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Author Topic: But He Looked So Healthy! Australian Man Charged With "Knowingly Spreading HIV"  (Read 60458 times)

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Offline ds4146

  • Member
  • Posts: 317
Let's also point out that HIV isn't killing anyone.

That takes the cake! Wow. Stupid!

Offline Hellraiser

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic
That takes the cake! Wow. Stupid!

^ we've argued the semantics of the point before, there's no reason to stir the pot again.  The intent of my post was to point out to Boze that the criminalization of one virus over all others is not a good idea.  If you read the series of posts for context you would see that.

Offline Jeff G

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  • Member
  • Posts: 12,194
  • How am I doing Beren ?
That takes the cake! Wow. Stupid!

Heckraiser is far from stupid ... if a bad analogy makes one stupid we are all guilty sometime  ;D

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Posts: 12,238
  • Ninja Please
Heckraiser is far from stupid ... if a bad analogy makes one stupid we are all guilty sometime  ;D

Far from stupid isn't a long walk from dumb pretty.

MtD

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,705
^ we've argued the semantics of the point before, there's no reason to stir the pot again.  The intent of my post was to point out to Boze that the criminalization of one virus over all others is not a good idea.  If you read the series of posts for context you would see that.
Lastly - to all the nice folks who accused me of homophobia - puh-lease. All I do is state facts. If you find them offensive - you can call me a homophobe but it won't change the reality. I find it very popular in America today - labeling the ideological opponent a racist or homophobe or antisemite just because they hold a view that's different to one's own.  To me it's a sign of a weak argument - when you can't argue with a position, label the person a 'hater'.

THE BOZE


« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 10:40:43 AM by skeebo1969 »
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Boze

  • Member
  • Posts: 477
The analogy however ends there: an homicide does not require per se any cooperation of the victim, while the only kind of sex that may result in transmission and does not require the cooperation of both (or more!) people is rape.

And you must remember, that those who consent to unprotected sex also know that it may result in acquiring an STD.

Variations of consensual sex transmission are endless, of course, but I don't think even the most grievous ones can be rightfully compared to homicide.

I only used the quote about homicide to illustrate how the law considers intent. I didn't mean to imply that the two are equivalent. However - you brought up a good point about consensual act.

Ok - What is rape? Rape is sex without consent. To me someone who is HIV+ and doesn't disclose (or likely activel lies about it) it is engaging in a form of rape - since the victim has not given consent to the aforementioned act. Hence I don't consider the act to be a form of consentual act between two adults. Just like a woman can claim rape if she was given date drugs.

Why do I think HIV is different from chlamydia - because of the severity of the disease.

I feel like some Alice in Wonderland - having to explain the most basic things to people who live in an alternate universe. Believe you me - most of the population at large completely agrees with me - sorry for being the messenger.

Realist - you used up your whole reply to call me an idiot in five different ways. It was duly noted, but I don't see a point in replying line-by-line.
==========
Aug08 - Seroconversion
Mar10 - Diagnosis; cd4 690 - VL 19,000
Apr10 - cd4 600
May10 - VL 4,500
Jun10 - started Atripla ; VL 113
Jul 10 - UD vl, CD4 590
Aug 10 - UD, CD4 810, 52%
Nov 10 - UD, CD4 980

Offline Boze

  • Member
  • Posts: 477
==========
Aug08 - Seroconversion
Mar10 - Diagnosis; cd4 690 - VL 19,000
Apr10 - cd4 600
May10 - VL 4,500
Jun10 - started Atripla ; VL 113
Jul 10 - UD vl, CD4 590
Aug 10 - UD, CD4 810, 52%
Nov 10 - UD, CD4 980

Offline Rev. Moon

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,782
  • Smart ass faggot ©

Ok - What is rape? Rape is sex without consent. To me someone who is HIV+ and doesn't disclose (or likely activel lies about it) it is engaging in a form of rape - since the victim has not given consent to the aforementioned act. Hence I don't consider the act to be a form of consentual act between two adults. Just like a woman can claim rape if she was given date drugs.

The absurdity (and the disrespect toward those who have been sexually abused) of your line of "thinking" is amazing.

Believe you me - most of the population at large completely agrees with me - sorry for being the messenger.

Go ahead and keep saying that to yourself; some day you may even believe it.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Realist

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    • NotDownNotOut's Blog
Realist - you used up your whole reply to call me an idiot in five different ways. It was duly noted, but I don't see a point in replying line-by-line.

No I didn't, all I can suggest is that you read the posts again.

Calling you an idiot would be over emotive in the context of this discussion, my responses to your criticism of my posts and my views (self-serving or otherwise) have not been emotive.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 11:50:39 AM by Realist »
23/02/10 Tests confirmed
25/02/10 13100 220 24%
12/03/10 19800 372 19%
26/03/10 Atripla
30/04/10 58 286 23%
28/05/10 45 222 21%
25/06/10 UD 301 23%
24/09/10 UD 283 22%
01/12/10 UD 319 23%
11/03/11 UD 293 28%
10/06/11 UD 423 24%
23/08/11 UD 389 26%
28/02/11 UD 315 34%

I blogged it all http://notdownnotout.blogspot.com

Offline Ann

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  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?

Ok - What is rape? Rape is sex without consent. To me someone who is HIV+ and doesn't disclose (or likely activel lies about it) it is engaging in a form of rape - since the victim has not given consent to the aforementioned act. Hence I don't consider the act to be a form of consentual act between two adults. Just like a woman can claim rape if she was given date drugs.

Bollocks. To consent to unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI, including but not limited to hiv.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,965
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...

