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Poll

Is it more harmful to highlight or downplay the side effects of HIV treatment and its failures?

It is more harmful to highlight the side effects and downplay the effectiveness of HIV treatment
13 (59.1%)
It is more harmful to downplay the side effects and highlight the desired effects of the treatments
9 (40.9%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Voting closed: August 05, 2010, 03:43:54 PM

Author Topic: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!  (Read 13800 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2010, 03:59:57 PM »
Of course there should be a hierarchy of challenges of living with HIV,
and resources spent to attack the most pressing.

But sadly that is not how global society works. That said, I think this class critique is stuck awkwardly onto this argument.  Surely everyone who suffers lipo frets about it, rich and poor.  Pozzie elites aren't all bad. Serving the needs of the elites also drives developments and improvements that potentially all people living with HIV could take advantage of, if the resources are there.  I don't think its just elites getting filler, for example. In a sort of creepy way, couldn't we say the great success of very expensive HAART of the last 5-10 years, proven in the countries that could afford to pay for it, has been a good bargaining chip for getting HAART rolled out to ever more numbers of people around the world whose lands may not be able to afford it? It proved the point that the science and medicine is there, its just a matter of resources, and then you can jump immediately to human rights to health and access, and the funds start appearing from governments, foundations, etc.


Sorry--I'm just never going to buy this 'trickle down' theory as being of benefit to people living with, or at risk for HIV.  When ART came out, many advocates immediately worked to reduce the costs to industrial nations and worked to provide supports for free medications in Africa and Asia.

Offline mecch

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2010, 04:27:16 PM »
Yes I agree.  Also yes be suspicious of trickle down.  But pharma developed HAART to sell it and it was the elites, in a global perspective, who would have that kind of money.

I guess I don't imagine there are all that many HIV+ people living in the lap of luxury on the 5th Avenues of the world, in relation to the total number of HIV+ people.

And not all "elites" are self-centered superficial types like you seemed to be painting.  Some founders of GMHC, for example, were certainly "elites".
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2010, 06:26:56 PM »
I'm getting facial fillers in three weeks, and I don't live on anything approximating Fifth Avenue.  In fact, I found that post somewhat offensive, though it was hardly the only post in this thread that I've been uncomfortable with.  I'm getting mine through the patient assistance program by the company that makes Sculptra, as can anyone in the US that qualifies for it financially.

There's also been substantial hogwash in this thread as regards Michael Petrelis posting a picture of his sunken face, which I viewed as an act of personal empowerment.  Some of you here really need to step outside of your own self-centered comfort zones.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2010, 06:53:57 PM »
I'm getting facial fillers in three weeks, and I don't live on anything approximating Fifth Avenue.  In fact, I found that post somewhat offensive, though it was hardly the only post in this thread that I've been uncomfortable with.  I'm getting mine through the patient assistance program by the company that makes Sculptra, as can anyone in the US that qualifies for it financially.

There's also been substantial hogwash in this thread as regards Michael Petrelis posting a picture of his sunken face, which I viewed as an act of personal empowerment.  Some of you here really need to step outside of your own self-centered comfort zones.

there is nothing "empowering" about denigrating ones appearence...with the natural side effects of lipoatrophy...as "poz face".  There is a difference between owning something and making it a focal point.
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2010, 07:10:18 PM »
there is nothing "empowering" about denigrating ones appearence...with the natural side effects of lipoatrophy...as "poz face".  There is a difference between owning something and making it a focal point.

It's amazing how someone that's been diagnosed for two months would know what someone with lipo considers empowering or not.  Would you like to tell me how to defecate as well?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline mecch

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2010, 07:24:29 PM »
 Bravo, Philly! 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2010, 07:26:45 PM »
the natural side effects of lipoatrophy...as "poz face". 

There's also nothing "natural" about the side effects of lipo, so there goes another extremely offensive comment by the increasingly irrelevant wtfimpoz.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2010, 07:31:07 PM »
There's also nothing "natural" about the side effects of lipo, so there goes another extremely offensive comment by the increasingly irrelevant wtfimpoz.

