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Author Topic: Question about superinfection  (Read 13722 times)

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Offline Hellraiser

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Question about superinfection
« on: March 24, 2010, 06:38:18 PM »
So, let's say 2 guys are getting it on unprotected with 2 different strains of HIV and both are undetectable and on HAART.  Superinfection would seem to be impossible right?  I know with an undetectable viral load infection is less likely and I would conjecture that the HAART regimen they are on would work like PEP and destroy any incoming virus?

Just curious if that makes sense or not.

Offline WillyWump

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2010, 06:40:38 PM »
The prob would be if one of the guys had resistances that the other doesnt. Not sure if that qualifies as a Superinfection, but nevertheless it could be problematic.
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Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2010, 06:43:57 PM »
Right I get that part, but assuming the Haart regimen his partner is on is not what his virus is resistant to I would assume his meds would act as pep for the virus meaning super infection couldn't occur.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2010, 06:48:13 PM »
Are you asking this in light of mutations in case you want to bareback with me?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2010, 06:51:01 PM »
Are you asking this in light of mutations in case you want to bareback with me?

Yes, of course.  Actually at the 2012 "End-of-the-world" planning orgy committee this question came up about the barebackin and all.  I just thought I should be responsible and ask for everyone's benefit.

Offline WillyWump

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 06:51:35 PM »
Right I get that part, but assuming the Haart regimen his partner is on is not what his virus is resistant to I would assume his meds would act as pep for the virus meaning super infection couldn't occur.
[/quote

Different strains can be resistant to different drugs. For example 3DCR is resistant to three of the four types of antivirals
POZ since '08

Last Labs-
6/3/14 CD4- 736, UD 34%
6/25/13 CD4- 1036, UD,
2/4/13, CD4 - 489, UD, 28%

Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 06:52:12 PM »
Quotes fucking up again.

Different strains can be resistant to different drugs. For example 3DCR is resistant to three of the four types of antivirals
POZ since '08

Last Labs-
6/3/14 CD4- 736, UD 34%
6/25/13 CD4- 1036, UD,
2/4/13, CD4 - 489, UD, 28%

Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 06:53:13 PM »
Are you asking this in light of mutations in case you want to bareback with me?

Two voracious bottoms barebacking?  How is that even possible?  Pancakes.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline newt

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 06:54:26 PM »
Your orginal conjecture is sensible but unproven. Virolosy is not the only considereation in human reltionshiops. - matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline darkerpozz

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 06:57:49 PM »
Maybe by switching sides on a double fisted dildo...just a thought

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2010, 12:39:27 AM »
I've gotten a lot of conflicting info about super-infection.  The HIV pharmacist at the practice I go to says she sees it all the time--especially in partners who are both poz.  I read Dr. Gallant and docs on thebody say they think it is very, very rare for people who've been poz for several years.  They say it usually happens with people newly infected.  So, I remain confused as usual..lol.


Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2010, 09:25:21 AM »
I've gotten a lot of conflicting info about super-infection.  The HIV pharmacist at the practice I go to says she sees it all the time--especially in partners who are both poz.  I read Dr. Gallant and docs on thebody say they think it is very, very rare for people who've been poz for several years.  They say it usually happens with people newly infected.  So, I remain confused as usual..lol.



Mary please -- you can find conflicting information on how to tie shoes too.  Who are you going to believe, the pharmacist or Gallant?  Come on.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2010, 10:06:58 AM »
 I for one will need to see more data on this and possibly someone to explain it to me before I do something rash like buy condoms .

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2010, 11:38:15 AM »
I've gotten a lot of conflicting info about super-infection.  The HIV pharmacist at the practice I go to says she sees it all the time--especially in partners who are both poz.  I read Dr. Gallant and docs on thebody say they think it is very, very rare for people who've been poz for several years.  They say it usually happens with people newly infected.  So, I remain confused as usual..lol.



I'm just stuck at the idea that you have an HIV speciality pharmacist who talks to people.

And they are not even based in India?

A (whose pharmacist appears to be a web ap -- and not one of the brighter ones)
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2010, 04:27:46 PM »
In NSW there is a character called the Chief Pharmacist in HIV, but he only consults with prescribers and hospital pharmacists. The latter since HIV medications can only be dispensed from hospital pharmacies here.

