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Author Topic: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence  (Read 2963 times)

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Offline red_Dragon888

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Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« on: May 20, 2010, 05:14:32 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/world/africa/21malawi.html

Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
By BARRY BEARAK
Published: May 20, 2010
 
JOHANNESBURG ? Two gay men in Malawi, convicted earlier this week of unnatural acts and gross indecency, were sentenced Thursday to the maximum penalty allowed by law, 14 years of hard labor in prison.

The harsh sentence was immediately deplored by human rights groups around the world, but Magistrate Nyakwawa Usiwa Usiwa, in reading his judgment, seemed confident of his righteousness. He said he was especially offended that the two lovers celebrated their relationship in public with an engagement party.

?I do not believe Malawi is ready at this point in time to see its sons getting married to other sons, or cohabitating, or conducting engagement ceremonies,? the magistrate said. ?Malawi is not ready to smile at her daughters marrying each other. Let posterity judge this judgment.?

The couple ? Tiwonge Chimbalanga, 33, and Steven Monjeza, 26 ? remained still as they heard the sentence, though Mr. Monjeza was seen weeping after the two were handcuffed and led away.

As with earlier court appearances in the case, a sizeable crowd gathered outside, mostly to ridicule the men and rejoice at the spectacle.

Homosexuality is regarded as detestable by most Malawians, an impoverished nation of 14 million in southern Africa. Gays and lesbians do not dare demonstrate their affections in public.

This custom of concealment is what made the engagement party ? called a chinkhoswe in Chichean ? held at a lodge in Blantyre, the nation?s largest city, so exceptional. A newspaper reported the event on its front page, and two days later, on Dec. 28, the couple was arrested. They were refused bail.

?I cannot imagine more aggravated sodomy than where perpetrators go on to seek heroism without any remorse, in public with a chinkhoswe ceremony,? the magistrate said Thursday in small, overcrowded courtroom in Blantyre.

But the two have denied that any heroics were intended. Their actions were not planned as any assertion of gay rights, they said. They were simply na?ve about the possible repercussions.

?I just wanted people to know we were in love,? said Mr. Chimbalanga in an interview earlier this year. He said he considered himself a woman and had been eager to dress as a bride.

Their conviction is likely to be appealed, though their lawyer, Maurya Msuku, said he would have to confer with his clients to make a decision.

Several human rights activists not only encouraged such an appeal but asked for widespread protests around the world. ?We are calling for our government in South Africa to denounce what was done and call on the Malawian government to quash the court?s decision,? said Mark Heywood, the director of the Johannesburg-based AIDS Law Project.

Michel Sidibe, the executive director of Unaids, the United Nations AIDS agency, said, ?We?re calling strongly for the government to revisit this issue as a matter of dignity and human rights.?

He added that Malawi was only one of 80 countries with ?homophobic laws,? and said that even before the verdict, he had planned to go to Malawi next week, where ?I will use the opportunity to raise the issue with the president.?

Earlier this week, the State Department spokesman, Philip J. Crowley, said at a press briefing that the United States government was ?deeply disappointed? with the Malawi verdict and called for ?the decriminalization of sexual orientation and gender identity? in Malawi and elsewhere.

Some 40 percent of Malawi?s budget comes from foreign aid, but Lekford Thotho, the minister of information and civic affairs, insisted the government would not be cowed by the indignation of donors.

?You must understand the culture and traditions of Malawi, and what these two did is taboo,? he said.

The nation?s clergy have been united in condemning the gay couple. ?God calls homosexuality an abomination, which is greater than a simple sin,? the Rev. Felix Zalimba, pastor of the All for Jesus Church in Blantyre, said Thursday.

He said church and state were aligned in agreement: ?These two must repent and ask God?s forgiveness. Otherwise, they will surely go to hell.?


Caroline Somanje contributed reporting from Blantyre
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Offline GNYC09

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 06:03:00 PM »
this is a harsh sentence.  I bet rapists get less time.  I searched the Amnesty Int'l site to see if there was a "Take Action" button but nothing... :-[

Offline mecch

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 06:21:58 PM »
They should be broke out of jail and get a new life in some country that recognises gay partnerships.  Wishful thinking I guess.   :(
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Offline bmancanfly

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 06:32:23 PM »
I can think of a way to change things.

"The United States has a substantial foreign assistance program in Malawi. The U.S. Government provided approximately $115 million in development assistance to Malawi in FY 2009"

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/7231.htm

I sent an email to my congressmen.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 07:55:45 PM by bmancanfly »
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Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 07:12:12 PM »
Hey guys I know where we can find 100+ million in adap ahortfall funds...no serioualy.

My favorite part was the guy who said an abomination was worse than a sin.  I'm not real religion savvy but I'm pretty sure all "sins" are equal in the eyes of thelord.  Isn't that taught in like Bible 101?

