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Author Topic: Arizona can go Fuck itself  (Read 7595 times)

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Offline jkinatl2

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline randym431

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 05:34:06 AM »
AZ was also the only state against creating the MLK holiday.
What is so sad is McCain supports this new law.
I guess when some reach the end of life in ones career,
the mind suffers Sarah Palin brain damage.
We will always have Nixon to thank for Watergate,
Bush to thank for the Iraq war, and McCain to thank
for Sarah Palin. And whats her name AZ gov to thank
for returning a state back to the Nazi era.
Id like to see her face if they passed a law to strip search every
state gov before they go home every night, cause we all know politicians
are thief's.
Lets just assume, as AZ now assumes with all Hispanics,
that she is a crook and has state silverware hidden up her dress (btw... she probably does).

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 08:40:15 AM »
I have not read this new law but I wonder how exactly they are going to enforce it and avoid racial profiling. If I visit Arizona, go for a bike ride and don't have my ID on me am I going to be hauled off for questioning? Somehow I don't think so.


Offline Jeff G

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 09:12:25 AM »
I have not read this new law but I wonder how exactly they are going to enforce it and avoid racial profiling. If I visit Arizona, go for a bike ride and don't have my ID on me am I going to be hauled off for questioning? Somehow I don't think so.



I was wondering the same thing . How do the people in charge of immigration issues do there job without racial profiling and is it such a hot button topic that people cant call it out for what it is . I'm a bleeding heart liberal and I just cant begin to form an opinion because of the complexity of immigration .

When 9-11 happend I was thinking if there is a core group responsible for terrorism we should focus on that group . That to me is racial profiling . I am not confusing immigration and terrorism , they are separate issues .

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 10:04:52 AM »
Well Jonathan, since I live here, many if not most of the citizenry here in the Southern part of the state are livid.  Mostly because the resulting economic boycott is going to do a world of hurt to the businesses in Tucson.  So many military contractors, and now that Tucson is the "Alternative Energy" capital of the Southwest; things are really shaping up to be tragic for the businesses of the state.  Fabulous, the state needs to be flushed politically anyway.  Look for Arizona to gravitate towards the "Blue" side very soon and in the next five years, I would expect a complete color change.  Personally, I'm leaving, I can't support this nightmare!
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 10:16:58 AM »
I guess it comes down to how badly do they want to end illegal immigration, granted my state doesn't border mexico, but we still have mexicans here.  Is there another better way to handle this?  I mean I don't know.  If I lived in Arizona I'd have my id ready to be shown so that being pulled over by the cops to check my papers doesn't take up more than a minute of my time, or less.  I would assume that AZ ids have magnetic strips like LA and MS do so that they can just run it and know within seconds if you're legal or not.  I don't fundamentally have a problem with them deporting illegal immigrants, but I do have an issue with them asking people to present id and if you are of hispanic descent you could be pulled over constantly.  However, if you're legal it's an inconvenience, if you're not legal then the law is working as intended.

I do get a little angry when people balk at any sort of law that does seek to deport illegal immigrants.  I understand that our country may be slightly better off than Mexico (lately who knows), but if all of our best minds were leaving our country in mass exodus to say Canada, our country wouldn't be getting any better either would it?  I can see both sides of the issue, but frankly the social network of our country is stretched pretty thinly as it is with Healthcare being the biggest issue affecting those of us on the forums and the more people we add to that burden for whatever reason the worse the issue becomes.  If we had plenty of excess resources to help out others I don't think anyone would have an issue with immigration being open, but that just isn't the way of the world.

Do I think this law is just?  Not really, and I do think it will be repealed.
Do I feel for the individuals who may be deported?  Of course, I'm not a heartless bastard.
Do I think it should come as a surprise to someone who is here illegally that they may be deported? No.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 10:50:30 AM »
I agree with you quite a bit HR  ;)
If I lived in Arizona I'd have my id ready to be shown so that being pulled over by the cops to check my papers doesn't take up more than a minute of my time, or less.
I can only speak for the states that I've lived in (NC OH and SC) but every time I've been pulled over, I've been required to show my ID (my drivers license for which I needed my birth certificate and Social Security card to obtain) and if the officer sees another offense than the reason he pulled me over, then I could be arrested for the secondary crime/issue not related to why I was pulled over in the first place.

Is this law that much different from what is already happening in the US? I'm already required to "show my papers" when stopped by the police, applying for a job, or applying for social services.

I do get a little angry when people balk at any sort of law that does seek to deport illegal immigrants.
12 million illegal aliens taking/stealing jobs, medical care, schooling etc is an invasion and I heartily agree that something must be done. Our system of social services only works when people pay into the system.

I always thought it was absurd for the social services in OH to waste my tax dollars to print duplicate signs about their services/rules in Spanish. Ohio is closer to French-speaking foreigners in Canada. LOL However, back down in the Carolinas now, even goodwill and home depot have all their signage in english AND spanish.

