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Author Topic: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!  (Read 36750 times)

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Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #100 on: March 03, 2010, 10:58:05 AM »
it appears that a sizable segment of the poz community isn't represented here, based on my own experience immersed in NYC's poz community. given the reflexive but outdated pc groupthink in here, that's not surprising.

basically, the number of "magnetic" couples going raw based on consistently undetectable viral load will continue to grow, someone will eventually get around to studying this sub-population en-masse over time, and some new hybrid orthodoxy will emerge for some people here to internalize n bark at other people. :D

i hope Past (the OP) got useful information, despite his parting hissyfit. all is not peace n love in this world...

Online RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #101 on: March 03, 2010, 11:01:42 AM »
Just my 2 cent.  I have been positive for 22 years, meds for 14 and been with my negative partner for 13 years.  Even though I have been Undetectable for 3 years, I would never, NEVER, put my partner is a risky situation.  My love for him is too strong and I could not live with myself knowing I gave the man that I love more than anything in this work, HIV.

Sorry if I offended anyone!

Jay
Jay, no one in there right mind would play russian roulette with someone else's life.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #102 on: March 03, 2010, 11:04:47 AM »
it appears that a sizable segment of the poz community isn't represented here, based on my own experience immersed in NYC's poz community.

No dear, it just means that the Stuyvesant Town park bench is a relative bubble.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #103 on: March 03, 2010, 01:44:20 PM »
I had a similar question, but there is just a bit too much caustic malevolence here to get a real answer. No offense to anyone, I just do not wish to become a target by asking a question.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2010, 01:59:46 PM »
I had a similar question, but there is just a bit too much caustic malevolence here to get a real answer. No offense to anyone, I just do not wish to become a target by asking a question.

You're always welcome to ask for advice and mostly it'll be helpful stuff.  You may want to start your own thread for it however as this one is going down in flames.

Offline BSNRNgloria

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2010, 02:17:25 PM »
Being HIV positive is such a big deal. I don't think you value yourself if you KNOW your health would be compromised yet your STILL concedering trying it.

Many people didn't have a choice of receiving HIV but you do.

Ask yourself this:
Do want to wake up everyday of my life fighting for my life EVEN if this relationship ends?

Fighting through pain, sickness, taking pills, going to the doctor often, being discriminated against at time, cancer plaguing your organs, night sweets...

Your boyfriend can't SAVE you from this, neither can you.

I recently lost my mom to these symptoms...would you like to experience ANY of this?

You are NOT an exception to the rules buddie!

Offline sdguyloveslife

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2010, 02:30:47 PM »
I had a similar question, but there is just a bit too much caustic malevolence here to get a real answer. No offense to anyone, I just do not wish to become a target by asking a question.

Why not just try starting your own thread with your own question and steer clear of this thread altogether?  Hope that suggestion helps! 
Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2010, 03:11:07 PM »
You're always welcome to ask for advice and mostly it'll be helpful stuff.  You may want to start your own thread for it however as this one is going down in flames.

True, but it is relevant as I am also in a sero-discordant relationship and have ED problems with condoms - YET this does not mean I would ever attempt to infect the love of my life. One incident where the condom broke as I "came" ended with me cowering in a corner crying and manically begging him to "flush himself out" and let me take him to the hospital so he might get some sort of emergency preventative measure. He merely shrugged it off and said that if it happens, it happens. Since then, I have attempted to get him "into" kink as an alternative to penetrative sex - to no avail. What is someone in THAT situation supposed to do when your partner (the negative one) prefers penetration - watch the relationship go downhill and eventually die because of sexual-frustration?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2010, 03:17:44 PM »
True, but it is relevant as I am also in a sero-discordant relationship and have ED problems with condoms - YET this does not mean I would ever attempt to infect the love of my life. One incident where the condom broke as I "came" ended with me cowering in a corner crying and manically begging him to "flush himself out" and let me take him to the hospital so he might get some sort of emergency preventative measure. He merely shrugged it off and said that if it happens, it happens. Since then, I have attempted to get him "into" kink as an alternative to penetrative sex - to no avail. What is someone in THAT situation supposed to do when your partner (the negative one) prefers penetration - watch the relationship go downhill and eventually die because of sexual-frustration?