I'm sure I'll get lampooned for this, but as people get older they do tend to lose some of the fat in their face naturally.  It might be what he's referring to.  Let me be clear in that I'm in no way shape or form defending him.

Offline mecch

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2010, 07:33:04 PM »
He's a doomsdayer so maybe he meant "inevitable" and said "natural" by mistake
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2010, 07:34:07 PM »
I'm sure I'll get lampooned for this, but as people get older they do tend to lose some of the fat in their face naturally.  It might be what he's referring to.  Let me be clear in that I'm in no way shape or form defending him.

I'm really sure that natural aging processes are responsible for my having grade 3 lipoatrophy in my face, buttocks, arms, legs and feet by the age of 33.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2010, 07:39:14 PM »
I'm really sure that natural aging processes are responsible for my having grade 3 lipoatrophy in my face, buttocks, arms, legs and feet by the age of 33.

I wasn't talking about you, dearest.  I know a handful of guys with very serious and early onset lipoatrophy issues that are completely related to the early HIV meds.  However, when you start getting into your 50s and 60s this stuff happens naturally as well and that's more what I think wtf meant.  You know just trying to pick a fight in order to engage me in make-up sex is only cute the first couple of times.

Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2010, 10:53:31 PM »
Philly: rather than declaring your offense at whats written, why don't you try to educate us as to what you find so offensive and why "Poz Face" is empowering?  It'd certainly be more effective than declaring others to be "self centered".
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline Dachshund

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2010, 11:14:02 PM »
Miss P it's not worth the effort. It's why we have to have a LTS forum.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2010, 11:26:55 PM »
Sad that stuff like this prevents many LTS'rs from contributing to this forum, where some info could do some good.


"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Joe K

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2010, 11:39:00 PM »
there is nothing "empowering" about denigrating ones appearence...with the natural side effects of lipoatrophy...as "poz face".  There is a difference between owning something and making it a focal point.

Why don't you do us all a favor and STFU, because your comments are beyond offensive. You have no clue what it is like to take medication that changes you physically, right before your very eyes. There are no natural side effects to the medications, especially those from before 1996. I had PN and numbness, from D4T, that got so bad I walked with a cane for 2 years. I have no body fat, other than around my stomach and I cannot even sleep on my side, because my knees rub bone against bone. I can't sit on any hard surface, because I have no fat on my ass.

My fucking feet and legs swell, due to the many maladies I got as direct and indirect results of the meds and various diseases. So what the hell is natural about any of this?

What you are missing is that these changes have left their mark and for many, it is called "poz face", because everyone knows what it means and for me, it also a badge of honor. I was lucky, I survived, but not without paying a very heavy price. For you to suggest that there is anything natural about what we suffer.... you need to just back off, before you really piss someone off.

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2010, 12:21:13 AM »
Why is Poz Face empowering?  I don't know, maybe claiming something that could be seen as a disfigurement and saying "here I am, take me as I am"?  Maybe knowing that so many have died and those with lipo are still here?  Maybe just saying "fuck it, I think I am beautiful?  Who knows why people find things empowering but who are we to judge that.  Anyone who takes a negative and turns it into something positive is empowering to me. 

Please also understand that some of the things in your posts could be viewed as offensive to many LTS on this board and they are handling you with kid gloves. Our LTS members are an amazing group of people who have dealt with this disease for decades and have much wisdom to share - don't make them feel this forum isn't a safe place for them.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2010, 12:24:26 AM »
Trust me, I don't have kid gloves on. I just am not quite ready to quit this site, and therefore I rarely post.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2010, 12:26:24 AM »
there is nothing "empowering" about denigrating ones appearence...with the natural side effects of lipoatrophy...as "poz face".  There is a difference between owning something and making it a focal point.

Hmmmpfff... If there was a nomination for the most moronic and offensive post of the week this would be the winner without any question.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2010, 07:49:54 AM »
Yes I agree.  Also yes be suspicious of trickle down.  But pharma developed HAART to sell it and it was the elites, in a global perspective, who would have that kind of money.