Ok - What is rape? Rape is sex without consent. To me someone who is HIV+ and doesn't disclose (or likely activel lies about it) it is engaging in a form of rape - since the victim has not given consent to the aforementioned act. Hence I don't consider the act to be a form of consentual act between two adults. Just like a woman can claim rape if she was given date drugs.

I feel like some Alice in Wonderland - having to explain the most basic things to people who live in an alternate universe. Believe you me - most of the population at large completely agrees with me - sorry for being the messenger.


Boze - the act is RAPE. The act is not date drugs. The act is consensual sex. The act is not nondisclosure. Repeat to yourself.... the act is RAPE..... not date drugs.... the act is consensual sex. The act is not nondisclosure.
Persons are charged with RAPE - they are not charged with giving the person date drugs.  
To even say that someone who does not disclose "is engaging in a form of rape" is extremely offensive to those who have been raped.  
You are right about feeling like someone in Alice in Wonderland - however, it is others who keep having to explain the most basic of things to you. And, given the responses you are getting to your post I don't think most of the population would agree with you.  Do you have any stats to back up this type of statement?  Unless you took a worldwide survey there would be no way to do so -- and this is the point that has been made to you before - the generalizations, the blanket statements, and the assumptions that the unnamed populace is in agreement with your views - when from what I can see - the named and evident populace (at least on these forums) is not in agreement.

Edited to fix spelling error
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline loop78

  • Member
  • Posts: 147
Ok - What is rape? Rape is sex without consent. To me someone who is HIV+ and doesn't disclose (or likely activel lies about it) it is engaging in a form of rape - since the victim has not given consent to the aforementioned act. Hence I don't consider the act to be a form of consentual act between two adults. Just like a woman can claim rape if she was given date drugs.

Boze, if that were true, that "rape" would happen anytime an hiv+ person has unprotected sex without disclosing, since the "victim" wouldn't have given consent to have sex with an hiv+ person: whether transmission occurred or not would be irrelevant.

I also agree this conception of rape is offensive for real rape victims.

Anyway, and just for the record, if I have any kind of vested interest in this matter, it isn't the eventual risk of being prosecuted (as since my diagnosis I've always disclosed and used protection), it's that I refuse to see myself as a helpless victim. I need to take responsibility for what happened to be able to get over it.

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • Posts: 24,227
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
I appreciate the intellectual rigor of Boze.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Rev. Moon

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  • Posts: 3,782
  • Smart ass faggot ©

You are right about feeling like someone in Alice in Wonderland

Hmmm... come to think about it, hopefully Bozus drinks the entire contents of whatever that bottle is called and he shrinks to the point where we never see him again.

I appreciate the intellectual rigor of Boze.

I'm sure that you do.  You've always had secret crushes on them skraits.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Ann

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  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
I appreciate the intellectual rigor of Boze.

Rigor mortis more like.

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline TabooPrincess

  • Member
  • Posts: 279
I kind of understand the gist of what Boze is saying - if I've read it right (which could be doubtful given my wandering mind).  It's not right to have un-protected sex with someone knowing that you hiv.  This can't be doubted and I'm sure none of us would say that it is.  This is something that the majority of people with hiv would not do.  However a small few do.  Nor is it right to have un-protected sex if you've knowingly got any STI.  But how to enforce that is almost impossible; the only solution quite rightly being that if you have un-protected sex you are putting yourself at risk and so consenting to what may come along with that; be it an STI or a pregnancy.

But still, it's not right to knowingly infect other people.

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick...the discussion is getting somewhat long-winded....
09/ 2008 - Seroconversion
11/2008 - Tested pos, cd4 640 vl 25400
12/2008 - cd4 794 vl 27798, 35%
03/2009 - cd4 844 vl 68846, 35%
06/2009 - cd4 476 vl 49151, 33% (pregnancy confirmed)
08/2009 - cd4 464 vl 54662, 32%
Started meds for pregnancy (Kaletra, AZT, Viread)
09/2009 - cd4 841 vl 3213, 42%
10/2009 - cd4 860 vl 1088, 41%
11/2009 - cd4 771 vl 563, 38%
12/2009 - cd4 885 vl 151 42%
Discontinued meds after baby born
02/2010 - cd4 841 vl 63781, 38%
05/2010 - cd4 1080 vl 113000, 39%
08/2010 - cd4 770 vl 109242
12/2010 - cd4 642 vl 111000, 34%
06/2011 - cd4 450 vl 222000, 33%
11/2011 - cd4 419 vl 212000, 24%
03/2012 - cd4 280 vl 118000, 26% (repeated Cd4 at 360)
05/2012 -cd4 360 vl 99,190
10/2012 Atripla, cd4 690, vl 80
12/2012 Darunavir, norvir, truvada, Cd4 680, vl u/d
07/2013 cd4 750,ud

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,705
I feel like some Alice in Wonderland - having to explain the most basic things to people who live in an alternate universe. Believe you me - most of the population at large completely agrees with me - sorry for being the messenger.


And that's why some of the population gets to join us in this wonderful world of Alice.  If you're the messenger then I guess you should be shot, because it's this very same message that causes people to join our ranks everyday.

Whether you realize it or not, we pretty much frown on members who have posted about having sex without disclosing, and just the same, we frown on people who are not smart enough to protect themselves or place their negative status in the hands of someone else.

It's all about personal responsibility and until the population at large understands this we can continue to welcome our new members in I just Tested Poz.

I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,795
  • 31 Years Poz
And that's why some of the population gets to join us in this wonderful world of Alice.  If you're the messenger then I guess you should be shot, because it's this very same message that causes people to join our ranks everyday.

