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Author Topic: Aids vs. HIV  (Read 18716 times)

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Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2010, 10:41:35 AM »
Really?  I know enough guys that would zip up and run home with their tail between their legs if you disclosed that it makes me not want to say.  Not that Hellraiser has been getting any lately.  Why is he speaking of himself in the third person?  I have no idea.

For sure it would turn off most guys, but if I'm attracted to a guy who tells me he has AIDS (but goes on to elaborate that he doesn't currently have any OI's, etc), I'm good with it.  I'm always somewhat ironically amused that more guys bring up that they're HIV+ to me pre-sex now than when I was negative.  In fact, I don't remember anybody ever talking to me about being HIV+ before my diagnosis.  In the past, I've said that some people have HIV-dar.  It's like we can tell others are also HIV+.  Of course, like gaydar, it's not 100% accurate. 
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,707
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2010, 10:43:43 AM »
I'm so old school, I still say I have GRID.

Gotcha beat, I painted a big red X on my front door.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline RapidRod

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  • Posts: 15,288
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2010, 10:52:03 AM »
Gotcha beat, I painted a big red X on my front door.
Tom I thought you had the biohazard decal on the front door.  ;)  I know we did have some forum members that had the biohazard tattoo on them.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2010, 11:01:10 AM »
I know we did have some forum members that had the biohazard tattoo on them.
I love all my tats, especially my biohaz!
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,288
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2010, 11:06:04 AM »
I love all my tats, especially my biohaz!

ROFL, another one.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2010, 11:19:31 AM »
I love all my tats, especially my biohaz!


I have 3 of them....  my first ID doc was examining me one day and asked why I did it.  I just gave her a sheepish smile and she gave me a script for Paxil...lol
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline blackwingbear

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  • Hello, all you happy people....
    • THE DARK MIND OF BLACKWINGBEAR
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2010, 08:18:57 PM »
I love all my tats, especially my biohaz!

I've thought about getting one of those also...
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline blackwingbear

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  • Hello, all you happy people....
    • THE DARK MIND OF BLACKWINGBEAR
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2010, 08:20:51 PM »
For sure it would turn off most guys, but if I'm attracted to a guy who tells me he has AIDS

I am too. Don't know whether it's a matter of I appreciate the honesty or that I feel a kinship to them.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Nestor

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  • What we love, we shall grow to resemble.
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2010, 09:40:22 PM »
RR,

Thank you again for sharing your experience with us.

Quote
No I wasn't on meds because CD4s were within the normal range.
 

Indeed, your CD4s were well beyond "normal range"--I think there are only a handful of people here, even ones who are on meds, who have CD4s above a thousand. 

Is there a lesson that we should draw from your experience?  You were doing everything right--getting your labs done every three months, as is recommended.  You had incredibly excellent numbers.  So what lesson, if any, should we learn?  That you should have predicted the sudden crash and the OI and started meds with a CD4 of 1400?  That even someone with a CD4 of 1400 should be on HAART? 

I talked about this with my doctor about a year ago.  I have various plans of spending a lot of time backpacking, and even joining the Peace Corps where I would be in some remote place for two years.  Would it be okay to go that long without having labs done?  She said that most people decline slowly and gradually and that as my numbers hadn't even begun to decline, the chances of my descending into what used to be called "full-blown AIDS" in the next couple of years would be quite slim.  Your case--and a couple of others like it--are a scary reminder of the exceptions to that rule. 

On a broader level, it makes the workings of the virus seem even more mysterious.  Does the virus spend 21 years trying to figure out how to attack a strong immune system and then, one day, finally hit upon the "right" way? 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,143
  • Semi-misanthropic
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2010, 09:41:05 PM »
Nonepidemic GayĖRelated Kaposi Sarcoma

Several reports documented KS in homosexual men who persistently had no evidence of HIV infection. These patients had an indolent and cutaneous form of the disease, which caused new lesions to appear every few years. Lesions occur most commonly on the extremities and genitalia but can occur anywhere on the skin.[1] These cases may indicate the presence of causal factors other than HIV that homosexual men may be exposed to because of their lifestyle.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2010, 09:49:56 PM »
Nonepidemic GayĖRelated Kaposi Sarcoma

Several reports documented KS in homosexual men who persistently had no evidence of HIV infection. These patients had an indolent and cutaneous form of the disease, which caused new lesions to appear every few years. Lesions occur most commonly on the extremities and genitalia but can occur anywhere on the skin.[1] These cases may indicate the presence of causal factors other than HIV that homosexual men may be exposed to because of their lifestyle.

