember.
Thanks for your insight, because now I have a better understanding of what these guys are feeling.

Bryan and WTF, I believe I have been unfair in my criticism of you both and that a little more empathy, on all of our parts is in order. I really wish I had an easy answer for you, but I don't. None of us do. All I know is, at some point, you must adapt to your status, because without that acceptance, you will never begin the healing process. The anger and frustration you feel is very real and a normal reaction to testing poz, but at some point, the pity party must end.

How you became poz, does not matter, it is the fact that you accept that you are poz, that is the goal here. Until you accept your infection and make it your own, you will be too consumed in lamenting a past that can never return. You cannot allow yourself to become rooted in the past, because then you lose all of your tomorrows. My hope for you guys, is that you can use these forums and whatever else to start on that road to acceptance of your infection.

Please remember that you are the same person today, only poz, that you were before your infection. Understand that you are not going to die today, tomorrow, or the day after and that life is for the living. Believe that whatever choices you make, regarding treatment or whatever, will work for you and you will experience minimal side effects, if any at all. Learn to trust your instincts, to seek out competing opinions and to always make an informed decision. Treat your doctor as your partner in determining any course of treatment.

It is also my hope, that someday, you will be able to forgive yourself, for whatever role you may have played in becoming poz. This is not to place blame, rather to forgive you, for whatever you believe you need to be forgiven. It is realizing that demonizing yourself, does nothing to heal you and that healing is what you need most. It involves seeing forgiveness as an act that only you can do for yourself and that you will never be able to do it, until you learn to truly love yourself.

I'll start over and welcome you to the forums and if you ever need someone to just listen... well you know where to find me. Trust me on this guys, work at accepting your infection and stop beating yourself up, over something, that you no longer have any control over.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:13:36 PM by killfoile »

Offline bryan21

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Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #95 on: August 05, 2010, 04:52:04 PM »
You may not have been given your lab results if you receive medicaid . I don't know about your state but in Alabama medicaid recipients are not allowed to get copy's of medical records . You can only sign a release for them to be sent/faxed to your other health care providers .

It however doesn't stop you from asking what your numbers are and writing it down for your own records .   

okay yes thats what i did..i signed release forms and i wrote the numbers down.
do you know why i can t get copies of my records seems kinda unfair..lol

Offline Jeff G

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  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #96 on: August 05, 2010, 05:02:43 PM »
okay yes that's what i did..i signed release forms and i wrote the numbers down.
do you know why i can t get copies of my records seems kinda unfair..lol


Medical records can be dangerous for guys your age and you could get a paper cut , ya don't wanna boo boo do ya ? . J/K .

I really don't know the reason why , its just one of the rules medicaid imposes .   

Offline bryan21

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  • Posts: 120
Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2010, 05:04:06 PM »
http://ihcrp.georgetown.edu/privacy/stateguides/tn/tn.pdf

here you go dude...tennessee medical records access rules took all of a 60 sec google search. maybe start utilizing some of your time taking care of what you need to instead of worrying about random shit like prep/pep. getting through this is all about prioritization. right now, you should try to focus on educating yourself on your rights, understanding your labs, about hiv in general & how to stay healthy. the rest will come in time...if you play your cards right, now.

That didn't tell me anything i didn't already know..
and the doctor asked me to explain HIV to her to see how much i know..i went on a like a 10 min. spell   about HIV and she was surprised i knew so much and said that was about it..lol and she didnt tell me anything i didn't already know! (that kinda disappointed me)
i mean i looked up information obsessively for 2 str8 mths!.lol
i know more now then i have ever known about HIV and i hope as time goes on i will learn more!
other then that im country i have always eaten healthy and now i do it hard core i have stopped drugs..i.e. weed/cigarettes/pills..etc.. because those things are unhealthy. i will still drink when i go out.
but lets face it that never happens lol
i dont really understand my labs all i know are the cd4 and viral load numbers but thats all i need to know right?

Offline bryan21

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  • Posts: 120
Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #98 on: August 05, 2010, 05:07:10 PM »

Medical records can be dangerous for guys your age and you could get a paper cut , ya don't wanna boo boo do ya ? . J/K .

I really don't know the reason why , its just one of the rules medicaid imposes .   

oh hahaha!
the other day my nose started to bleed and i was like i NEED THE BLEACH!!!!.lol
(but it did upset me a little bit) :-\
but oh well!
 ;D
stay happy there are to many mean people out there! lol

Offline bryan21

  • Member
  • Posts: 120
Re: Having unprotected gay sex........
« Reply #99 on: August 05, 2010, 05:23:50 PM »
Thanks for your insight, because now I have a better understanding of what these guys are feeling.

Bryan and WTF, I believe I have been unfair in my criticism of you both and that a little more empathy, on all of our parts is in order. I really wish I had an easy answer for you, but I don't. None of us do. All I know is, at some point, you must adapt to your status, because without that acceptance, you will never begin the healing process. The anger and frustration you feel is very real and a normal reaction to testing poz, but at some point, the pity party must end.

How you became poz, does not matter, it is the fact that you accept that you are poz, that is the goal here. Until you accept your infection and make it your own, you will be too consumed in lamenting a past that can never return. You cannot allow yourself to become rooted in the past, because then you lose all of your tomorrows. My hope for you guys, is that you can use these forums and whatever else to start on that road to acceptance of your infection.

Please remember that you are the same person today, only poz, that you were before your infection. Understand that you are not going to die today, tomorrow, or the day after and that life is for the living. Believe that whatever choices you make, regarding treatment or whatever, will work for you and you will experience minimal side effects, if any at all. Learn to trust your instincts, to seek out competing opinions and to always make an informed decision. Treat your doctor as your partner in determining any course of treatment.

It is also my hope, that someday, you will be able to forgive yourself, for whatever role you may have played in becoming poz. This is not to place blame, rather to forgive you, for whatever you believe you need to be forgiven. It is realizing that demonizing yourself, does nothing to heal you and that healing is what you need most. It involves seeing forgiveness as an act that only you can do for yourself and that you will never be able to do it, until you learn to truly love yourself.

I'll start over and welcome you to the forums and if you ever need someone to just listen... well you know where to find me. Trust me on this guys, work at accepting your infection and stop beating yourself up, over something, that you no longer have any control over.



you know i think if i were in your shoes i would have felt the same way!
and said the same things...but what WTF said and what i said are two diff things i feel
when i read some of the things he wrote( i didnt read it all) i was like OMG.. :o did he just say that
and i was kinda venting a little bit in this topic (next time i will breath before i post something)
but my next post will be on HIV/AIDS activism!...(look for it)
i want to get very very active in this...im doing the nashville aids walk this year (we have the largest team so far!! go team "warriors for life!!)lol
im not going to hide the fact that i am positive!(though i do pick and choose who i tell! there is one person that is going around telling people i have it! and some of the people he told are positive! lol people are stupid.it makes me mad a little that he is telling people i feel its not his place to tell people i have HIV it is mine!) but like i said i dont care who knows the people that i want in my life wont care and the ones that do care are the ones that i dont need in my life!!

 


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