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Author Topic: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!  (Read 39332 times)

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Offline past

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BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« on: February 27, 2010, 05:26:31 PM »
I'm very much in love with my boyfriend, he is on atripla and has been undetectable for over 6 months.
He has a major issue with using condoms and can't stay hard when using them.
He says now that he's undetectable there is very little risk of infecting me.
I am aware of the Swiss Statement and that his infectiousness is dramatically reduced but I still worry. He would like to stop condoms altogether. I can't imagine life without him.

Any advice?
Anyone in serodiscordant relationships? Would unprotected sex with my bf be an insane decision?

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2010, 06:07:47 PM »
Not in a serodiscordant relationship but had to chime in on this.

No.

Do you have a desire to play russian roullette with your HIV status?  I don't really care what the Swiss Study says.  You're just putting yourself at risk of potentially contracting the virus.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2010, 06:31:12 PM »
Eh, the "Swiss statement" is not considered reliable as far as I'm aware.

A person with an undetectable VL is less likely to transmit the virus however the possibility of infection remains.

Being infected with HIV is a big deal. I don't think any relationship is worth the price of infection.

But it's your call.

MtD

Offline john33

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2010, 06:33:44 PM »
Past,
although you're both going through a tough time i have to 2nd what hellraiser said.

Undetectable means less than 50 copies of the virus, that just means they can't count lower than that. It does not mean your boyfreind is no longer positive.

Don't do it, i would suggest talking it through with a doctor who would say the same, but they may be able to recommend help in your situation.

John

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2010, 06:57:00 PM »
past, is this the same boyfriend who you posted about a year ago where he hid his HIV meds from you for two years, all the whole having condomless sex with you?  If it is, maybe you should consider whether or not he values his orgasms more than he values your health.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2010, 07:14:45 PM »
miss philicia-
no this is not the same guy. That person from my past is, thankfully, out of my life.. Leaving him was one of the hardest things I've had to do. Somehow (maybe because he was taking medicine) I never became infected from him, despite the numerous acts of unprotected sex between us. I regrettfully admit that it took a good amount of time to finally leave him, because I was so in love, but I am today still negative and have not seen or spoken to him in a long time.

I never thought I would love again but here I am in love with this man who is positive.. It's funny because if I had never gone through what I went through with my x, I would never had educated myself on the issue and would never even have given this man a chance. Maybe things DO happen for a reason?


Offline madbrain

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2010, 07:24:50 PM »
Past,
although you're both going through a tough time i have to 2nd what hellraiser said.

Undetectable means less than 50 copies of the virus, that just means they can't count lower than that. It does not mean your boyfreind is no longer positive.

Don't do it, i would suggest talking it through with a doctor who would say the same, but they may be able to recommend help in your situation.

John

Also, the VL counts are taken in a blood sample at any given time, but it can vary. Some people have viral blips. Moreover, the viral count in the semen has been different in some studies.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2010, 07:29:32 PM »
Whew! Thank goodness for the someone posted alert --- I just erased 99% of my previous message.  

To follow your pre-destined concept of things happening for a reason, here's my take.

This is your chance to prove to yourself, without waiting months and months, that you come first and a man who can't figure out how to keep his dick hard in a raincoat comes second, if at all, and quite literally, should not cum in you without protection.

You clearly lucked out with the previous beau and this one, at least you know he's positive. YOU'VE been given a second chance to show how much you learned the first time with a selfish poz guy, now you've got a second poz guy who cites research---net effect? another selfish guy has entered your life.  This is perhaps as important as HIV in terms of your self-education.

You are young. I'm old enough to be your mom so I'm gonna tell ya. This is not love. This is someone objecting to a layer of latex. Very plain, very simple, very selfish.

Em
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 07:32:47 PM by emeraldize »

Offline john33

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2010, 07:31:57 PM »
I'd also ask myself how much he loved me.

If he's wiling to put you at risk, that speaks volumes!!

John

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2010, 07:33:26 PM »
Past,

I agree with the others. This man you love sounds like a narcissistic douchebag.

You need to appreciate that HIV is not just a handful of pills taken at night and a bloodtest every other month. It's a huge thing that will change your life in ways you cannot appreciate.

Being HIV positive will impact on you getting insurance and travelling overseas. It will impose legal restrictions on the way you conduct your sex life. Those are just the tip of the iceberg.

MtD

Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2010, 07:45:39 PM »
thanks everyone for the responses...
I think most of you are wrong to say he is totally selfish because he HAS bought boxes of condoms and has tried using them... he just can't stay hard, and has even said that sex is only part of our relationship, and that if I wanted to he would refrain from sex..(neither of us really wants that).. but if we did have full-on sex, he simply can't do it with a condom... thus our dillema

::sigh::


Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2010, 07:49:38 PM »
I have to ask why a known HIV+ guy who can't have sex/get erect with a condom would have sex with HIV- guys in the first place, and/or even seek them out in the first place.  Doesn't make a lot of sense.  Certainly he had to know of this little problem before he met you.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2010, 07:52:47 PM »
Your b/f needs to start thinking with the head on his shoulders and less with the head between his legs and that goes for you too.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2010, 07:56:14 PM »
thanks everyone for the responses...
I think most of you are wrong to say he is totally selfish because he HAS bought boxes of condoms and has tried using them... he just can't stay hard, and has even said that sex is only part of our relationship, and that if I wanted to he would refrain from sex..(neither of us really wants that).. but if we did have full-on sex, he simply can't do it with a condom... thus our dillema

::sigh::



Well I can't imagine exposing a person I love to HIV. Getting laid just isn't that important.

MtD

Offline john33

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2010, 07:58:00 PM »
His even suggesting this shows a huge lack of respect for you and your health

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2010, 08:02:34 PM »
HAS bought boxes of condoms and has tried using them... he just can't stay hard
sounds like someone needs to start working their way through at least one box of condoms masturbating until he can get everything working right in a protected environment. Millions of people use condoms all the time (why I used three just this afternoon. Woof! ;) 8) ), and if he can't do it too, then he just needs more practice
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline emeraldize

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2010, 08:13:03 PM »
Hey Past

Glimmer of hope here, and I'm willing to retract slightly from my previous position having just read this within your recent post "has even said that sex is only part of our relationship, and that if I wanted to he would refrain from sex..(neither of us really wants that).."

Good. Refrain. There's OOODLES of pleasurable things you can do to bring each other to climax. And, then, maybe he'll figure some things out along the way. I have to concede I thought this was a male/female partnership, but Miss P wrote yours is a male/male partnership. Not that I would alter much of what I said earlier, but you're definitely in better counsel from the menfolk here if that's so.

I am inclined to ask if your partner has ever tried Viagra or another one of the erection-direction drugs on the market.
 

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2010, 08:13:54 PM »
my advice contradicts the rest here. all sex is risky, especially all sex with an HIV+ person. medications reduce risk, condoms reduce risk...nothing short of abstinence eliminates it. the amount of risk reduction from condoms varies greatly, depending on how they're used. there's a typically cited "98% effective" statistic, which means that studies show condoms provide 100% barrier protection unless they FAIL, which is ostensibly measured at 1 failure for every 50 uses "when used as directed".

that means an average risk reduction of 50x. by all accounts i've seen, the relationship between viral load IN THE FLUID IN QUESTION and infectivity is linear...a VL of 100,000 is 100x as infectious as a VL of 1,000. therefore, effective medication can reduce the risk of infection by a greater degree mathematically than regular condom usage. the ideal is to use both. however, for many men including myself CONDOMS SUCK. they pretty much negate the experience itself, n produce less pleasure than mere masturbation. there is no newspeak or sis-boom-bah or earthshaking finger-wagging that can sell me or many other men on condoms. furthermore, "98% effective" is a false claim in my experience. if u play harder than "normal", the breakage rate is more like 1 in FIVE, not 1 in 50. all at the cost of sensation.

personally, as a poz man i could not emotionally handle being in a relationship with a neg guy, with or without condoms. sero-discordant relationships will always carry some risk...effective HIV medication reduces that risk more effectively than condom usage, and using both is more effective than relying on either one. no one can live ur life for u, or take ur risks for u.

on a larger point, the idea that condoms as they currently exist r a sufficient measure to stem HIV infection is deluded. they were only meant to be a stopgap, anyone that hopes to truly make condom usage more widespread should make serious efforts at facilitating the production of condoms that maintain FAR more sensation than the current technologies.

we are seeing the long-term limits of AIDS activism trying to sell condom-usage. time to make the tool fit the job, which is allowing the expression of sexuality with maximum reduction of disease risk ***AND*** minimal reduction of sexual sensation...and at minimal cost.

