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Author Topic: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!  (Read 37896 times)

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Offline past

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BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« on: February 27, 2010, 05:26:31 PM »
I'm very much in love with my boyfriend, he is on atripla and has been undetectable for over 6 months.
He has a major issue with using condoms and can't stay hard when using them.
He says now that he's undetectable there is very little risk of infecting me.
I am aware of the Swiss Statement and that his infectiousness is dramatically reduced but I still worry. He would like to stop condoms altogether. I can't imagine life without him.

Any advice?
Anyone in serodiscordant relationships? Would unprotected sex with my bf be an insane decision?

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2010, 06:07:47 PM »
Not in a serodiscordant relationship but had to chime in on this.

No.

Do you have a desire to play russian roullette with your HIV status?  I don't really care what the Swiss Study says.  You're just putting yourself at risk of potentially contracting the virus.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2010, 06:31:12 PM »
Eh, the "Swiss statement" is not considered reliable as far as I'm aware.

A person with an undetectable VL is less likely to transmit the virus however the possibility of infection remains.

Being infected with HIV is a big deal. I don't think any relationship is worth the price of infection.

But it's your call.

MtD

Offline john33

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2010, 06:33:44 PM »
Past,
although you're both going through a tough time i have to 2nd what hellraiser said.

Undetectable means less than 50 copies of the virus, that just means they can't count lower than that. It does not mean your boyfreind is no longer positive.

Don't do it, i would suggest talking it through with a doctor who would say the same, but they may be able to recommend help in your situation.

John

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2010, 06:57:00 PM »
past, is this the same boyfriend who you posted about a year ago where he hid his HIV meds from you for two years, all the whole having condomless sex with you?  If it is, maybe you should consider whether or not he values his orgasms more than he values your health.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2010, 07:14:45 PM »
miss philicia-
no this is not the same guy. That person from my past is, thankfully, out of my life.. Leaving him was one of the hardest things I've had to do. Somehow (maybe because he was taking medicine) I never became infected from him, despite the numerous acts of unprotected sex between us. I regrettfully admit that it took a good amount of time to finally leave him, because I was so in love, but I am today still negative and have not seen or spoken to him in a long time.

I never thought I would love again but here I am in love with this man who is positive.. It's funny because if I had never gone through what I went through with my x, I would never had educated myself on the issue and would never even have given this man a chance. Maybe things DO happen for a reason?


Offline madbrain

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2010, 07:24:50 PM »
Past,
although you're both going through a tough time i have to 2nd what hellraiser said.

Undetectable means less than 50 copies of the virus, that just means they can't count lower than that. It does not mean your boyfreind is no longer positive.

Don't do it, i would suggest talking it through with a doctor who would say the same, but they may be able to recommend help in your situation.

John

Also, the VL counts are taken in a blood sample at any given time, but it can vary. Some people have viral blips. Moreover, the viral count in the semen has been different in some studies.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2010, 07:29:32 PM »
Whew! Thank goodness for the someone posted alert --- I just erased 99% of my previous message.  

To follow your pre-destined concept of things happening for a reason, here's my take.

This is your chance to prove to yourself, without waiting months and months, that you come first and a man who can't figure out how to keep his dick hard in a raincoat comes second, if at all, and quite literally, should not cum in you without protection.

You clearly lucked out with the previous beau and this one, at least you know he's positive. YOU'VE been given a second chance to show how much you learned the first time with a selfish poz guy, now you've got a second poz guy who cites research---net effect? another selfish guy has entered your life.  This is perhaps as important as HIV in terms of your self-education.

You are young. I'm old enough to be your mom so I'm gonna tell ya. This is not love. This is someone objecting to a layer of latex. Very plain, very simple, very selfish.

Em
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 07:32:47 PM by emeraldize »

Offline john33

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2010, 07:31:57 PM »
I'd also ask myself how much he loved me.

If he's wiling to put you at risk, that speaks volumes!!

John

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2010, 07:33:26 PM »
Past,

I agree with the others. This man you love sounds like a narcissistic douchebag.

You need to appreciate that HIV is not just a handful of pills taken at night and a bloodtest every other month. It's a huge thing that will change your life in ways you cannot appreciate.

Being HIV positive will impact on you getting insurance and travelling overseas. It will impose legal restrictions on the way you conduct your sex life. Those are just the tip of the iceberg.

MtD

Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2010, 07:45:39 PM »
thanks everyone for the responses...
I think most of you are wrong to say he is totally selfish because he HAS bought boxes of condoms and has tried using them... he just can't stay hard, and has even said that sex is only part of our relationship, and that if I wanted to he would refrain from sex..(neither of us really wants that).. but if we did have full-on sex, he simply can't do it with a condom... thus our dillema

::sigh::


Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2010, 07:49:38 PM »
I have to ask why a known HIV+ guy who can't have sex/get erect with a condom would have sex with HIV- guys in the first place, and/or even seek them out in the first place.  Doesn't make a lot of sense.  Certainly he had to know of this little problem before he met you.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2010, 07:52:47 PM »
Your b/f needs to start thinking with the head on his shoulders and less with the head between his legs and that goes for you too.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2010, 07:56:14 PM »
thanks everyone for the responses...
I think most of you are wrong to say he is totally selfish because he HAS bought boxes of condoms and has tried using them... he just can't stay hard, and has even said that sex is only part of our relationship, and that if I wanted to he would refrain from sex..(neither of us really wants that).. but if we did have full-on sex, he simply can't do it with a condom... thus our dillema

::sigh::



Well I can't imagine exposing a person I love to HIV. Getting laid just isn't that important.