Whether you realize it or not, we pretty much frown on members who have posted about having sex without disclosing, and just the same, we frown on people who are not smart enough to protect themselves or place their negative status in the hands of someone else.

It's all about personal responsibility and until the population at large understands this we can continue to welcome our new members in I just Tested Poz.

Skee, excellent comments, brief and very on point.

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic
Didn't we have this exact same discussion in this very thread like 2 months ago?

Having sex while being knowingly positive and doing nothing to protect your partner makes you an asshole, and in some cases a criminal, the question is SHOULD it be criminally negligent.  The partner is not an innocent bystander EXCEPT in the case of rape.  The negative partner is aware of the possibility of getting any number of STIs and if they choose to forego using condoms then they have put their life into someone else's hands.

Game Over Boze.  You can't argue your way out of this.  They have the option of saying "Hey I'm not going to sleep with you unless we use a condom".  I'm not casting aspersions on people who don't say this as almost every last one of us on this forum made this very mistake.  Are we absolved of all responsibility because the other party should have disclosed?  No, we are not.  The problem we have with your opinion is it carries this undertone of "I was innocent and some hiv+ asshole gave me this disease!".  The truth is you were just as much a party to your infection as your sex partner.  I think you're desperately trying to play the victim and you'll use any rationale you can find to justify your position.

Offline sweetasmeli

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  • Love what you are...
I've tried so hard to stay away from this thread but can't keep my mouth shut any longer.

Some people who I regarded as friends who I thought were supportive of my situation have now left me to believe they were obviously full of shit...

Ann - You said that even if your partner had known his HIV status that it would still had been your fault that you'd been infected. So, despite everything you have said to me (online/on the phone/in person) that it is in fact what you think of me and my situation???

Matty - I really thought you were my friend.

I sit here totally flabbergasted, yet totally unsurprised at the utter hypocrisy I see abundant in this thread.

Debra

PS: Those of you who know me know my situation. Those of you who don't can research my past posts/the archives.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 07:17:54 PM by sweetasmeli »
/\___/\       /\__/\
(=' . '=)    (=' . '=)
(,,,_ ,,,)/   (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

Yeia kai hara (health and happiness) to everyone!

Offline bryan21

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  • Posts: 120
 having sex with someone and not telling them u have HIV is WRONG!!!
(now i f u dont know then that just sucks) but i feel anyone that has unprotected sex with someone and doesnt tell the other person should go to jail!
now if they tell the person and the person dont care then thats on the other person and i dont feel they should go to jail!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 09:31:31 PM by bryan21 »

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic

I feel the same dam way having sex with someone and not telling them u have HIV is WRONG!!!
(now i f u dont know then that just sucks) but i feel anyone that has unprotected sex with someone and doesnt tell the other person should go to jail!
now if they tell the person and the person dont care then thats on the other person and i dont feel they should go to jail!

That's actually completely contrary to what Ann just said

Offline bryan21

  • Member
  • Posts: 120
there u go i changed it!hahah!
thats what i think about it!

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Ninja Please
I've tried so hard to stay away from this thread but can't keep my mouth shut any longer.

Some people who I regarded as friends who I thought were supportive of my situation have now left me to believe they were obviously full of shit...

Ann - You said that even if your partner had known his HIV status that it would still had been your fault that you'd been infected. So, despite everything you have said to me (online/on the phone/in person) that it is in fact what you think of me and my situation???

Matty - I really thought you were my friend.

I sit here totally flabbergasted, yet totally unsurprised at the utter hypocrisy I see abundant in this thread.

Debra

PS: Those of you who know me know my situation. Those of you who don't can research my past posts/the archives.

I will respond to this when my rage has cooled a little.

MtD

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,705



   I fail to see how the message gets so easily twisted.  Are we saying it wrong? 

   Telling the negative populous to take responsibility for their health by no means admonishes responsibility of those who are positive.  Telling a newly infected person not to dwell on the person who possibly knowingly infected them and to take responsibility for failing to protect themselves also doesn't wipe away responsibility for those who are positive.  We give this message where it serves purpose.

   Until I see someone who is positive come onto the forums and say, "Hey everyone I purposely set out to infect people" my focus will remain on those who are having difficulty accepting their own diagnosis and perhaps those that had a close call and remain negative.

   As a group we have to deal with the audience available.  I have yet to see the other party (people who knowingly infect) come onto these forums and share such... and until that time comes there's really no way to address them.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline TabooPrincess

  • Member
  • Posts: 279
I've tried so hard to stay away from this thread but can't keep my mouth shut any longer.

Some people who I regarded as friends who I thought were supportive of my situation have now left me to believe they were obviously full of shit...

Ann - You said that even if your partner had known his HIV status that it would still had been your fault that you'd been infected. So, despite everything you have said to me (online/on the phone/in person) that it is in fact what you think of me and my situation???

Matty - I really thought you were my friend.

I sit here totally flabbergasted, yet totally unsurprised at the utter hypocrisy I see abundant in this thread.

Debra

PS: Those of you who know me know my situation. Those of you who don't can research my past posts/the archives.