It is what it is.  I think someone who shrugs off the potential of becoming positive is taking the disease a little bit too lightly.  I too would react very very poorly if I was having sex with someone who was negative and the condom broke.  The idea is however that not using condoms is creating more risk than is necessary.  I will never again have unprotected sex with someone who is not positive because I would never want to pass the virus to anyone else.  Condoms remain the most effective way to prevent transmission.  I would say having your viral load suppressed and having unprotected sex is somewhat akin to advocating the rhythm method for birth control.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #109 on: March 03, 2010, 03:23:10 PM »
True, but it is relevant as I am also in a sero-discordant relationship and have ED problems with condoms - YET this does not mean I would ever attempt to infect the love of my life. One incident where the condom broke as I "came" ended with me cowering in a corner crying and manically begging him to "flush himself out" and let me take him to the hospital so he might get some sort of emergency preventative measure. He merely shrugged it off and said that if it happens, it happens. Since then, I have attempted to get him "into" kink as an alternative to penetrative sex - to no avail. What is someone in THAT situation supposed to do when your partner (the negative one) prefers penetration - watch the relationship go downhill and eventually die because of sexual-frustration?

keep urself undetectable and free of other std's, n make sure u n he communicate continually about risks an attitudes towards risk. this can't be something he risks but decides to blame u for years down the road. as i said in my first post in this thread, i personally have avoided relationships with neg guys for this very reason.

to be blunt, kink is a poor substitute...everything is a poor substitute for the real deal. if u both feel the relationship is permanent and u can maintain strictly undetectable viral load, fuck his brains out n seed his ass deep unless n until his attitude changes. enjoy it while it lasts, especially if it lasts forever.

the fact is that going raw with consistently undetectable viral load is simply LESS risky than sero-discordant rubber-sex b4 the HAART era. given a hypothetical do or die choice of either, i'd advise my own mother to take a raw consistently undetectable load over taking penetration from someone with a 300,000 viral load using a rubber...not even close.

whatever u both decide, best of luck to u.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #110 on: March 03, 2010, 03:31:37 PM »
I would say having your viral load suppressed and having unprotected sex is somewhat akin to advocating the rhythm method for birth control.
I don't believe it is merely the discussion of barebacking sero-discordantly that is the problem here - just being honest that condoms DON'T work as well as people have been programmed to believe, are susceptible to breakage, more often than not result in a limp-dick for many guys - and that they are NOT "the magic answer".
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #111 on: March 03, 2010, 03:31:57 PM »
the fact is that going raw with consistently undetectable viral load is simply LESS risky than sero-discordant rubber-sex b4 the HAART era.

Actually that's not a fact.  That's your opinion.  Please don't misrepresent your opinion as fact.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #112 on: March 03, 2010, 03:34:12 PM »
the fact is that going raw with consistently undetectable viral load is simply LESS risky than sero-discordant rubber-sex b4 the HAART era.

From what I have heard/read, there is 1 case of an undetectable guy passing the virus to a negative guy. Anyone have more info on that case?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2010, 03:35:18 PM »
Actually that's not a fact.  That's your opinion.  Please don't misrepresent your opinion as fact.

This is the internet - it's ALL just opinions.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2010, 03:35:38 PM »
I don't believe it is merely the discussion of barebacking sero-discordantly that is the problem here - just being honest that condoms DON'T work as well as people have been programmed to believe, are susceptible to breakage, more often than not result in a limp-dick for many guys - and that they are NOT "the magic answer".


It is the issue here though.  The OP wants to know >What We Think< about him barebacking his partner who is positive.  I think it's potentially one of the worst possible decisions he could make if he wants to remain HIV negative.  A condom while not completely removing all risk, does a damn good job of removing most of the risk from the situation.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2010, 03:38:10 PM »
It is the issue here though.  The OP wants to know >What We Think< about him barebacking his partner who is positive.  I think it's potentially one of the worst possible decisions he could make if he wants to remain HIV negative.  A condom while not completely removing all risk, does a damn good job of removing most of the risk from the situation.

so does being consistently undetectable...n it does it better. like i said much earlier, i'll take the Swiss Health Authority over u n ur clique any day.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2010, 03:41:46 PM »
This is the internet - it's ALL just opinions.


wow
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2010, 03:52:51 PM »
wow

Sad, but it IS true - kind of a "show me your proof......and any alternate proof to the contrary so I can judge for myself" situation.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Ann

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2010, 03:54:55 PM »
so does being consistently undetectable...n it does it better. like i said much earlier, i'll take the Swiss Health Authority over u n ur clique any day.