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 07:23:10 PM »
Hey guys I know where we can find 100+ million in adap ahortfall funds...no serioualy.

My favorite part was the guy who said an abomination was worse than a sin.  I'm not real religion savvy but I'm pretty sure all "sins" are equal in the eyes of thelord.  Isn't that taught in like Bible 101?

Heh. The naivete of the unchurched is so quaint.

There most certainly is a hierachy of sin and sodomy is pretty much at the top of the list. For reasons known only to the Lord (and Pat Robertson) it's worse than murder, theft and voting Democrat.

Why it's even worse than abortion. Check your Old Testament. You'll see that our Heavenly Father sanctioned the mass murder of unborn babies on more than one occasion. And Jesus was welcomed into this sinful world by the Massacre of the Innocents.

But the butt-sex has always been utterly and completely proscribed.

Praise His Holy Name. :)

MtD

Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 07:35:37 PM »
I know where we can find 100+ million in adap shortfall funds
from your keyboard to the Senate's ears  ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


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Offline john33

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 07:36:03 PM »
i'm with Trey on this one,
 i always thought the same and was tought that a little white lie is as bad as murder.

Although taking it up the poop shute has always horrified people, even if the refernces in the origianl greek were refering to beastiality

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2010, 12:17:55 AM »
I can think of a way to change things.

"The United States has a substantial foreign assistance program in Malawi. The U.S. Government provided approximately $115 million in development assistance to Malawi in FY 2009"

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/7231.htm

I sent an email to my congressmen.

Hey guys I know where we can find 100+ million in adap ahortfall funds...no serioualy.

from your keyboard to the Senate's ears  ;)

Brilliant. It's totally appropriate to punish one of the poorest nations on Earth using foreign aid funds.

It doesn't matter that such a selfish, mean spirited gesture will most likely have no meaningful effect on gay law reform in that blighted country. It will do nothing to free those two wretched fellows who were sent down by that egregious magistrate.

What cutting foreign assistance off will do is deny millions of Malawian access to food, vital medications and other basic necessities of life. More than 60% of the Malawian population live below the poverty line.

And I'm not talking "two litres of coke and a broadband internet connexion" poverty either.

I'm talking real, grinding live-in-shit less than one meal per day poverty.

I suppose it's not worth mentioning that Malawi has an AIDS crisis the likes of which we in the developed world can't begin to appreciate. AIDS is the leading cause of death amongst Malawian adults. Around 14% of the population is HIV positive and the average life expectancy is 43 years.

No, those things don't matter. What matters is that you three are able to beat your chests and peddle racist cannards instead of reasoned arguments.


MtD

Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2010, 12:46:30 AM »
What matters is that you three are able to beat your chests and peddle racist cannards instead of reasoned arguments.
I think that America should supply appropriate health care to it's own citizens first, before trying to save a world that obviously doesn't want to be saved. Malawi is obviously content to put the queers to death (no one there seems to worried about this injustice according to that article) and Uganda is happy buying $300 million dollars worth of Russian war aircraft rather than saving it's own citizens. Why should America continue it's futile attempts to save the world when it isn't even supplying it's own citizens the appropriate meds to avoid death? (by the way the ADAP crisis is worsening; just wait until the June ADAP watch numbers on the waiting lists come out). America isn't able and shouldn't have to be the policeman or savior to the world; instead it needs to get it's own house in order. Charity begins at home.

Although I have no idea how spending American money on Americans and not on Malawians is racist; it seems you're pretty liberal there with wanting to spend another nation's money. If you're so worried that America isn't supplying more than 88% of the AIDS help to Uganda and however much to Malawi (I don't know the figures for Malawi), then I suggest you take up the gauntlet to get Australia to pony up more funds to save the world. Then while you'll be busy getting your own nation to solve the world's problems,  I'll be busy at another rally later this month trying to force my own nation to pony up the funds to keep my fellow South Carolinians from dying.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2010, 01:01:43 AM »
instead of reasoned arguments.
So the notion of "withholding funds to force another nation to change" is not a reasoned argument?
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2010, 01:05:39 AM »
I think that America should supply appropriate health care to it's own citizens first, before trying to save a world that obviously doesn't want to be saved. Malawi is obviously content to put the queers to death (no one there seems to worried about this injustice according to that article) and Uganda is happy buying $300 million dollars worth of Russian war aircraft rather than saving it's own citizens. Why should America continue it's futile attempts to save the world when it isn't even supplying it's own citizens the appropriate meds to avoid death? (by the way the ADAP crisis is worsening; just wait until the June ADAP watch numbers on the waiting lists come out). America isn't able and shouldn't have to be the policeman or savior to the world; instead it needs to get it's own house in order. Charity begins at home.