Offline Nestor

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2010, 08:48:12 PM »
I am thirty-six years old, and I have been sexually active since I was twenty-one.  I have never had a condom break.  Not once.  Nor has there been any dire or woeful lack of pleasure and sensation.  I suspect that most of the objections to condom usage are psychological.  

And the idea that it is "deluded" to suppose that condoms protect?  I had sex with condoms hundreds of times and never got HIV.  Then I had sex without a condom once and I got HIV.  You do the math.  
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 08:51:40 PM by Nestor »
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2010, 08:57:53 PM »
1)  I am thirty-six years old, and I have been sexually active since I was twenty-one.  I have never had a condom break.  Not once.  Nor has there been any dire or woeful lack of pleasure and sensation.  I suspect that most of the objections to condom usage are psychological.  

2) And the idea that it is "deluded" to suppose that condoms protect?  I had sex with condoms hundreds of times and never got HIV.  Then I had sex without a condom once and I got HIV.  You do the math.  


1) the sex u have is not the sex everyone else has...ur sensation is not other's sensation..ur suspicions r irrelevant to my experience.

2) doing 'math' via word-games, has and will continue to fail as a comprehensive means of effecting condom usage. condoms protect to varying degrees for varying people, at a sensory cost many r n will remain unwilling to pay. there's no argument to counter that.

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2010, 09:08:27 PM »
should make serious efforts at facilitating the production of condoms that maintain FAR more sensation than the current technologies.

....which is allowing the expression of sexuality with maximum reduction of disease risk ***AND*** minimal reduction of sexual sensation
Those I have never felt anything more than maybe a slight lack of sensation, I suggest that you need to try some different brands. ;) Visit an ASO to get some, as many ASOs carry a variety of condoms and free of charge. (My ASO in poodunk South Carolina provides "care bags' with about 6 kinds of condoms and lube.) Pre-lubed kinds are awesome ;) and the ultra-thin versions usually feel like nothing (which can be a bit un-nerving and caused me too check thre wrapper, so too speak, a few times)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2010, 09:28:44 PM »
Those I have never felt anything more than maybe a slight lack of sensation, I suggest that you need to try some different brands. ;) Visit an ASO to get some, as many ASOs carry a variety of condoms and free of charge. (My ASO in poodunk South Carolina provides "care bags' with about 6 kinds of condoms and lube.) Pre-lubed kinds are awesome ;) and the ultra-thin versions usually feel like nothing (which can be a bit un-nerving and caused me too check thre wrapper, so too speak, a few times)

been there, done that. not interested. they all suck.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2010, 09:33:00 PM »
been there, done that. not interested. they all suck.

Just a heads up.  You can disagree with the group think here about condoms, but facts are facts.  Condoms are much more definitively proven to prevent HIV infection than say suppressing your viral load and barebacking for the hell of it.  So while you disagree it's not really helpful to suggest to someone that to prevent an HIV infection they shouldn't use condoms...

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 09:41:45 PM »
Just a heads up.  You can disagree with the group think here about condoms, but facts are facts.  Condoms are much more definitively proven to prevent HIV infection than say suppressing your viral load and barebacking for the hell of it.  So while you disagree it's not really helpful to suggest to someone that to prevent an HIV infection they shouldn't use condoms...

cite ur evidence and/or refute my mathematical statements about infectivity earlier. what u think is helpful isn't my concern, the dilemma faced by the original poster is. it remains true that no harangue here has a snowball's chance in hell of maintaining the erection on the part of the OP's bf. it remains true that a sero-discordant sexual relationship will always present some degree of risk to the negative partner, unless one stretches the definition of "sex" to comical extent. it is up to the OP to judge what risks he is willing to take to be with his intrinsically risky partner.

if ur going to dismiss the Swiss statement, make a better go of it than u have...becuz u'll never be able to dismiss the negative sexual impact many or most experience from condoms.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2010, 09:50:14 PM »
cite ur evidence and/or refute my mathematical statements about infectivity earlier. what u think is helpful isn't my concern, the dilemma faced by the original poster is. it remains true that no harangue here has a snowball's chance in hell of maintaining the erection on the part of the OP's bf. it remains true that a sero-discordant sexual relationship will always present some degree of risk to the negative partner, unless one stretches the definition of "sex" to comical extent. it is up to the OP to judge what risks he is willing to take to be with his intrinsically risky partner.

if ur going to dismiss the Swiss statement, make a better go of it than u have...becuz u'll never be able to dismiss the negative sexual impact many or most experience from condoms.

News Flash: Penetrative Sex is risky!

So the OP says "Hey my boyfriend who is poz wants to bareback me.  I'm negative and he doesn't like condoms.  What should I do?"

Response, "If you don't want to become positive your best bet is condom use which lowers the risk significantly, otherwise I wouldn't engage in penetrative sex with guy"

I'm not even going to dignify your refutation of condoms being an effective means of preventing HIV transmission because it's probably one of the stupidest things I've ever read on these forums so far.  Condoms aren't 100% effective, but neither is anything else.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2010, 09:58:23 PM »
In addition to some other suggestions given on this post, perhaps, pos bf could see about Viagra or cialis -- in addition to trying various exercises to improve his problem regarding getting/maintaining erection with a condom on.

I think the important thing here is that the OP is seeking some guidance.  Ultimately, once in the bedroom we all make our own decisions --- hopefully, he will make the wise one.  I was in his shoes before and obvious we see the decision I made. 

I think there are a lot of people who think that because HIV has become more of a manageable condition that there is nothing wrong with taking that chance of contracting it.  As I'm sure many LTSs would agree, if we didn't have many of the meds we have now and the "manageability" maybe there would not be so many who think that it may be a negligible risk.   Just thinking out loud here...
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2010, 09:58:57 PM »
News Flash: Penetrative Sex is risky!

So the OP says "Hey my boyfriend who is poz wants to bareback me.  I'm negative and he doesn't like condoms.  What should I do?"

Response, "If you don't want to become positive your best bet is condom use which lowers the risk significantly, otherwise I wouldn't engage in penetrative sex with guy"

I'm not even going to dignify your refutation of condoms being an effective means of preventing HIV transmission because it's probably one of the stupidest things I've ever read on these forums so far.  Condoms aren't 100% effective, but neither is anything else.

 ;D ur parting flame is circular and incompetent. condoms r an effective means of reducing risk, not preventing it...that's the semantic difference between "98% effective" and "100%. effective"
effective ARV treatment is also an effective means of reducing risk, not preventing it. up to 99.999% effective, according to the Swiss Health Authorities, whom i trust far more than i trust u, but still not 100% effective.

combining them could potentially equal 99.99998% effective, but still not 100% effective. the cost of combining them equals erectile dysfunction on the part of his current partner, and a large percntage of future partners.

try again.

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2010, 10:01:29 PM »
been there, done that. not interested. they all suck.
you seem a little dismissive, pretty quickly, of a product that will save lives (by not allowing someone to be infected with a terminal disease). I'm sorry that you aren't able to get an adequate sexual sensation when you have tried various brands of condoms. Obviously nearly all males that use condoms (because it's awfully hard to use condoms when you can't keep it up ;)) either don't have that issue, or have taken it in stride offsetting the protection of their partner and/or themselves.