MtD

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2010, 06:10:05 PM »
So, let's say 2 guys are getting it on unprotected with 2 different strains of HIV and both are undetectable and on HAART.  Superinfection would seem to be impossible right?  I know with an undetectable viral load infection is less likely and I would conjecture that the HAART regimen they are on would work like PEP and destroy any incoming virus?

Just curious if that makes sense or not.
\

Don't know exactly, but personally I just don't buy any of this super duper squared infection stuff.  My wife and I have been on two different regimens and also on the same regimen, different times of course, and I don't like condoms...  and I don't like to pull out.  Nothings come of it so far, she's been undetectable during our whole relationship.  Both of our Cd4's have been 1000+, hers the whole time,  while I steadily climbed from a count of 103..

We've been together for 4 years now and have had lots of nasty fi.. um sex. 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2010, 07:14:54 PM »
\

Don't know exactly, but personally I just don't buy any of this super duper squared infection stuff.  My wife and I have been on two different regimens and also on the same regimen, different times of course, and I don't like condoms...  and I don't like to pull out.  Nothings come of it so far, she's been undetectable during our whole relationship.  Both of our Cd4's have been 1000+, hers the whole time,  while I steadily climbed from a count of 103..

We've been together for 4 years now and have had lots of nasty fi.. um sex. 

Hold on back this up.  You're a man...and she's not a man?  And you had sex?  Can you start from the beginning?  I'm totally lost.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2010, 10:20:04 PM »
Hold on back this up.  You're a man...and she's not a man?  And you had sex?  Can you start from the beginning?  I'm totally lost.

I think you call it breeder sex. 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2010, 10:25:17 PM »
Trey,

I think Skeeter's trying to tell you he's


MtD

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2010, 10:55:02 PM »
That graphic is so awesome.

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2010, 11:00:11 PM »
Hold on back this up.  You're a man...and she's not a man?  And you had sex?  Can you start from the beginning?  I'm totally lost.

Seriously? You didn't know that he ain't family?  I mean, he did try dick once, but it apparently didn't go so well.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2010, 11:01:03 PM »
I knew I just wanted to give him a hard time.  By give him a hard time I meant tease him not "Give Him a Hard Time".

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2010, 11:02:48 PM »



  MArco is going to be upset about that rainbow being black and white. ;D
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2010, 11:04:05 PM »


  MArco is going to be upset about that rainbow being black and white. ;D

Awww honey. Don't think of it as back-and-white. Try to think of it as charcoal pastels. :)

MtD

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2010, 12:10:07 AM »
Mary please -- you can find conflicting information on how to tie shoes too.  Who are you going to believe, the pharmacist or Gallant?  Come on.

I would trust Dr. Gallant.  I don't even like the HIV pharmacist.  She is so condescending.  She is also the one who told me when I first came to the office that she was totally sure I was HIV neg and had gotten a false/positive.  When it came back poz again, she changed her story and acted like she didn't say that. 

She still says she has couples who develop their partner's resistance to meds after not having them before.  Is this different from super-infection?  I am from KY you know. 

Offline Ann

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2010, 07:14:26 AM »
I would trust Dr. Gallant.  I don't even like the HIV pharmacist.  She is so condescending.  She is also the one who told me when I first came to the office that she was totally sure I was HIV neg and had gotten a false/positive.  When it came back poz again, she changed her story and acted like she didn't say that. 

She still says she has couples who develop their partner's resistance to meds after not having them before.  Is this different from super-infection?  I am from KY you know. 

Ted, if she changed her story about something you knew  to be true, then why are you thinking she's telling you the truth about these alleged couples? Sounds to me like she's full of the poopie-stuff.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2010, 12:31:19 AM »
Ted, if she changed her story about something you knew  to be true, then why are you thinking she's telling you the truth about these alleged couples? Sounds to me like she's full of the poopie-stuff.

I agree.  After what she told me and then changed her story, I should know to take what she says with a grain of salt and double-check what she tells me.

Thanks for reminding me to stop being so trusting without verification--or earning that trust.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2010, 01:04:42 AM »
also, just how would the pharmacist know that these people supposedly had "super infection" issues, without being privy to people's medical records? Because they changed meds??? That's not a very good indicator. The only medical advice I take from my pharmacist concerns side-effects, not treatment regimen suggestions

also not mentioned yet I think, is about the next to nil chance of any infection occuring when partners are undetectable. If a person with an undetectable viral load cannot pass on the infection, then how could any reinfection or super infection even occur? (If your pharmacist is truly seeing this "super infection" occuring then she must only be dealing with probably newer patients who have higher viral loads and are beginning treatment)
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2010, 11:59:36 PM »
I think many people are wondering about super-infection these days.  I was just reading a question to a doc on thebody.  Here is the Q&A. 