I guess I don't imagine there are all that many HIV+ people living in the lap of luxury on the 5th Avenues of the world, in relation to the total number of HIV+ people.

And not all "elites" are self-centered superficial types like you seemed to be painting.  Some founders of GMHC, for example, were certainly "elites".

Lets get this right--PhARMA developed PI's VIA the NIH--which is publically funded, then rolled them out at exorbitant prices claiming all along that it was the cost of R&D that inflated the prices.

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2010, 07:59:38 AM »
I'm getting facial fillers in three weeks, and I don't live on anything approximating Fifth Avenue.  In fact, I found that post somewhat offensive, though it was hardly the only post in this thread that I've been uncomfortable with.  I'm getting mine through the patient assistance program by the company that makes Sculptra, as can anyone in the US that qualifies for it financially.

There's also been substantial hogwash in this thread as regards Michael Petrelis posting a picture of his sunken face, which I viewed as an act of personal empowerment.  Some of you here really need to step outside of your own self-centered comfort zones.

Sometimes we take offense to things.  We seem to live through it however. Perhaps your suggestion of stepping outside of one's self-centerd comfort zone would prove helpful to you in this regard.  Sure, I have "Poz face" too.  I'm more concerned that we have issues such as Norvir boosting thier price 400% once it stopped being a main line PI and began to be used as a boost to other PIs.  Or that ADAPs all over are going to waiting lists and shrunken formularies here in the US, while many HIV positive people in Africa still can't get adequate access to ART.

I think an act of personal empowerment--to return to the OPs orignial points, is to give correct and clear information about how one reduces their cjances of being infected with HIV, and objectively describes one's life and health issues post HIV infection.  Personlly, I must just seem to reject 'filler' in many forms.

Offline mecch

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2010, 08:18:25 AM »
OK Marco, but that's one instance in a complicated history of HIV and HAART.

You trashed the HIV "elite" as somehow being responsible for skewed priorities, or for navel gazing and self-centered superficial concerns about their poz faces at the polo grounds.

Bill Clinton just did the same in Vienna - saying too much money spent on administration for the VIP's, at conferences such as Vienna itself.

I worked many years in fund-raising and its fair to say this is a good criticism - all non-profits have a responsibility to donors to use the money for the end goals and not high living.  "Elites" are aware of such issues and not all cynically ignore them.

As for Pharma, these days the social responsiblity judgments are pretty dire, with a few bright spots.

http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/aids-activists-grade-pharma/2009-09-14
AIDS activists grade pharma
September 14, 2009 — 4:08pm ET | By Calisha Myers
Nine companies were evaluated over the span of a year on their drug development portfolios and plans, the accessibility of their commercialized medicines, drug pricing, community relations and marketing practices. Those companies included Abbott Laboratories (grade: F), Roche (grade: D), Boehringer Ingelheim (grade: D+), Bristol-Myers Squibb (grade: C-), GlaxoSmithKline (grade: C-), Gilead Sciences (grade: C+) and Pfizer (grade: C+). And at the head of the class? Merck and Tibotec Therapeutics (grade: B): both received praises for lowering the prices of their drugs.

The bad grades would indicate Pharma still develops drugs mostly for profit, which we all know.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2010, 08:20:55 AM »
I think an act of personal empowerment--to return to the OPs orignial points, is to give correct and clear information about how one reduces their cjances of being infected with HIV, and objectively describes one's life and health issues post HIV infection. 

Yes don't we all agree on this?
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2010, 08:29:28 AM »

The bad grades would indicate Pharma still develops drugs mostly for profit, which we all know.

Exactly.  So let us not attempt to rewrite history or add undue spin in a manner which suggests that in the early days of ART, those that could afford new meds in combo therapy were somehow valiantly 'testing' these meds for the less fortunate.  We were ALL scrambling for next thing that would keep us alive just a wee bit longer.  So much so that buffalo humps, PN, kidney stones and swollen abdomens may have been considered by some as an acceptable trade off.