Hopefully, the OP will be able to get his BF to try various condoms and find the right fit (as this is about advice to the OP on how to get his BF to wear a rubber; not really about who else in the forums can't keep it up with a rubber on) Especially when it's such an easy aide to have his partner use to ensure that the virus won't be passed on.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2010, 10:08:14 PM »
you seem a little dismissive, pretty quickly, of a product that will save lives (by not allowing someone to be infected with a terminal disease). I'm sorry that you aren't able to get an adequate sexual sensation when you have tried various brands of condoms. Obviously nearly all males that use condoms (because it's awfully hard to use condoms when you can't keep it up ;)) either don't have that issue, or have taken it in stride offsetting the protection of their partner and/or themselves.

Hopefully, the OP will be able to get his BF to try various condoms and find the right fit (as this is about advice to the OP on how to get his BF to wear a rubber; not really about who else in the forums can't keep it up with a rubber on) Especially when it's such an easy aide to have his partner use to ensure that the virus won't be passed on.

i am indeed dismissive of the wasted time and effort of attempting to warp my sexual proclivity to the requirements of circa 1987 hiv-prevention thought. what u describe this thread being about it actually ur own agenda, n that of most of the other posters here. the agenda of the original poster was actually to ask for advice and reactions.

i say trying to get his bf to use condoms and enjoy sex with them is probably a lost cause, i say aruging that likelihood over the internet is comical and tone-deaf. either he should leave his bf, or limit their sexual activities to ones they both enjoy at risk levels acceptable to both. presuming to focus only on overcoming the bf's ED on rubber is just silly.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2010, 10:10:41 PM »
funny thought went thru my head - like the commercial for e-trade with the baby in the plane that says "dad... dad" when he hears the pilot.....    I almost wanted to say rjane?..... rjane....
some will know what I mean.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2010, 10:11:25 PM »
what u describe this thread being about it actually ur own agenda, n that of most of the other posters here. the agenda of the original poster was actually to ask for advice and reactions.

Give it a rest, Mary.  We gave our reactions.  What was that about an agenda?  Would you mean yours?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2010, 10:12:08 PM »
I almost wanted to say rjane?..... rjane....
some will know what I mean.

note change of avatar
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2010, 10:14:04 PM »
Ms. P -
I love it   ;D
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2010, 10:14:33 PM »
Give it a rest, Mary.  We gave our reactions.  What was that about an agenda?  Would you mean yours?

 ::) mine, urs, po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe. my name isn't 'mary' n i'll respond freely as i choose. :)

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2010, 10:30:07 PM »
either he should leave his bf, or limit their sexual activities to ones they both enjoy at risk levels acceptable to both.
I couldn't agree more!
presuming to focus only on overcoming the bf's ED on rubber is just silly.
and just as logical an option as your options is another choice - overcoming the psychological/physical problem behind having a weak woody in a wrapper.

The OP clearly came asking for options, not a limitation on options. Unless YOU are the boyfriend, you surely cannot testify whether he has tried this option yet, or whether he couldn't find appropriate fitting condoms that gave him the sensations that he desired.

Many men can be helped with their erectile dysfunctions (with psycho or physio causes); so don't rule out that option

(and IMHO, losing a hardon just because you wrapped a piece of latex around an erection definitely sounds like an ED issue to me  ;D)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2010, 10:43:49 PM »
I couldn't agree more!and just as logical an option as your options is another choice - overcoming the psychological/physical problem behind having a weak woody in a wrapper.

The OP clearly came asking for options, not a limitation on options. Unless YOU are the boyfriend, you surely cannot testify whether he has tried this option yet, or whether he couldn't find appropriate fitting condoms that gave him the sensations that he desired.

Many men can be helped with their erectile dysfunctions (with psycho or physio causes); so don't rule out that option

(and IMHO, losing a hardon just because you wrapped a piece of latex around an erection definitely sounds like an ED issue to me  ;D)

oh, i have no problem with his bf trying every condom he can get his hands on, n i state no limit on his options (except one, which i'll get to) but i don't see why u choose to make unsupported statements. ur "humble opinion" has failed to produce the universal acceptance of condoms that many prevention activists still cling to as a viable goal. ur 'humble opinion' is basically to presume a false consensus that using condoms is natural and/or "no big deal", and that anyone who can't hack it has something wrong with them.

whether or not the OP continues his relationship with his bf, i simply don't see "tell ur bf that if he really loves u he'll find a way to enjoy condoms, or hit the road cuz he aint no real man anyway" is silly, and the presumptuousness of it is showing its age.

now, u can go back n forth between addressing just the OP's bf issue, or making claims about men n condoms in general, but don't be a hypocrite in telling me to just stick to the issue of the OP's bf. :)

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2010, 10:54:00 PM »
Unless YOU are the boyfriend

A distinct possibility.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline leatherman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2010, 11:00:18 PM »
i simply don't see "tell ur bf that if he really loves u he'll find a way to enjoy condoms, or hit the road cuz he aint no real man anyway" is silly,
No one said that the bf should take a hike because he wasn't a "real man".
there you go projecting yourself into this situation again. :D LOL Just kiddin'

Seems to me most people are worried about the partner's lack of concern about the transmission possibility, not the perfomance issue per se - because the perfomance issue can be perhaps be worked out.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline next2u

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2010, 11:34:02 PM »
just to chime in...

have you tried using female condoms? that way he isnt wearing one and the sensation might be better.

best,
d
midapr07 - seroconversion
sept07 - tested poz
oct07 cd4 1013; vl 13,900; cd4% 41
feb08 cd4  694;  vl 16,160; cd4% 50.1
may08 cd4 546; vl 91,480; cd4% 32
aug08 cd4 576; vl 48,190; cd4% 40.7
dec08 cd4 559; vl 63,020; cd4% 29.4
feb09 cd4 464; vl 11,000; cd4% 26
may09 cd4 544; vl 29,710; cd4% 27.2
oct09 cd4 ...; vl 23,350; cd4% 31.6
mar10 cd4 408; vl 59,050; cd4% 31.4
aug10 cd4 328; vl 80,000; cd4% 19.3 STARTED ATRIPLA
oct10 cd4 423; vl 410 ;); cd4% 30.2
jun11 cd4 439; vl <20 ;); cd4% 33.8 <-Undetectable!
mar12 cd4 695; vl ud; cd4% 38.6
jan13 cd4 738; vl ud; cd4% 36.8
aug13 cd4 930; vl ud; cd4% 44.3
jan14 cd4 813; vl ud; cd4% 42.8
may14 cd4 783; vl *; cd4%43.5

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2010, 11:47:35 PM »
just to chime in...

have you tried using female condoms? that way he isnt wearing one and the sensation might be better.

best,
d

some users do report that female condoms feel better for the insertive partner. others like the "pleasure-enz" condoms, with extra material near the head that bags up. Trojan makes an interesting variant that's tight around the base but balloons up for about 60% of the shaft, so that the material bunches up n more closely approximates the behavior/sensation of vaginal and anal tissue. for me these don't cut it either, but they're better than the standard.

the very fact that such is the case is an indictment of condom design in general. they need to be stronger, thinner and far more pleasurable if they're going to be the primary tool of HIV-transmission prevention.

stoically insisting that condoms r no big deal is itself a matter of one's own projection, "Leatherman"...there's a reason most people hate condoms, and it's because they deaden sensation in the least desirable way possible...sexually. pretending otherwise is a proven failure, rare indeed is the person who uses condoms becuz they're as pleasurable or more pleasurable than going raw. for most men, the reverse will always be true...at least with condoms in ALL of their present forms.

if u really hope to change that, changing condoms will prove far easier than changing male neurology and overall biology. especially thru internet argument!

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2010, 12:09:48 AM »
You seem to run into more relationships with poz guys than needed. Hopefully this is teaching you something so that you never have to post an entry in the "I Just Tested Poz" forum.

This guys says that he loves you (?), yet he wants to dump a load of potentially HIV-laden cum in your system.

I may be wrong, but [as far as I recall] discussions around the Swiss study have highlighted the fact that the concentration of virus in seminal fluid may be higher than what is found in peripheral blood.