The Swiss Study you keep bringing up did NOT look at anal sex, it only looked at vaginal. The  risk of damage to both anal and penile tissue is greater during anal intercourse and until there is a similar study looking at anal, you cannot use the results of the Swiss study as evidence that the risk of transmission dramatically lower in anal as well.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2010, 03:56:57 PM »
The Swiss Study you keep bringing up did NOT look at anal sex, it only looked at vaginal. The  risk of damage to both anal and penile tissue is greater during anal intercourse and until there is a similar study looking at anal, you cannot use the results of the Swiss study as evidence that the risk of transmission dramatically lower in anal as well.

Is there possibly a study examining the difference in tissue and transmission differences?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2010, 03:57:22 PM »
Sad, but it IS true - kind of a "show me your proof......and any alternate proof to the contrary so I can judge for myself" situation.

Not all sources have the same validity.  The internet isn't really any different than the real world in that respect, that was my point. 
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2010, 03:59:51 PM »
Not all sources have the same validity.  The internet isn't really any different than the real world in that respect, that was my point. 

TRUE. Alright, how are we determining validity? How popular results are with medical professionals or documented evidence in excess?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2010, 04:04:19 PM »
The Swiss Study you keep bringing up did NOT look at anal sex, it only looked at vaginal. The  risk of damage to both anal and penile tissue is greater during anal intercourse and until there is a similar study looking at anal, you cannot use the results of the Swiss study as evidence that the risk of transmission dramatically lower in anal as well.

to my knowledge the Swiss study specified sero-discordant heterosexual couples with the poz partner being consistently undetectable, free of other std's, and strictly adherent to HAART...i'm not aware that the statement specified vaginal intercourse only. however, it is needlessly pedantic to assume that homosexual couples and anal intercourse involve different virology from heterosexual couples, only different biophysics. the rectum is certainly more delicate than the vaginal canal, and their blood flow is similar, so one would expect the mathematics of infectivity in that case to be the "1 in 100,000" risk the Swiss described, divided by however much greater the risk of injury to the rectal wall is over the vaginal wall.

it is reasonable to assume rectal tissue is not 100,00 times more likely to sustain injury, or even 100 times more likely...thus the thrust of the Swiss statement remains logically consistent: whatever sexual practice u perform n whatever the gender of ur partner, the lower ur viral load, the less infectious u r, all other factors being equal.

Offline Sebastian1969

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2010, 04:06:16 PM »
Past,
I am like you, boyfriend poz and I am negative.  I feel more comfortable using condoms all of the time with anal sex.  You guys need to do what make you guys feel comfortable.  My boyfriend would be beside himself if I were to become positive from him, especially knowing what we know.  I understand that chances are higher when you are on the receiving end than the giving end, but for us we decided the chance wasn't worth it for either of us.  I do not want to get HIV but more than that he does not want to pass along HIV to me, we care too much about eachother to put the other in that situation.
Keep trying different condoms, not all feel the same and they are thinner, stronger and feel better now than 5 years ago.  Also, as someone mentioned, try a cock ring-they work.  Keep comunication open with your boyfriend and talk to him about it, the brain is a powerful tool and there may be some training involved, but you can train yourselves to be very comfortable with having a condom on and can train your body to not go limp when wearing one.

Offline Ann

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2010, 04:13:16 PM »
Is there possibly a study examining the difference in tissue and transmission differences?

I'll have to look and see if there are any studies such as you describe, but it's not rocket science. The lining of the rectum is very, very much thinner than the vagina and therefore is much easier to damage. Damaged tissue, especially if it is torn, gives hiv a direct route into the bloodstream.