Offline mecch

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2010, 09:50:57 AM »
Exactly.  So let us not attempt to rewrite history or add undue spin in a manner which suggests that in the early days of ART, those that could afford new meds in combo therapy were somehow valiantly 'testing' these meds for the less fortunate.  We were ALL scrambling for next thing that would keep us alive just a wee bit longer.  So much so that buffalo humps, PN, kidney stones and swollen abdomens may have been considered by some as an acceptable trade off.

I was there too buddy and saw what friends and lovers went through. If you think I was implying " that in the early days of ART, those that could afford new meds in combo therapy were somehow valiantly 'testing' these meds for the less fortunate" its a misunderstanding. 
Maybe it was my verb choice (HAART was developed...) 

You're the won spinning the "HIV+ elites" as somehow responsible for the wretched prognosis of the poor. And I was calling that out as unnecesary spin in this thread.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2010, 10:16:42 AM »
Sometimes we take offense to things.  We seem to live through it however. Perhaps your suggestion of stepping outside of one's self-centerd comfort zone would prove helpful to you in this regard.  Sure, I have "Poz face" too.  I'm more concerned that we have issues such as Norvir boosting thier price 400% once it stopped being a main line PI and began to be used as a boost to other PIs.  Or that ADAPs all over are going to waiting lists and shrunken formularies here in the US, while many HIV positive people in Africa still can't get adequate access to ART.


Thanks for the non sequitur, Marco.  There's nothing in my commentary or the subject of facial fillers that would indicate that I have a desire for waiting lists or exorbitant pharmaceutical prices.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2010, 10:26:18 AM »
Thanks for the non sequitur, Marco.  There's nothing in my commentary or the subject of facial fillers that would indicate that I have a desire for waiting lists or exorbitant pharmaceutical prices.
Not really a non sequitur at all.  I never wrote that you had a desire for these things.  I stated that I was more concerned about these things than I am how my Poz face looks to others.  Perhaps along with your suggested step outside of one's self centered comfort zone, careful and objective reading of posts could be attempted as well?

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2010, 10:35:46 AM »
I was there too buddy and saw what friends and lovers went through. If you think I was implying " that in the early days of ART, those that could afford new meds in combo therapy were somehow valiantly 'testing' these meds for the less fortunate" its a misunderstanding. 
Maybe it was my verb choice (HAART was developed...) 

You're the won spinning the "HIV+ elites" as somehow responsible for the wretched prognosis of the poor. And I was calling that out as unnecesary spin in this thread.



I lived it.  From handfuls of AZT to choking on PN producing DDI.  I didn't say our Pozzie Princes and Princesses were responsible--but I did say they did a large bit of focusing on their own needs--and these were the ones lifted up by the media as our poster children.  It happens even today.  The current issue of POZ has Ms. Hoffman describing her valiant foregoing of a DC cab ride (to hob-knob with the really important people) and walking in her expensive stilettos as a way to demonstrate her oil-use consciousness.  PUUUUULLLEASE!

I live in a place where people still have to use used syringes because we don't have 100% acces to sterile ones.  Fuck stilettos, we're talking bare feet taht are injected into because arm veins are used up.  Where I live people in our ID clinics are treated for OIs because they keep having treatment interruptions due to changing benefit access.

I'm not being classist here--I'm saying that to those who much has been given--much is expected.  I'd be more appeased if I saw and heard more from our media-thrust pozzies with regard to 100% access to ART and increased availability of effective, evidence and science-based prevention strategies and tools.

So if this offends our cosmopolitan set, I really don't care.  I want clean syringes, access to meds and good prevention tools. 