Although I have no idea how spending American money on Americans and not on Malawians is racist; it seems you're pretty liberal there with wanting to spend another nation's money. If you're so worried that America isn't supplying more than 88% of the AIDS help to Uganda and however much to Malawi (I don't know the figures for Malawi), then I suggest you take up the gauntlet to get Australia to pony up more funds to save the world. Then while you'll be busy getting your own nation to solve the world's problems,  I'll be busy at another rally later this month trying to force my own nation to pony up the funds to keep my fellow South Carolinians from dying.

Australia makes susbtantial contributions in foreign assistance commensurate to our not inconsiderable wealth. For the record I believe we can and must do more, not just in terms of combating the global AIDS pandemic, but generally.

Moreover, I'll wager a pound to a pinch of shit that I've done more in terms of effective political action in the last 6 months on this issue than you've done in your entire adult life.

Don't think that trotting out the "charity begins at home" chestnut in anyway covers up the malignancy of suggesting that it's right and proper for the US or any other wealthy indulgent nation (Australia included) to cut off essential aid to a bitterly impoverished nation like Malawi.

That sort of braindead isolationist rubbish is always the excuse offered when rich people want wriggle out of their obligations to the poor.

The unwillingness of US authorities to fund properly essential domestic AIDS programmes has nothing to do with foreign aid expenditure. If you were properly poltically engaged, you'd realise that.

So the notion of "withholding funds to force another nation to change" is not a reasoned argument?

No it isn't. It's imperialist douchebaggery and is entirely ineffective.

MtD

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2010, 01:39:20 AM »

The unwillingness of US authorities to fund properly essential domestic AIDS programmes has nothing to do with foreign aid expenditure. If you were properly poltically engaged, you'd realise that.

Actually it seems to me a handful of states that aren't pulling their weight with the "state" portion of the federal/state Ryan White program -- you know, like how South Carolina is too busy tracking down the latest mistress of the governor while Pennsylvania just recently expanded the scope of their ADAP drug formulary.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2010, 01:44:53 AM »
Actually it seems to me a handful of states that aren't pulling their weight with the "state" portion of the federal/state Ryan White program -- you know, like how South Carolina is too busy tracking down the latest mistress of the governor while Pennsylvania just recently expanded the scope of their ADAP drug formulary.

So it could that programmes in certain states aren't inadequately funded because the money is being sent to those ungrateful fuckers in the third world but because of political indifference and prejudice in the state capitol?

Well I'll be.

MtD

Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2010, 03:07:36 AM »
I know, I know, you're going to look at this post and say that's too long to read (tl;dr); but that's the easy, illiterate way out by saying I don't what to read the research you're presenting; but here goes anyway.

That leaves a plan to increase Australia's aid spending in far-off Africa looking a little odd. Bob McMullan, who holds the aid portfolio, outlined the case in a speech last week, claiming a "moral obligation" to be engaged in what is a continent of great need. But he also admitted Australia's contribution to Africa is modest ? $100 million each year out of a total of more than $40 billion from the rest of the world. Even after the planned increase, Australia's contribution will remain marginal.
"For Australia foreign aid, like charity, begins close to home"
August 18, 2008

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/for-australia-foreign-aid-like-charity-begins-close-to-home-20080817-3x16.html?page=-1

it seems you better get on the stick with all your high-falutin' political action then MtD, cause your country's contribution to the problems of the world is considered "marginal".

Since I mentioned another African nation too, let's see what America gives to that country

The US is to give Uganda $246m in aid to revive health, agriculture and trade, it was announced this weekend.
Monday 26 October 2009

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katine/2009/oct/26/us-aid-to-uganda
In 2009, Uganda received nearly $300 million from the U.S. through PEPFAR for HIV prevention, care and treatment, AFP reports
http://globalhealth.kff.org/Daily-Reports/2010/February/04/GH-020410-Uganda-AntiGay-Bill.aspx?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+kff%2Fkdghpr+(Kaiser+Daily+Global+Health+Policy+Report)

over half a billion to just one country for all-around aid, with half the money directly tied to HIV

How about in Malawi, since that's the topic of discussion.

USAID has a substantial program in Malawi providing about $35 million annually in development assistance.
The United States is the largest contributor to the World Food Program (WFP) in Malawi, providing over $100 million in food and other emergency assistance through WFP since early 2002. 
The primary focus was on the Millennium Challenge Corporation (MCC) Threshold Country Program development process in Malawi, which resulted in a $20.9 million award to Malawi to fight corruption and increase fiscal responsibility.

http://lilongwe.usembassy.gov/offices/dedartments.html
Through the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), Malawi in fiscal year 2008 received $17.06 million for essential HIV/AIDS programs and services. USAID?s programs in Malawi are implemented under the U.S. President?s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (Emergency Plan/PEPFAR). http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaid.gov%2Four_work%2Fglobal_health%2Faids%2FCountries%2Fafrica%2Fmalawi.html&rct=j&q=us+aid+to+malawi+hiv&ei=kSP2S4rEIov68AaPsv3PCA&usg=AFQjCNHGKiD6Hn7h9mLPkwusRK5qd75i6w
The United States has a substantial foreign assistance program in Malawi. The U.S. Government provided approximately $115 million in development assistance to Malawi in FY 2009 under USAID's Country Strategic Plan (CSP).
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/7231.htm

Over a quarter of a billion to this second country, with $17+ million earmarked for HIV

Important bilateral donors, in addition to the U.S., include Canada, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and the United Kingdom. Multilateral donors include the World Bank, the IMF, the European Union, the African Development Bank, and United Nations organizations.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/7231.htm

Hmmm. Australia isn't on the list, although I did find this report of a paltry $2 million contribution.