The penis is also more prone to damage during anal due to the tightness and lack of natural lube, especially if the foreskin is present. Making sure enough lube is used if you do bareback will help decrease the risk of damage to both top and bottom.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm pointing this fact out about the Swiss Study because I'm anti-anal, I'm not. I'm versatile. ;) I know first-hand that the anus is more prone to damage during intercourse than the vagina.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2010, 11:50:01 PM »
I'll have to look and see if there are any studies such as you describe, but it's not rocket science. The lining of the rectum is very, very much thinner than the vagina and therefore is much easier to damage. Damaged tissue, especially if it is torn, gives hiv a direct route into the bloodstream.

The penis is also more prone to damage during anal due to the tightness and lack of natural lube, especially if the foreskin is present. Making sure enough lube is used if you do bareback will help decrease the risk of damage to both top and bottom.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm pointing this fact out about the Swiss Study because I'm anti-anal, I'm not. I'm versatile. ;) I know first-hand that the anus is more prone to damage during intercourse than the vagina.

Thanks for the info..
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline wizardofaz

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #126 on: March 04, 2010, 08:45:45 AM »
I see three pages of posts already, so you've probably got more than enough insight... and it all seems to says "NO, this is WRONG".

I am also in a discordant relationship, but _I_ am the one who is poz.  I also have trouble 'getting it up' long enough to use a condom and/or while using them.

Does that mean I would subject my partner to possibly living with this disease - yes, DISEASE, potentially fatal - for the sake of getting it up and getting off - inside him?

"oops, sorry honey... guess I got too excited.  But you know how much I love you".

Even with an early withdrawal, you are taking far too much of a chance, if you are actually considering this.  All the posts I have read have pointed this out, I do not need to reiterate redundant information.

I would look at two things on a more personal level:

1.  The type of person who would ask this of another, and

2.  The type of person who would consider taking this risk for another person's sexual gratification.

Low self-esteem has always been an issue in my own life, so I know I am not just proffering an opinion on something I have no personal experience with.  If you are willing to even consider taking this risk, for the sake of his climax, or your love, or the relationship, or for an unhealthy attachment to it/him...

...you might want to consider some therapy to address these issues. 

This is NOT a dig or an insult.  Most people raised in the rather twisted moral and social values of our western society could benefit from some counseling and personal, inner work.

I know I did.

Offline mecch

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #127 on: March 04, 2010, 09:34:42 AM »
He merely shrugged it off and said that if it happens, it happens. Since then, I have attempted to get him "into" kink as an alternative to penetrative sex - to no avail. What is someone in THAT situation supposed to do when your partner (the negative one) prefers penetration - watch the relationship go downhill and eventually die because of sexual-frustration?

1) There is "cool" but your bf is too cool - it's too casual - he needs to talk to you or an objective outsider about if he really is so ambivalent about seroconverting.

2) Even if he doesn't care much if he seroconverts, obviously this would make you very unhappy so maybe there is a problem in the relationship even if he stays negative.

3)  Nobody ever died of sexual frustration - but you could ruin the relationship if you don't figure out a mutually acceptable sex repertoire for the future.

Seems like you are at a cross roads with this guy, sexually.  You can ignore it but why ignore it.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline KeesRuemke

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #128 on: March 04, 2010, 01:37:25 PM »
The Swiss Statement (it is NOT a study but a statement or an expert opinion with a review of studies) DOES cover anal sex. The studies reviewed were on vaginal sex, but the statement is also based on the absence (at that time) of evidence of transmissions under the conditions they mentioned. The absence of evidence is also about anal sex.
Those conditions are:
* Undetectable VL > 6 months under ART
* Being adherent and under regular care
* Not having an other STD
Read also the accompanying comment on the Swiss Statement:
http://www.saez.ch/pdf_f/2008/2008-05/2008-05-085.PDF

“S’appuyant sur des données épidémiologiques et biologiques, la Commission est parvenue à la conclusion qu’une thérapie antivirale bien menée rend le risque à tel point négligeable qu’aucun cas de ce genre n’a été décrit à ce jour.”


Meanwhile one report of transmission under the Swiss conditions is published:
http://www.intmedpress.com/serveFile.cfm?sUID=8be42e39-7915-4b36-929c-0f1a603e989e
The author of this publication backs the Swiss Statement however, as long it is not claimed the risk is zero under these conditions.