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2010, 11:32:00 AM »



   I'm surprised it took having HIV for a member to take notice of the differences between the rich and the poor.  So what Reagan rides a high horse, if you're jealous get on the saddle with her.  It's ironic you find room to tell another member to read posts more objectively, when perhaps it should be applied to your overall thinking.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2010, 11:38:33 AM »


   I'm surprised it took having HIV for a member to take notice of the differences between the rich and the poor.  So what Reagan rides a high horse, if you're jealous get on the saddle with her.  It's ironic you find room to tell another member to read posts more objectively, when perhaps it should be applied to your overall thinking.
Not jealousy at all--just wish I'd hear and see more about some of the concerns I raised in my previous post.  Just because one is called to account, doesn't mean there is jealousy involved.  But I do seem to remember the last time I had something similar to say about Ms. Hoffman, your response was much like this recent one.  Perhaps I don't mind asking a bit more from those in the Poz media, and maybe you just personally like Ms. Hoffman?

Offline Dachshund

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2010, 11:41:05 AM »
Not really a non sequitur at all.  I never wrote that you had a desire for these things.  I stated that I was more concerned about these things than I am how my Poz face looks to others.  Perhaps along with your suggested step outside of one's self centered comfort zone, careful and objective reading of posts could be attempted as well?

Admit it Miss P, you're an elitist. Living the high life on disability.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2010, 11:46:39 AM »
Admit it Miss P, you're an elitist. Living the high life on disability.

I know, it's horribly shameful.  At least when I was on Fuzeon for two years but using a Biojector in clinical trial, I strapped on my Manolo Blahnik stillettos and took my excess syringes over to Camden for folks to use.  I was so embarrassed to be slumming that I wore a bag over my head though.  Hope nobody saw me in the horsey set.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2010, 11:47:10 AM »
Not jealousy at all--just wish I'd hear and see more about some of the concerns I raised in my previous post.  Just because one is called to account, doesn't mean there is jealousy involved.  But I do seem to remember the last time I had something similar to say about Ms. Hoffman, your response was much like this recent one.  Perhaps I don't mind asking a bit more from those in the Poz media, and maybe you just personally like Ms. Hoffman?

Friend, I only think of her when you bring her up.  Perhaps you have a hard-on for the ice princess.  I'll have to go back and review your posts more "objectively" though to be sure.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Online AlanBama

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2010, 12:32:55 PM »
***SIGH***

It's stuff like this that keeps me in LTS forum.  I've accepted it though, so I'm fine with it.   Had a discussion with a nurse who gave me my T shot yesterday about new patients at our clinic not showing up for their visits; they were scheduled to have 4 new patients yesterday, and only 2 showed.  This is such a foreign concept to me (ignoring HIV) that I can't even wrap my mind around it, and therefore won't try.

Sorry if this seems like an unsympathetic post, or a bit harsh; I certainly am not intending to paint ALL newly diagnosed folks with the same broad brush.   Just pointing out something, that's all.

Hugs, Alan
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2010, 12:42:32 PM »
***SIGH***

It's stuff like this that keeps me in LTS forum.  I've accepted it though, so I'm fine with it.   Had a discussion with a nurse who gave me my T shot yesterday about new patients at our clinic not showing up for their visits; they were scheduled to have 4 new patients yesterday, and only 2 showed.  This is such a foreign concept to me (ignoring HIV) that I can't even wrap my mind around it, and therefore won't try.

Sorry if this seems like an unsympathetic post, or a bit harsh; I certainly am not intending to paint ALL newly diagnosed folks with the same broad brush.   Just pointing out something, that's all.

Hugs, Alan

Alan,

I'm with ya.  A few simple statements about expecting PWA's who have access to the media to be mindful of those who have no or limited access and I'm told I have a "hard on" or I'm jealous.  The OP brought out the rantings of one such PWA in citing Andrew Sullivan--guess its ok to say something critical about him here--just not others?

The original 'poll' points to an erroneous assumption that there are only 2 ways to appraoch the original question:  Massage the facts for the neggies, or massage the facts for the pozzies.  Its a flawed assumption.  So is getting a history lesson about HIV treament from someone who tested positive in this decade.  Back to the LTS for me.

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #84 on: July 29, 2010, 01:00:41 PM »
I know, it's horribly shameful.  At least when I was on Fuzeon for two years but using a Biojector in clinical trial, I strapped on my Manolo Blahnik stillettos and took my excess syringes over to Camden for folks to use.  I was so embarrassed to be slumming that I wore a bag over my head though.  Hope nobody saw me in the horsey set.