I'm confused too .....
09/ 2008 - Seroconversion
11/2008 - Tested pos, cd4 640 vl 25400
12/2008 - cd4 794 vl 27798, 35%
03/2009 - cd4 844 vl 68846, 35%
06/2009 - cd4 476 vl 49151, 33% (pregnancy confirmed)
08/2009 - cd4 464 vl 54662, 32%
Started meds for pregnancy (Kaletra, AZT, Viread)
09/2009 - cd4 841 vl 3213, 42%
10/2009 - cd4 860 vl 1088, 41%
11/2009 - cd4 771 vl 563, 38%
12/2009 - cd4 885 vl 151 42%
Discontinued meds after baby born
02/2010 - cd4 841 vl 63781, 38%
05/2010 - cd4 1080 vl 113000, 39%
08/2010 - cd4 770 vl 109242
12/2010 - cd4 642 vl 111000, 34%
06/2011 - cd4 450 vl 222000, 33%
11/2011 - cd4 419 vl 212000, 24%
03/2012 - cd4 280 vl 118000, 26% (repeated Cd4 at 360)
05/2012 -cd4 360 vl 99,190
10/2012 Atripla, cd4 690, vl 80
12/2012 Darunavir, norvir, truvada, Cd4 680, vl u/d
07/2013 cd4 750,ud

Offline TabooPrincess

  • Member
  • Posts: 279


   I fail to see how the message gets so easily twisted.  Are we saying it wrong? 

   Telling the negative populous to take responsibility for their health by no means admonishes responsibility of those who are positive.  Telling a newly infected person not to dwell on the person who possibly knowingly infected them and to take responsibility for failing to protect themselves also doesn't wipe away responsibility for those who are positive.  We give this message where it serves purpose.

   Until I see someone who is positive come onto the forums and say, "Hey everyone I purposely set out to infect people" my focus will remain on those who are having difficulty accepting their own diagnosis and perhaps those that had a close call and remain negative.

   As a group we have to deal with the audience available.  I have yet to see the other party (people who knowingly infect) come onto these forums and share such... and until that time comes there's really no way to address them.

I get what you're saying but you can't say that people have equally responsibility...you just can't think that...if someone KNOWS they are positive then they have MORE responsibility, and if someone is deceived into thinking that the person they are engaging in un-protected sex with is negative then how are they equally responsible?  That means that no-one would ever have un-protected sex ever again, because they 'might' be being deceived....they 'might' be being lied to....I'm confused by this thread now.
09/ 2008 - Seroconversion
11/2008 - Tested pos, cd4 640 vl 25400
12/2008 - cd4 794 vl 27798, 35%
03/2009 - cd4 844 vl 68846, 35%
06/2009 - cd4 476 vl 49151, 33% (pregnancy confirmed)
08/2009 - cd4 464 vl 54662, 32%
Started meds for pregnancy (Kaletra, AZT, Viread)
09/2009 - cd4 841 vl 3213, 42%
10/2009 - cd4 860 vl 1088, 41%
11/2009 - cd4 771 vl 563, 38%
12/2009 - cd4 885 vl 151 42%
Discontinued meds after baby born
02/2010 - cd4 841 vl 63781, 38%
05/2010 - cd4 1080 vl 113000, 39%
08/2010 - cd4 770 vl 109242
12/2010 - cd4 642 vl 111000, 34%
06/2011 - cd4 450 vl 222000, 33%
11/2011 - cd4 419 vl 212000, 24%
03/2012 - cd4 280 vl 118000, 26% (repeated Cd4 at 360)
05/2012 -cd4 360 vl 99,190
10/2012 Atripla, cd4 690, vl 80
12/2012 Darunavir, norvir, truvada, Cd4 680, vl u/d
07/2013 cd4 750,ud

Offline edfu

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,084
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline sweetasmeli

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Love what you are...
I get what you're saying but you can't say that people have equally responsibility...you just can't think that...if someone KNOWS they are positive then they have MORE responsibility, and if someone is deceived into thinking that the person they are engaging in un-protected sex with is negative then how are they equally responsible?  That means that no-one would ever have un-protected sex ever again, because they 'might' be being deceived....they 'might' be being lied to....

Exactly.
/\___/\       /\__/\
(=' . '=)    (=' . '=)
(,,,_ ,,,)/   (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

Yeia kai hara (health and happiness) to everyone!

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic
Taboo and Sweet, that is the point.  You cannot trust anyone else with your health.  The only surefire way to not get any sort of STI is to assume that your partner is potentially carrying all of them.  Thus use condoms every time and you won't pick up anything.

Offline ds4146

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^ we've argued the semantics of the point before, there's no reason to stir the pot again.
My intent was not to stir the pot, and perhaps the word was a bit harsh, however you can not think that you can say something like that and not be called on it. And yes, I have read the contents of this thread. Clearly we both need to thank before we write.

Offline skeebo1969

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I get what you're saying but you can't say that people have equally responsibility...you just can't think that...if someone KNOWS they are positive then they have MORE responsibility, and if someone is deceived into thinking that the person they are engaging in un-protected sex with is negative then how are they equally responsible?  That means that no-one would ever have un-protected sex ever again, because they 'might' be being deceived....they 'might' be being lied to....I'm confused by this thread now.

  And where did we say positive people should not disclose?  Have you ever thought about what makes you assume this?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline komnaes

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  • Posts: 1,893
I get what you're saying but you can't say that people have equally responsibility...you just can't think that...if someone KNOWS they are positive then they have MORE responsibility, and if someone is deceived into thinking that the person they are engaging in un-protected sex with is negative then how are they equally responsible?  That means that no-one would ever have un-protected sex ever again, because they 'might' be being deceived....they 'might' be being lied to....I'm confused by this thread now.

You're not confused.. you're just one of many who thinks it's others' responsibility to make decisions for them, even when they have the full knowledge of all likely and expected consequences of engaging in certain actions. And if those others fail to inform or even lie to them about those risks, the others are at total fault even when the non-disclosure or misrepresentation of (no risk) information should not have affected their decisions whether to participate in the risky act in the first place.