MtD

Offline john33

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2010, 07:58:00 PM »
His even suggesting this shows a huge lack of respect for you and your health

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2010, 08:02:34 PM »
HAS bought boxes of condoms and has tried using them... he just can't stay hard
sounds like someone needs to start working their way through at least one box of condoms masturbating until he can get everything working right in a protected environment. Millions of people use condoms all the time (why I used three just this afternoon. Woof! ;) 8) ), and if he can't do it too, then he just needs more practice
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline emeraldize

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2010, 08:13:03 PM »
Hey Past

Glimmer of hope here, and I'm willing to retract slightly from my previous position having just read this within your recent post "has even said that sex is only part of our relationship, and that if I wanted to he would refrain from sex..(neither of us really wants that).."

Good. Refrain. There's OOODLES of pleasurable things you can do to bring each other to climax. And, then, maybe he'll figure some things out along the way. I have to concede I thought this was a male/female partnership, but Miss P wrote yours is a male/male partnership. Not that I would alter much of what I said earlier, but you're definitely in better counsel from the menfolk here if that's so.

I am inclined to ask if your partner has ever tried Viagra or another one of the erection-direction drugs on the market.
 

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2010, 08:13:54 PM »
my advice contradicts the rest here. all sex is risky, especially all sex with an HIV+ person. medications reduce risk, condoms reduce risk...nothing short of abstinence eliminates it. the amount of risk reduction from condoms varies greatly, depending on how they're used. there's a typically cited "98% effective" statistic, which means that studies show condoms provide 100% barrier protection unless they FAIL, which is ostensibly measured at 1 failure for every 50 uses "when used as directed".

that means an average risk reduction of 50x. by all accounts i've seen, the relationship between viral load IN THE FLUID IN QUESTION and infectivity is linear...a VL of 100,000 is 100x as infectious as a VL of 1,000. therefore, effective medication can reduce the risk of infection by a greater degree mathematically than regular condom usage. the ideal is to use both. however, for many men including myself CONDOMS SUCK. they pretty much negate the experience itself, n produce less pleasure than mere masturbation. there is no newspeak or sis-boom-bah or earthshaking finger-wagging that can sell me or many other men on condoms. furthermore, "98% effective" is a false claim in my experience. if u play harder than "normal", the breakage rate is more like 1 in FIVE, not 1 in 50. all at the cost of sensation.

personally, as a poz man i could not emotionally handle being in a relationship with a neg guy, with or without condoms. sero-discordant relationships will always carry some risk...effective HIV medication reduces that risk more effectively than condom usage, and using both is more effective than relying on either one. no one can live ur life for u, or take ur risks for u.

on a larger point, the idea that condoms as they currently exist r a sufficient measure to stem HIV infection is deluded. they were only meant to be a stopgap, anyone that hopes to truly make condom usage more widespread should make serious efforts at facilitating the production of condoms that maintain FAR more sensation than the current technologies.

we are seeing the long-term limits of AIDS activism trying to sell condom-usage. time to make the tool fit the job, which is allowing the expression of sexuality with maximum reduction of disease risk ***AND*** minimal reduction of sexual sensation...and at minimal cost.

Offline Nestor

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2010, 08:48:12 PM »
I am thirty-six years old, and I have been sexually active since I was twenty-one.  I have never had a condom break.  Not once.  Nor has there been any dire or woeful lack of pleasure and sensation.  I suspect that most of the objections to condom usage are psychological.  

And the idea that it is "deluded" to suppose that condoms protect?  I had sex with condoms hundreds of times and never got HIV.  Then I had sex without a condom once and I got HIV.  You do the math.  
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 08:51:40 PM by Nestor »
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2010, 08:57:53 PM »
1)  I am thirty-six years old, and I have been sexually active since I was twenty-one.  I have never had a condom break.  Not once.  Nor has there been any dire or woeful lack of pleasure and sensation.  I suspect that most of the objections to condom usage are psychological.  

2) And the idea that it is "deluded" to suppose that condoms protect?  I had sex with condoms hundreds of times and never got HIV.  Then I had sex without a condom once and I got HIV.  You do the math.  


1) the sex u have is not the sex everyone else has...ur sensation is not other's sensation..ur suspicions r irrelevant to my experience.

2) doing 'math' via word-games, has and will continue to fail as a comprehensive means of effecting condom usage. condoms protect to varying degrees for varying people, at a sensory cost many r n will remain unwilling to pay. there's no argument to counter that.

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2010, 09:08:27 PM »
should make serious efforts at facilitating the production of condoms that maintain FAR more sensation than the current technologies.