My advice and opinion (not an agenda as hinted by the guy with poor spelling skills) is that you dump this person.  His mentality around protection is not going to change.

kthxbi!
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2010, 12:18:06 AM »
You seem to run into more relationships with poz guys than needed. Hopefully this is teaching you something so that you never have to post an entry in the "I Just Tested Poz" forum.

This guys says that he loves you (?), yet he wants to dump a load of potentially HIV-laden cum in your system.

I may be wrong, but [as far as I recall] discussions around the Swiss study have highlighted the fact that the concentration of virus in seminal fluid may be higher than what is found in peripheral blood.

My advice and opinion (not an agenda as hinted by the guy with poor spelling skills) is that you dump this person.  His mentality around protection is not going to change.

kthxbi!

 ::) it is rather unlikely that someone with a "consistently undetectable viral load" is "hiv-laden", n the relationship between blood viral load and seminal viral load is more complex than u describe.

http://www.thebody.com/content/treat/art49400.html

Undetectable Viral Loads and Transmission

The Swiss expert statement had been originally downplayed in the media for fear of encouraging more unsafe sex. One applauds the Swiss for encouraging individuals to get tested and begin effective treatment, thereby slowing the transmission of the virus within the community. The Swiss statement and referenced studies, however, were also criticized due to being heterosexually based and debated as to its application to the MSM population or gay community. But it also generated irrational fear that HIV transmission would get out of control.

Hence the Australasian rejection and conclusion of only the strict use of condoms plus early treatment of STIs being the only means to reduce transmission of HIV. However this continues to beg for further debate. It is fruitless to ignore that effective antiretroviral therapy eliminates HIV from genital secretions, and that HIV RNA, measured in sperm, declines below the limits of detection on antiretroviral therapy. HIV RNA also falls below the detection limits in female genital secretions during effective antiretroviral therapy. Moreover, usually sperm cell viral particles rise only after an increase in viral load from the blood. The cell-associated viral gene particles, present in genital secretions during effective antiretroviral therapy, are actually non-infectious virions; HIV-containing cells in sperm lack markers of viral proliferations such as circular LTR-DNA.

Thus it's logical to abstract that less virus (undetectable) translates to less ability to transmit HIV to others. There can never be a prospectively conducted ethical study since one can't ask HIV-negative individuals to participate in having unprotected sex with undetectable positives.

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2010, 12:27:17 AM »
::) it is rather unlikely that someone with a "consistently undetectable viral load" is "hiv-laden", n the relationship between blood viral load and seminal viral load is more complex than u describe.

Queen, please.  Rolling your eyes doesn't make you an authority in the field. Did you notice the word "potentially" or does the rjane syndrome come with a visual deficiency as well?

Read all that you want into that study.  Until we get concrete, valid proof that we can't infect others once we reach UD levels the OP needs to think of all possibilities.

I will not engage in further discussion with you.  I don't feed sock puppets as they lack a digestive system.

::on ignore::

kthxbi
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2010, 12:30:11 AM »
Queen, please.  Rolling your eyes doesn't make you an authority in the field. Did you notice the word "potentially" or does the rjane syndrome come with a visual deficiency as well?

Read all that you want into that study.  Until we get concrete, valid proof that we can't infect others once we reach UD levels the OP needs to think of all possibilities.

I will not engage in further discussion with you.  I don't feed sock puppets as they lack a digestive system.

::on ignore::

kthxbi

ur reading comprehension is poor, the only PREVENTION is abstinence, the rest is all harm/risk REDUCTION, n the costs n benefits of various mechanisms of harm REDUCTION.

feels like i've walked into a deluded cult!

Offline U1195

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2010, 03:08:14 AM »
I'm very much in love with my boyfriend, he is on atripla and has been undetectable for over 6 months.
He has a major issue with using condoms and can't stay hard when using them.
He says now that he's undetectable there is very little risk of infecting me.
I am aware of the Swiss Statement and that his infectiousness is dramatically reduced but I still worry. He would like to stop condoms altogether. I can't imagine life without him.

Any advice?
Anyone in serodiscordant relationships? Would unprotected sex with my bf be an insane decision?
Well u donot have any children in ur relationship und u are not married,so what is the problem
not separating so that ur bf finds someone else who is pos and he can have unprotected sex with?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 03:17:51 AM by U1195 »

Offline carousel

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2010, 06:19:56 AM »
I was just wondering if the fact that you were in a relationship and managed to not get infected is playing any part in this.  In that, you might be thinking that you could manage the same in the other relationship.

I was with somebody for just over a year where we never used condoms.  Managed to stay uninfected, but it was only a matter of time that I got infected by another partner.

I hate condoms, even with all the information out there and I kind of see your boyfriend's position.  I just think, as others obviously do, that if you have a choice not to get infected, take it no matter heartache it may cause.  In the long term, I think you will be glad.

As you don't seemingly have a problem with wearing condoms, why not find a boyf who feels the same.


Offline Ann

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2010, 10:30:12 AM »
phildinftlaudy, Miss Philicia, and livebythemoon,

I understand that you probably think you're being protective of the forums when you accuse a new member of being a sockpuppet, but please STOP. Just because someone disagrees with what you say doesn't mean they're a sock.

In future, if you have suspicions about a member, either use the report button or PM me. DO NOT take it upon yourselves to publicly chastise. All this does is make new people afraid to post for being attacked. So while you may think you're protecting the forums, you're actually doing the opposite.

I was going to give you three this warning via PM, (and yes, it is a warning) but I decided to do it in public so that everyone will know the score where this is concerned. Attacking people with accusations of sockpuppetry isn't on.

Oh, and while I'm at it, the same thing applies if you suspect that someone is a denialist. DO NOT attack them in a thread, report or PM.

Once again, just to make it crystal clear, if you have any kind of suspicions about a forum member, use the report button or PM me. DO NOT go on the attack in a thread.

As always, thank you for your cooperation.

And for the record, while Jeton has a somewhat abrasive debating/writing style, there is no indication that he is anyone's sock. So knock it off!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2010, 05:18:51 PM »
wow...thank you for that.

Offline Nestor

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2010, 05:29:41 PM »
Quote
becuz u'll never be able to dismiss the negative sexual impact many or most experience from condoms.

Quote
for most men, the reverse will always be true...

Upon what evidence are you basing these assertions about most men?  Surely not your own experience, considering the way in which you dismissed my experience as grounds for my position--

Quote
the sex u have is not the sex everyone else has...ur sensation is not other's sensation..ur suspicions r irrelevant to my experience.

The sex I have is also the sex my sex partners have.  Then there are my friends, numbers of men who have had healthy, active sex lives, with numbers of partners, always with condoms.  None of them has HIV, and they are perfectly happy with their sex lives.  I offered the combined experience of myself and others as part of the total human picture here.  I never claimed to speak for all people or to represent the totality of the human sexual experience.  And I appreciate your honesty about your own feelings and experience.  But as your posts here have tended to imply that your own attitudes towards condoms are representative of the norm--many if not most men, then just plain most men--it is a little ironic of you to turn around and dismiss my experience.

I would like to address a bit more the question of the effectiveness of condoms:  

Quote
there's a typically cited "98% effective" statistic, which means that studies show condoms provide 100% barrier protection unless they FAIL, which is ostensibly measured at 1 failure for every 50 uses "when used as directed".

First of all, I offered my experience--fifteen years of sex without one incident of condom breakage--as one modest contribution to informal information gathering.  If others here would contribute with information about their experience, we might begin to develop a picture of how often breakage happens in the real world.  

Googling the question I find the following:

Quote
Respondents were
544 men aged 18 to 54 years. Of these, 402 men reported using
13,691 condoms for vaginal or anal intercourse; 7.3% reportedly
broke during application or use and 4.4% slipped off. Men having
sex with men reported slightly higher slippage rates than those
having sex with women. Breakage and slippage were unevenly
distributed among the sample: a few men experienced very high
failure rates.
A volunteer subsample reported 3 months later on
condoms supplied to them: 36 men used 529 condoms, of which 2.8
broke during application or use and 3.4% slipped off. Many of these
failures pose no risk to the user, especially those occurring
during application, as long as they are noticed at the time
, but
failure may discourage future use. Research is needed to identify
user behaviours related to breakage.