Feel free to find other cases of transmission under the circumstances.

RE: the risk of transmission under without condoms and with a UD VL and transmission with 100% condoms w/o ART, this might be of the same order of a magnitude.
In a comment on an Australian critique by Wilson et al. on the Swiss Statement (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18657710)
Garnett and Gazzard point out the risk is basically the same:
http://www.who.int/hiv/events/artprevention/garnett.pdf

My 2 cents: if you say that unprotected anal sex under the Swiss conditions is dangerous, you have to say that protected anal sex w/o ART is dangerous as well.

Kees
(Netherlands)




Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #129 on: March 04, 2010, 01:56:17 PM »
We did say that protected sex was still a risk, if you read back.  I wouldn't equate them to the same level of risk however.

If the virus never touches you you cannot contract it.  That's what the thin layer of latex does.  It fails if it breaks or slips off.  I've never had one do that when I was using them.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2010, 11:32:10 AM »
1) There is "cool" but your bf is too cool - it's too casual - he needs to talk to you or an objective outsider about if he really is so ambivalent about seroconverting.

2) Even if he doesn't care much if he seroconverts, obviously this would make you very unhappy so maybe there is a problem in the relationship even if he stays negative.

3)  Nobody ever died of sexual frustration - but you could ruin the relationship if you don't figure out a mutually acceptable sex repertoire for the future.

Seems like you are at a cross roads with this guy, sexually.  You can ignore it but why ignore it.


NOPE, wrong again....

We don't really have relationship problems outside of this.. and DO love each other a great deal. To you jaded, cynical types who will swear love isn't real and will feel a need to laugh, have fun with that.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #131 on: March 05, 2010, 11:32:56 AM »
It fails if it breaks or slips off.  I've never had one do that when I was using them.

Again, you are extraordinarily lucky then.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #132 on: March 05, 2010, 11:34:18 AM »
The Swiss Statement (it is NOT a study but a statement or an expert opinion with a review of studies) DOES cover anal sex.
* Undetectable VL > 6 months under ART
* Being adherent and under regular care
* Not having an other STD
Read also the accompanying comment on the Swiss Statement:
http://www.saez.ch/pdf_f/2008/2008-05/2008-05-085.PDF


Thank you for this...
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #133 on: March 05, 2010, 11:36:13 AM »
Seems like you are at a cross roads with this guy, sexually.  You can ignore it but why ignore it.

Not quite, nope.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #134 on: March 08, 2010, 02:45:53 PM »
Hi Past:
Sorry you feel the way you do about the discussion in the thread you originated.
Your initial opening post contained these words:

"Any advice?
Anyone in serodiscordant relationships? Would unprotected sex with my bf be an insane decision?"

I looked up the definition of advice:
"recommendation about action: somebody's opinion about what another person should do"

I believe, if you read through the responses to your posts that is what you got - advice (recommendations and opinions)
Now, if there was something else you were seeking then it would be your responsibility to identify that and go from there (i.e. "not looking for advice, just wanted to hear from other people who are okay with not using condoms with a positive, undetectable person", etc.) -- believe me when I say that I am not saying that to be flippant with you.  I really just feel that you got frustrated at the responses and conversation that your initial post generated, but that is what happens when a great number of people are posed a question that specifically asks for advice -- there are a great number of opinions that you will get each either supported or in some cases not supported by facts - but remember that opinion isn't always fact - it is just that, opinion.
If you ask for a advice and get frustrated it is something like asking someone to loan you $5 and when they say no you get upset --  if you get upset you really weren't asking - you were demanding/commanding.  So, if you truly were seeking advice and you get different opinions then don't be frustrated; if you are frustrated then maybe it wasn't actually advice you were seeking, but approval for a decision that you have already made up your mind about (neither wrong with either, but different results in regards to how you will feel after you've made a post and people have given input.)   
All the best


I got a few responses that actually gave advice, and a few that gave no advice but did give opinions... and I said thank you for that. None really helped me too much but I still was appreciative of those people's time. However, in response to your confusion, I was frustrated because the majority of all posts were neither advice or opinion. Instead I got plenty of judgemental assumptions or responses like "oh your boyfriend doesn't love you!"