Australia will provide $2 million in emergency relief to support the United Nations emergency response to the crippling food crisis in Malawi
http://www.ausaid.gov.au/media/release.cfm?BC=Media&ID=7491_7834_3879_2414_3020

(My research on Australia's foreign aid shows that most contributions go to Indonesian/Pacific countries)

The Emergency Plan is the largest commitment ever by any nation for an international health initiative dedicated to a single disease. To date, the U.S. has committed $18.8 billion to the fight against the global HIV/AIDS pandemic, exceeding its original commitment of $15 billion over five years.Reauthorized on July 30, 2008, the U.S. is continuing its commitment to global AIDS in the amount of $39 billion for HIV/AIDS bilateral programs and contributions to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. Working in partnership with host nations, the initiative will support antiretroviral treatment for at least 3 million people, prevention of 12 million new HIV infections, and care and support for 12 million people, including 5 million orphans and vulnerable children
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaid.gov%2Four_work%2Fglobal_health%2Faids%2FCountries%2Fafrica%2Fmalawi.html&rct=j&q=us+aid+to+malawi+hiv&ei=kSP2S4rEIov68AaPsv3PCA&usg=AFQjCNHGKiD6Hn7h9mLPkwusRK5qd75i6w

Well lookie there. American has actually exceeded it's commitment to helping the world and yet some people still think it should be more. Maybe we should give more and maybe we shouldn't. I just know that right now, we have plenty of problems within our own borders that need to be fixed, and plenty of other nations should increase their donations and fix their own policies before criticizing American policies and largesse.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2010, 03:08:44 AM »
Actually it seems to me a handful of states that aren't pulling their weight with the "state" portion of the federal/state Ryan White program
Part of me thinks that's just "Yankee talk" that doesn't understand the poverty problems in the South; and part of me agrees that it is partially fiscal irresponsibility.

So what's the solution? I've been writing, calling, emailing legislators, engaging friends, family, and strangers into doing the same asking for more fiscal responsibility plus increased spending in areas concerning HIV (SC also has a rising amount of new infections as a secondary wave of this pandemic sweeps through the mainly rural, poor and black populations of a lesser-developed and lesser-populated state). Do we just quit asking for more funding, and shifts of the budget money, and allow HIV+ persons to go without meds and die? Or do we consider that some money that is sent to other nations (nations that mis-spend their own money, nations that squander their own national resources and funds) could stay within our own borders and at least temporarily correct issues here until we can persuade legislators to create better budgets that resolve these issues? None of these ways is really the right way, but the situation now is of ever-increasing waiting lists and people in America going without meds.

Personally, I'll admit that I am a bit of an isolationist these days. America has so many internal problems that need to be corrected that I just don't see how much longer we can play the world's policeman and the world's saviour while our own house is falling down around our heads.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2010, 03:24:05 AM »
Jesus. No wonder it took you an hour and a half to post. Once again you've resorted to posting a garbled wall of text in a limp attempt to drown out your opposition.

Also, impressive linkage skills there Mr Compoota Toota.

No one is questioning the contribution that the USA makes in overseas aid, nor am I necessarily holding up Australia as an exemplar on the issue.

What I am criticising is the spiteful suggestion that Malawi be denied aid because of the abuse of human rights outlined in the OP. It won't achieve the aim you seem to think it will.

No gays will be liberated but plenty of poor black people will starve.

So what's the solution? I've been writing, calling, emailing legislators, engaging friends, family, and strangers into doing the same asking for more fiscal responsibility plus increased spending in areas concerning HIV (SC also has a rising amount of new infections as a secondary wave of this pandemic sweeps through the mainly rural, poor and black populations of a lesser-developed and lesser-populated state). Do we just quit asking for more funding, and shifts of the budget money, and allow HIV+ persons to go without meds and die? Or do we consider that some money that is sent to other nations (nations that mis-spend their own money, nations that squander their own national resources and funds) could stay within our own borders and at least temporarily correct issues here until we can persuade legislators to create better budgets that resolve these issues? None of these ways is really the right way, but the situation now is of ever-increasing waiting lists and people in America going without meds.