Of course, the real culprits are the employers who hire people without papers at sub-standard wages. We have a minimum wage in the USA to guarantee our citizens a reasonable standard of living. Those who employ illegal aliens have created a new class of slave-labor and have subverted our entire social system.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline peteb

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 11:00:55 AM »
I Live in Tucson
I am hispanic born in USA I still get angry when they ask me for my papers
this has been going on for along time
Pete

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 11:02:44 AM »

I do get a little angry when people balk at any sort of law that does seek to deport illegal immigrants.  I understand that our country may be slightly better off than Mexico (lately who knows), but if all of our best minds were leaving our country in mass exodus to say Canada, our country wouldn't be getting any better either would it?  I can see both sides of the issue, but frankly the social network of our country is stretched pretty thinly as it is with Healthcare being the biggest issue affecting those of us on the forums and the more people we add to that burden for whatever reason the worse the issue becomes.  If we had plenty of excess resources to help out others I don't think anyone would have an i

huh?  Are you stating that the peasant class of rural Mexico (overlooking, of course, that not all illegal immigrants come from Mexico, but also all of the Central American countries) represents a brain drain?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 11:13:38 AM »

I always thought it was absurd for the social services in OH to waste my tax dollars to print duplicate signs about their services/rules in Spanish.

I'm sure you're tax burden is really high.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 11:17:21 AM »
huh?  Are you stating that the peasant class of rural Mexico (overlooking, of course, that not all illegal immigrants come from Mexico, but also all of the Central American countries) represents a brain drain?

Are you insinuating that someone below the poverty level isn't intelligent?

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 11:33:18 AM »
Are you insinuating that someone below the poverty level isn't intelligent?

I'm insinuating that one of my best friends, a rural peasant from Pueblo state and illegal immigrant in NYC, improved his education by taking college classes in the US that never would have been available to him in Mexico.  I fail to see this as a brain drain to the Mexican state, because if he'd stayed there he'd still be raising corn on a farm.

You can dress up your Mississippi breeding all you'd like, but it's still dangling below your hem line.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 11:44:33 AM »
I fail to see this as a brain drain to the Mexican state, because if he'd stayed there he'd still be raising corn on a farm.

You can dress up your Mississippi breeding all you'd like, but it's still dangling below your hem line.

There is a very specific difference between education and intelligence.  There may be easier access to more opportunity here, but that's not the issue at hand.  You also just stated your friend is in New York City, he didn't take that opportunity back to Mexico to help improve the state of things in his native land.  That's pretty much the point I was getting at.

If you have a problem with where I'm from then perhaps you can look up the word prejudice in the dictionary because you're displaying all the symptoms.  I'm sure there is no difference to you, but I'm actually originally from Louisiana and my accent is from Pennsylvania due to a stint there in my formative years.  I did however matriculate in Mississippi, but my education wasn't sub par by any means.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 11:47:29 AM »
You're the one that made a claim that you can't back up.  No need to get angry.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 11:49:14 AM »
You're the one that made a claim that you can't back up.  No need to get angry.

Not angry just verbally sparring, I still love you more than my luggage.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2010, 11:53:47 AM »
I hope that everyone realizes that the cessation of illegal immigration and deportation of same would result in an across-the-board increase of 30% in consumer prices in the US.  OK, I made up that percent but I doubt it's wildly off course.

Also, a recent study showed that illegal immigrants generate 25% of GDP in San Diego county -- we should pro rate that for the entire US and see what happens.

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2010/jan/26/study-quantifies-immigrants-contributions-san-dieg/

There's a reason that the economy of Arizona has boomed in the past two decades and I can assure you it's not because white people are so awesome.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 11:55:43 AM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline denb45

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2010, 12:19:02 PM »
None of this seems to be a real problem here in New Mexico, I really don't think this place would even be on the map if it wasn't the way it is  ??? if you live here, and cannot speak Spanish & English like I do, then you might have a problem living here  ;D
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 12:20:49 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2010, 12:30:41 PM »
Of course it's not an issue in New Mexico.  It's been minority white ever since its inception.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline leatherman

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 12:33:30 PM »
I'm sure you're tax burden is really high.
every bit of my OH tax money that was wasted spent on printing social services signs in a foreign language was money that could have gone to ADAP or a million more worthy endeavors for actual citizens. Just because my individual tax burden was low doesn't mean it wasn't money wasted, much less when that kind of waste is charged against every tax-paying citizen of OH.

and before you dip to slandering my tax burden any more, I wasn't always on disability. I worked nearly full time from 14 yrs old up paying income taxes to the fed and the states of NC and OH. During the years my partner and I owned a pet store in Oh, we paid quite a bit in income taxes to the grand state of Ohio and the federal gov't.  ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 12:37:16 PM »
every bit of my OH tax money that was wasted spent on printing social services signs in a foreign language was money that could have gone to ADAP or a million more worthy endeavors for actual citizens. Just because my individual tax burden was low doesn't mean it wasn't money wasted, much less when that kind of waste is charged against every tax-paying citizen of OH.