This became an argument (not debate or discussion) about lube, condoms, why my boyfriend doesn't love me, how stupid I must be and everything else except what I had asked about in the first place (experience with serodiscordant relationships or with undetectability and unprotected sex).
This problem I am having is incredibly serious and stressful for me, yet so many didn't even see that and instead made this thread a competition to be "right" and look smarter than or bash the poster before them. Instead of advice I saw name-calling and self-proclaimed-HIV-experts saying why this or that person is SO wrong. Since when was this about being mr. right or wrong?
This whole thing sucked. Don't even know why I just logged back in.
 ???

Offline Joe K

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2010, 03:18:05 PM »
Hey Past,

I've been in a sero-discordant relationship and I can empathize with the concerns that you have. Unfortunately, I can't suggest what you might do, only what my partner and I decided to do. We always used condoms for two reasons. So that he did not become infected and I minimized the possibility of my infecting him. For us, it came down to our shared love and respect for each other and it was the choice that we made, together, that we believed to be best for us. If I were to offer you any advice, it would involve staying true to yourself and that should include protecting yourself from HIV.

Personally, I could not be in a relationship with anyone who would suggest, that I risk my life, over sex. I empathize with the issue of condoms, but we are talking about a life here, yours. If he were my partner, I would encourage him to explore different ways to remain hard, using a condom and I would never accept his risking my health, just to seek his own sexual gratification. That is just not something that you do, to someone that you love. Again, that's me, but I think there are many options you can explore, that do not include risking your health.

I cannot help but think, based on what you describe, on how the only proposed solution to the condom issue, is not to use them, as against conditioning so use becomes second nature. It is not love to ever ask your lover to risk their life, needlessly. I'm not sure what it is part of, but that is not love, no matter how you might define it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:20:39 PM by killfoile »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2010, 03:50:49 PM »

I got a few responses that actually gave advice, and a few that gave no advice but did give opinions... and I said thank you for that. None really helped me too much but I still was appreciative of those people's time. However, in response to your confusion, I was frustrated because the majority of all posts were neither advice or opinion. Instead I got plenty of judgemental assumptions or responses like "oh your boyfriend doesn't love you!"

   To be honest some of those "oh your boyfriend doesn't love you" responses are the same exact thing I would tell my daughter if her man was to put her health at risk, be it in his speeding car or sex without condoms.  Hell no I don't take into consideration all the nice things he does for her, how he looks lovingly in her eyes when they kiss, how he buys her favorite chocolate on Fridays...  I don't see none of that, just like none of us see what endears you to the man who wants to engage in unprotected sex, only you know of that. 

   Family, friends, and outsiders never know all the dynamics of one's relationship, so it always amazes me how disappointed people are in the advice they get concerning their own relationship.... which of course was advice they asked for.

   So now the decision is in your hands, we've given our asked for unwanted advice on the matter.

    Good luck!

 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline xman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #137 on: March 08, 2010, 05:28:36 PM »
From my personal point of view this thread has a lot of missinterpretations. Treatment as prevention is actually a hot point in the HIV research field. In fact there's a big trial ongoing which should give some answers this summer and it is focussed exactly on serodiscordant heterosexual copies in which 1 of the partners is positive. Facts demonstrates so far that HAART is very effective in reducing HIV transmission and the scientific community is moving foward to make treatment as prevention a widely accepted possibility to stop or to dramatically reduce the spread of HIV.
That condoms aren't effective enough to stop the disease is obvious since HIV is still around us. We can judge and condemn the lack of condom use but the fact remains that the vast majority of people are denying condoms. HAART has the chance to contribute in HIV prevention very well. It's estimated that if all HIV infected people would be put on HAART the rate of new infections would decrease by 80%. This statement takes in account also the HAART alone situations in which no condom is used.
In the following link an interesting statement of Joel Gallant on this issue:
http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/q_a/patient/hiv_transmission_and_prevention/ud_v_condom.html?contentInstanceId=512450&siteId=7151
sign the petition launched by the aids policy project addressed to the nih aimed to increase the money needed to find the cure:

http://www.aidspolicyproject.org/petition_for_the_nih

we can make a difference and we need to fight. please support them! it doesn't cost you anything. they need it now more than ever!