Personally, I'll admit that I am a bit of an isolationist these days. America has so many internal problems that need to be corrected that I just don't see how much longer we can play the world's policeman and the world's saviour while our own house is falling down around our heads.

Fucking bingo. This isn't really about gay rights for you. This is about you resenting the US sending resources overseas.

MtD

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2010, 07:52:55 AM »
Part of me thinks that's just "Yankee talk" that doesn't understand the poverty problems in the South; and part of me agrees that it is partially fiscal irresponsibility.

So what's the solution? I've been writing, calling, emailing legislators, engaging friends, family, and strangers into doing the same asking for more fiscal responsibility plus increased spending in areas concerning HIV (SC also has a rising amount of new infections as a secondary wave of this pandemic sweeps through the mainly rural, poor and black populations of a lesser-developed and lesser-populated state). Do we just quit asking for more funding, and shifts of the budget money, and allow HIV+ persons to go without meds and die? Or do we consider that some money that is sent to other nations (nations that mis-spend their own money, nations that squander their own national resources and funds) could stay within our own borders and at least temporarily correct issues here until we can persuade legislators to create better budgets that resolve these issues? None of these ways is really the right way, but the situation now is of ever-increasing waiting lists and people in America going without meds.

Personally, I'll admit that I am a bit of an isolationist these days. America has so many internal problems that need to be corrected that I just don't see how much longer we can play the world's policeman and the world's saviour while our own house is falling down around our heads.

Let me get this straight. You want more fiscal responsibility for everyone one else but you. Where exactly would you have the far right legislature of the Palmetto State cut the budget? Food stamps? Education? Where exactly would you have them balance their budget in order to increase funding for HIV? Explain your idea of fiscal responsibility. If you didn't have AIDS I have no doubt where you would suggest they adapt "fiscal responsibility."

Offline mecch

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2010, 08:18:36 AM »
If you didn't have AIDS I have no doubt where you would suggest they adapt "fiscal responsibility."

This is really offensive to everyone here, and particularly insulting to Leatherman cause you presume that he would be an anti-HIV bigot if he were negative.
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2010, 08:21:40 AM »
This is really offensive to everyone here, and particularly insulting to Leatherman cause you presume that he would be an anti-HIV bigot if he were negative.

You don't speak for everyone.

MtD

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2010, 08:25:20 AM »
This is really offensive to everyone here, and particularly insulting to Leatherman cause you presume that he would be an anti-HIV bigot if he were negative.

I don't care what you think. If you've followed his posting history you might "presume" something different yourself comrade.

Offline bmancanfly

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 10:30:37 AM »
Brilliant. It's totally appropriate to punish one of the poorest nations on Earth using foreign aid funds.

It doesn't matter that such a selfish, mean spirited gesture will most likely have no meaningful effect on gay law reform in that blighted country. It will do nothing to free those two wretched fellows who were sent down by that egregious magistrate.

What cutting foreign assistance off will do is deny millions of Malawian access to food, vital medications and other basic necessities of life. More than 60% of the Malawian population live below the poverty line.

And I'm not talking "two litres of coke and a broadband internet connexion" poverty either.

I'm talking real, grinding live-in-shit less than one meal per day poverty.

I suppose it's not worth mentioning that Malawi has an AIDS crisis the likes of which we in the developed world can't begin to appreciate. AIDS is the leading cause of death amongst Malawian adults. Around 14% of the population is HIV positive and the average life expectancy is 43 years.

No, those things don't matter. What matters is that you three are able to beat your chests and peddle racist cannards instead of reasoned arguments.


MtD

Reasoned argument,  really?

Maybe you can come down from your self-righteous high horse for a minute and show me where I said we should cut off aid to Malawi.  Hmm, can't find it.  

I was merely indicating that a donor country that gives $115 million dollars to a recipient country has certain political leverage over that recipient country.  Nothing more, nothing less.  To say that the US should hand out hundreds of millions of dollars, to any country, with no strings attached is absurd.  I think one of those strings should be that you can't put people in jail for no other reason than they are gay .

But you're to busy building up a strawman argument so you can trot out the racist card, which has nothing to do with this.

Not to mention that you kinda contradict yourself in two consecutive posts here;


Australia makes susbtantial contributions in foreign assistance commensurate to our not inconsiderable wealth.

MtD

and here


 nor am I necessarily holding up Australia as an exemplar on the issue.