Not always about you.

When I posted about the 5th Ave. pozzie divas freaking about the fact that they actually LOOKED like they had HIV and facial filler was the premier topic of the day--while med access sucks around the world--I wasn't talking about you.  I don't even know you, and am very sure you don't know me.  So should we begin cannonization for your kindness to pass along your unused sharps, while of course wearing the best of shoes?

Again,
Not always about you.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2010, 01:43:05 PM »
Alan,

I'm with ya.  A few simple statements about expecting PWA's who have access to the media to be mindful of those who have no or limited access and I'm told I have a "hard on" or I'm jealous.  The OP brought out the rantings of one such PWA in citing Andrew Sullivan--guess its ok to say something critical about him here--just not others?

The original 'poll' points to an erroneous assumption that there are only 2 ways to appraoch the original question:  Massage the facts for the neggies, or massage the facts for the pozzies.  Its a flawed assumption.  So is getting a history lesson about HIV treament from someone who tested positive in this decade.  Back to the LTS for me.

Oh spare me your heart wrenching story Marco.   It's those generalizations that you partake in that  causes your logic to be flawed.  When they are repeated it becomes aggravating.

If people want to take exception to what Andrew Sullivan is preaching so be it.   I just don't take to my life playing a victim, life is way too short for this and as a result I do very little finger pointing.  Speaking of which, I am disappointed right now...  so a few of the newly diagnosed don't get it, what is new?  I think I would be a clear indicator of how it takes a noob time to experience living with HIV before a change in thinking sets in.  So we just throw our collective hands in the air and say, "back to LTS for me"?   But, at the same time judge the work Reagan is doing without even knowing...  Are you her personal secretary Marco?

To the other LTS'ers my argument is not with you, OP said something rather offensive and all I can do is say I wish he hadn't said it.  Marco, I don't have a grudge against you... I'm not mad at you.. and if I am offending you right now I am sorry, it's not my intention, but I am adamantly in disagreement with you.  Like the issue you had on the forums earlier this year where you take what one person says, or in Reagan's case- actions taken visible to you, and cry extreme foul.  I just don't like your logic and when you voice it I say something, just like I did months ago when you implied this wasn't a safe place for us straights.

And here you go with the "back to LTS for me" when your issue is something totally different than what they are referring to..  Damn dude, in my book that's so whack.



 





I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2010, 02:00:12 PM »
Oh spare me your heart wrenching story Marco.   It's those generalizations that you partake in that  causes your logic to be flawed.  When they are repeated it becomes aggravating.

If people want to take exception to what Andrew Sullivan is preaching so be it.   I just don't take to my life playing a victim, life is way too short for this and as a result I do very little finger pointing.  Speaking of which, I am disappointed right now...  so a few of the newly diagnosed don't get it, what is new?  I think I would be a clear indicator of how it takes a noob time to experience living with HIV before a change in thinking sets in.  So we just throw our collective hands in the air and say, "back to LTS for me"?   But, at the same time judge the work Reagan is doing without even knowing...  Are you her personal secretary Marco?

To the other LTS'ers my argument is not with you, OP said something rather offensive and all I can do is say I wish he hadn't said it.  Marco, I don't have a grudge against you... I'm not mad at you.. and if I am offending you right now I am sorry, it's not my intention, but I am adamantly in disagreement with you.  Like the issue you had on the forums earlier this year where you take what one person says, or in Reagan's case- actions taken visible to you, and cry extreme foul.  I just don't like your logic and when you voice it I say something, just like I did months ago when you implied this wasn't a safe place for us straights.

And here you go with the "back to LTS for me" when your issue is something totally different than what they are referring to..  Damn dude, in my book that's so whack.
 

So  the newly diagnosed don't get it?  Like those of us infected in the 80's and early 90's somehow 'got it'?  There is no immaculate infection.  Information, fear messages etc, did nothing to keep us from getting HIV, why would one think it would work now.  Its MUCH deeper than that.  You think I'm playing the victim because I don't want to listen to historical revisionism about ART from someone who has only been positive for 5 years? THAT'S whay I said back to the LTS for me.  Great--so you love Ms. H--I could care less--I used her as ONE example in my comments and it is from her most recent article in POZ.