Please bear in mind that I am referring to criminal/legal responsibility here. And please don't use the analogy of murder or other forms of body harm. The simple reason being that while the infecting party knows he/she can infect a HIV- person, he/she does not have proof that the person he/she is going to engage in unsafe sex with is indeed HIV-, i.e. unlike, for example, firing a gun at someone at the head, one cannot reasonably expect to infect like in this example to kill or cause serious harm.

The disclosure or lying itself in most circumstances should therefore not have the effect of repudiating the consent given to the acceptance of risk of acquiring HIV by the infected party because to have consented to participate in unsafe sex is a de facto consent to all expected consequences, whether the infecting party has disclosed his/her status truthfully.

The exceptions of course include cases which consent is NOT given in a manner that the "victim" has no control over. Rape is an obvious example, or when a condom is taken off in the middle (which in my opinion is the same as rape).

Another exception is when the infecting party owns a legal duty of care to the infected party (marriage or a civil union, in which monogamy is legally expected), in which case the latter should not be expected to have anticipated the risk of acquiring STDs, i.e. if it wasn't for that legal duty, the infected party would not have given the consent to unsafe sex.

The argument that just because the infecting party is aware of his/her status so he/she must bear all the criminal responsibility falls apart not just at this line of reasoning, which all criminal jurisdiction has to base on, it also fails on another "fairness" ground - if you argue that someone who knows should bear the criminal responsibility, what about someone who's already HIV+ and always aware of his/her risk but has intentionally not taken any step to ascertain his/her status before engaging in unsafe sex? So somehow he/she has less of a responsibility by willfully ignoring the chance that he/she can be infectious?

I don't know what more can we say on this subject of criminalizing non-disclosure or deception in consensual unsafe sex. It's unfortunate that some of us here got infected by a lying partner or boyfriend/girlfriend, but to demand that he/she should be put behind bars serves no other purpose than satisfying a sense of misplaced "justice" that is doing more harm to our HIV community by creating this highly stigmatized exception to the general criminal jurisdiction, it's also sending a very destructive message to the society at large.

(modified for typos)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 01:33:48 PM by komnaes »
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline gemini20

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  • Posts: 262
Thus use condoms every time and you won't pick up anything.

I've been avoiding adding my two pennies worth in this thread but the above quote tipped me into posting!

I was infected with HIV on one occasion when a condom failed - my partner at the time knew he was HIV positive, had been diagnosed approximately 5 years but did not inform me of this until the moment he realised the condom had failed.

I know for a fact that it was only this one instance because three days before meeting Ian I had become a blood donor and know for certain I was not infected prior to this relationship. As I was not on the pill and didn't want to get pregnant, condoms were used on every occasion we had sexual intercourse and only once did the condom fail.

Had I known in advance that he was HIV positive I would have been running a mile in the other direction and sure as hell would not have had a sexual relationship with him. Why, because back then in 1991, I had absolutely no idea about HIV (if you were a white, heterosexual female who had never injected drugs then you were the least likely to be at risk was my perception) and would have been terrified about getting involved with a positive person.

Personally I believe if you know you are HIV positive then you should be doing your utmost to ensure your infection stays with you. And in my eyes honesty is always the best policy even if it means that you may face a ton of rejection, rather that than put someone in the position that someone has put you in i.e. infected (assuming that your infection was from a sexual relationship).

Okay, I'll go and calm down now.

Emma


« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 01:39:06 PM by gemini20 »
Diagnosed 11th September 1991
Current CD4 count 484 (26%); viral load undetectable (December 2011).
Restarting boosted Prezista 08/04/11

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic
Personally I believe if you know you are HIV positive then you should be doing your utmost to ensure your infection stays with you. And in my eyes honesty is always the best policy even if it means that you may face a ton of rejection, rather that than put someone in the position that someone has put you in i.e. infected (assuming that your infection was from a sexual relationship).

This is my belief as well, I won't even go on a date with someone without disclosing because I feel like I would be misrepresenting myself to some degree.  I also believe that if they can't handle it then we need to get the education out of the way up front or go our separate ways.

As for the condom failure, I suppose I should have qualified that statement as well and I apologize if I upset you with my choice of words Emma.  I'm doing my best to attempt to put the words on the page but without the inflection the meaning can sound a bit gruff (thus my preamble apology to taboo earlier).

Offline J.R.E.

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,218
  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 8/2514,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 11%

  
 62 years young.

Offline TabooPrincess

  • Member
  • Posts: 279
Taboo and Sweet, that is the point.  You cannot trust anyone else with your health.  The only surefire way to not get any sort of STI is to assume that your partner is potentially carrying all of them.  Thus use condoms every time and you won't pick up anything.

A rapid decline of the species thus ensues...... ::)
09/ 2008 - Seroconversion
11/2008 - Tested pos, cd4 640 vl 25400
12/2008 - cd4 794 vl 27798, 35%
03/2009 - cd4 844 vl 68846, 35%
06/2009 - cd4 476 vl 49151, 33% (pregnancy confirmed)
08/2009 - cd4 464 vl 54662, 32%
Started meds for pregnancy (Kaletra, AZT, Viread)
09/2009 - cd4 841 vl 3213, 42%
10/2009 - cd4 860 vl 1088, 41%
11/2009 - cd4 771 vl 563, 38%
12/2009 - cd4 885 vl 151 42%
Discontinued meds after baby born
02/2010 - cd4 841 vl 63781, 38%
05/2010 - cd4 1080 vl 113000, 39%
08/2010 - cd4 770 vl 109242
12/2010 - cd4 642 vl 111000, 34%
06/2011 - cd4 450 vl 222000, 33%
11/2011 - cd4 419 vl 212000, 24%
03/2012 - cd4 280 vl 118000, 26% (repeated Cd4 at 360)
05/2012 -cd4 360 vl 99,190
10/2012 Atripla, cd4 690, vl 80
12/2012 Darunavir, norvir, truvada, Cd4 680, vl u/d
07/2013 cd4 750,ud