and before you dip to slandering my tax burden any more, I wasn't always on disability. I worked nearly full time from 14 yrs old up paying income taxes to the fed and the states of NC and OH. During the years my partner and I owned a pet store in Oh, we paid quite a bit in income taxes to the grand state of Ohio and the federal gov't.  ;)

So you're ignoring that the cost of these signs is a bucket in the water compared to the increase in GDP that these same immigrants provide?  Got it.  Facts mean nothing, but xenophobia is OK.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline pozniceguy

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 12:48:38 PM »
Hey folks  I think the real lesson is being overwhelmed by rhetoric....  the borders are not controlled...... that is the problem   immigration is a Federal issue which has been nearly overcome with control/ political issues ....there are and will be a place for many immigrants to come to this country...they are wanted and needed.... it is the way they are coming that is the problem......   FIX THE PROBLEM........   the AZ  law is the reaction of a majority of local citizens  ( more than 70% support the law  :, AP news this morning)..   who somehow feel threatened  and the Feds are bullshitting but not addressing what is clearly a Federal problem .....    start writing your representatives....what do you want to see done???????         don't waste your breath on debating who  wins or loses  spend some time to think about a solution to the real problem.....

Nick
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
Le stelle la notte sono grandie luminose, nel cuore profondo del Texas

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 12:51:00 PM »
FIX THE PROBLEM

2,000 mile border with a developing country.  Give me details on how you would "fix" this "problem".
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Basquo

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 12:54:05 PM »
How is Spanish a foreign language if it's one of the languages spoken here? Because it's from Spain? Wouldn't that make English a foreign language, too?

It's been my experince that illegals are always wilder in bed. Just sayin'.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2010, 01:08:07 PM »
I wonder how exactly they are going to enforce it and avoid racial profiling. If I visit Arizona, go for a bike ride and don't have my ID on me am I going to be hauled off for questioning? Somehow I don't think so.

I hear ya Ford.   The only way to enforce this law would be to  use racial profiling... So basically, if you're not of fair complexion and blue eyed you're fair game.  It kind of turns your stomach when you think about it.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline freewillie99

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »
How is Spanish a foreign language if it's one of the languages spoken here? Because it's from Spain? Wouldn't that make English a foreign language, too?


I think the law stinks and should be repealed, but that's certainly no reason to veer off into absurd flights of politically correct delusion.  Wow.
Beware Romanians bearing strange gifts

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 02:03:37 PM »
Hey, guess what -- they want everyone else to pay for their law.  Typical teabagging free loaders.

Quote
The Arizona agency tasked with training 15,000 law officers to enforce the state's controversial new illegal immigration law has asked federal authorities for assistance, but administration officials say it is unclear whether the government will help.

Lyle Mann, executive director of the Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training Board, says federal assistance is "critical" to what he describes as an unprecedented effort to prepare officers as soon as this summer to enforce the law, which gives local police authority to identify and arrest illegal immigrants.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline leatherman

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2010, 02:08:28 PM »
Hey, guess what -- they want everyone else to pay for their law
so now you care where/how your tax money is being spent? ::)
I'm sure your portion of the tax burden won't be that much.  ;)  :D
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Basquo

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2010, 02:22:40 PM »
I think the law stinks and should be repealed, but that's certainly no reason to veer off into absurd flights of politically correct delusion.  Wow.

Someone named free willie is lecturing about politically correct delusion? Wow. I was just commenting on what Mikie said.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 04:14:13 PM »
Someone named free willie is lecturing about politically correct delusion? Wow. I was just commenting on what Mikie said.
fine. though this is going off topic, except as it applies to how immigrants are supposed to be handled by the American system. then why when i lived in cleveland with it's large polish immigrant population were the signs not also translated into Polish? or French as we were closer to the Canadian border? (especially with the Mexican border 1000 miles away, give or take) or Russian? But the bigger issue is why were signs in the human services (ie welfare, a social service paid for by american tax dollars for american citizens) building in any language but common American English?

wiki quote
English is the most common language in the United States. Though the U.S. federal government has no official language, English is considered the de facto, "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law", language of the United States because of its widespread use. English has been given official status by 30 of the 50 state governments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2010, 04:23:12 PM »
fine. though this is going off topic, except as it applies to how immigrants are supposed to be handled by the American system. then why when i lived in cleveland with it's large polish immigrant population were the signs not also translated into Polish? or French as we were closer to the Canadian border? (especially with the Mexican border 1000 miles away, give or take) or Russian? But the bigger issue is why were signs in the human services (ie welfare, a social service paid for by american tax dollars for american citizens) building in any language but common American English?

wiki quote
English is the most common language in the United States. Though the U.S. federal government has no official language, English is considered the de facto, "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law", language of the United States because of its widespread use. English has been given official status by 30 of the 50 state governments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English

Ah yes, bilingual signs herald the downfall of society. A shibboleth which is akin to "I'm not a racist, but . . . " and "Some of my best friends are . . . ".

