Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
E-newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr MySpace
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 19, 2014, 10:05:09 PM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 620420
  • Total Topics: 46742
  • Online Today: 283
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500  (Read 3136 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tommy246

  • member
  • Member
  • Posts: 435
Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« on: March 03, 2010, 09:57:33 AM »
I have just been reading the article on the home page by tim horn regarding the news coming out of the croi 2010 conference , basically saying that if we can keep our cd4 over 500 we can expect to live a full life expectancy. Just wondering what you folks generally think about that information
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline Jeton

  • Member
  • Posts: 85
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 10:15:45 AM »
I have just been reading the article on the home page by tim horn regarding the news coming out of the croi 2010 conference , basically saying that if we can keep our cd4 over 500 we can expect to live a full life expectancy. Just wondering what you folks generally think about that information

i think it's one more nail (of many, many more to come) in the coffin of the "wait to treat, let them suffer a bit first so they don't screw up their meds n give us all resistant virus!" ideology...

Offline Hellraiser

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,110
  • Semi-misanthropic
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 01:14:55 PM »
i think it's one more nail (of many, many more to come) in the coffin of the "wait to treat, let them suffer a bit first so they don't screw up their meds n give us all resistant virus!" ideology...

Wait to treat has more to do with the side effects of the drugs on your system than any group's consensus on the inability of HIV positive patients to remain adherent to their medications.

The points is how much damage will the virus do to your system over any given period of time versus how much damage will the drugs do to your system over any given period of time.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 01:17:48 PM by Hellraiser »

Online Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,182
  • 30 Years Poz
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 01:32:53 PM »
i think it's one more nail (of many, many more to come) in the coffin of the "wait to treat, let them suffer a bit first so they don't screw up their meds n give us all resistant virus!" ideology...

I suppose, if there was a coherent thought in your post, it would add to the thread, but I do not see one.  What does the suggestion of keeping CD4s above 500, with the goal of a normal life expectancy, have to do with giving us all a resistant virus?
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline Jeton

  • Member
  • Posts: 85
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 01:59:22 PM »
Wait to treat has more to do with the side effects of the drugs on your system than any group's consensus on the inability of HIV positive patients to remain adherent to their medications.

The points is how much damage will the virus do to your system over any given period of time versus how much damage will the drugs do to your system over any given period of time.

actually it doesn't...it just used to. in the last 5 years u see less mention of toxicity concerns n more mention of "will they take the meds seriously, or will they poorly adhere n produce resistant virus".

Offline Jeton

  • Member
  • Posts: 85
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 02:04:01 PM »
I suppose, if there was a coherent thought in your post, it would add to the thread, but I do not see one.  What does the suggestion of keeping CD4s above 500, with the goal of a normal life expectancy, have to do with giving us all a resistant virus?

what is it with some of u people with ur incredibly half-assed insults n poor reasoning skills? i certainly don't care what u see, but for those less catty than urself n in need of guidance, i'll say the following:

ur lowest cd4 count haunts u...the lower it goes, the harder it is to bring back up and damage to the inmmune system is more longterm and/or permanent. the best way to have cd4 counts over 500 is to KEEP them there, and not lot them sink below that number.

ur post count is not ur IQ, try to remember that. ::)

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 23,565
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 02:09:46 PM »
what is it with some of u people with ur incredibly half-assed insults n poor reasoning skills?

srsly
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,193
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 02:12:01 PM »
what is it with some of u people with ur incredibly half-assed insults n poor reasoning skills? i certainly don't care what u see, but for those less catty than urself n in need of guidance, i'll say the following:

ur lowest cd4 count haunts u...the lower it goes, the harder it is to bring back up and damage to the inmmune system is more longterm and/or permanent. the best way to have cd4 counts over 500 is to KEEP them there, and not lot them sink below that number.

ur post count is not ur IQ, try to remember that. ::)
Coming from someone that posts incorrect information over and over? Give me a break.

Online Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,182
  • 30 Years Poz
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2010, 02:15:00 PM »
what is it with some of u people with ur incredibly half-assed insults n poor reasoning skills? i certainly don't care what u see, but for those less catty than urself n in need of guidance, i'll say the following:

ur lowest cd4 count haunts u...the lower it goes, the harder it is to bring back up and damage to the inmmune system is more longterm and/or permanent. the best way to have cd4 counts over 500 is to KEEP them there, and not lot them sink below that number.

ur post count is not ur IQ, try to remember that. ::)

Wow, just wow. I ask a question and this is your response? Maybe you need to find another forum.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline Hellraiser

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,110
  • Semi-misanthropic
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 02:16:16 PM »
actually it doesn't...it just used to. in the last 5 years u see less mention of toxicity concerns n more mention of "will they take the meds seriously, or will they poorly adhere n produce resistant virus".