Offline TabooPrincess

  • Member
  • Posts: 279
Opinions, as they are, are as varied as the number of people taking part in whatever argument. and as truth is what the majority agrees, it seems to be that here the consensus is that a basic act (be it for the sake of the prgression of the species or an expression of love, lust etc) has become akin to kamakazism.
consider, for a moment, that you're walking down the street. you trust the guy driving a car down the road is not gonna veer and run you over. you don't expect the woman walking next to you to suddenly stab you. you buy meat at the butcher with the trust that he's not gonna give you a chicken chock block with salmonella.
our civilisation stands only because we put our lives, everyday, in every way, in the hands of others with the trust that that they put the same price on it as they put on theirs. this is the same logic people approach everything, including sex. knowingly passing on HIV violates this basic understanding.
passing on other STI knowingly is, i believe, criminalized under the same law(UK). the law is not specific to HIV.

For example, if I get on a bus should I breathalise the driver everytime just in case one time he is drunk and crashes?  Am I therefore equally responsible because I trusted the bus-driver and he abused that trust?

All this just adds up to people staying in their houses with a giant bubble (or condom, lol) around them...the species dies...we die...
09/ 2008 - Seroconversion
11/2008 - Tested pos, cd4 640 vl 25400
12/2008 - cd4 794 vl 27798, 35%
03/2009 - cd4 844 vl 68846, 35%
06/2009 - cd4 476 vl 49151, 33% (pregnancy confirmed)
08/2009 - cd4 464 vl 54662, 32%
Started meds for pregnancy (Kaletra, AZT, Viread)
09/2009 - cd4 841 vl 3213, 42%
10/2009 - cd4 860 vl 1088, 41%
11/2009 - cd4 771 vl 563, 38%
12/2009 - cd4 885 vl 151 42%
Discontinued meds after baby born
02/2010 - cd4 841 vl 63781, 38%
05/2010 - cd4 1080 vl 113000, 39%
08/2010 - cd4 770 vl 109242
12/2010 - cd4 642 vl 111000, 34%
06/2011 - cd4 450 vl 222000, 33%
11/2011 - cd4 419 vl 212000, 24%
03/2012 - cd4 280 vl 118000, 26% (repeated Cd4 at 360)
05/2012 -cd4 360 vl 99,190
10/2012 Atripla, cd4 690, vl 80
12/2012 Darunavir, norvir, truvada, Cd4 680, vl u/d
07/2013 cd4 750,ud

Offline TabooPrincess

  • Member
  • Posts: 279
 And where did we say positive people should not disclose?  Have you ever thought about what makes you assume this?



Huh?  I never said anything about that...?  Perhaps I gave that impression because of my own situation but I didn't intend to assume that was the general concensus here, my apologies if it came accross that way.
09/ 2008 - Seroconversion
11/2008 - Tested pos, cd4 640 vl 25400
12/2008 - cd4 794 vl 27798, 35%
03/2009 - cd4 844 vl 68846, 35%
06/2009 - cd4 476 vl 49151, 33% (pregnancy confirmed)
08/2009 - cd4 464 vl 54662, 32%
Started meds for pregnancy (Kaletra, AZT, Viread)
09/2009 - cd4 841 vl 3213, 42%
10/2009 - cd4 860 vl 1088, 41%
11/2009 - cd4 771 vl 563, 38%
12/2009 - cd4 885 vl 151 42%
Discontinued meds after baby born
02/2010 - cd4 841 vl 63781, 38%
05/2010 - cd4 1080 vl 113000, 39%
08/2010 - cd4 770 vl 109242
12/2010 - cd4 642 vl 111000, 34%
06/2011 - cd4 450 vl 222000, 33%
11/2011 - cd4 419 vl 212000, 24%
03/2012 - cd4 280 vl 118000, 26% (repeated Cd4 at 360)
05/2012 -cd4 360 vl 99,190
10/2012 Atripla, cd4 690, vl 80
12/2012 Darunavir, norvir, truvada, Cd4 680, vl u/d
07/2013 cd4 750,ud

Offline Boze

  • Member
  • Posts: 477
I think this is one of those things where people just believe what they believe - with no likelihood of changing the view. Moreover they seem to consider anybody else who is of opposing view to be a combination of {stupid / immoral / utterly stubborn}.

I've done what I set out to achieve - show to the people who share my view and are in minority on this forum that they are not {immoral / stupid}, have every right to it, and in fact are in line with how the majority of English speaking world thinks about it. Now I will do my best to leave the issue alone.
==========
Aug08 - Seroconversion
Mar10 - Diagnosis; cd4 690 - VL 19,000
Apr10 - cd4 600
May10 - VL 4,500
Jun10 - started Atripla ; VL 113
Jul 10 - UD vl, CD4 590
Aug 10 - UD, CD4 810, 52%
Nov 10 - UD, CD4 980

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • Posts: 24,227
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Oh nice one, Bozy... loved that subtle working in of xenophobia.  Good one.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Boze

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  • Posts: 477
Oh nice one, Bozy... loved that subtle working in of xenophobia.  Good one.