You got a reference for this, Margaret?

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2010, 09:57:19 PM »
So what lesson, if any, should we learn? 

The lesson is that shit happens that's beyond your control.  Embrace it.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,288
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2010, 09:57:43 PM »
RR,

Thank you again for sharing your experience with us.
 

Indeed, your CD4s were well beyond "normal range"--I think there are only a handful of people here, even ones who are on meds, who have CD4s above a thousand. 

Is there a lesson that we should draw from your experience?  You were doing everything right--getting your labs done every three months, as is recommended.  You had incredibly excellent numbers.  So what lesson, if any, should we learn?  That you should have predicted the sudden crash and the OI and started meds with a CD4 of 1400?  That even someone with a CD4 of 1400 should be on HAART? 

I talked about this with my doctor about a year ago.  I have various plans of spending a lot of time backpacking, and even joining the Peace Corps where I would be in some remote place for two years.  Would it be okay to go that long without having labs done?  She said that most people decline slowly and gradually and that as my numbers hadn't even begun to decline, the chances of my descending into what used to be called "full-blown AIDS" in the next couple of years would be quite slim.  Your case--and a couple of others like it--are a scary reminder of the exceptions to that rule. 

On a broader level, it makes the workings of the virus seem even more mysterious.  Does the virus spend 21 years trying to figure out how to attack a strong immune system and then, one day, finally hit upon the "right" way? 
I had my labs every three months. I started not feeling well about a month after my last lab. Cause of it crashing is unknown. Ruled as a fluke..

Offline Hellraiser

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  • Posts: 4,143
  • Semi-misanthropic
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2010, 10:02:45 PM »
You got a reference for this, Margaret?

MtD

Sorry I'm getting tired, this is from the other thread about KS.  I found it interesting and meant to put it into that thread.  Anyway I had never heard of KS occuring specifically in gay men without HIV and it was the "Epidemic" version which is supposed to be specific to people with HIV.  It sort of makes sense in this thread but not really.

Offline Nestor

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  • Posts: 430
  • What we love, we shall grow to resemble.
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2010, 10:04:08 PM »
Quote
Nestor, the one who is dying has been on meds for several years. The one with the constant infections is not on meds. His numbers remained "good". Tcells 500-600 VL <1000.

Etay, I am so sorry to hear about these friends.  Are you really sure that the first one is dying?  Why?  What does he have?  Is there a reason the meds have not worked in his case?  So many people have turned around.  I do not mean to pry,or to be insenstive to your suffering and that of your friend, but I think many of us hear this kind of thing and get terrified--there are still people dying with this disease that we have--and it would be of immense service to all of us to have as much of a context as possible in which to evaluate information of this sort.  

Quote
Several reports documented KS in homosexual men who persistently had no evidence of HIV infection. These patients had an indolent and cutaneous form of the disease, which caused new lesions to appear every few years. Lesions occur most commonly on the extremities and genitalia but can occur anywhere on the skin.[1] These cases may indicate the presence of causal factors other than HIV that homosexual men may be exposed to because of their lifestyle.

Hellraiser, where is that information from?  I'm not sure where that fits in the context of this discussion, but it sure is the "icing on the cake" of this growing series of surprises in this thread!

Now, every time I think that the situation could not get murkier, it goes and gets murkier.  Every rule I thought existed seems to be turned upside down.  Here we have someone with 50 T-cells who appears to be healthy, someone who had 1400 T-cells and was in hospital with an OI within three months, someone on the life-saving meds who is dying, and now KS showing up in people who do not have HIV--for I assume that "persistently had no evidence of HIV infection" means they tested negative repeatedly.  