 ::)

MtD

Offline BT65

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2010, 04:59:13 PM »
or French as we were closer to the Canadian border?

I actually live closer to Canada than you did in Ohio, and I no no one around this area whose native language is French.

the bigger issue is why were signs in the human services (ie welfare, a social service paid for by american tax dollars for american citizens) building in any language but common American English?


My first mother-in-law's ethnicity was Mexican, but she was born on the Texas border, on the U.S. side.  Because she was a migrant worker, and followed the crops with the rest of her family, she spoke Spanish, with very broken English.  I used to have to help her in stores, with the changing of money.  Now, she was a U.S. citizen, but hardly spoke English.  Should she have been deprived services because of not being able to speak hardly any English?  Not everyone fits into your perfect little stereotype.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2010, 05:14:29 PM »
Someone named free willie is lecturing about politically correct delusion?


LOL Cre, maybe he named himself after the Orca.. 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2010, 05:20:53 PM »
Don't forget the Vietnamese, Chinese, Russian, and other immigrant enclaves in which many business' signs are in another language. we have never been a monolingual nation, and never will be. Of all the things to be offended by, this is one issue which will never, ever be resolved.

Our southern border states have ALWAYS been bilingual. And as was pointed out, white people are a distinct minority in several large areas. English-only is just not ever going to happen.

I am all for finding a fair and easier to navigate method for entering this country legally - and for becoming a citizen if one is already here.

Unless you are driving a vehicle or performing a transaction which requires identification, no US citizen is required to hand over their ID upon demand by the authorities. Well, until now, apparently. The Arizona government has NOT clarified how they will do this without racial profiling - mainly because they can't.

And to a salient point made above about our economy, I find it remarkably hypocritical that anyone would walk into a grocery store and pay for a quart of strawberries without acknowledging that they are most likely funding illegal immigrant labor, and certainly benefiting from the results.

You want to see our economy tank? Really tank? Pay every worker minimum wage, and bring all agricultural business practices up to standard. I know it's fun to pretend we do not live in a world where we exploit others. It makes us sleep like babies.

But we do, Blanche, we DO live in that world.

Luckily, those we exploit are, up to now, comfortable with the situation - as money made here goes pretty far when sent home to a person's native country (not so much as a few years ago, but that's another topic).

As far as a brain drain, I honestly do not see how illegal immigration contributes. I would surmise that decades of underfunded and unappreciated public schooling has contributed more to that than anything. Our cowboy mentality has served us well, but it has not brought us past the 19th century insofar as contributing to a 21st century technological mindset.



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Welcome Thread

Offline denb45

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2010, 05:33:31 PM »
Of course it's not an issue in New Mexico.  It's been minority white ever since its inception.

And you'd be very wrong about this, there isn't a whole lot of whites living here in New Mexico, that just isn't a fact at all.......84% on census said they were white 41% White non-Hispanic 43% Hispanic white, Native American, black and all others make up 16% left...and just in case you didn't know this, light-skinned-Latinos, don't Identify with being Hispanic but do consider themselves White.....

 Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent definition and source info    Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2008 (b)      44.9%   15.4%

White persons not Hispanic, percent definition and source info    White persons not Hispanic, percent, 2008    41.7%   65.6%

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/35000.html
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 05:44:23 PM by denb45 »
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Offline pozniceguy

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2010, 05:35:43 PM »
How about some constructive  possibilities for controlling immigration  ???  Canada has at least as much of a border as the USA.  the Russians , and China have even more border area than the USA...  they all have Border control measures in place.....  The few people I personally know that have attempted to cross to Canada outside the "legal" ways were very quickly found out and deported...( this was back in the Vietnam era), apparently the Russians and Chinese have some control of their enormous areas.... and other places such as Australia, and most of the So American  countries have huge border areas... are they controlling Immigration effectively??..( perhaps I am delusional but it requires Political will and determination to accomplish control of any kind))  

Can anyone with a boat/car/pair of hiking boots and some determination cross into a remote place in Australia, New Zealand,  Russia, China   etc....and establish a home?  get a job??, have a "legal" family??
Lets hear some possible ideas for making the Immigration to USA  practical and attractive..    most "Americans"  have roots in families that were  immigrants....yes  even the "Native Americans"   originated from outside the current US borders.

The fact that Arizona has taken some steps in answer to a problem that a large majority of their citizens seem to see....  says we have a real issue that cant be  ignored or politicized   any longer....SOLUTIONS NEEDED......not name calling...shame on Obama for critiquing the  State of Arizona when the responsibility for a  National ( Federal) solution has been in his court for more than a year now  and he has done nothing.    the old saw;  " lead, follow, or get out of the way"   seems appropriate here..