MtD


Not to mention that the first statement is false and that Australia tremendously underfunds the global relief effort in Africa as a percentage of GDP as shown here (see page 10)


http://www.kff.org/hivaids/upload/7347-052.pdf


You never seem to miss an opportunity to vociferously criticize the US about it's domestic or foreign spending but never seem to generate the same enthusiasm for your countries short comings - if you're even aware of them.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 10:58:50 AM by bmancanfly »
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 10:45:47 AM »
First, even though I'm sure someone will eventually toss out another personal attack and call this all "passive-aggressive", let me offer my apologies to RedDragon about how far OT this thread seems to be going with the various personal attacks. While I think the real issue here is the despicable attitude of the Malawians toward their own people, I never expected the suggestion of withholding aid to a gov't to change it's actions and policies towards it's people to be such a fire-starter (as that tactic has been used by many countries for many years) or for the discussion to so greatly diverge from even discussing the pros and cons of that strategy. I guess just too many people here like to bicker rather than hold honest discussions about policies and solutions.

with that being said, since I've been flamed in public, let me reply in public  :D
No gays will be liberated but plenty of poor black people will starve.
once again YOU bring up the issue of race. I believe maybe it's YOU having some racial issues here.
Wheneven I've thought of them, I've always thought of Malawians as just people, you know, other humans. You obviously keep thinking about their racial ethnicity. If anything I'm a "nationalist" rather than a "racist".

Jesus. No wonder it took you an hour and a half to post. Once again you've resorted to posting a garbled wall of text in a limp attempt to drown out your opposition.
Just because I think out my positions and replies rather than throw out meaningless one-liners and quips that don't add to the disucssion, like you and others here frequently do, is no reason for you to get testy and insult the way I post. If some people around here would actually try to discuss a topic, rather than twist every single word someone typed - but more about the "fiscal responsibility" issue in a moment - then I wouldn't have to post such long diatribes :D with references and link sto establish that we're talking on the same playing field. Did you read through my "garbled wall of text" (as you called it) or just skip it because it would take too much effort to read it? :D You were bitching about America's monetary contributions to world, and I pulled up some facts and figures to show that you were correct. Other wealthy nations obviously do need to pony up. Say if Britian, Spain, (just as examples, I have not researched their contributions. I am just using them as stand-ins for any other countries) and your own nation were contributing the billions like America, the people in Africa would be rolling in money, HIV meds, diamonds, and jet warcraft.

I just don't understand how it's so darn wrong of me to think we (meaning Americans. I really could care less how some foreigner thinks American tax dollars ought to be spent. Worry about how your own nation spends or doesn't spend.) should retain a couple of million dollars of our own tax money to fix the US ADAP crisis - which is happening in multiple states, by the way Philly, not just my "far right" state of SC. Those states (listed below) didn't "chase down a mistress", so what do you think their fiscal problems are related to? I'm sure people living in those states would love to hear your simplistic views of their budget problems too, so that they could easily be resolved. (sigh. again with the quips that offer no solutions, just sarcasm)

ADAPs with Waiting Lists (1,143 individuals, as of May 20, 2010)
Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kentucky, Montana, North Carolina, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, Wyoming
ADAPs with Other Cost-containment Strategies
Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Missouri,North Dakota, Washington, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Oregon


This is about you resenting the US sending resources overseas.
Hell yes. If people in SC are going to die again, die like both my partners died from being untreated, because they didn't get the meds to fight off HIV, then yes I resent the funds being spent elsewhere - whether it's overseas, on road construction, or on military ventures.

Where exactly would you have the far right legislature of the Palmetto State cut the budget? Food stamps? Education? Where exactly would you have them balance their budget in order to increase funding for HIV?
you picked some nice hot button areas there. How about roads, parks, etc. instead? Some department that wouldn't cause someone to die from lack of food, or meds, or cause someone to under-educated and unable to care for themselves. (just more useless OT quips from the peanut gallery)

If you didn't have AIDS I have no doubt where you would suggest they adapt "fiscal responsibility."
What?  ??? Mecch may have caught that but I didn't as I grew up a good conservate Republican most of my life, and live very frugally myself on the ss disability for which I worked many years and paid in the system. I believe the federal gov't and ALL state governments could be much better on fiscal responsibility and balancing their budgets. As I suggested, there are plenty of non-essentials in any state or federal budget that could be cut. Like Matty's bigotry showing as he brings up the race issue, maybe some sort of your own bigotry is showing through there with whatever it is your implying.

I don't care what you think. If you've followed his posting history you might "presume" something different yourself comrade.
Since you've resorted to a type of personal attack there by trying to imply something (similarly to Matty's veiled taunt of implying that me and the other posters were like the 3 stooges), let me make a similar comment back your posting history. you really never do have a damn nice thing to say in the forums do you? I've always heard that the people that bitch all the time, never offering any solutions, are part of the problem. I suggest people read through your past posts to see the petty, mean-spirited quips you post. Hardly ever do you type one encouraging word to anyone.

goodness! I'm beginning to think that maybe using that ignore button might not be that bad of an idea after all. ;) :D
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 11:04:34 AM »
I know, I know, you're going to look at this post and say that's too long to read (tl;dr); but that's the easy, illiterate way out by saying I don't what to read the research you're presenting; but here goes anyway.