I'm sure that I am not the only one here who gets uncomfortable every time the word "lifestyle" gets used in the context of discussions of homosexuality.  But what aspects of homosexual activity or lifestyle could cause KS independently of HIV?  
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • Posts: 24,516
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2010, 10:10:49 PM »
What's the point of using the quote function if we can't tell who you're quoting?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Nestor

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  • Posts: 430
  • What we love, we shall grow to resemble.
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2010, 10:11:14 PM »
Quote
I started not feeling well about a month after my last lab. Cause of it crashing is unknown. Ruled as a fluke..

Thanks again. I am interested in your story because I know of someone else with a similar experience.  And what he has in common with you is three things: the extremely long period of non-progression, the extremely low VL, and the extreme suddenness of the crash, when it came.  I wonder if they all go together somehow.  

Quote
The lesson is that shit happens that's beyond your control.  Embrace it.

I think we all learned that the day we found out we had HIV!  But I think there might be a few more lessons.  One--from RR's story and that of the other person I mentioned--is, if you do turn out to be a LTNP, and it's been about twenty years....be on guard.  
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Nestor

  • Member
  • Posts: 430
  • What we love, we shall grow to resemble.
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2010, 10:22:15 PM »
Quote
What's the point of using the quote function if we can't tell who you're quoting?

Miss P, every passage that I quoted was not only drawn from this very conversation but from the last few posts in it.  Nobody who has been following this conversation would have any trouble remembering things that had just been said right before my reply to them. 

But, just in case anyone does have such trouble, it seems that in every case where I used the quote function, I also addressed the quoted person, by name, either immediately before or immediately after the quote, as in

Quote
Etay, I am so sorry to hear about these friends.

and

Quote
Hellraiser, where is that information from?

and

Quote
RR,

Thank you again for sharing your experience with us.

and even

Quote
Miss P, every passage that I quoted...etc. etc.

right above.

So, in order to claim to be unable to "tell whom I'm quoting", one would have not only not to have been following the immediately preceding conversation, but also to overlook these consistent clues. 


Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • Posts: 24,516
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2010, 10:29:57 PM »
That's terrible!  Do you mean that 1400 was your last CD4 count before the crash?  If so, how much time passed between it and the 52?  Or was that the average over the 21 years? 

Someone else I've met online had a similar case: an OI despite a tiny VL.  I'm really confused by that.

Oh dear -- I wonder who Nestor was quoting here.  Too bad he can't use the quote button.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,288
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2010, 10:35:47 PM »
Quote
Thanks again. I am interested in your story because I know of someone else with a similar experience.  And what he has in common with you is three things: the extremely long period of non-progression, the extremely low VL, and the extreme suddenness of the crash, when it came.  I wonder if they all go together somehow. 
ROFL, Nestor all I can say is it turned to AIDS pretty damn quick and I was to damn sick to care.

Offline Nestor

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  • Posts: 430
  • What we love, we shall grow to resemble.
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2010, 11:25:13 PM »
Quote
Oh dear -- I wonder who Nestor was quoting here.  Too bad he can't use the quote button.

Miss P, the statement I quoted was seperated from mine quoting it by exactly one post that was half a line long.  The original quote from Rapid Rod, and my quoting of it, and the one intervening post, could all fit together in the same computer screen.  Someone reading through the thread at a normal pace would read both the original statement and my response to it in about thirty seconds.

In other words, one would have to have the attention span of a moth or the short-term memory of an amoeba to have to "wonder whom Nestor was quoting there." 

Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2010, 11:26:20 PM »
In other words, one would have to have the attention span of a moth or the short-term memory of an amoeba to have to "wonder whom Nestor was quoting there." 