Offline Moffie65

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #138 on: March 09, 2010, 12:02:07 PM »
Past,

I am one that stated that your boyfriend doesn't love you if he wants or insists on sex without a condom. 

I stand by that because if he was placing a six bullet gun into your vagina/anus, and it only had five bullets in it; the same thing could be stated. 

I stand by my assertion that he is more horny than in love, kick his ass to the curb, before he gives you a sentence of living with HIV/AIDS for the rest of your natural life.  On the other hand, if you are over 70 years of age, enjoy!
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Jeff G

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #139 on: March 09, 2010, 12:26:16 PM »
Past
I think someone suggested here that maybe it would be a good idea if your bf joined the conversation . I think that would be an excellent idea . I'm not saying this so we can beat up on him although I'm quite confident it would be an intense exchange.... but after all your health and well being are at stake so it should be .

Offline xman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #140 on: March 09, 2010, 05:25:21 PM »
I stand by that because if he was placing a six bullet gun into your vagina/anus, and it only had five bullets in it; the same thing could be stated.

So my penis is like a Magnum 44 or a rocket launcher? LOL

Although HIV disease is a serious condition I don't agree with your statement. I think, and most specialists would agree, that making those comparisons are quite counterproductive and simply wrong. If we talk about HIV in the developed world (at least for those civil and democratic nations where therapy is even partially free), the infection is no more considered a death sentence.

If we continue to put HIV on the same level of death or arms than all the efforts to give hope and even a perspective to all of us infected would be for nothing, not to mention the criminalization and stigma which continues to spread which is actually more dangerous than the virus itself.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 02:08:38 PM by xman »
sign the petition launched by the aids policy project addressed to the nih aimed to increase the money needed to find the cure:

http://www.aidspolicyproject.org/petition_for_the_nih

we can make a difference and we need to fight. please support them! it doesn't cost you anything. they need it now more than ever!

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2010, 05:50:10 PM »
So my penis is like a Magnum 44 or a rocket launcher? LOL

Although HIV disease is a serious condition I don't agree with your statement. I think, and most specialists would agree, that making those comparisons are quite counterproductive and simply wrong. If we talk about HIV in the developed world (at least for those civil and democratic nations where therapy is even partially free), the infection is no more considered a death sentence.

If we continue to put HIV on the same level of death or armor than all the efforts to give hope and even a perspective to all of us infected would be for nothing, not to mention the criminalization and stigma which continues to spread which is actually more dangerous than the virus itself.


But saying that isn't politically-correct and doesn't promote an agenda! *snicker*
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Boze

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #142 on: May 09, 2010, 07:46:18 AM »
I've been researching this topic of late and think it's worth adding the following snippet. The Australian response to the Swiss statement said the following in their discussion:

“under our assumptions, the effectiveness of treatment in reducing the risk of
HIV transmission per sexual act was about the same as has been reported for condoms.

Although we agree that effective antiretroviral treatment which leads to undetectable viral load is likely to have a substantial effect on reducing infectiousness, our analyses suggest that it should not replace condoms.”

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/C144FC4F-2707-4D1F-87DE-68B35D4EA1D0.asp

So while disagreeing with the Swiss (from a public policy perspective I imagine) they actually said that someone on therapy with UD VL has the same risk of transmission as someone who is NOT on therapy while wearing a condom.
Therefore if you want to reduce ALL possible risk - ARV + condom is the route.  But my takeaway was still that two individuals who satisfy Swiss requirements ( monogamy/adherence/lack of STDs) can engage in condom-less vaginal-oral intercourse with virtually* no risk.

* - equal to condom use without therapy
==========
Aug08 - Seroconversion
Mar10 - Diagnosis; cd4 690 - VL 19,000
Apr10 - cd4 600
May10 - VL 4,500
Jun10 - started Atripla ; VL 113
Jul 10 - UD vl, CD4 590
Aug 10 - UD, CD4 810, 52%
Nov 10 - UD, CD4 980

 


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