....which is allowing the expression of sexuality with maximum reduction of disease risk ***AND*** minimal reduction of sexual sensation
Those I have never felt anything more than maybe a slight lack of sensation, I suggest that you need to try some different brands. ;) Visit an ASO to get some, as many ASOs carry a variety of condoms and free of charge. (My ASO in poodunk South Carolina provides "care bags' with about 6 kinds of condoms and lube.) Pre-lubed kinds are awesome ;) and the ultra-thin versions usually feel like nothing (which can be a bit un-nerving and caused me too check thre wrapper, so too speak, a few times)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2010, 09:28:44 PM »
Those I have never felt anything more than maybe a slight lack of sensation, I suggest that you need to try some different brands. ;) Visit an ASO to get some, as many ASOs carry a variety of condoms and free of charge. (My ASO in poodunk South Carolina provides "care bags' with about 6 kinds of condoms and lube.) Pre-lubed kinds are awesome ;) and the ultra-thin versions usually feel like nothing (which can be a bit un-nerving and caused me too check thre wrapper, so too speak, a few times)

been there, done that. not interested. they all suck.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2010, 09:33:00 PM »
been there, done that. not interested. they all suck.

Just a heads up.  You can disagree with the group think here about condoms, but facts are facts.  Condoms are much more definitively proven to prevent HIV infection than say suppressing your viral load and barebacking for the hell of it.  So while you disagree it's not really helpful to suggest to someone that to prevent an HIV infection they shouldn't use condoms...

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 09:41:45 PM »
Just a heads up.  You can disagree with the group think here about condoms, but facts are facts.  Condoms are much more definitively proven to prevent HIV infection than say suppressing your viral load and barebacking for the hell of it.  So while you disagree it's not really helpful to suggest to someone that to prevent an HIV infection they shouldn't use condoms...

cite ur evidence and/or refute my mathematical statements about infectivity earlier. what u think is helpful isn't my concern, the dilemma faced by the original poster is. it remains true that no harangue here has a snowball's chance in hell of maintaining the erection on the part of the OP's bf. it remains true that a sero-discordant sexual relationship will always present some degree of risk to the negative partner, unless one stretches the definition of "sex" to comical extent. it is up to the OP to judge what risks he is willing to take to be with his intrinsically risky partner.

if ur going to dismiss the Swiss statement, make a better go of it than u have...becuz u'll never be able to dismiss the negative sexual impact many or most experience from condoms.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2010, 09:50:14 PM »
cite ur evidence and/or refute my mathematical statements about infectivity earlier. what u think is helpful isn't my concern, the dilemma faced by the original poster is. it remains true that no harangue here has a snowball's chance in hell of maintaining the erection on the part of the OP's bf. it remains true that a sero-discordant sexual relationship will always present some degree of risk to the negative partner, unless one stretches the definition of "sex" to comical extent. it is up to the OP to judge what risks he is willing to take to be with his intrinsically risky partner.

if ur going to dismiss the Swiss statement, make a better go of it than u have...becuz u'll never be able to dismiss the negative sexual impact many or most experience from condoms.

News Flash: Penetrative Sex is risky!

So the OP says "Hey my boyfriend who is poz wants to bareback me.  I'm negative and he doesn't like condoms.  What should I do?"

Response, "If you don't want to become positive your best bet is condom use which lowers the risk significantly, otherwise I wouldn't engage in penetrative sex with guy"

I'm not even going to dignify your refutation of condoms being an effective means of preventing HIV transmission because it's probably one of the stupidest things I've ever read on these forums so far.  Condoms aren't 100% effective, but neither is anything else.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2010, 09:58:23 PM »
In addition to some other suggestions given on this post, perhaps, pos bf could see about Viagra or cialis -- in addition to trying various exercises to improve his problem regarding getting/maintaining erection with a condom on.

I think the important thing here is that the OP is seeking some guidance.  Ultimately, once in the bedroom we all make our own decisions --- hopefully, he will make the wise one.  I was in his shoes before and obvious we see the decision I made. 

I think there are a lot of people who think that because HIV has become more of a manageable condition that there is nothing wrong with taking that chance of contracting it.  As I'm sure many LTSs would agree, if we didn't have many of the meds we have now and the "manageability" maybe there would not be so many who think that it may be a negligible risk.   Just thinking out loud here...
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2010, 09:58:57 PM »
News Flash: Penetrative Sex is risky!

So the OP says "Hey my boyfriend who is poz wants to bareback me.  I'm negative and he doesn't like condoms.  What should I do?"

Response, "If you don't want to become positive your best bet is condom use which lowers the risk significantly, otherwise I wouldn't engage in penetrative sex with guy"

I'm not even going to dignify your refutation of condoms being an effective means of preventing HIV transmission because it's probably one of the stupidest things I've ever read on these forums so far.  Condoms aren't 100% effective, but neither is anything else.

 ;D ur parting flame is circular and incompetent. condoms r an effective means of reducing risk, not preventing it...that's the semantic difference between "98% effective" and "100%. effective"
effective ARV treatment is also an effective means of reducing risk, not preventing it. up to 99.999% effective, according to the Swiss Health Authorities, whom i trust far more than i trust u, but still not 100% effective.

combining them could potentially equal 99.99998% effective, but still not 100% effective. the cost of combining them equals erectile dysfunction on the part of his current partner, and a large percntage of future partners.

try again.