The sentence I highlighted is, I think, crucial: these percentages are somehow skewed.  After all, if I've never had a condom break, whereas you are capable of saying the following:

Quote
"98% effective" is a false claim in my experience. if u play harder than "normal", the breakage rate is more like 1 in FIVE, not 1 in 50. all at the cost of sensation.

Then there must be a fairly wide difference between the experience of different people.  And, before you ask, while I've never been involved in sex that resulted in a broken wall or anything like that, I've been involved in some pretty energetic episodes, so I do not think it is a question of the vigor of movement.  What could it be?  

Quote
Risk of condom failure in a
single episode was fairly high, particularly in anal intercourse,
for men who had engaged in each act only a few times in the
previous year. It declined rapidly with experience (e.g., to below
1% for receptive anal intercourse after about 10 episodes in the
previous year)...Gay men should be especially cautious the first few
times they use a condom; after moderate experience, however, they
may expect a low risk of condom failure.

So, experienced lovers have few episodes of condom breakage--below 1%!--whereas inexperienced ones have many such episodes?

A third study reports the following:

Quote
In nearly 2,000 intercourses 14 different types of condoms
were tested by 80 heterosexual and seven homosexual volunteer
couples. The test couples were generally quite experienced in the
use of condoms. It appears that the condoms rarely (1.3%) ruptured
or slipped off during the actual intercourse.

And:

Quote
In order to
gain insight into condom breakage, a questionnaire was administered
to women attending a municipal hospital family planning clinic.
Thirty-six percent of the 106 subjects had experienced at least one
condom breakage.
Condom breakage occurred in approximately 1 out
of 100 acts of intercourse using condoms, with a lifetime breakage
rate of 10 per 1000 condom uses and a past year breakage rate of
8 per 1000 condom uses.

That means that 64% of those women had never experienced condom breakage, which further means that even the low rates this study goes on to cite--one percent, and less than one percent in the previous year--are not evenly distributed, but were concentrated in 36% of the people surveyed.  After all, we have your own evidence that there are people for whom 1in 5 condoms breaking would be a reasonable estimate!  Therefore, it is plausible to assume the following: the majority of people have very few episodes of breakage, and even of th small number of breakages reported, the vast majority are happening with a handful of people, and can be attributed to the habits of the user and not to the quality of the condom.  

I think, being adults, we can agree that we would all prefer not to use condoms, for obvious reasons.  I know I certainly would.  But "condomless sex would be better" does not lead logically to "it is so much better that I am willing to risk HIV for it."  I would prefer to eat regularly at a few wildly expensive restaurants.  I am sure the fare they offer is better than what I am accustomed to eating.  I do not bankrupt myself in order to do so, because the experience would not be worth bankruptcy; in fact the fare I usually eat is quite good.  Same with condoms.  I've had no shortage of really great sex, with condoms.  Whatever small improvement condomless sex might offer is not worth breaking up relationships over and it certainly isn't worth getting HIV or, worse, giving HIV to someone else.  

The choices before Past are 1. to break up with the current boyfriend, 2. to take a chance on condomless sex, 3. to have only non-penetrative sex, and 4. To insist on sex with condoms.  Without knowing a lot more about the relationship I would never presume to give advice.  But for Past and everyone else, I would like to make a simple plea for sanity.  I think there are a lot of people out there who got HIV from unsafe sex who would never have been tempted to have unsafe sex if they had not heard others going on and on about how horrible condoms are and how much better "raw" or "bareback" sex is.  And after a while, that kind of hype gets to people.  If my friends went on and on day after day about how great the ice-cream at a certain place is, I'd start feeling that I was missing something if I never tried it.  The fact is, the one episode of condomless sex that I had, that gave me HIV, was no better than any sex with condoms, and a lot of sex with condoms has been a lot better than it.  
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2010, 05:52:36 PM »
Upon what evidence are you basing these assertions about most men?  Surely not your own experience, considering the way in which you dismissed my experience as grounds for my position--

The sex I have is also the sex my sex partners have.  Then there are my friends, numbers of men who have had healthy, active sex lives, with numbers of partners, always with condoms.  None of them has HIV, and they are perfectly happy with their sex lives.  I offered the combined experience of myself and others as part of the total human picture here.  I never claimed to speak for all people or to represent the totality of the human sexual experience.  And I appreciate your honesty about your own feelings and experience.  But as your posts here have tended to imply that your own attitudes towards condoms are representative of the norm--many if not most men, then just plain most men--it is a little ironic of you to turn around and dismiss my experience.

I would like to address a bit more the question of the effectiveness of condoms:  

First of all, I offered my experience--fifteen years of sex without one incident of condom breakage--as one modest contribution to informal information gathering.  If others here would contribute with information about their experience, we might begin to develop a picture of how often breakage happens in the real world.  

Googling the question I find the following:

The sentence I highlighted is, I think, crucial: these percentages are somehow skewed.  After all, if I've never had a condom break, whereas you are capable of saying the following:

Then there must be a fairly wide difference between the experience of different people.  And, before you ask, while I've never been involved in sex that resulted in a broken wall or anything like that, I've been involved in some pretty energetic episodes, so I do not think it is a question of the vigor of movement.  What could it be?  

So, experienced lovers have few episodes of condom breakage--below 1%!--whereas inexperienced ones have many such episodes?

A third study reports the following:

And:

That means that 64% of those women had never experienced condom breakage, which further means that even the low rates this study goes on to cite--one percent, and less than one percent in the previous year--are not evenly distributed, but were concentrated in 36% of the people surveyed.  After all, we have your own evidence that there are people for whom 1in 5 condoms breaking would be a reasonable estimate!  Therefore, it is plausible to assume the following: the majority of people have very few episodes of breakage, and even of th small number of breakages reported, the vast majority are happening with a handful of people, and can be attributed to the habits of the user and not to the quality of the condom.  

I think, being adults, we can agree that we would all prefer not to use condoms, for obvious reasons.  I know I certainly would.  But "condomless sex would be better" does not lead logically to "it is so much better that I am willing to risk HIV for it."  I would prefer to eat regularly at a few wildly expensive restaurants.  I am sure the fare they offer is better than what I am accustomed to eating.  I do not bankrupt myself in order to do so, because the experience would not be worth bankruptcy; in fact the fare I usually eat is quite good.  Same with condoms.  I've had no shortage of really great sex, with condoms.  Whatever small improvement condomless sex might offer is not worth breaking up relationships over and it certainly isn't worth getting HIV or, worse, giving HIV to someone else.  

The choices before Past are 1. to break up with the current boyfriend, 2. to take a chance on condomless sex, 3. to have only non-penetrative sex, and 4. To insist on sex with condoms.  Without knowing a lot more about the relationship I would never presume to give advice.  But for Past and everyone else, I would like to make a simple plea for sanity.  I think there are a lot of people out there who got HIV from unsafe sex who would never have been tempted to have unsafe sex if they had not heard others going on and on about how horrible condoms are and how much better "raw" or "bareback" sex is.  And after a while, that kind of hype gets to people.  If my friends went on and on day after day about how great the ice-cream at a certain place is, I'd start feeling that I was missing something if I never tried it.  The fact is, the one episode of condomless sex that I had, that gave me HIV, was no better than any sex with condoms, and a lot of sex with condoms has been a lot better than it.  