Nick


Nick
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2010, 05:49:18 PM »
How about some constructive  possibilities for controlling immigration  ???  Canada has at least as much of a border as the USA.  the Russians , and China have even more border area than the USA...  they all have Border control measures in place.....  The few people I personally know that have attempted to cross to Canada outside the "legal" ways were very quickly found out and deported...( this was back in the Vietnam era), apparently the Russians and Chinese have some control of their enormous areas.... and other places such as Australia, and most of the So American  countries have huge border areas... are they controlling Immigration effectively??..( perhaps I am delusional but it requires Political will and determination to accomplish control of any kind))  

Can anyone with a boat/car/pair of hiking boots and some determination cross into a remote place in Australia, New Zealand,  Russia, China   etc....and establish a home?  get a job??, have a "legal" family??
Lets hear some possible ideas for making the Immigration to USA  practical and attractive..    most "Americans"  have roots in families that were  immigrants....yes  even the "Native Americans"   originated from outside the current US borders.

The fact that Arizona has taken some steps in answer to a problem that a large majority of their citizens seem to see....  says we have a real issue that cant be  ignored or politicized   any longer....SOLUTIONS NEEDED......not name calling...shame on Obama for critiquing the  State of Arizona when the responsibility for a  National ( Federal) solution has been in his court for more than a year now  and he has done nothing.    the old saw;  " lead, follow, or get out of the way"   seems appropriate here..

Nick


Nick

Border control is bullshit Nick. As an Australian I can assure you of that.

Australia shares no land borders with anyone and yet people still manage to arrive here in a manner that causes Governments of either stripe (Labor or Conservative) no end of political grief.

If we can't stop people from entering, you guys have no hope.

Moreover we have one of the most brutal systems for dealing with unauthorised arrivals. These folks are herded into detention centres whilst their applications for whatever (usually asylum) are processed. In a majority of cases these people are found to have a valid claim and end up scoring legal residency.

Which is good. Migration is good. It's made Australia rich and powerful. It's made the US rich and powerful.

But don't think for a moment that these dentention processes are about stemming the flow of itinerant brown people. They aren't. They're about pandering to racist White Australia. Why we've just toughened things up in preparation for a Federal Election later this year.

To those Americans who are freaking out about the Habenero Hordes pouring over your southern border - I say chillax doodz. Think about who does all the stinky jobs you good white folks wouldn't do in a million years.

Who cleans your toilets, picks your fruit and landscapes your gardens? It's sure as shit ain't decent citizens from Ohio.

MtD

Offline leatherman

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2010, 06:06:39 PM »
Who cleans your toilets, picks your fruit and landscapes your gardens? It's sure as shit ain't decent citizens from Ohio.
Your comments linking immigrants to those jobs are pretty racist-sounding and, to use Betty's word, stereotypical. it most certainly is citizens of OH and NC who are doing those jobs. A good female friend of mine in OH has recently started up her own cleaning service (business offices) and is doing quite well. Another female friend in OH has had a home cleaning business for nearly 10 yrs - yes cleaning people's toliets. And yet even another female friend in Oh and her brother have run their own landscaping buisness for nearly 30 yrs. (much of my own landscaping skills I learned working for them) My brother, in NC, started mowing lawns when he was 13; by 18 he had 5 employees (and was filing and paying taxes). Today he runs a landscaping business and has expanded into maintainence, with a crew of over 25 people.

All those friends have to compete, above board paying minimum wage to legal citizens, while others in the same professions break the laws and create a slave class of people here in the US.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2010, 06:09:11 PM »
Oh, and don't forget. All you law and order folks toking on that doobie or doing a little blow are the demand to Mexico's supply. Just as guilty as the mule bringing it across the border.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2010, 06:17:11 PM »
Your comments linking immigrants to those jobs are pretty racist-sounding and, to use Betty's word, stereotypical. it most certainly is citizens of OH and NC who are doing those jobs. A good female friend of mine in OH has recently started up her own cleaning service (business offices) and is doing quite well. Another female friend in OH has had a home cleaning business for nearly 10 yrs - yes cleaning people's toliets. And yet even another female friend in Oh and her brother have run their own landscaping buisness for nearly 30 yrs. (much of my own landscaping skills I learned working for them) My brother, in NC, started mowing lawns when he was 13; by 18 he had 5 employees (and was filing and paying taxes). Today he runs a landscaping business and has expanded into maintainence, with a crew of over 25 people.

All those friends have to compete, above board paying minimum wage to legal citizens, while others in the same professions break the laws and create a slave class of people here in the US.

Well of course you think I sound racist, the art of rhetoric being wasted on you.

MtD

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2010, 06:32:23 PM »
every bit of my OH tax money that was wasted spent on printing social services signs in a foreign language was money that could have gone to ADAP or a million more worthy endeavors for actual citizens.

Well, considering that only *legal* immigrants are entitled to the overwhelming majority of federal and state social programs, your point is moot. Undocumented aliens are barred from the following federal public benefits: loans, licenses, retirement, welfare, health, disability, public or assisted housing, food assistance, and unemployment benefits. States are barred from providing state or locally funded benefits to undocumented aliens, unless a state law is enacted granting such authority (e.g., ADAP).