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2010, 10:01:29 PM »
been there, done that. not interested. they all suck.
you seem a little dismissive, pretty quickly, of a product that will save lives (by not allowing someone to be infected with a terminal disease). I'm sorry that you aren't able to get an adequate sexual sensation when you have tried various brands of condoms. Obviously nearly all males that use condoms (because it's awfully hard to use condoms when you can't keep it up ;)) either don't have that issue, or have taken it in stride offsetting the protection of their partner and/or themselves.

Hopefully, the OP will be able to get his BF to try various condoms and find the right fit (as this is about advice to the OP on how to get his BF to wear a rubber; not really about who else in the forums can't keep it up with a rubber on) Especially when it's such an easy aide to have his partner use to ensure that the virus won't be passed on.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2010, 10:08:14 PM »
you seem a little dismissive, pretty quickly, of a product that will save lives (by not allowing someone to be infected with a terminal disease). I'm sorry that you aren't able to get an adequate sexual sensation when you have tried various brands of condoms. Obviously nearly all males that use condoms (because it's awfully hard to use condoms when you can't keep it up ;)) either don't have that issue, or have taken it in stride offsetting the protection of their partner and/or themselves.

Hopefully, the OP will be able to get his BF to try various condoms and find the right fit (as this is about advice to the OP on how to get his BF to wear a rubber; not really about who else in the forums can't keep it up with a rubber on) Especially when it's such an easy aide to have his partner use to ensure that the virus won't be passed on.

i am indeed dismissive of the wasted time and effort of attempting to warp my sexual proclivity to the requirements of circa 1987 hiv-prevention thought. what u describe this thread being about it actually ur own agenda, n that of most of the other posters here. the agenda of the original poster was actually to ask for advice and reactions.

i say trying to get his bf to use condoms and enjoy sex with them is probably a lost cause, i say aruging that likelihood over the internet is comical and tone-deaf. either he should leave his bf, or limit their sexual activities to ones they both enjoy at risk levels acceptable to both. presuming to focus only on overcoming the bf's ED on rubber is just silly.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2010, 10:10:41 PM »
funny thought went thru my head - like the commercial for e-trade with the baby in the plane that says "dad... dad" when he hears the pilot.....    I almost wanted to say rjane?..... rjane....
some will know what I mean.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2010, 10:11:25 PM »
what u describe this thread being about it actually ur own agenda, n that of most of the other posters here. the agenda of the original poster was actually to ask for advice and reactions.

Give it a rest, Mary.  We gave our reactions.  What was that about an agenda?  Would you mean yours?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2010, 10:12:08 PM »
I almost wanted to say rjane?..... rjane....
some will know what I mean.

note change of avatar
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2010, 10:14:04 PM »
Ms. P -
I love it   ;D
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2010, 10:14:33 PM »
Give it a rest, Mary.  We gave our reactions.  What was that about an agenda?  Would you mean yours?

 ::) mine, urs, po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe. my name isn't 'mary' n i'll respond freely as i choose. :)

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2010, 10:30:07 PM »
either he should leave his bf, or limit their sexual activities to ones they both enjoy at risk levels acceptable to both.
I couldn't agree more!
presuming to focus only on overcoming the bf's ED on rubber is just silly.
and just as logical an option as your options is another choice - overcoming the psychological/physical problem behind having a weak woody in a wrapper.

The OP clearly came asking for options, not a limitation on options. Unless YOU are the boyfriend, you surely cannot testify whether he has tried this option yet, or whether he couldn't find appropriate fitting condoms that gave him the sensations that he desired.

Many men can be helped with their erectile dysfunctions (with psycho or physio causes); so don't rule out that option

(and IMHO, losing a hardon just because you wrapped a piece of latex around an erection definitely sounds like an ED issue to me  ;D)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2010, 10:43:49 PM »
I couldn't agree more!and just as logical an option as your options is another choice - overcoming the psychological/physical problem behind having a weak woody in a wrapper.

The OP clearly came asking for options, not a limitation on options. Unless YOU are the boyfriend, you surely cannot testify whether he has tried this option yet, or whether he couldn't find appropriate fitting condoms that gave him the sensations that he desired.