We just throw our hands in the air?  Nope--that's why I was talking about the OPs poll being an incorrect assumption.  Its way I was explaining that we needed leadership from pozzies in the media to stretch a bit from their own issues and see a larger picture.  But if you're not into that, cool.

Its the role of any activist to cry foul--and do something about it.  Something I've been doing since the early 90's.  As for finger pointing, brother--seems like you've got a few aimed my way.  So what is it exactly that you disagree with me on?  Is it that you think we should massage our messages to highlight or downplay certain aspects of HIV?  Is it that PWA's who have the ear of the media should only discuss their own personal issues?  Is it that PhARMA should be chased down and given one big giant fuzzy-wuzzy hug by all of us who have lived with the side effects of ART for years?

Cuz those are the points I was discussing.  I have an extremely low threshold for BS and this thread started to reek like it to me.  "Spare me your heart wrenching story"?  Shhheeeesh.  Nice.

I'm not offended.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2010, 02:06:35 PM »
So  the newly diagnosed don't get it?  Like those of us infected in the 80's and early 90's somehow 'got it'?  There is no immaculate infection.  Information, fear messages etc, did nothing to keep us from getting HIV, why would one think it would work now.  Its MUCH deeper than that.  You think I'm playing the victim because I don't want to listen to historical revisionism about ART from someone who has only been positive for 5 years? THAT'S whay I said back to the LTS for me.  Great--so you love Ms. H--I could care less--I used her as ONE example in my comments and it is from her most recent article in POZ.

We just throw our hands in the air?  Nope--that's why I was talking about the OPs poll being an incorrect assumption.  Its way I was explaining that we needed leadership from pozzies in the media to stretch a bit from their own issues and see a larger picture.  But if you're not into that, cool.

Its the role of any activist to cry foul--and do something about it.  Something I've been doing since the early 90's.  As for finger pointing, brother--seems like you've got a few aimed my way.  So what is it exactly that you disagree with me on?  Is it that you think we should massage our messages to highlight or downplay certain aspects of HIV?  Is it that PWA's who have the ear of the media should only discuss their own personal issues?  Is it that PhARMA should be chased down and given one big giant fuzzy-wuzzy hug by all of us who have lived with the side effects of ART for years?

Cuz those are the points I was discussing.  I have an extremely low threshold for BS and this thread started to reek like it to me.  "Spare me your heart wrenching story"?  Shhheeeesh.  Nice.

I'm not offended.

You're a lawyer aren't you?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2010, 02:16:41 PM »
 ;D  NO!  Totally sorry if I come off that way :D  Just call it a character flaw!

Offline Joe K

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2010, 05:46:57 PM »
Marco,

I'm confused, because while I share your frustrations, with many aspects of HIV services, I can't see how flaunting your activist work, while disparaging the work of others, is productive to anyone. You come across to me, as an elitist, as if what you did as an activist is more worthy of praise than what anyone else did. You wonder why the messages, funding, drug costs, etc., are so screwed up and I submit it is attitudes like yours that only widen a gulf between people. Nobody likes to be demeaned, either directly or implied.

I am no better than the next person, because of what I have or have not done. We are all equal in the eyes of HIV and that must always remain the enemy.

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2010, 08:30:41 PM »
Marco,

I'm confused, because while I share your frustrations, with many aspects of HIV services, I can't see how flaunting your activist work, while disparaging the work of others, is productive to anyone. You come across to me, as an elitist, as if what you did as an activist is more worthy of praise than what anyone else did. You wonder why the messages, funding, drug costs, etc., are so screwed up and I submit it is attitudes like yours that only widen a gulf between people. Nobody likes to be demeaned, either directly or implied.

I am no better than the next person, because of what I have or have not done. We are all equal in the eyes of HIV and that must always remain the enemy.