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

You are creating a strawman argument by falsely quoting some imaginary doctor.  The fact of the matter is that while toxicity is definitely DOWN amongst most medications there is still a reasonable risk of heart issues (Abacavir), kidney issues (Tenofivir) and liver issues (hell all of them?).  The point being that for 5-10 years most of these products are not immediately toxic but in the longterm the wear and tear might just be what kills us rather than the disease itself.  I'm 28 and currently taking Atripla if I remain on the same regimen for the rest of my life there are no current 30 year studies to tell me whether or not Tenofivir is going to knock out my kidneys by the time I'm 60.

You sir are just dead wrong.

Offline Tim Horn

  • Member
  • Posts: 800
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 02:47:17 PM »
what is it with some of u people with ur incredibly half-assed insults n poor reasoning skills? i certainly don't care what u see, but for those less catty than urself n in need of guidance, i'll say the following:

Hell, Jeton, what is it with you? Did you need read my request for you to chill in another thread earlier today?

Consider yourself warned. The next time you level a personal insult at someone -- and, no, the message YOU reported was not a personal insult, so please don't go pointing fingers -- you'll be on a time out. You're certainly not the first person who has entered these forums with a huge chip on his shoulder who may end up getting bounced real quick.

Offline tommy246

  • member
  • Member
  • Posts: 435
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2010, 03:05:03 PM »
Well  for my part being only diagnosed 14 months ago i find this information very encouraging and just goes to show how far the meds have improved over the years . As one poster says who knows what atripla might do over 30 years but its been going a good few years now and in general doing a fine job. New meds are coming along all the time and hopefully that trend will continue and bit by bit becoming less toxic . Anyway thanks for the update Tim .
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline Tim Horn

  • Member
  • Posts: 800
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2010, 03:07:32 PM »
One more thing...

While there are a number of studies concluding that "early" treatment -- before CD4s fall below 350 -- is a good idea, the study cited here isn't necessarily one of them. This has to do with getting and keeping CD4s above 500 while on treatment; it doesn't take into account when people actually started therapy (i.e., with either a low or high CD4 cell count nadir).

This study -- it does have a weakness in that it only followed patients for an average of 3.5 years and its conclusions are based on estimates, not hard morbidity and mortality data compared with the general population -- found encouraging results for those who both had low and moderate CD4 counts and eventually increased them to above 500 (and kept them there), as well as those who had higher CD4 counts upon starting treatment.

This is certainly one of many studies suggesting that ARV treatment works -- and works well. It isn't, however, study to prove when treatment should be started. Of course, people who delay treatment have a harder time getting their CD4s above 500, but for those who do, the calculations cited in this study suggest comparable life expectancy. At least among men -- women in this study still faced a disadvantage, no matter where their CD4s were at after three years of treatment.
 

Offline Jeton

  • Member
  • Posts: 85
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2010, 03:51:22 PM »
Hell, Jeton, what is it with you? Did you need read my request for you to chill in another thread earlier today?

Consider yourself warned. The next time you level a personal insult at someone -- and, no, the message YOU reported was not a personal insult, so please don't go pointing fingers -- you'll be on a time out. You're certainly not the first person who has entered these forums with a huge chip on his shoulder who may end up getting bounced real quick.

warn away, nuke my account...u r willfully blind to the more or less continual attack i've been under in these forums, and clearly u find managing agreeable personalities preferable to open debate about valid science and research. *while i'm still here*, i will not simply absorb attacks, including one particularly venomous queen describing my social life in the NYC poz community as limited to "a stuyvesant park bench".

Offline Jeton

  • Member
  • Posts: 85
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 03:53:47 PM »
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

You are creating a strawman argument by falsely quoting some imaginary doctor.  The fact of the matter is that while toxicity is definitely DOWN amongst most medications there is still a reasonable risk of heart issues (Abacavir), kidney issues (Tenofivir) and liver issues (hell all of them?).  The point being that for 5-10 years most of these products are not immediately toxic but in the longterm the wear and tear might just be what kills us rather than the disease itself.  I'm 28 and currently taking Atripla if I remain on the same regimen for the rest of my life there are no current 30 year studies to tell me whether or not Tenofivir is going to knock out my kidneys by the time I'm 60.

You sir are just dead wrong.

the longterm toxicities of current first line therapies will remain under investigation, and the overall impact of those toxicities will remain unclear without years of more data. there is data on the longterm toxicity of unchecked viremia, however...for most, it isn't pretty.

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2010, 04:37:12 PM »
warn away, nuke my account...u r willfully blind to the more or less continual attack i've been under in these forums, and clearly u find managing agreeable personalities preferable to open debate about valid science and research. *while i'm still here*, i will not simply absorb attacks, including one particularly venomous queen describing my social life in the NYC poz community as limited to "a stuyvesant park bench".