Many men can be helped with their erectile dysfunctions (with psycho or physio causes); so don't rule out that option

(and IMHO, losing a hardon just because you wrapped a piece of latex around an erection definitely sounds like an ED issue to me  ;D)

oh, i have no problem with his bf trying every condom he can get his hands on, n i state no limit on his options (except one, which i'll get to) but i don't see why u choose to make unsupported statements. ur "humble opinion" has failed to produce the universal acceptance of condoms that many prevention activists still cling to as a viable goal. ur 'humble opinion' is basically to presume a false consensus that using condoms is natural and/or "no big deal", and that anyone who can't hack it has something wrong with them.

whether or not the OP continues his relationship with his bf, i simply don't see "tell ur bf that if he really loves u he'll find a way to enjoy condoms, or hit the road cuz he aint no real man anyway" is silly, and the presumptuousness of it is showing its age.

now, u can go back n forth between addressing just the OP's bf issue, or making claims about men n condoms in general, but don't be a hypocrite in telling me to just stick to the issue of the OP's bf. :)

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2010, 10:54:00 PM »
Unless YOU are the boyfriend

A distinct possibility.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2010, 11:00:18 PM »
i simply don't see "tell ur bf that if he really loves u he'll find a way to enjoy condoms, or hit the road cuz he aint no real man anyway" is silly,
No one said that the bf should take a hike because he wasn't a "real man".
there you go projecting yourself into this situation again. :D LOL Just kiddin'

Seems to me most people are worried about the partner's lack of concern about the transmission possibility, not the perfomance issue per se - because the perfomance issue can be perhaps be worked out.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline next2u

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2010, 11:34:02 PM »
just to chime in...

have you tried using female condoms? that way he isnt wearing one and the sensation might be better.

best,
d
midapr07 - seroconversion
sept07 - tested poz
oct07 cd4 1013; vl 13,900; cd4% 41
feb08 cd4  694;  vl 16,160; cd4% 50.1
may08 cd4 546; vl 91,480; cd4% 32
aug08 cd4 576; vl 48,190; cd4% 40.7
dec08 cd4 559; vl 63,020; cd4% 29.4
feb09 cd4 464; vl 11,000; cd4% 26
may09 cd4 544; vl 29,710; cd4% 27.2
oct09 cd4 ...; vl 23,350; cd4% 31.6
mar10 cd4 408; vl 59,050; cd4% 31.4
aug10 cd4 328; vl 80,000; cd4% 19.3 STARTED ATRIPLA
oct10 cd4 423; vl 410 ;); cd4% 30.2
jun11 cd4 439; vl <20 ;); cd4% 33.8 <-Undetectable!
mar12 cd4 695; vl ud; cd4% 38.6
jan13 cd4 738; vl ud; cd4% 36.8
aug13 cd4 930; vl ud; cd4% 44.3
jan14 cd4 813; vl ud; cd4% 42.8
may14 cd4 783; vl *; cd4%43.5

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2010, 11:47:35 PM »
just to chime in...

have you tried using female condoms? that way he isnt wearing one and the sensation might be better.

best,
d

some users do report that female condoms feel better for the insertive partner. others like the "pleasure-enz" condoms, with extra material near the head that bags up. Trojan makes an interesting variant that's tight around the base but balloons up for about 60% of the shaft, so that the material bunches up n more closely approximates the behavior/sensation of vaginal and anal tissue. for me these don't cut it either, but they're better than the standard.

the very fact that such is the case is an indictment of condom design in general. they need to be stronger, thinner and far more pleasurable if they're going to be the primary tool of HIV-transmission prevention.

stoically insisting that condoms r no big deal is itself a matter of one's own projection, "Leatherman"...there's a reason most people hate condoms, and it's because they deaden sensation in the least desirable way possible...sexually. pretending otherwise is a proven failure, rare indeed is the person who uses condoms becuz they're as pleasurable or more pleasurable than going raw. for most men, the reverse will always be true...at least with condoms in ALL of their present forms.

if u really hope to change that, changing condoms will prove far easier than changing male neurology and overall biology. especially thru internet argument!

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2010, 12:09:48 AM »
You seem to run into more relationships with poz guys than needed. Hopefully this is teaching you something so that you never have to post an entry in the "I Just Tested Poz" forum.

This guys says that he loves you (?), yet he wants to dump a load of potentially HIV-laden cum in your system.

I may be wrong, but [as far as I recall] discussions around the Swiss study have highlighted the fact that the concentration of virus in seminal fluid may be higher than what is found in peripheral blood.

My advice and opinion (not an agenda as hinted by the guy with poor spelling skills) is that you dump this person.  His mentality around protection is not going to change.

kthxbi!
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2010, 12:18:06 AM »
You seem to run into more relationships with poz guys than needed. Hopefully this is teaching you something so that you never have to post an entry in the "I Just Tested Poz" forum.

This guys says that he loves you (?), yet he wants to dump a load of potentially HIV-laden cum in your system.

I may be wrong, but [as far as I recall] discussions around the Swiss study have highlighted the fact that the concentration of virus in seminal fluid may be higher than what is found in peripheral blood.

My advice and opinion (not an agenda as hinted by the guy with poor spelling skills) is that you dump this person.  His mentality around protection is not going to change.

kthxbi!

 ::) it is rather unlikely that someone with a "consistently undetectable viral load" is "hiv-laden", n the relationship between blood viral load and seminal viral load is more complex than u describe.

http://www.thebody.com/content/treat/art49400.html

Undetectable Viral Loads and Transmission

The Swiss expert statement had been originally downplayed in the media for fear of encouraging more unsafe sex. One applauds the Swiss for encouraging individuals to get tested and begin effective treatment, thereby slowing the transmission of the virus within the community. The Swiss statement and referenced studies, however, were also criticized due to being heterosexually based and debated as to its application to the MSM population or gay community. But it also generated irrational fear that HIV transmission would get out of control.