No, not really.  You need to learn how to make your point in a less erratic manner.  Almost all of your posts in various and sundry threads as of late have been tl;dr.

Quote
Part of me thinks that's just "Yankee talk" that doesn't understand the poverty problems in the South;

What was that you just said about passive aggressive personal attacks, darling?  I'd really hate to call you out publicly on rank hypocrisy issues.

Also, Miss P was not born nor raised in the Northeast, she's a daughter of the Confederacy, and schooled mere blocks from the house Jefferson Davis resided in during the Civil War.  Want to try all of that again for us?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 11:08:55 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2010, 11:26:32 AM »
No, not really.  You need to learn how to make your point in a less erratic manner.  Almost all of your posts in various and sundry threads as of late have been tl;dr.
"as of late" only? :D lordy, I've been typing this way since nearly get-go. :D ;D (and you know not only do I love my long convulted posts; but my emoticons too ;) ) As I explained, I have to try to close every loophole, every simple word, every thought that someone would rather pick on than actually discussing the issue at hand.

I mean this convo got of the point of discussing SC fiscal responsiblity and the governor's mistress. None of which I originally brought up I should point out. I leave it to others to bring in the strawmen. It just sucks the fun out of posting here when some people enter a thread to do nothing but flame a poster and derail a thread rather than tackle the issue.

Oh yeah, this thread is supposed to be about Malawi jailing the queers anyway.  :D ;D

I'd really hate to call you out publicly on rank hypocrisy issues.
feel free to send me a PM to discuss all my hypocritical views, please. This is not the thread for that, nor is starting a thread to publicly attack a member appropriate; but you can surely show me your wit in a private PM.

Also, Miss P was not born nor raised in the Northeast, she's a daughter of the Confederacy, and schooled mere blocks from the house Jefferson Davis resided in during the Civil War.
ah, then you should understand, especially after your years of living with the Northerners, as I did, that the North has never understood some of the drastic differences in the two regions. heaven knows I'm suffering a bit of the reverse culture shock that I experienced moving North now that I've moved back South after so many years.

When I was in the North I was surprised that so many wondered why so many people stayed behind in Louisana when Katrina hit. In part, it was a poverty issue. Just like this gulf oil spill will only again harm more Southern people already afflicted with deep poverty over many years. Just in case you've forgotten, here's a wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita_(nominal) that shows SC to be 44th on the list of GDP ranking. (LA is 42).

(edited to try to space things better to make things more "readable")
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 11:30:05 AM by leatherman »
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2010, 11:31:46 AM »
What you don't like about me is that when necessary I am forced to point out your rank hypocrisy. You are very comfortable using right wing talking points when you decry your tax dollars (which you don't pay) going to "breeders" or Hispanics. The same talking points the right uses when they say they don't want their tax dollars going to anything having to do with HIV. I'll get right to the point, IMHO and by your own posting history I think you're a racist. Plain and simple.

Oh and one other "talking point" you constantly use is "I paid into the system." Yes you did. However, the amount you paid into MEDFICA comes no where close to the cost of your treatment over the years. Whether you like it or not your disability is being paid for by the taxpayers that are working now. I have no problem with that, but you should remember that when you bash groups of people you don't like for spending your illusionary tax dollars.

I think it's abhorrent that you use the death of your last lover to try and prove your point. By your own admission he hadn't even been tested for HIV when he became ill. Shameless.


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« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 11:33:52 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2010, 11:48:00 AM »
Not that I currently pay any taxes, but I resent the implication that northern states should subsidize Southern states any more than they currently do.  Northeastern states already pay out more to the federal government than we receive back by a gross margin, while Southern states continue to be culturally and fiscally regressive.  The elite class in Southern states, all conservative (not to mention white), insist on low state tax rates, while the Northeast is responsible with their rates -- that's the bottom line issue, and when the North can stipulate that the South raise their tax rates to appropriate levels then we can talk, but we both know that will never happen because Southerners cling to this crackpot idea that they're actually sovereign and think they can secede from the Union (still fighting that one I guess 150 years later no less).

If you want your HIV programs funded adequately stomping around in Columbia won't do much until you elect politicians that will address the fact that your state tax rate is too low.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Cliff

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2010, 11:51:12 AM »
Their arrest and conviction is shameful and am glad it's getting worldwide attention.  Hopefully governments will add some pressure to Malawi to get the conviction overturned and the laws changed.  But this country, nor the region, isn't alone in their open bigotry, condemnation and hostility of homosexuality.

I'm not sure why anyone would propose leveraging aid to get them released.  Leveraging the lives of a significant portion of a population, to get action from the government, is not an appropriate response and likely to be counterproductive (see North Korea or Zimbabwe).

ADAP and foreign aid aren't linked.  The US government could fully fund both if it wanted to.  It certainly had deep pockets when it came to bailing out the banks and homeowners.  If foreign aid was pulled, not a penny more would go towards ADAP, it would be spent on other "priorities".

Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2010, 11:55:20 AM »
You are very comfortable using right wing talking points when you decry your tax dollars (which you don't pay) going to "breeders" or Hispanics. The same talking points the right uses when they say they don't want their tax dollars going to anything having to do with HIV. I'll get right to the point, IMHO and by your own posting history I think you're a racist. Plain and simple.
"breeders"? Ah yes. I am troubled that tax dollars would go to support a woman who of her own choosing, without the proper means to support her children, would be so brass as to expect America to pay for not 1 child but 8 children. And Hispanics. I don't think I've ever mentioned them. But as many Americans believe, I do think that 12 million illegal aliens in my country counts as an invasion and our tax dollars don't need to provide them with education, food stamps, other social services until all of our own legal citizens have those benefits. Others may want to care for the whole world, a noble sentiment; but funds are not unlimited.

Oh and one other "talking point" you constantly use is "I paid into the system." Yes you did. However, the amount you paid into MEDFICA comes no where close to the cost of your treatment over the years. Whether you like it or not your disability is being paid for by the taxpayers that are working now.
so because I was part of the system, but now am not actively part of the system, then I've lost all rights to complain about the system or comment on how the system is run? You better tell that to all the senior citizens no longer paying into the system that you don't think their voices should count anymore.

I think it's abhorrent that you use the death of your last lover to prove your point. By your own admission he hadn't even been tested for HIV we he became ill. Shameless.
But that's exactly my point. Untested and/or untreated HIV ends in an AIDS death. The foolishness, stupidity, and ignorance of myself, my (second) partner, and my doctor was simply inexcusable and I hold it up as an example for others to not be stupid and miss an opportunity to get tested and to get treated when there can be such dire and deathly consequences.

Whose life examples should I use then to make this point? Yours? Matty's? Philly's? As far as I know y'all don't have dead partners to speak of to make people understand the deadliness of untreated AIDS.

Just like my partner died from untreated AIDS, there is now a growing chance that other South Carolinians, who will go untreated due to the ADAP financial cuts, will die. This isn't a fantasy as 4 South Carolinians died in 2006 during the last SC ADAP budget crisis.

So if using my partner's situation so greatly offends you, then please help me discover the names of those SC folk (or the people from Kentucky that died that same year for the same reason) and even though I don't know them, I'll use them to explain, what shouldn't have to be explained to this group, that untreated HIV can cause deaths and something must be done soon in SC and other states to fix the ADAP issues.
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Offline Ann

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2010, 12:01:29 PM »
If this thread continues to veer off on an off-topic train wreck, well, I've got a padlock and I'm not afraid to use it.

Get back on topic - which isn't, by the way, fiscal responsibilities of any private citizen; American government at local, state or federal level; or any other country - or the thread will be locked. Simple as.

Ann
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2010, 12:03:26 PM »
Hopefully governments will add some pressure to Malawi to get the conviction overturned and the laws changed.
what kind of "pressure" should governments add then, since you don't think with holding funds an adequate venue? should the governments just ask nicely? or perhaps, as some are wont to do, bomb them?

I appreciate your comments against with holding funds; but what is another solution then? Granted sometimes plain words will have an effect; but if not, what then?

of course, from our standpoint, most of this conversation is nothing but hypothetical, as we have no control over what our nations "say" to other nations, much less how they spend the money we pay in taxes, or what methods they use to coerce other nations. ;)
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2010, 12:14:16 PM »
I don't see how pressuring the Malawian government into changing human rights can be considered remotely racist however, I did notice a pile on of sorts after Mikey made the following statement:

from your keyboard to the Senate's ears  ;)

Me thinks if leatherman never introduced the above comment the racist allegations would have never been mentioned, so this is definitely some personal issue crap.  

I would like to derail the topic even further though with my own personal issue- defense spending , namely the $680 billion spent last year and a projected $800+ billion this year to keep our great US the waring nation we have become.   Why are we spending this amount?   In my opinion it's nothing short of the US supporting programs that are nothing more than big business.

If we lowered our defense spending to a lower degree, say comparable to what China or UK spends (50-60 billion), we would have a lot of dollars to throw into programs both here and abroad, thus making everyone happy.

I think it's time to over-throw our government.  To hell with the Dems and Reps, lets storm the White House and paint the fucker black.  ::)  

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Offline Ann

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Re: Gay Couple in Malawi Receives Maximum Sentence
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2010, 12:16:25 PM »

I would like to derail the topic even further though ...



If this thread continues to veer off on an off-topic train wreck, well, I've got a padlock and I'm not afraid to use it.

Get back on topic - which isn't, by the way, fiscal responsibilities of any private citizen; American government at local, state or federal level; or any other country - or the thread will be locked. Simple as.

Ann

OK, that's it. This one's locked up.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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