 :o well now, that ended on a more histrionic note than i expected! i'd be curious about the sample collection procedures n subject details in the study u cite, partly to deconstruct them against ur implications...bcuz u omit the simple fact that studies that call for mandatory condom usage will invariably draw a skewed sample of people willing to use condoms in the first place.

some of us play harder than others, some of us r built differently. ur post is rife with all the internal conflicts of condom orthodoxy...which is no big deal. i just need to point out that orthodoxy has lost grip on many men in my experience, bcuz i happen to be a both contented and choosy slut. mere argument and "activism" is not going to influence us. if condoms r to be a longterm, multidecade burden on male sexuality, condoms need a rethink, period. i find it comical that u'd conclude by calling for my silence on the premise that my posts may cause people too much temptation and distress.

u might have considered taking seriously the idea that we need to pressure manufacturers to make better and cheaper condoms. 8)

Offline BT65

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2010, 06:07:04 PM »
Well, as far as "cheaper condoms," they can be gotten for free at Aids Service Organizations.  Personally, I let the other person, if they're HIV-, decide. (the last person I had sex with was HIV+, so we went sans condoms).  The last two relationships I've had have been with neg partners and neither would wear a condom.  I didn't insist on one, I figure the decision, once the poz status is known, is on the neg partner.  I would never ask a person to not wear a condom, however.  This is just my opinion, it's not bible for everyone. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2010, 06:28:48 PM »
Well, as far as "cheaper condoms," they can be gotten for free at Aids Service Organizations.  Personally, I let the other person, if they're HIV-, decide. (the last person I had sex with was HIV+, so we went sans condoms).  The last two relationships I've had have been with neg partners and neither would wear a condom.  I didn't insist on one, I figure the decision, once the poz status is known, is on the neg partner.  I would never ask a person to not wear a condom, however.  This is just my opinion, it's not bible for everyone. 

of course that's true, except for the more recent designs that (for many) better simulate the REAL feeling. of those, female condoms r the only ones i've ever seen dispensed freely. this might be a useful addition:

http://pleasureplus.com/

as far as "asking", i only even speak of sex with potential partners in raw terms from the get-go. advertising myself as condom-free all keeps me free of negotiation.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2010, 07:06:18 PM »
Sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV
Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in
preventing transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. In addition, correct
and consistent use of latex condoms can reduce the risk of other sexually
transmitted diseases (STDs), including discharge and genital ulcer diseases.
While the effect of condoms in preventing human papilloma virus (HPV) infection
is unknown, condom use has been associated with a lower rate of cervical
cancer, an HPV-associated disease. Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/condoms.pdf

Offline Ann

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2010, 12:14:49 PM »

 while I've never been involved in sex that resulted in a broken wall or anything like that, I've been involved in some pretty energetic episodes, so I do not think it is a question of the vigor of movement.  What could it be? 


The two most common reasons condoms break are 1) not using any or enough lube and 2) leaving an air bubble in the tip of the condom when putting it on. If the condom is on properly and generous amounts of lube is used, condom failure should be next to nothing. For "energetic" (lol) sex or sex that lasts for a long time, lube should be re-applied from time to time. A good time to re-lube is when changing positions. You also need to make sure you're using a water-based lube when using latex condoms.

I don't much like condoms myself, but I do what I have to do to protect a negative partner.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

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Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2010, 12:17:26 PM »
wow.. I was happy to see over 50 replies to my posting... though a little disappointed after reading them.
The majority of you people used my plea for some insight and advice as an outlet to bicker and argue with one another over digressed topics...

A sincere thank-you to those who actually read what I had asked and tried to help me with my problem. I still don't have a real solution, but I appreciate your time in voicing opinions.

to the rest of you.. don't try so hard to be right.. it's not what this forum is for.

..But I was stupid to seek advice from strangers in the first place I guess.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2010, 12:37:39 PM »
Hi Past!

I was wondering when you might stop back in. I don't think you were stupid to seek advice from strangers---it happens all the time---the Am I Infected forum here, 911, Suicide Hotlines, paramedics, first time dental appointments, and more.

Hopefully, there was enough offered here to help you in your decision making process.

Bottomline, and most importantly, anyone who is positive knows the impact and doesn't want you to become positive. And, that's from a group of complete strangers. We care about you and would hope that you maintain a negative status even if we risk being overbearing, with you or each other, in the process of expressing ourselves.

Just like being attracted to a complete stranger, ya never know where a thread will end up, do ya?
So forgive us our individuality -- what unites us is intention.

Em

Online mecch

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2010, 01:52:35 PM »
I have been in several discordant relationships as HIV-.  Now I am HIV+.

Despite all the sound opinions here about how crazy it would be to consider bare sex with your BF, I think it is  a reasonable thing to "consider" - but choosing to go bare would imply a lot more responsibility.  There would be some risk for you. So the decision has to be entirely your own, and you need to be ready to own it completely.  So what would happen to you, or him, or your couple, if by chance that decision led to you seroconverting?  Would that destroy you? Him? Your relationship.  It just seems easier and more hopeful to choose to stay protected, for the time being at least. You haven't been together that long. You can discover all sorts of things about your partner over the years - really.
One of my partners kept his HIV+ status hidden from me for several years. And we always had safe sex. Nevertheless I was shocked by the deception - that he would choose to do it, and that he could succeed, as well.

You know I was undetectable for 6 months and I already had blip.  Maybe its NOT EVEN a blip - I'm waiting to see.  What if your bf had a blip and neither of you knew it.  What if he had HAART failure and his viral load went up to quite clearly transmissable risk?  There is not necessarily anything to tell an HIV+ that he is experiencing a rebound in his/her viral load.  And these days, people are getting labs 2-3 times a year, not even every season...

In the flush of new love, people are ready to do a lot for the other and the relationship and thats really cool and important.  So its reasonable that the topic came up between you two.  The two choices have quite different possible outcomes.


“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2010, 03:04:24 PM »
Just because one is undetectable in their blood serum levels does not mean they are undetectable in their semen levels.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2010, 03:20:41 PM »
Just because one is undetectable in their blood serum levels does not mean they are undetectable in their semen levels.

no, but having undetectable levels of HIV in blood DOES mean that one is far more LIKELY to have undetectable HIV levels in semen. and that what viral matter does turn up in semen is more likely to be inactive virions.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2010, 03:22:35 PM »
Past

Just wondering if you saw Next's suggestion of the female condom? It was sort of in the middle of a heated discussion and I thought you might have missed it.  

Between using a female condom as an anal bottom and using a regular condom when topping you would be "covered" for anal sex without your boyfriend losing a lot of sensation.

(And risks from oral sex are pretty infinitesimal -- I don't think you would get the same reaction about your boyfriend being cavalier if we were only talking about oral sex)

A
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2010, 03:25:08 PM »
I can tell you for a fact that your information is incorrect. I have an undetectable serum viral load and have had for 5 years and I don't have a undetectable semen viral load. Have you ever had a semen viral load?

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2010, 03:48:28 PM »
I can tell you for a fact that your information is incorrect. I have an undetectable serum viral load and have had for 5 years and I don't have a undetectable semen viral load. Have you ever had a semen viral load?

is this meant as a serious response? not only have i never had a semen viral load test done, i'd wager the vaaaaast majority of poz men never have, either. i also haven't handled biological samples in test tubes since high school in the '80s. all of us in this discussion r epistemologically relying the research of others, and that research is what i highlighted earlier. u r a sample size of 1...and u didn't even mention WHAT ur semen viral load is. 100? 100,000? share.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2010, 03:53:58 PM »
is this meant as a serious response? not only have i never had a semen viral load test done, i'd wager the vaaaaast majority of poz men never have, either. i also haven't handled biological samples in test tubes since high school in the '80s. all of us in this discussion r epistemologically relying the research of others, and that research is what i highlighted earlier. u r a sample size of 1...and u didn't even mention WHAT ur semen viral load is. 100? 100,000? share.
Then I suggest you don't make an assumptions you can't back.

More Evidence that HIV Persists in Semen despite Undetectable Blood Viral Load
http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/recent/2008/090508_f.html

Reference
C Pasquier, N Moinard, K Sauné, and others. Persistent differences in the antiviral effects of highly active antiretroviral therapy in the blood and male genital tract [Correspondence]. AIDS 22(14): 1894-1896. September 12, 2008.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2010, 03:57:25 PM »
The two most common reasons condoms break are 1) not using any or enough lube and 2) leaving an air bubble in the tip of the condom when putting it on. If the condom is on properly and generous amounts of lube is used, condom failure should be next to nothing. For "energetic" (lol) sex or sex that lasts for a long time, lube should be re-applied from time to time. A good time to re-lube is when changing positions. You also need to make sure you're using a water-based lube when using latex condoms.