Well, OK, you asked for it, you got it. Seven day Time Out.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Lis

  • Member
  • Posts: 593
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2010, 05:22:50 PM »
to go back to the post.... Life exp. and quality of life are 2 different things.I am one of the few who's CD4 counts never get above 300.. If you guys remember me ,Ive been poz since 86.. started meds only after PCP , since the meds.. be it HIV related or Med related I have dealt with Graves , breast lumps, HTN, and the list goes..

My point... we can not let our selves be marginalized... just the fact we have a pulse is not good enough


 :-* miss you guys....
poz 1986....

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,667
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2010, 06:09:08 PM »
:-* miss you guys....

  Miss you too Lis, long time no see...
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Online Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,182
  • 30 Years Poz
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2010, 06:11:10 PM »
Hey Sweetie,

Hope you are doing well and great to hear from you.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline Lis

  • Member
  • Posts: 593
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 06:37:35 PM »
Kill and Skee... you zexy dudes...  :o  do you get what I said or did I pull another Lis..(thats where Moffie has to interpret)
poz 1986....

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,160
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2010, 06:54:37 PM »
Kill and Skee... you zexy dudes...  :o  do you get what I said or did I pull another Lis..(thats where Moffie has to interpret)

Hey Lillibet!  :-*

MtD

Offline Lis

  • Member
  • Posts: 593
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2010, 07:19:46 PM »
Matty.. Ann.. Newt..Kill.. Moffie..Alan Lisa .scooter(founder of gathering idea) and all those that I missed.. you saved my life, and my belief in man kind..

HIJACK... I know.. but i couldn't stop myself   :P
poz 1986....

Offline azprince

  • Member
  • Posts: 153
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2010, 10:28:45 PM »
Hell, Jeton, what is it with you? Did you need read my request for you to chill in another thread earlier today?

Consider yourself warned. The next time you level a personal insult at someone -- and, no, the message YOU reported was not a personal insult, so please don't go pointing fingers -- you'll be on a time out. You're certainly not the first person who has entered these forums with a huge chip on his shoulder who may end up getting bounced real quick.
Maybe he is having a bad time, we should try to be more passionate about people" I am not suggesting tolerating insults or abusive language" but at least correcting them in right way: a PM asking the person if he is ok , or if he is having some bad time, HIV is a very stressful issue that could drive some people crazy some days, and few words of comfort could do a lot more than warnings
Cheers
I have to admit : the good thing is that from now on;  I have no option but to succeed , still its ok to worry :))

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2010, 10:51:23 PM »
Maybe he is having a bad time, we should try to be more passionate about people" I am not suggesting tolerating insults or abusive language" but at least correcting them in right way: a PM asking the person if he is ok , or if he is having some bad time, HIV is a very stressful issue that could drive some people crazy some days, and few words of comfort could do a lot more than warnings
Cheers

Read the prior posting history, I think it kinda speaks for itself  ;D

"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,606
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2010, 01:45:35 AM »
This is the big debate I have daily.  I wonder how much better I would feel on meds.  I read studies saying meds could cause issues---organ damage.  Then I read studies saying untreated HIV could cause damage to the same organs as well as immune damage.  Some docs tell me to wait and others say to start.  When I've asked Dr. Gallant or Dr. Young from thebody questions, they have said, "Why don't you just start meds?"  It seems they are big believers in starting meds very early. 

I guess it just comes down to starting when it is right for you?  It is a very hard decision.  If I knew that my numbers would be at a point in a 6 months or a year where I needed to start, then I may just start now.  It would seem this short amount of time would get the virus under control, and 1 extra year of meds wouldn't be that big a deal. 

I think I'm waiting on some definitive study that will tell me what to do.  I realize that study probably isn't coming anytime soon. 

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,160
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2010, 01:58:14 AM »
The virus will far more damage to your squishy bits than the medications will. As evidence I cite the 1980s.

MtD

Offline tommy246

  • member
  • Member
  • Posts: 435
Re: Life expentancy normal with cd4 over 500
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2010, 02:39:27 AM »
I agree knowing what i know now i would of insisted in starting meds earlier with such a low % .My doc seemed happy to let me hover around 16 % as i had high cd 4 count but i ended up in hospital . I certainly worried more when i was off meds about all the ifs and buts and now feel alot better and have piece of mind that my cd4 is on the up and viral load is on the down. ( I will confirm this later as im going for my results this morning).I was also very concerned about inflamation and the damage that does with my immune system in overdrive 24/7. Thats my thoughts but were all different and when to start meds is a very individual situation. i guess it depends how you feel body and mind . The bottom line is start before yur numbers get to low or your viral load gets to high.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.