Nothing some flagyl won't fix. ;)

MtD

Offline Rev. Moon

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  • Smart ass faggot ©
Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2010, 11:33:29 PM »
What's up with amoebas tonight?
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline edfu

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2010, 08:15:49 AM »
You got a reference for this, Margaret?
MtD

I'm not Margaret or Hellraiser, but will this do, Louise?:

Kien AE, Saltzman BR, Cao YZ, et al.: Kaposi's sarcoma in HIV-negative homosexual men. Lancet 335 (8682): 168-9, 1990.  [PUBMED Abstract

It comes from the U.S. National Cancer Institute:

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/treatment/kaposis/HealthProfessional/page2#Section_13

P.S.  I forgot about this one:

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/999D3BD3-DA40-4442-B307-808F3AA9596D.asp
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 09:10:44 AM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline camille07

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2010, 08:27:30 AM »
In January of 2009 I had a cd4 of 184 with a cd4% of 26.  I was  into treatment, since the fall,  and the doc was baffled?  My numbers were increasing exponentially, or at least doubling up until that point.  But here's the catch; I was on a trial and the lab for the trial was different from the in-house lab at the clinic.  What the trial nurses found is that the trial lab was letting the specimens sit too long and the blood was dying off.  So, alot of patients had this unusual drop in cd4 numbers and percentage. (There's a technical term for this but I'm still on my first cup of coffee)  So now, am I considered having Aids because of a glitch by the lab?  I know it's only a label but I'm wondering if that's the situation.

Any thoughts?

Offline David_CA

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2010, 09:22:54 AM »
Miss P, the statement I quoted was seperated from mine quoting it by exactly one post that was half a line long.  The original quote from Rapid Rod, and my quoting of it, and the one intervening post, could all fit together in the same computer screen.  Someone reading through the thread at a normal pace would read both the original statement and my response to it in about thirty seconds.

In other words, one would have to have the attention span of a moth or the short-term memory of an amoeba to have to "wonder whom Nestor was quoting there." 

Nestor, some of us don't re-read entire threads ('reading through') every time we check back on them.  Sometimes, a few days have lapsed between reading them.  I also have a hard time following some of what you've quoted, and I have a pretty damned good attention span and a good memory... ADD and all!  If you'll use the 'insert quote' link on the posts you want to add to your posts, you can edit out the 'irrelevant' information there.  Seriously, it makes things easier to follow, that's all.
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
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Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #76 on: March 10, 2010, 10:00:04 AM »
...  Someone reading through the thread at a normal pace would read both the original statement and my response to it in about thirty seconds.

In other words, one would have to have the attention span of a moth or the short-term memory of an amoeba to have to "wonder whom Nestor was quoting there." 

Ditto David_NC.

And...my tolerance for the fact that the automatically quoted material is in even smaller print on a (lousy) dark purple background is only as a trade-off for easy reference to whence / whom / when the quote.    If you are going to strip off all the useful parts, for pity's sake, make it BIG.

A


"BIG is GOOD"    ;)
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #77 on: March 10, 2010, 10:22:38 AM »
In January of 2009 I had a cd4 of 184 with a cd4% of 26.  I was  into treatment, since the fall,  and the doc was baffled?  My numbers were increasing exponentially, or at least doubling up until that point.  But here's the catch; I was on a trial and the lab for the trial was different from the in-house lab at the clinic.  What the trial nurses found is that the trial lab was letting the specimens sit too long and the blood was dying off.  So, alot of patients had this unusual drop in cd4 numbers and percentage. (There's a technical term for this but I'm still on my first cup of coffee)  So now, am I considered having Aids because of a glitch by the lab?  I know it's only a label but I'm wondering if that's the situation.

Any thoughts?

WOW. Interesting situation.... Considering the lack of much difference between the two states and the medical advantages of being classified as AIDS, I would say milk-it if possible. However, I don't know if a lab-technician's fuck-up would classify you as such.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #78 on: March 10, 2010, 02:17:55 PM »
I'm not Margaret or Hellraiser, but will this do, Louise?:

Kien AE, Saltzman BR, Cao YZ, et al.: Kaposi's sarcoma in HIV-negative homosexual men. Lancet 335 (8682): 168-9, 1990.  [PUBMED Abstract

It comes from the U.S. National Cancer Institute:

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/treatment/kaposis/HealthProfessional/page2#Section_13

P.S.  I forgot about this one:

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/999D3BD3-DA40-4442-B307-808F3AA9596D.asp

Proves nothing. KS is known to occur in non-homosexual HIV negative populations too. Notably older men of Mediterranean and Ashkenazi Jewish backgrounds.