Those Spanish-language signs and forms are speaking to those who are here legally -- paying the same American dollars into the same American system you are.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2010, 07:10:51 PM »
Well, considering that only *legal* immigrants are entitled to the overwhelming majority of federal and state social programs, your point is moot. Undocumented aliens are barred from the following federal public benefits: loans, licenses, retirement, welfare, health, disability, public or assisted housing, food assistance, and unemployment benefits. States are barred from providing state or locally funded benefits to undocumented aliens, unless a state law is enacted granting such authority (e.g., ADAP).

Those Spanish-language signs and forms are speaking to those who are here legally -- paying the same American dollars into the same American system you are.

So.... bitching about their cost would be .... um.... racist?
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Offline Bucko

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2010, 07:25:09 PM »
My take-away is much like this article posted in the Daily Kos: in just a few election cycles, expect to see Arizona turn from deep-red to a moderate shade of blue. No matter how conservative they may be, I cannot see local Hispanics ever voting Republican again.

It, much like Birtherism and Teabaggery, will forever mark the GOP as an extreme party of scared old white folk.
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Offline denb45

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2010, 07:42:29 PM »
My take-away is much like this article posted in the Daily Kos: in just a few election cycles, expect to see Arizona turn from deep-red to a moderate shade of blue. No matter how conservative they may be, I cannot see local Hispanics ever voting Republican again.

It, much like Birtherism and Teabaggery, will forever mark the GOP as an extreme party of scared old white folk.

Yeah I'm very happy to live in a VERY BLUE STATE, AZ pretty much has KILLED any hope for the GOP, at least as far as Latino Voters go, they've just put the last nail-in-that-coffin in AZ  ;)
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Offline madbrain

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2010, 08:22:49 PM »
I agree with you quite a bit HR  ;)I can only speak for the states that I've lived in (NC OH and SC) but every time I've been pulled over, I've been required to show my ID (my drivers license for which I needed my birth certificate and Social Security card to obtain) and if the officer sees another offense than the reason he pulled me over, then I could be arrested for the secondary crime/issue not related to why I was pulled over in the first place.

Usually when you get pulled over by the cops, there was a violation in the first place, or suspicion of a crime, eg. driving under the influence. Now, sometimes they make up the reason and it is really profiling. But they have to come up with a reason.. Also, driving is an activity that requires a license - a priviilege, not a right.

The cops can't just stop you for no reason if you are just walking in the street and you aren't suspected of any crime.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2010, 08:31:26 PM »
The cops can't just stop you for no reason if you are just walking in the street and you aren't suspected of any crime.


Hehe..  I guess I better tell them that the next time they harass me..
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Offline denb45

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2010, 08:37:54 PM »
Usually when you get pulled over by the cops, there was a violation in the first place, or suspicion of a crime, eg. driving under the influence. Now, sometimes they make up the reason and it is really profiling. But they have to come up with a reason.. Also, driving is an activity that requires a license - a priviilege, not a right.

The cops can't just stop you for no reason if you are just walking in the street and you aren't suspected of any crime.


The funny thing with me is, I've never been stopped by Law enforcement, in any State, any where, and speaking as a black-light-skinned-man, maybe I'm just in the majority and don't really fit any real profiling, I look at it this way, if your not doing anything unlawful, and your not wanted in any State, and everything-checks-out such as DL, Current-Registration, Plate-Tags and Valid auto Insurance, then
your really have nothing to worry about, no matter what race you are ;D
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 08:40:01 PM by denb45 »
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Offline Bucko

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2010, 09:11:52 PM »

The cops can't just stop you for no reason if you are just walking in the street and you aren't suspected of any crime.


Hehe..  I guess I better tell them that the next time they harass me..

You just read my mind, my friend  ;)
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2010, 09:17:24 PM »
Oh and the government didn't read our emails or listen to our phone calls under the Patriot Act.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2010, 10:08:47 PM »
so now you care where/how your tax money is being spent? ::)
I'm sure your portion of the tax burden won't be that much.  ;)  :D

You do realize that nowhere in my post did I used the word "I" don't you.  K
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Offline Dennis

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2010, 11:17:54 PM »
Usually when you get pulled over by the cops, there was a violation in the first place, or suspicion of a crime, eg. driving

The cops can't just stop you for no reason if you are just walking in the street and you aren't suspected of any crime.


This statement is actually incorrect. A police officer, or anybody, can walk up to you on the street and start asking questions without probable cause. However, you don't have to consent. The flipside to this is if you don't consent, you then give them probable cause. Most people don't realize this, and this is why this is a bad law with too many loop holes. Also, in some states it is against the law to walk around without a state issued id. I know here in Florida if you are stopped and don't have proof of identity, you can be hauled into jail so they can verify who you are, when you otherwise would have only received a citation.

Offline alliance

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2010, 11:51:35 PM »
How about some constructive  possibilities for controlling immigration  ??? ....
...Lets hear some possible ideas for making the Immigration to USA  practical and attractive..  