Nah - not at all. I just looked up laws for criminal hiv transmission and it appears that

"In many English-speaking countries and in most of the states who have signed the European Convention of Human Rights, knowingly infecting others with HIV can lead to criminal prosecution."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_transmission_of_HIV#Legal_definition
==========
Aug08 - Seroconversion
Mar10 - Diagnosis; cd4 690 - VL 19,000
Apr10 - cd4 600
May10 - VL 4,500
Jun10 - started Atripla ; VL 113
Jul 10 - UD vl, CD4 590
Aug 10 - UD, CD4 810, 52%
Nov 10 - UD, CD4 980

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,136
  • Semi-misanthropic
Nah - not at all. I just looked up laws for criminal hiv transmission and it appears that

"In many English-speaking countries and in most of the states who have signed the European Convention of Human Rights, knowingly infecting others with HIV can lead to criminal prosecution."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_transmission_of_HIV#Legal_definition

And what penalty does "sleeping with someone whose hiv status you are unaware of" carry?

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Posts: 12,238
  • Ninja Please
I've tried so hard to stay away from this thread but can't keep my mouth shut any longer.

Some people who I regarded as friends who I thought were supportive of my situation have now left me to believe they were obviously full of shit...

Ann - You said that even if your partner had known his HIV status that it would still had been your fault that you'd been infected. So, despite everything you have said to me (online/on the phone/in person) that it is in fact what you think of me and my situation???

Matty - I really thought you were my friend.

I sit here totally flabbergasted, yet totally unsurprised at the utter hypocrisy I see abundant in this thread.

Debra

PS: Those of you who know me know my situation. Those of you who don't can research my past posts/the archives.

No law would have protected you from being infected. Yeah your situation is a nasty one. He lied to you and infected you knowingly. You didn't find out until he was laid up in some hospital rotting away from AIDS.

Whatever. You, a consenting adult, elected to trust him. That's what really matters.

To consent to unprotected sex is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmissible infection.

That applies to you as much as anyone else.

Bad things happen to good people. The fact that you're still pissing on about it all these years later, well that's what make me feel sorry for you. Change the fucking record already.

Moreover the idea that your predicament is the fulcrum upon which major issues of HIV and public policy must shift is just fucking risible.

You have some fucking front turning up here after all this time snivelling about friendship. I remember when you fluttered out of this place. You said something to the effect that you'd gotten as much out of this community as you could and bid us a fond farewell.

Gone for more than two years and now you play the fucking friendship card on me? Fuck that shit, sister. I've not heard from you in all that time. Not a single email, PM, SMS. how-are-ya, kiss-me-arse or anything.

Friendship is and always has been a one fucking way street with you.

MtD

Offline sweetasmeli

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  • Posts: 1,052
  • Love what you are...
No law would have protected you from being infected. Yeah your situation is a nasty one. He lied to you and infected you knowingly. You didn't find out until he was laid up in some hospital rotting away from AIDS.

Whatever. You, a consenting adult, elected to trust him. That's what really matters.

To consent to unprotected sex is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmissible infection.

That applies to you as much as anyone else.

Bad things happen to good people. The fact that you're still pissing on about it all these years later, well that's what make me feel sorry for you. Change the fucking record already.

Moreover the idea that your predicament is the fulcrum upon which major issues of HIV and public policy must shift is just fucking risible.

You have some fucking front turning up here after all this time snivelling about friendship. I remember when you fluttered out of this place. You said something to the effect that you'd gotten as much out of this community as you could and bid us a fond farewell.

Gone for more than two years and now you play the fucking friendship card on me? Fuck that shit, sister. I've not heard from you in all that time. Not a single email, PM, SMS. how-are-ya, kiss-me-arse or anything.

Friendship is and always has been a one fucking way street with you.

MtD

And so here it is, the cleverly worded vindictive response I half-expected.

For your information, I did email you and I did text you but I heard nothing back from you. Quel surprise. No longer part of the Aidsmeds clique eh, so out of sight out of mindÖtalk about one-way friendships. You haven't the first clue what friendship is.

Well havenít you changed your tune? Need I remind you that you and Ann and others openly supported me and my situation on the old forums? Those were the "full of shit" and "hypocrisy" referrals I made in my other post. But of course those archives canít be accessed now, so I guess itís a moot point. Just my word against yours.

And one of reasons Iíd been away from the forums for so long Ė not that youíll care, as youíre obviously such a self-centred self-serving two-faced excuse for a human being Ė is that my dad died last year.

As for what happened to me, I have my reasons for still "pissing on about it all these years later" as you so eloquently put it. But you wouldnít give a shit about that because all you give a shit about is you, having your obnoxious voice heard and getting the last cutting word in to make someone else feel bad.
 
You might be knowledgeable Matty, but youíll never truly be liked or loved. Bullies never are.

MattyTheDamned and his clever words and wicked tongue.

Took you all day to come up with that, eh? Well, donít give up your day job, sister!

Adios and fuck you.

Debra
/\___/\       /\__/\
(=' . '=)    (=' . '=)
(,,,_ ,,,)/   (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

Yeia kai hara (health and happiness) to everyone!

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Posts: 12,238
  • Ninja Please
And so here it is, the cleverly worded vindictive response I half-expected.

For your information, I did email you and I did text you but I heard nothing back from you. Quel surprise. No longer part of the Aidsmeds clique eh, so out of sight out of mind…talk about one-way friendships. You haven't the first clue what friendship is.

Well haven’t you changed your tune? Need I remind you that you and Ann and others openly supported me and my situation on the old forums? Those were the "full of shit" and "hypocrisy" referrals I made in my other post. But of course those archives can’t be accessed now, so I guess it’s a moot point. Just my word against yours.