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Current/Q207616.html

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2010, 12:11:13 AM »



   Typical, a doctor trying to avoid a lawsuit.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2010, 12:25:04 AM »
I was just reading a question to a doc on thebody.  Here is the Q&A.
in that scenario, neither partner was on meds at all (much less off meds sufficiently to cause resistance mutations to occur) so I don't see why they would even worry about superinfection. More than likely one partner was infected and passed it along to the other partner, so both would have the same virus with identical mutations (if any).

of course, people are talking about it (ie superinfection) recently. ::) Superinfection seems to be the newest buzz word. (IMHO, You can't forget either, that in America, we're living in a "society of fear" anymore where "boogey men" have to be created to keep us fearful and our actions under control.) Since more than likely superinfection is only happening between people who have never been diagnosed, or between people not on treatment with higher viral loads, I would venture to say that the amount of superinfection will always be a small percentage. The easiest "cure" for superinfection is to have a genotype test done prior to starting on meds (so you get the proper meds taking into account the multiple mutations of your "superinfection') and once on meds to get your VL to undetectable so as not to spread your mutation around.

I always keep something in mind, Ted, that Ann says over in the Am I Infected forum alot. There are enough people in these forums for long enough that though some of this stuff may be theoretical, the actuality is usually nil, otherwises we'd be seeing those issues in members here after 20 yrs or more. ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2010, 12:27:34 AM »
Yeah I was just asking so that hopefully I can put my fears of reinfecting another pozzie aside should I decide to do the deed without a parachute.  Of course me having sex at this point is purely theoretical as well.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2010, 12:36:08 AM »
Yeah I was just asking so that hopefully I can put my fears of reinfecting another pozzie aside should I decide to do the deed without a parachute.  Of course me having sex at this point is purely theoretical as well.
just like the straights with UD VL can have sex and get pregnant without passing along any virus, the same "should" hold true for gays. I mean how can an UD VL be passed on (ie reinfection)? ??? 

Of course me having sex at this point is purely theoretical as well.
don't give up hope!  ;D

all my partners keep dying from AIDS but I keep finding more. :D Though I didn't have any sex for the last 8 month my last partner was alive (not much libido when you're sick and dying I would imagine) and didn't have any sex for 2 yrs afterwards while I grieved and moved from home to home, I've been getting me some nice ass 8) :-* lately from a fellow pozzie I met after moving to SC (thank you a4a LOL). Maybe you just need to move to another state. ;) ROFLMAO :D
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2010, 12:38:20 AM »
Yeah I was just asking so that hopefully I can put my fears of reinfecting another pozzie aside should I decide to do the deed without a parachute.  Of course me having sex at this point is purely theoretical as well.

So basically you're just wasting our time here. 
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2010, 12:49:07 AM »
So basically you're just wasting our time here. 

No I have a particular Philadelphian squarely in my sights.  I'm just now crushing up the roofies to get them into powder form and put them in the mail.

Offline Ann

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2010, 10:02:17 AM »

   Typical, a doctor trying to avoid a lawsuit.


They seem to do a lot of that over at tehbodeh.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2010, 12:24:31 PM »
They seem to do a lot of that over at tehbodeh.

LOL...  I respect the good doctor, but I'm still pissed over them not answering my question as to whether I was infected or not back in 05, when I thought I was just a lowdown worried well. ;D  I posted like 75 times and he kept replying to the guys before and after me..
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2010, 03:56:47 AM »
No I have a particular Philadelphian squarely in my sights.  I'm just now crushing up the roofies to get them into powder form and put them in the mail.

Way to scare them off!  ;D

j/k, good luck..
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline elf

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2010, 12:59:10 PM »
I just read that cooinfection with HIV-2 is more common in Latin America than previously thought:
http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/cienciaesaude/ultimas-noticias/estado/2010/09/02/pesquisa-confirma-infeccao-pelo-hiv-2-em-15-casos-no-brasil.jhtm

Many drugs which are fine for HIV1, aren't effective when HIV2 is involved.