Thats right Nick, anyone can say "no" or "hell no", how about if we answer " no, but how about if we (fill in the blank)"


and to quote Matty:"All those friends have to compete, above board paying minimum wage to legal citizens, while others in the same professions break the laws and create a slave class of people here in the US"

I wouldnt mind seeing the naturalization process streamlined, so our fellow human beings can operate in the daylight and become productive MEMBERS of society. Perhaps less control of the PROCESS is needed. Not carelessly, but quicker. What is everyone so afraid of? Anything?


"The influence of each human being on others in this life is a kind of immortality."
10/10/12   CD4=378  %=32   VL=UD
5/10/12     CD4=426  %=32  VL=UD
11/15/11   CD4=296  %=29  VL=UD(20)
6/15/11     CD4=345  %=29  VL=UD(38)
3/15/11     CD4=317  %=31  VL=UD
12/1/10     CD4=315  %=28  VL=UD
8/11/10     CD4=250  %=25  VL=UD
6/10/10     CD4=380  %=24  VL=UD
3/4/10       CD4=340  %=22   VL=UD
1/11/10     CD4=312  %=22   VL =130
11/30/09   CD4=228  %=19  VL=1726
11/20/09    started atripla
10/15/09   CD4=281  %=18   VL=85,000

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2010, 11:58:17 PM »
imagine our economic structure when all workers are paid minimum wage. Seriously. Hotel workers. Landscapers. Berry pickers. And know that, increasingly, other countries are insisting on wages that match the level paid in the US.

We have an entire economic structure that DEPENDS on the inequality of wages, on the under-the-table wages paid to immigrant workers. We would collapse were this to vanish. It would be like every bank calling in every loan all at the same time.

Is it a GREAT system? Am I PROUD of it? Hells to the no. But lets think this through. So we stop exploiting illigal immigrant workers. And now what? Do you know something abotu our economic system, ESPECIALLY as it deals in service and agricultural industries that I don't? If so, please share.

I am not HAPPY to participate in the exploitation of workers when I buy strawberries at two dollars a quart. But once in a while. I do just that.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline alliance

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2010, 12:28:19 AM »
By the way, Happy Workers Memorial Day.

"The first Workers Memorial Day was observed in 1989. April 28 was chosen because it is the anniversary of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration and the day of a similar remembrance in Canada. Every year, people in hundreds of communities and at worksites recognize workers who have been killed or injured on the job. Trade unionists around the world now mark April 28 as an International Day of Mourning."

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/safety/memorial/

"The influence of each human being on others in this life is a kind of immortality."
10/10/12   CD4=378  %=32   VL=UD
5/10/12     CD4=426  %=32  VL=UD
11/15/11   CD4=296  %=29  VL=UD(20)
6/15/11     CD4=345  %=29  VL=UD(38)
3/15/11     CD4=317  %=31  VL=UD
12/1/10     CD4=315  %=28  VL=UD
8/11/10     CD4=250  %=25  VL=UD
6/10/10     CD4=380  %=24  VL=UD
3/4/10       CD4=340  %=22   VL=UD
1/11/10     CD4=312  %=22   VL =130
11/30/09   CD4=228  %=19  VL=1726
11/20/09    started atripla
10/15/09   CD4=281  %=18   VL=85,000

Offline leatherman

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2010, 12:45:37 AM »
and to quote Matty
lordy! use the quote function next time please. ;) that is "mikie" you're quoting.
I'm sure Matty doesn't want to see MY words put into his mouth ROFLMAO

mikie
who thinks Philly complaining about tax expenidtures is no different than mikie complaining about tax expenditures, and Matty talking about illegal aliens doing jobs that americans wouldn't do isn't very rhetorical when those same types of job are being done by "decent" Ohioans ::)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2010, 12:50:04 AM »
You're either being willfully obtuse or your IQ isn't particularly very high.  Should we take a poll?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline alliance

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2010, 01:00:58 AM »
lordy! use the quote function next time please. ;) that is "mikie" you're quoting.
I'm sure Matty doesn't want to see MY words put into his mouth ROFLMAO


So sorry Mikie and Matty, Im just killing time here riding out my Aripla wave with a side order of zyrtec for severe allergy issues.  My thoughts arent the clearest tonight- some day I'll try to figure out how to put two quotes in one message. :)
"The influence of each human being on others in this life is a kind of immortality."
10/10/12   CD4=378  %=32   VL=UD
5/10/12     CD4=426  %=32  VL=UD
11/15/11   CD4=296  %=29  VL=UD(20)
6/15/11     CD4=345  %=29  VL=UD(38)
3/15/11     CD4=317  %=31  VL=UD
12/1/10     CD4=315  %=28  VL=UD
8/11/10     CD4=250  %=25  VL=UD
6/10/10     CD4=380  %=24  VL=UD
3/4/10       CD4=340  %=22   VL=UD
1/11/10     CD4=312  %=22   VL =130
11/30/09   CD4=228  %=19  VL=1726
11/20/09    started atripla
10/15/09   CD4=281  %=18   VL=85,000