MtD

Offline edfu

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #79 on: March 10, 2010, 04:46:19 PM »
I prefer to believe the scientists and doctors who researched and wrote the two studies about gay men who do not correspond to the classic or HIV parameters, including Dr. Alvin Friedman-Kien--lead author of the "Lancet" study, the foremost KS expert in the U.S.--and the NIH's Cancer Institute.  I'm also convinced by my Irish HIV-negative friend with KS and by anecdotal reports from my NYC HIV dermatologist, an associate of Dr. Friedman-Kien's at NYU Medical Center, who also reports an increase in HIV-negative gay men outside the classic parameters with KS in recent years.   
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2010, 05:09:33 PM »
I prefer to believe the scientists and doctors who researched and wrote the two studies about gay men who do not correspond to the classic or HIV parameters, including Dr. Alvin Friedman-Kien--lead author of the "Lancet" study, the foremost KS expert in the U.S.--and the NIH's Cancer Institute.  I'm also convinced by my Irish HIV-negative friend with KS and by anecdotal reports from my NYC HIV dermatologist, an associate of Dr. Friedman-Kien's at NYU Medical Center, who also reports an increase in HIV-negative gay men outside the classic parameters with KS in recent years.   

Yeah well you believe whatever you want to believe Eddie. I would point out however that "the plural of anecdote is not data".

I think we might be discussing this in the wrong thread. Hellraiser had an attack of the vapours yesterday and misposted about KS in this thread.

MtD

Offline edfu

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2010, 05:57:29 PM »
You're right...this is in the wrong thread.  I was going to try to segue this over to the current "Kaposis [sic] sarcoma" thread, where I've already posted once today, but I haven't figured out a graceful way to do it.  It's become quite jumbled together here now. 

My last words here, however, must be to point out that I know full well the difference between data and anecdote.  The two studies I referenced, from "The Lancet" and "AIDS," contain data.  You asked Hellraiser for references, and I provided them.  The anecdotal material I added simply as lagniappe.
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline camille07

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2010, 06:52:04 AM »
Thanks Blackvingbear.  I would be interested to  get a definitive answer from my doctor regarding this or hear some other thoughts regarding the situation.

Hugs,

Camms

Offline edfu

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2010, 11:46:37 AM »
A laboratory mistake is an error, and any diagnosis based on that error is invalid. 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2010, 01:48:07 PM »
A laboratory mistake is an error, and any diagnosis based on that error is invalid. 

True, but the scientific community seems to be willing to follow errors on this one - once you are diagnosed as having A.I.D.S., no matter how healthy you are or what condition your system is in, the diagnosis sticks.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline jcelvis

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2010, 01:07:49 AM »
 

I talked about this with my doctor about a year ago.  I have various plans of spending a lot of time backpacking, and even joining the Peace Corps where I would be in some remote place for two years.  Would it be okay to go that long without having labs done?  She said that most people decline slowly and gradually and that as my numbers hadn't even begun to decline, the chances of my descending into what used to be called "full-blown AIDS" in the next couple of years would be quite slim.  Your case--and a couple of others like it--are a scary reminder of the exceptions to that rule. 


Good luck getting into the peace corp with an HIV + status, up until 2008 the peace corp kicked volunteers out of the program when they found out they were positive, luckily the ACLU stepped in but there issue only dealt with people who found out they were positive once they started in the program. They may not deny your application on grounds of being HIV +, but they will find another way not to accept you. The peace corp doesn't want to be responsible for your medical care.
Change the way you view the world, and the world around you changes.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2010, 09:20:56 AM »
True, but the scientific community seems to be willing to follow errors on this one - once you are diagnosed as having A.I.D.S., no matter how healthy you are or what condition your system is in, the diagnosis sticks.