I don't much like condoms myself, but I do what I have to do to protect a negative partner.

not that i ever expect to be using condoms again myself, having wasted time with all the ostensibly constructive advice about "proper" usage. however, i do notice that i've yet to see anyone on this forum ever mention silicone lube, which is condom safe and lasts far longer than water based.

i'd also like to contrast the properties of such lube, in that it gets less slippery as it thins out from friction, but NEVER to a level of more friction than being lube free. contrast that with water based lube, many brands of which actually get sticky as they dry. like half-dry honey, n eventually like envelope glue.

the ultimate ideal for mechanical hiv-transmission-prevention has to be invisibility...the more one has to warp their sexual response around the mechanical requirements of prevention, the more onerous and resented the burden will be.

silicone lube and baggy condoms (male n female vairants) r probably the most serious innovations in mechanical safe-sex practices...i'm surprised they don't get more discussion here.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2010, 03:59:38 PM »
Reference
 AIDS 22(14): 1894-1896. September 12, 2008.


  I called that phone number Rod and some girl named Jenny answered.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2010, 04:03:53 PM »
  I called that phone number Rod and some girl named Jenny answered.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2010, 04:07:15 PM »
Then I suggest you don't make an assumptions you can't back.

More Evidence that HIV Persists in Semen despite Undetectable Blood Viral Load
http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/recent/2008/090508_f.html

Reference
C Pasquier, N Moinard, K Sauné, and others. Persistent differences in the antiviral effects of highly active antiretroviral therapy in the blood and male genital tract [Correspondence]. AIDS 22(14): 1894-1896. September 12, 2008.


nice link, old news. penetration of hiv-drugs into the genital tract is known to be less than in the bloodstream, n varies by drug. semen viral load lags behind blood viral load in many or most patients as a result...the duration and severity of that lag also being variable. all of this has been covered in the subsequent controversy of the Swiss statement. in fact, most of the coverage of the Swiss statement included variations on this "semen viral load" proviso from other authorities.

doesn't change the point at all. raw sex with a consistently undetectable partner is low risk. if anything, the upshot of ur link is that the longer one's blood levels of HIV r undetectable, the more likely one's semen (and presumably vaginal) viral load is to become undetectable.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2010, 04:11:48 PM »
nice link, old news. penetration of hiv-drugs into the genital tract is known to be less than in the bloodstream, n varies by drug. semen viral load lags behind blood viral load in many or most patients as a result...the duration and severity of that lag also being variable. all of this has been covered in the subsequent controversy of the Swiss statement. in fact, most of the coverage of the Swiss statement included variations on this "semen viral load" proviso from other authorities.

doesn't change the point at all. raw sex with a consistently undetectable partner is low risk. if anything, the upshot of ur link is that the longer one's blood levels of HIV r undetectable, the more likely one's semen (and presumably vaginal) viral load is to become undetectable.
Don't be posting incorrect information when you can't back up your statements with scientific facts.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2010, 04:14:05 PM »
Don't be posting incorrect information when you can't back up your statements with scientific facts.

dont speak to me in platitudes and generalities. my point stands n u've refuted nothing.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2010, 04:17:47 PM »
dont speak to me in platitudes and generalities. my point stands n u've refuted nothing.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/709947 Now post your scientific data to back up your incorrect information.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2010, 04:21:24 PM »
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/709947 Now post your scientific data to back up your incorrect information.

post whatevver that was HERE, i aint registering there. what specific information i posted do u claim is incorrect? be SPECIFIC.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2010, 04:24:02 PM »
post whatevver that was HERE, i aint registering there. what specific information i posted do u claim is incorrect? be SPECIFIC.
All of it so far.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2010, 04:25:17 PM »
All of it so far.


::)           as i expected, u come up short.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2010, 04:29:10 PM »


::)           as i expected, u come up short.
http://www.natap.org/2009/CROI/croi_157.htm Now back up where you got the information that you posted.

Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2010, 04:37:11 PM »


Thank you mecch and emeraldize for your input....

Offline emeraldize

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2010, 04:39:27 PM »
You're most welcome. Wishing you the best outcome in soul and body.

Online mecch

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2010, 08:44:56 PM »
there was this one one hiv discordant relationship  -- the top was prissy about condoms so they tried femidoms and the top thought they were utterly ridiculous and accepted condoms finally.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2010, 08:50:58 PM »
Prissy tops? 

::shudders::
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Online mecch

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2010, 09:10:54 PM »
"Did you know, in one leading survey almost half the people who object to condoms are emasculated heteros, followed by prissy gay tops at 40% and miscellaneous types for the final 10%"
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 09:23:28 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2010, 09:13:51 PM »
"Did you now, in one leading survey almost half the people who object to condoms are emasculated heteros, followed by prissy gay tops at 40% and miscellaneous types for the final 10%"

[citation needed]

:)

MtD

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2010, 11:30:27 PM »
http://www.natap.org/2009/CROI/croi_157.htm Now back up where you got the information that you posted.

no need, ur posting in semantically incompetent circles. "consistently undetectable" = low risk. ur own link sez so in the title:

HIV in Semen Despite Undetectable in Blood: "residual risk of transmission is still possible during unprotected intercourse"

here's some google definitions of "residual risk", for those who need them:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=aGK&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=define:residual+risk&defl=en&ei=pZOMS62FNYjelAe2jv2uDQ&sa=X&oi=definer&ct=&cd=4&ved=0CAcQowMoAw


next?

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2010, 11:56:52 PM »
"Did you know, in one leading survey almost half the people who object to condoms are emasculated heteros, followed by prissy gay tops at 40% and miscellaneous types for the final 10%"

it is precisely such comic propaganda that underlines the strategic weakness of relying on condoms in their various present forms for hiv-prevention among the sexually active.

my own ANECDOTAL experience is that there certainly appear to be far more men going raw than there r activists to tell those men how "prissy" and "emasculated" they are...and the men going raw r having a blast, sexually. my sexual enjoyment without condoms dwarfs what enjoyment i got with condoms, to such an extent that all arguments against my experience r simply absurd to me, and nothing more.

besides new and more pleasurable condoms, effective micobicidal lubricants r called for. there was that new experimental integrase inhibitor announced a couple of months ago that was long-lasting enuff to be used in sexual lubricant, as well as in pills requiring less than once-daily dosing... ???

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2010, 02:03:26 AM »
oh, here's an interesting Q&A about the possibility of eradicating new HIV infections with testing and treatment alone...taking for granted that "antiretroviral therapy would drive the viral load down, thereby drastically decreasing HIV-transmission risk"

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Fatigue/Archive/Other/Q207009.html?ic=700101

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2010, 02:05:48 AM »
Two things:

1. The plural of anecdote is not data;
2. The forums at thebody.com are shite.

MtD

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2010, 03:32:15 AM »
Two things:

1. The plural of anecdote is not data;
2. The forums at thebody.com are shite.

MtD

so u've got nothing, basically.

Past, ur taking  a risk going raw with ur bf, but the longer he's really undetectable, the lower that risk is. if ur gonna stay with him, but don't want to take his raw cock n load up ur ass, u may want to consider an open relationship...it works for some sero-discordant couples. for some tops like myself and possibly ur bf, mouth is a poor substitute for ass, and jerking off and "oodles' of other non-penetrative "sexual" acts r no substitute for ass or mouth.

if u decline to take his raw cock, u may be able to maintain a longterm commitment anyway...but eventually he's probably gonna want raw ass, n u might want to work out a mutually agreeable way for him to get it elsewhere if he's not getting it from u.

if u do decide to give him raw ass, maintaining his viral load at an undetectable level becomes something u'll have a greater interest in. in ur case i would insist on seeing test results, and making sure he takes his meds and avoids anything that interferes with those meds.

u also need to take ownership of the possibility of sero-converting, and how such an event will affect ur life. it is a small but real possibility...especially (but NOT only) if u go raw.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2010, 05:05:32 AM »
so u've got nothing, basically.