Hence the Australasian rejection and conclusion of only the strict use of condoms plus early treatment of STIs being the only means to reduce transmission of HIV. However this continues to beg for further debate. It is fruitless to ignore that effective antiretroviral therapy eliminates HIV from genital secretions, and that HIV RNA, measured in sperm, declines below the limits of detection on antiretroviral therapy. HIV RNA also falls below the detection limits in female genital secretions during effective antiretroviral therapy. Moreover, usually sperm cell viral particles rise only after an increase in viral load from the blood. The cell-associated viral gene particles, present in genital secretions during effective antiretroviral therapy, are actually non-infectious virions; HIV-containing cells in sperm lack markers of viral proliferations such as circular LTR-DNA.

Thus it's logical to abstract that less virus (undetectable) translates to less ability to transmit HIV to others. There can never be a prospectively conducted ethical study since one can't ask HIV-negative individuals to participate in having unprotected sex with undetectable positives.

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2010, 12:27:17 AM »
::) it is rather unlikely that someone with a "consistently undetectable viral load" is "hiv-laden", n the relationship between blood viral load and seminal viral load is more complex than u describe.

Queen, please.  Rolling your eyes doesn't make you an authority in the field. Did you notice the word "potentially" or does the rjane syndrome come with a visual deficiency as well?

Read all that you want into that study.  Until we get concrete, valid proof that we can't infect others once we reach UD levels the OP needs to think of all possibilities.

I will not engage in further discussion with you.  I don't feed sock puppets as they lack a digestive system.

::on ignore::

kthxbi
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2010, 12:30:11 AM »
Queen, please.  Rolling your eyes doesn't make you an authority in the field. Did you notice the word "potentially" or does the rjane syndrome come with a visual deficiency as well?

Read all that you want into that study.  Until we get concrete, valid proof that we can't infect others once we reach UD levels the OP needs to think of all possibilities.

I will not engage in further discussion with you.  I don't feed sock puppets as they lack a digestive system.

::on ignore::

kthxbi

ur reading comprehension is poor, the only PREVENTION is abstinence, the rest is all harm/risk REDUCTION, n the costs n benefits of various mechanisms of harm REDUCTION.

feels like i've walked into a deluded cult!

Offline U1195

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2010, 03:08:14 AM »
I'm very much in love with my boyfriend, he is on atripla and has been undetectable for over 6 months.
He has a major issue with using condoms and can't stay hard when using them.
He says now that he's undetectable there is very little risk of infecting me.
I am aware of the Swiss Statement and that his infectiousness is dramatically reduced but I still worry. He would like to stop condoms altogether. I can't imagine life without him.

Any advice?
Anyone in serodiscordant relationships? Would unprotected sex with my bf be an insane decision?
Well u donot have any children in ur relationship und u are not married,so what is the problem
not separating so that ur bf finds someone else who is pos and he can have unprotected sex with?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 03:17:51 AM by U1195 »

Offline carousel

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2010, 06:19:56 AM »
I was just wondering if the fact that you were in a relationship and managed to not get infected is playing any part in this.  In that, you might be thinking that you could manage the same in the other relationship.

I was with somebody for just over a year where we never used condoms.  Managed to stay uninfected, but it was only a matter of time that I got infected by another partner.

I hate condoms, even with all the information out there and I kind of see your boyfriend's position.  I just think, as others obviously do, that if you have a choice not to get infected, take it no matter heartache it may cause.  In the long term, I think you will be glad.

As you don't seemingly have a problem with wearing condoms, why not find a boyf who feels the same.


Offline Ann

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2010, 10:30:12 AM »
phildinftlaudy, Miss Philicia, and livebythemoon,

I understand that you probably think you're being protective of the forums when you accuse a new member of being a sockpuppet, but please STOP. Just because someone disagrees with what you say doesn't mean they're a sock.

In future, if you have suspicions about a member, either use the report button or PM me. DO NOT take it upon yourselves to publicly chastise. All this does is make new people afraid to post for being attacked. So while you may think you're protecting the forums, you're actually doing the opposite.

I was going to give you three this warning via PM, (and yes, it is a warning) but I decided to do it in public so that everyone will know the score where this is concerned. Attacking people with accusations of sockpuppetry isn't on.

Oh, and while I'm at it, the same thing applies if you suspect that someone is a denialist. DO NOT attack them in a thread, report or PM.

Once again, just to make it crystal clear, if you have any kind of suspicions about a forum member, use the report button or PM me. DO NOT go on the attack in a thread.

As always, thank you for your cooperation.

And for the record, while Jeton has a somewhat abrasive debating/writing style, there is no indication that he is anyone's sock. So knock it off!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2010, 05:18:51 PM »
wow...thank you for that.

Offline Nestor

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2010, 05:29:41 PM »
Quote
becuz u'll never be able to dismiss the negative sexual impact many or most experience from condoms.

Quote
for most men, the reverse will always be true...