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2010, 01:10:02 AM »
My BF is finally coasting down from a TWO DAY Zyrtec high. Man, that stuff is S-t-r-o-n-g.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline alliance

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2010, 01:17:37 AM »

This is the second day of my first time on Zyrtec. For the future, you can probably take me off the zyrtec list. 8)
"The influence of each human being on others in this life is a kind of immortality."
10/10/12   CD4=378  %=32   VL=UD
5/10/12     CD4=426  %=32  VL=UD
11/15/11   CD4=296  %=29  VL=UD(20)
6/15/11     CD4=345  %=29  VL=UD(38)
3/15/11     CD4=317  %=31  VL=UD
12/1/10     CD4=315  %=28  VL=UD
8/11/10     CD4=250  %=25  VL=UD
6/10/10     CD4=380  %=24  VL=UD
3/4/10       CD4=340  %=22   VL=UD
1/11/10     CD4=312  %=22   VL =130
11/30/09   CD4=228  %=19  VL=1726
11/20/09    started atripla
10/15/09   CD4=281  %=18   VL=85,000

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2010, 02:45:29 AM »
Arizona Sheriff says he will not inforce the law.  He also talks about a provision in the law that allows any citizen to sue any police official for NOT inforcing the law.  How would this go?  A person would claim a police officer should have been pulling over more "illegals".

This is from "Countdown with Keith Olbermann" tonight and his interview with the sheriff.  You can jump to 4mins, 47 secs for the interview. 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#36838270

On an interesting note--  Karl Rove believes the law is unconstitutional.  You can roll out of your chair now.   


Offline madbrain

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2010, 03:18:12 AM »
This statement is actually incorrect. A police officer, or anybody, can walk up to you on the street and start asking questions without probable cause. However, you don't have to consent. The flipside to this is if you don't consent, you then give them probable cause. Most people don't realize this, and this is why this is a bad law with too many loop holes. Also, in some states it is against the law to walk around without a state issued id. I know here in Florida if you are stopped and don't have proof of identity, you can be hauled into jail so they can verify who you are, when you otherwise would have only received a citation.

Interesting. I lived in FL for a year but never bothered to obtain a state ID, or driver's license since I didn't drive back then. I never got harassed by any cop, but I guess being white might have had something to do with it. I was still able to vote, with a US passport.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2010, 03:20:26 AM »
lordy! use the quote function next time please. ;) that is "mikie" you're quoting.
I'm sure Matty doesn't want to see MY words put into his mouth ROFLMAO

The thought of anything of yours anywhere near my mouth makes me puke a little.  ;)  ;)  ;)  :)  :)  :)  ;)  :D

MtD

Offline next2u

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Re: Arizona can go Fuck itself
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2010, 06:56:42 AM »
before starting, i have not read a lot about this law and have only seen headlines.

with that said i truly believe with all my heart that ARIZONA can go FUCK ITSELF. i don't give a shit about illegal immigration. but that does not mean it isn't a real problem. i'm sure there is a negative impact but i'm damn sure there is a positive impact as well.

the law is racist. this is wrong. there is no way to fix something this broken at the state level. there is no quick fix and this is a band aid solution to a hemorrhage. AZ, like most states, has profited from immigrant labor and mexico has less than lovely living conditions for a lot of their citizens. their citizens, like myself, are global citizens. this means they deserve some respect until a better solution is found for a 2 country decades old problem. 

i don't like scapegoats. i dont agree with immigration laws that favor people with wealth, good education, and those with other one ups. i understand why this works but i do not agree with it. it will be a cold day in hell before you get me to do half of the jobs that are being stolen. why? because my family did them and they geared us away from them.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 06:59:20 AM by next2u »
midapr07 - seroconversion
sept07 - tested poz
oct07 cd4 1013; vl 13,900; cd4% 41
feb08 cd4  694;  vl 16,160; cd4% 50.1
may08 cd4 546; vl 91,480; cd4% 32
aug08 cd4 576; vl 48,190; cd4% 40.7
dec08 cd4 559; vl 63,020; cd4% 29.4
feb09 cd4 464; vl 11,000; cd4% 26
may09 cd4 544; vl 29,710; cd4% 27.2
oct09 cd4 ...; vl 23,350; cd4% 31.6
mar10 cd4 408; vl 59,050; cd4% 31.4
aug10 cd4 328; vl 80,000; cd4% 19.3 STARTED ATRIPLA
oct10 cd4 423; vl 410 ;); cd4% 30.2
jun11 cd4 439; vl <20 ;); cd4% 33.8 <-Undetectable!
mar12 cd4 695; vl ud; cd4% 38.6
jan13 cd4 738; vl ud; cd4% 36.8
aug13 cd4 930; vl ud; cd4% 44.3
jan14 cd4 813; vl ud; cd4% 42.8
may14 cd4 783; vl *; cd4%43.5

 


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