That's not necessarily following an error.  There have been a number of studies linking the risk of some conditions to the lowest CD4 count for a patient -- google "CD4 nadir".  People who have had CD4 counts below 200 are more likely to have problems, even after the CD4 count recovers.

That's different from a lab error in measuring the CD4 count.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline edfu

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2010, 09:32:42 AM »
People who have had CD4 counts below 200 are more likely to have problems, even after the CD4 count recovers.

Thanks for explaining that.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 09:36:38 AM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2010, 03:26:19 PM »
That's not necessarily following an error.  There have been a number of studies linking the risk of some conditions to the lowest CD4 count for a patient -- google "CD4 nadir".  People who have had CD4 counts below 200 are more likely to have problems, even after the CD4 count recovers.

So, in a way, once you are sick you are forever viewed as sick even if you are healthy?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline edfu

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2010, 03:37:01 PM »
What part of "more likely to have problems" don't you understand?
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2010, 04:03:54 PM »
What part of "more likely to have problems" don't you understand?

No, I understand... Guess I was simply in denial since I've had my levels that low & like to think I'm in "tip-top" perfect health now.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline edfu

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2010, 04:09:46 PM »
I hope both you and I stay that way, but one never knows.... 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2010, 04:24:40 PM »
So, in a way, once you are sick you are forever viewed as sick even if you are healthy?

No, I understand... Guess I was simply in denial since I've had my levels that low & like to think I'm in "tip-top" perfect health now.

Well ... it's hard to live in a probabalistic world, but it would appear that your risk of bad events if you are in tip top shape but recovered from AIDS is higher than if you are in tip top shape but always kept your tcell counts at higher levels.  

It's still a lot better to have recovered than not.  In fact if you can get to and keep a tcell count over 500, a recent European study suggests you will have almost as good life chances as the average member of the population. Now that is not as good as the life chances of the part of the population that is in the best shape, but it is certainly worth striving for.  

So don't be in denial; denial is dangerous and you should be alert to the special risks you face as someone who had very low tcell counts.  But don't give up trying to improve your health either.  You have the ability to control a lot of your life outcomes if you choose to.

A
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2010, 06:19:43 PM »
It's still a lot better to have recovered than not.  In fact if you can get to and keep a tcell count over 500, a recent European study suggests you will have almost as good life chances as the average member of the population. Now that is not as good as the life chances of the part of the population that is in the best shape, but it is certainly worth striving for.

That's what I'm striving for - a lil' more reassuring being above 500. Kinda funny - it took me being deathly-ill to start taking care of myself. I joked one time with the local AIDS resource director that "it took death to make me start living."
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #94 on: March 13, 2010, 07:44:58 PM »
I joked one time with the local AIDS resource director that "it took death to make me start living."
and the congregation answers back, "amen". ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Okealyshire

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2010, 10:12:42 PM »
and the congregation answers back, "amen". ;)

Indeed.

Offline brian davis

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2010, 03:14:21 AM »
Well my clinic says once aids always aids . I say its just a bunch of symantic bullshit personally . SAME BUG either way . Anyway i just bought a screen printing machine and will be printing Tshirts that say HIV and PROUD on the front then on the back i will put a little slogan i made up right after i hit AIDS .

HIV
you cant see it
you cant tell it
and it CAN HAPPEN TO YOU

Offline edfu

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #97 on: March 15, 2010, 04:22:27 AM »
Hope your printing machine has apostrophes:  can't.  ;D
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline brian davis

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #98 on: March 15, 2010, 04:25:25 AM »
well im a bit more worried about the message than exact and proper english dude

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Aids vs. HIV
« Reply #99 on: March 15, 2010, 04:29:46 AM »
well im a bit more worried about the message than exact and proper english dude

Don't pay Edfu no mind Brian. That's just his way. :)

MtD

 


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