Upon what evidence are you basing these assertions about most men?  Surely not your own experience, considering the way in which you dismissed my experience as grounds for my position--

Quote
the sex u have is not the sex everyone else has...ur sensation is not other's sensation..ur suspicions r irrelevant to my experience.

The sex I have is also the sex my sex partners have.  Then there are my friends, numbers of men who have had healthy, active sex lives, with numbers of partners, always with condoms.  None of them has HIV, and they are perfectly happy with their sex lives.  I offered the combined experience of myself and others as part of the total human picture here.  I never claimed to speak for all people or to represent the totality of the human sexual experience.  And I appreciate your honesty about your own feelings and experience.  But as your posts here have tended to imply that your own attitudes towards condoms are representative of the norm--many if not most men, then just plain most men--it is a little ironic of you to turn around and dismiss my experience.

I would like to address a bit more the question of the effectiveness of condoms:  

Quote
there's a typically cited "98% effective" statistic, which means that studies show condoms provide 100% barrier protection unless they FAIL, which is ostensibly measured at 1 failure for every 50 uses "when used as directed".

First of all, I offered my experience--fifteen years of sex without one incident of condom breakage--as one modest contribution to informal information gathering.  If others here would contribute with information about their experience, we might begin to develop a picture of how often breakage happens in the real world.  

Googling the question I find the following:

Quote
Respondents were
544 men aged 18 to 54 years. Of these, 402 men reported using
13,691 condoms for vaginal or anal intercourse; 7.3% reportedly
broke during application or use and 4.4% slipped off. Men having
sex with men reported slightly higher slippage rates than those
having sex with women. Breakage and slippage were unevenly
distributed among the sample: a few men experienced very high
failure rates.
A volunteer subsample reported 3 months later on
condoms supplied to them: 36 men used 529 condoms, of which 2.8
broke during application or use and 3.4% slipped off. Many of these
failures pose no risk to the user, especially those occurring
during application, as long as they are noticed at the time
, but
failure may discourage future use. Research is needed to identify
user behaviours related to breakage.

The sentence I highlighted is, I think, crucial: these percentages are somehow skewed.  After all, if I've never had a condom break, whereas you are capable of saying the following:

Quote
"98% effective" is a false claim in my experience. if u play harder than "normal", the breakage rate is more like 1 in FIVE, not 1 in 50. all at the cost of sensation.

Then there must be a fairly wide difference between the experience of different people.  And, before you ask, while I've never been involved in sex that resulted in a broken wall or anything like that, I've been involved in some pretty energetic episodes, so I do not think it is a question of the vigor of movement.  What could it be?  

Quote
Risk of condom failure in a
single episode was fairly high, particularly in anal intercourse,
for men who had engaged in each act only a few times in the
previous year. It declined rapidly with experience (e.g., to below
1% for receptive anal intercourse after about 10 episodes in the
previous year)...Gay men should be especially cautious the first few
times they use a condom; after moderate experience, however, they
may expect a low risk of condom failure.

So, experienced lovers have few episodes of condom breakage--below 1%!--whereas inexperienced ones have many such episodes?

A third study reports the following:

Quote
In nearly 2,000 intercourses 14 different types of condoms
were tested by 80 heterosexual and seven homosexual volunteer
couples. The test couples were generally quite experienced in the
use of condoms. It appears that the condoms rarely (1.3%) ruptured
or slipped off during the actual intercourse.

And:

Quote
In order to
gain insight into condom breakage, a questionnaire was administered
to women attending a municipal hospital family planning clinic.
Thirty-six percent of the 106 subjects had experienced at least one
condom breakage.
Condom breakage occurred in approximately 1 out
of 100 acts of intercourse using condoms, with a lifetime breakage
rate of 10 per 1000 condom uses and a past year breakage rate of
8 per 1000 condom uses.

That means that 64% of those women had never experienced condom breakage, which further means that even the low rates this study goes on to cite--one percent, and less than one percent in the previous year--are not evenly distributed, but were concentrated in 36% of the people surveyed.  After all, we have your own evidence that there are people for whom 1in 5 condoms breaking would be a reasonable estimate!  Therefore, it is plausible to assume the following: the majority of people have very few episodes of breakage, and even of th small number of breakages reported, the vast majority are happening with a handful of people, and can be attributed to the habits of the user and not to the quality of the condom.  

I think, being adults, we can agree that we would all prefer not to use condoms, for obvious reasons.  I know I certainly would.  But "condomless sex would be better" does not lead logically to "it is so much better that I am willing to risk HIV for it."  I would prefer to eat regularly at a few wildly expensive restaurants.  I am sure the fare they offer is better than what I am accustomed to eating.  I do not bankrupt myself in order to do so, because the experience would not be worth bankruptcy; in fact the fare I usually eat is quite good.  Same with condoms.  I've had no shortage of really great sex, with condoms.  Whatever small improvement condomless sex might offer is not worth breaking up relationships over and it certainly isn't worth getting HIV or, worse, giving HIV to someone else.  