HIV-2 is rare in Europe, but the German singer had it, which made the transmission easier to trace and confirm. Had she had HIV-1, it might have been more difficult to say that it was she who infected her ex-partner.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 01:04:50 PM by elf »
Let's have a Kiki!

Offline peteb

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2010, 01:12:26 PM »
well trey my doc told me not to have sex with another poz she said I could get in bad trouble I left it at that,i get the picture. Made the wrong mistake once :)

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2010, 01:15:55 PM »
I just read that cooinfection with HIV-2 is more common in Latin America than previously thought:
http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/cienciaesaude/ultimas-noticias/estado/2010/09/02/pesquisa-confirma-infeccao-pelo-hiv-2-em-15-casos-no-brasil.jhtm

Many drugs which are fine for HIV1, aren't effective when HIV2 is involved.

HIV-2 is rare in Europe, but the German singer had it, which made the transmission easier to trace and confirm. Had she had HIV-1, it might have been more difficult to say that it was she who infected her ex-partner.

I don't follow the logic of HAART which is effective against HIV1 would not be effective against HIV2 unless perhaps HIV2 has some sort of resistance to one class or a couple of classes of drugs?  Can you link something that backs up that statement?

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2010, 01:47:21 PM »
well trey my doc told me not to have sex with another poz she said I could get in bad trouble I left it at that,i get the picture. Made the wrong mistake once :)


Hi Pete . That's really disturbing to me to hear that your doctor told you that , is this doctor a HIV specialist ?

What disturbs me about the statement is that it sounds more like negative HIV stigma hysteria than science . 

Offline peteb

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2010, 02:21:18 PM »
yes I guess ur right I am gonna have a talk with her
other than her sayin that she really is good

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2010, 02:36:44 PM »
well trey my doc told me not to have sex with another poz she said I could get in bad trouble I left it at that,i get the picture. Made the wrong mistake once :)


So she suggests that you have sex with neggies only (I can see that manhunt profile: "HIV+ here, U B neg")?  Or is she suggesting that you take some HIV celibacy vows?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 02:38:25 PM by Rev. Moon »
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2010, 02:52:33 PM »
yes I guess ur right I am gonna have a talk with her
other than her sayin that she really is good


Ask her the question again , if you get the same answer ask her out on a date .

Offline peteb

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2010, 04:02:49 PM »
I dont know she knows I have been with my partner for 15 years
he is neg and I thank god for that
so no sex with anyone else I am married :)

Offline mecch

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2010, 05:27:02 PM »
Is what she said:  "no unprotected sex with another HIV+" ? 
That sounds like advice a doctor might give.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline elf

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2010, 05:40:33 PM »
I don't follow the logic of HAART which is effective against HIV1 would not be effective against HIV2 unless perhaps HIV2 has some sort of resistance to one class or a couple of classes of drugs?  Can you link something that backs up that statement?

Quote
In vitro (laboratory) studies suggest that nucleoside analogs are active against HIV-2, though not as active as against HIV-1. Protease inhibitors should be active against HIV-2. However, non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors (NNRTIs) are not active against HIV-2.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/hiv2.htm

I thought it wasn't class-specific, but it appears to be.
In Europe, Hiv-2 is mostly found in Portugal and France (because of receiving many immigrants from West Africa).
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 05:45:56 PM by elf »
Let's have a Kiki!

Offline Etay1207

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2010, 01:47:08 AM »
My partner is also afraid of superinfection so he won't let me cum in him. All I have to say is...If reinfection was real, there's no way I wouldn't have it. I demand all my tops to either cum in my ass or my mouth. I don't have sex for the good feeling. I endure it for the creamy ending.
POZ since 1999
1/07 tcells: 530 vl: 72,922 7/07 tcells: 542 vl: 26,577
9/08 tcells: 339 vl: 56,120  7/09 tcells: 267 vl: 663,160
11/09 tcells: 71 vl: 498,670 2/10 tcells: 52 vl: 322,000
 no meds and feeling great!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Question about superinfection
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2010, 01:48:35 AM »
My partner is also afraid of superinfection so he won't let me cum in him. All I have to say is...If reinfection was real, there's no way I wouldn't have it. I demand all my tops to either cum in my ass or my mouth. I don't have sex for the good feeling. I endure it for the creamy ending.

This is probably the most insightful thing you've ever posted here.

MtD

 


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