If expecting more from PWAs who have access to the media than discussions of their shoes or the 'let them eat cake' crap spewed by Sullivan makes me an elitist--so be it.  Can't rmember 'flaunting' anything either.  I'll take your hit at my attitude as well.  I think sitting back and not calling people to accountability--whether they be poz or elected officials, is an example of how our activism has weakend over the years.

Offline wtfimpoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2010, 02:54:53 AM »
Marco-brilliant insight.  Mine was a false dichotomy and I agree with everything you've written.

Everyone else-I'm sorry for what I wrote.  It was poorly worded and not well thought out, tapped out on my iPhone before leaving for the day.  It was also a single mistake, intended to state what petrellis own readers have also maintained...that he doesn't look bad.  I realize that lipo is physically and emotionally excruciating and was not trying to downplay it's impact on the individual so much was I was trying to comment, as an outsider, on a condition whose problems are largely instigated by the reactions of outsiders.  It may have been the newbie equivalent of "but you don't act gay", but telling me to "shut the fuck up" and screaming at me for having dared misunderstand or comment upon an act of "empowerment" presumes certain parties to be beyond question.  If the issue in question were exclusively related to the experience of long term survivors, I would in fact shut the fuck up.  It is not.  Instead, the thread was started from my perspective as a general commentary on the effects of HIV discourse on at risk populations and the newly infected.  I'd like to point out that as long term survivors, these are populations whose viewpoints are relatively naive to you all.  I see, in this presumption that the negs can be terrified into staying negative, a misunderstanding about the nature of a great deal of new infections...namely that humans are always capable of controlling their acts and circumstances.   Sadly, and obviously, this is not always the case.  Continuing to pour on the fear just makes everything worse.
09/01/2009-neg
mid april, 2010, "flu like illness".
06/01/2010-weakly reactive ELISA, indeterminant WB
06/06/2010-reactive ELISA, confirmed positive.

DATE       CD4     %     VL
07/15/10  423     33    88k
08/28/10  489     19    189k
09/06/10-Started ATRIPLA
09/15/10  420     38    1400
11/21/10  517     25    51

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2010, 07:34:47 AM »
Mea Culpa!

Skeebo and Kilfoil got me to thinking.  I went back over my posts and while I still agree with thier intent, I was WAY to snarky and I apologize for that.  I'm not flaunting here as was suggested, but I have been working with a few groups on the new National HIV/AIDS Strategy and its helped to make me a bit more pissy than usual.  Upon reading my posts here--yeah, I sounded like a jerk and good have made my points with a bit more understanding and compasion.

Thanks for not only giving me a place to vent--but for calling me out for acting like a jerk.


Offline skeebo1969

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2010, 11:33:49 AM »

Thanks for not only giving me a place to vent--but for calling me out for acting like a jerk.

Damn you Marco!!!  I had this long reply all spell checked and everything, you're a lucky man (j/k).  I agree, more can be done, but at the same time remember there are those of us that do things that just go unnoticed or not mentioned.  Like I said activism has many roles and I like to think we all play a part in some way.

I will admit though, the way you feel about Mrs. Hoffman is the same way I feel about Magic Johnson- more could/should be done with the platform they have.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline mecch

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Re: But Andrew Sullivan told me it'd be a cakewalk!
« Reply #94 on: August 05, 2010, 03:44:54 PM »
Well she didn't have HIV, but she was a grand dame who did her share for us:

Into the Breach, Clad in Adolfo

There is value in reciting the trials that accompanied the onset of AIDS, because without it as context, there is so much that cannot be understood. Take the accomplishments of Judith Peabody, a socialite and philanthropist who died at 80 on July 25. Without the proper context, one might know only that Mrs. Peabody raised money for causes, as rich people are expected to do; that she gave and attended parties; that she dressed in clothes by Bill Blass, Carolina Herrera, Adolfo, Oscar de la Renta and Yves Saint Laurent; and that, like many women of her generation and era, she “volunteered.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/fashion/05Gimlet.html

R.I.P Judy Peabody
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

 


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