The choices before Past are 1. to break up with the current boyfriend, 2. to take a chance on condomless sex, 3. to have only non-penetrative sex, and 4. To insist on sex with condoms.  Without knowing a lot more about the relationship I would never presume to give advice.  But for Past and everyone else, I would like to make a simple plea for sanity.  I think there are a lot of people out there who got HIV from unsafe sex who would never have been tempted to have unsafe sex if they had not heard others going on and on about how horrible condoms are and how much better "raw" or "bareback" sex is.  And after a while, that kind of hype gets to people.  If my friends went on and on day after day about how great the ice-cream at a certain place is, I'd start feeling that I was missing something if I never tried it.  The fact is, the one episode of condomless sex that I had, that gave me HIV, was no better than any sex with condoms, and a lot of sex with condoms has been a lot better than it.  
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2010, 05:52:36 PM »
Upon what evidence are you basing these assertions about most men?  Surely not your own experience, considering the way in which you dismissed my experience as grounds for my position--

The sex I have is also the sex my sex partners have.  Then there are my friends, numbers of men who have had healthy, active sex lives, with numbers of partners, always with condoms.  None of them has HIV, and they are perfectly happy with their sex lives.  I offered the combined experience of myself and others as part of the total human picture here.  I never claimed to speak for all people or to represent the totality of the human sexual experience.  And I appreciate your honesty about your own feelings and experience.  But as your posts here have tended to imply that your own attitudes towards condoms are representative of the norm--many if not most men, then just plain most men--it is a little ironic of you to turn around and dismiss my experience.

I would like to address a bit more the question of the effectiveness of condoms:  

First of all, I offered my experience--fifteen years of sex without one incident of condom breakage--as one modest contribution to informal information gathering.  If others here would contribute with information about their experience, we might begin to develop a picture of how often breakage happens in the real world.  

Googling the question I find the following:

The sentence I highlighted is, I think, crucial: these percentages are somehow skewed.  After all, if I've never had a condom break, whereas you are capable of saying the following:

Then there must be a fairly wide difference between the experience of different people.  And, before you ask, while I've never been involved in sex that resulted in a broken wall or anything like that, I've been involved in some pretty energetic episodes, so I do not think it is a question of the vigor of movement.  What could it be?  

So, experienced lovers have few episodes of condom breakage--below 1%!--whereas inexperienced ones have many such episodes?

A third study reports the following:

And:

That means that 64% of those women had never experienced condom breakage, which further means that even the low rates this study goes on to cite--one percent, and less than one percent in the previous year--are not evenly distributed, but were concentrated in 36% of the people surveyed.  After all, we have your own evidence that there are people for whom 1in 5 condoms breaking would be a reasonable estimate!  Therefore, it is plausible to assume the following: the majority of people have very few episodes of breakage, and even of th small number of breakages reported, the vast majority are happening with a handful of people, and can be attributed to the habits of the user and not to the quality of the condom.  

I think, being adults, we can agree that we would all prefer not to use condoms, for obvious reasons.  I know I certainly would.  But "condomless sex would be better" does not lead logically to "it is so much better that I am willing to risk HIV for it."  I would prefer to eat regularly at a few wildly expensive restaurants.  I am sure the fare they offer is better than what I am accustomed to eating.  I do not bankrupt myself in order to do so, because the experience would not be worth bankruptcy; in fact the fare I usually eat is quite good.  Same with condoms.  I've had no shortage of really great sex, with condoms.  Whatever small improvement condomless sex might offer is not worth breaking up relationships over and it certainly isn't worth getting HIV or, worse, giving HIV to someone else.  

The choices before Past are 1. to break up with the current boyfriend, 2. to take a chance on condomless sex, 3. to have only non-penetrative sex, and 4. To insist on sex with condoms.  Without knowing a lot more about the relationship I would never presume to give advice.  But for Past and everyone else, I would like to make a simple plea for sanity.  I think there are a lot of people out there who got HIV from unsafe sex who would never have been tempted to have unsafe sex if they had not heard others going on and on about how horrible condoms are and how much better "raw" or "bareback" sex is.  And after a while, that kind of hype gets to people.  If my friends went on and on day after day about how great the ice-cream at a certain place is, I'd start feeling that I was missing something if I never tried it.  The fact is, the one episode of condomless sex that I had, that gave me HIV, was no better than any sex with condoms, and a lot of sex with condoms has been a lot better than it.  

 :o well now, that ended on a more histrionic note than i expected! i'd be curious about the sample collection procedures n subject details in the study u cite, partly to deconstruct them against ur implications...bcuz u omit the simple fact that studies that call for mandatory condom usage will invariably draw a skewed sample of people willing to use condoms in the first place.

some of us play harder than others, some of us r built differently. ur post is rife with all the internal conflicts of condom orthodoxy...which is no big deal. i just need to point out that orthodoxy has lost grip on many men in my experience, bcuz i happen to be a both contented and choosy slut. mere argument and "activism" is not going to influence us. if condoms r to be a longterm, multidecade burden on male sexuality, condoms need a rethink, period. i find it comical that u'd conclude by calling for my silence on the premise that my posts may cause people too much temptation and distress.

u might have considered taking seriously the idea that we need to pressure manufacturers to make better and cheaper condoms. 8)

 


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