And one of reasons I’d been away from the forums for so long – not that you’ll care, as you’re obviously such a self-centred self-serving two-faced excuse for a human being – is that my dad died last year.

As for what happened to me, I have my reasons for still "pissing on about it all these years later" as you so eloquently put it. But you wouldn’t give a shit about that because all you give a shit about is you, having your obnoxious voice heard and getting the last cutting word in to make someone else feel bad.
 
You might be knowledgeable Matty, but you’ll never truly be liked or loved. Bullies never are.

MattyTheDamned and his clever words and wicked tongue.

Took you all day to come up with that, eh? Well, don’t give up your day job, sister!

Adios and fuck you.

Debra


More lies and manipulative shit. And with that there's nothing left for us to say to one another.

MtD

Offline komnaes

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  • Posts: 1,893
Opinions, as they are, are as varied as the number of people taking part in whatever argument. and as truth is what the majority agrees,

So if the majority of your country decides to put to you and all other HIVers in camp and lock you up you'd happily submit? It's called argumentum ad populm.

consider, for a moment, that you're walking down the street. you trust the guy driving a car down the road is not gonna veer and run you over. you don't expect the woman walking next to you to suddenly stab you. ...

Do you even read what others' arguments? When you walk down the street, you can't expect and don't consent to be stabbed or veer down. But when you consent to have unprotected sex, you can both expect and consent to all likely consequences, including STD.

our civilisation stands only because we put our lives, everyday, in every way, in the hands of others with the trust that that they put the same price on it as they put on theirs. this is the same logic people approach everything, including sex.

You do know that if that is the case you won't even need any laws?

For example, if I get on a bus should I breathalise the driver everytime just in case one time he is drunk and crashes?  Am I therefore equally responsible because I trusted the bus-driver and he abused that trust?

You just keep using false analogies - once you get inside a bus and let the other drive, you have no control over the vehicle. But while having consented to sex, you can still stop before unprotected sex is about to happen. And if you don't see the difference, I don't really see the point of this "discussion" as many of us have presented you with the distinctions, while all you offer is nothing but this nonsensual analogizing.
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline komnaes

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,893

You might be knowledgeable Matty, but youíll never truly be liked or loved. Bullies never are.


He's liked and loved alright, by many,.. just saying.
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline TabooPrincess

  • Member
  • Posts: 279
So if the majority of your country decides to put to you and all other HIVers in camp and lock you up you'd happily submit? It's called argumentum ad populm.

Do you even read what others' arguments? When you walk down the street, you can't expect and don't consent to be stabbed or veer down. But when you consent to have unprotected sex, you can both expect and consent to all likely consequences, including STD.

You do know that if that is the case you won't even need any laws?

You just keep using false analogies - once you get inside a bus and let the other drive, you have no control over the vehicle. But while having consented to sex, you can still stop before unprotected sex is about to happen. And if you don't see the difference, I don't really see the point of this "discussion" as many of us have presented you with the distinctions, while all you offer is nothing but this nonsensual analogizing.

I guess it's getting into semantics really.  I think I'll leve this topic alone now and just summarise how I feel.  I don't think it's black and white enough to say that all parties have equal responsibility and I'm not going to change my mind about that.  As Snow and Sweet also pointed out there are some situations when people are deceived and in these cases I firmly believe that most of the responsibility lies with the person who is hiv positive to protect the other and not lie to them.

Had I had the full and honest facts in my own situation then I would not be here on this forum today.  You cannot expect a woman to use a condom throughout her entire relationship 'just in case' she is being lied to, cheated on or deceived.  It's not realistic and like I said, we would see a rapid decline in the species as there would be no pregnancies.  And the same for men too.
09/ 2008 - Seroconversion
11/2008 - Tested pos, cd4 640 vl 25400
12/2008 - cd4 794 vl 27798, 35%
03/2009 - cd4 844 vl 68846, 35%
06/2009 - cd4 476 vl 49151, 33% (pregnancy confirmed)
08/2009 - cd4 464 vl 54662, 32%
Started meds for pregnancy (Kaletra, AZT, Viread)
09/2009 - cd4 841 vl 3213, 42%
10/2009 - cd4 860 vl 1088, 41%
11/2009 - cd4 771 vl 563, 38%
12/2009 - cd4 885 vl 151 42%
Discontinued meds after baby born
02/2010 - cd4 841 vl 63781, 38%
05/2010 - cd4 1080 vl 113000, 39%
08/2010 - cd4 770 vl 109242
12/2010 - cd4 642 vl 111000, 34%
06/2011 - cd4 450 vl 222000, 33%
11/2011 - cd4 419 vl 212000, 24%
03/2012 - cd4 280 vl 118000, 26% (repeated Cd4 at 360)
05/2012 -cd4 360 vl 99,190
10/2012 Atripla, cd4 690, vl 80
12/2012 Darunavir, norvir, truvada, Cd4 680, vl u/d
07/2013 cd4 750,ud

Offline komnaes

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,893
No, it has not declined into semantics. You and many continue to confuse or willingly refuse to address our case of rejecting criminal responsibility, equating it to a wholesale rejection of any sort of responsibility, be it "social" or "moral" as you care to add in front of the word.

Deadly STDs have accompanied humanity since the dawn of civilization and yet we continue to procreate. We constantly talk about a responsibility to stop the virus with us; what we're against is a highly stigmatized criminalization of this responsibility because it serves no purpose at all but a further victimization of the infected, you included.

If you fail to think of any good line of reasoning to rebuke our arguments, just admit it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 04:14:04 AM by komnaes »
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

 


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