Past, ur taking  a risk going raw with ur bf, but the longer he's really undetectable, the lower that risk is. if ur gonna stay with him, but don't want to take his raw cock n load up ur ass, u may want to consider an open relationship...it works for some sero-discordant couples. for some tops like myself and possibly ur bf, mouth is a poor substitute for ass, and jerking off and "oodles' of other non-penetrative "sexual" acts r no substitute for ass or mouth.

if u decline to take his raw cock, u may be able to maintain a longterm commitment anyway...but eventually he's probably gonna want raw ass, n u might want to work out a mutually agreeable way for him to get it elsewhere if he's not getting it from u.

if u do decide to give him raw ass, maintaining his viral load at an undetectable level becomes something u'll have a greater interest in. in ur case i would insist on seeing test results, and making sure he takes his meds and avoids anything that interferes with those meds.

u also need to take ownership of the possibility of sero-converting, and how such an event will affect ur life. it is a small but real possibility...especially (but NOT only) if u go raw.
There you go again with your incorrect information.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2010, 08:41:15 AM »
LOL
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Online mecch

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2010, 09:50:27 AM »
This thread is x rated now just saying.
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Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2010, 12:16:53 PM »
There you go again with your incorrect information.

there u go with nothing to say again. don't see y the truth hurts u so much.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2010, 12:25:45 PM »
If the original poster wants to maintain their negative HIV status then they need to use a condom correctly and consistently for anal or vaginal sex.

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2010, 12:35:54 PM »
... Would unprotected sex with my bf be an insane decision?

The decision could be masochistic, suicidal, uninformed, ignorant, just plain stupid, and a longer litany but not necessarily insane.   Seek help from a mental health professional for further edification and treatment.

 
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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2010, 01:47:17 PM »
This thread is x rated now just saying.

I would say XXX... and inaccurate as Rod stated (thank you for quoting, I would've missed that mini-porn of a reply).

I'm sure that the OP will appreciate the vivid imagery nonetheless.

Bottom line dear OP, ask yourself what you love more: yourself and your health or a passing moment of pleasure. Where will this lover be three years down the road?  Have the two of you discussed what would happen if you were to become positive? The only person who can truly answer your original question is YOU. No love, lover, f-buddy (even if they were so phenomenal that sparks go flying in the bedroom), no orgasm is worth one's life. Believe me when I say that most of us would do things differently if only time could be turned back.   
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Ann

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2010, 01:49:51 PM »

Bottom line dear OP, ask yourself what you love more: yourself and your health or a passing moment of pleasure.
 

Absolutely. Sex without a condom last for a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever!!!
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Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2010, 02:46:55 PM »
thanks everyone who tried to help me out..

this is the last time I check for responses and last time I ever use this site for advice


-peace & love-

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2010, 02:48:44 PM »
and last time I ever use this site for advice


something wrong?
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2010, 03:18:58 PM »
thanks everyone who tried to help me out..

this is the last time I check for responses and last time I ever use this site for advice


-peace & love-

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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2010, 03:28:43 PM »
thanks everyone who tried to help me out..

this is the last time I check for responses and last time I ever use this site for advice


-peace & love-

ah dunn gitty?

Just because a few people had some disagreements you feel that any advice that was given should be discarded?  That's what the ignore function is for (even if you feel that you should use it on me or anyone else who at some point got distracted by all the noise within this thread).

Hopefully you weren't expecting us to encourage you to have unprotected sex. That's not what we're here for at all. 

Best of health to you.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2010, 04:30:34 PM »
Hi Past:
Sorry you feel the way you do about the discussion in the thread you originated.
Your initial opening post contained these words:

"Any advice?
Anyone in serodiscordant relationships? Would unprotected sex with my bf be an insane decision?"

I looked up the definition of advice:
"recommendation about action: somebody's opinion about what another person should do"

I believe, if you read through the responses to your posts that is what you got - advice (recommendations and opinions)
Now, if there was something else you were seeking then it would be your responsibility to identify that and go from there (i.e. "not looking for advice, just wanted to hear from other people who are okay with not using condoms with a positive, undetectable person", etc.) -- believe me when I say that I am not saying that to be flippant with you.  I really just feel that you got frustrated at the responses and conversation that your initial post generated, but that is what happens when a great number of people are posed a question that specifically asks for advice -- there are a great number of opinions that you will get each either supported or in some cases not supported by facts - but remember that opinion isn't always fact - it is just that, opinion.
If you ask for a advice and get frustrated it is something like asking someone to loan you $5 and when they say no you get upset --  if you get upset you really weren't asking - you were demanding/commanding.  So, if you truly were seeking advice and you get different opinions then don't be frustrated; if you are frustrated then maybe it wasn't actually advice you were seeking, but approval for a decision that you have already made up your mind about (neither wrong with either, but different results in regards to how you will feel after you've made a post and people have given input.)   
All the best :)
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Moffie65

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2010, 04:34:14 PM »
Past,
I don't care about the arguements going on in this thread, but I must say that if someone is not going to put on a condom to keep you safe, yet they declare their love for you; then they truly don't love you, or themselves for that matter.  If sustaining an erection is the problem, then a shopping trip to a sex store, or ACE Hardware is in order.  I have used cockrings for most of my life, and they work miracles in keeping an erection going for hours.

O've been in a serodiscordant relationship for 22 years, and he is still HIV-. 

Nuff Said.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Doughboyjbird

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2010, 10:33:08 AM »
Just my 2 cent.  I have been positive for 22 years, meds for 14 and been with my negative partner for 13 years.  Even though I have been Undetectable for 3 years, I would never, NEVER, put my partner is a risky situation.  My love for him is too strong and I could not live with myself knowing I gave the man that I love more than anything in this work, HIV.

Sorry if I offended anyone!

Jay

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #100 on: March 03, 2010, 10:58:05 AM »
it appears that a sizable segment of the poz community isn't represented here, based on my own experience immersed in NYC's poz community. given the reflexive but outdated pc groupthink in here, that's not surprising.

basically, the number of "magnetic" couples going raw based on consistently undetectable viral load will continue to grow, someone will eventually get around to studying this sub-population en-masse over time, and some new hybrid orthodoxy will emerge for some people here to internalize n bark at other people. :D

i hope Past (the OP) got useful information, despite his parting hissyfit. all is not peace n love in this world...

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #101 on: March 03, 2010, 11:01:42 AM »
Just my 2 cent.  I have been positive for 22 years, meds for 14 and been with my negative partner for 13 years.  Even though I have been Undetectable for 3 years, I would never, NEVER, put my partner is a risky situation.  My love for him is too strong and I could not live with myself knowing I gave the man that I love more than anything in this work, HIV.

Sorry if I offended anyone!

Jay
Jay, no one in there right mind would play russian roulette with someone else's life.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #102 on: March 03, 2010, 11:04:47 AM »
it appears that a sizable segment of the poz community isn't represented here, based on my own experience immersed in NYC's poz community.

No dear, it just means that the Stuyvesant Town park bench is a relative bubble.
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Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #103 on: March 03, 2010, 01:44:20 PM »
I had a similar question, but there is just a bit too much caustic malevolence here to get a real answer. No offense to anyone, I just do not wish to become a target by asking a question.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2010, 01:59:46 PM »
I had a similar question, but there is just a bit too much caustic malevolence here to get a real answer. No offense to anyone, I just do not wish to become a target by asking a question.

You're always welcome to ask for advice and mostly it'll be helpful stuff.  You may want to start your own thread for it however as this one is going down in flames.

Offline BSNRNgloria

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2010, 02:17:25 PM »
Being HIV positive is such a big deal. I don't think you value yourself if you KNOW your health would be compromised yet your STILL concedering trying it.

Many people didn't have a choice of receiving HIV but you do.

Ask yourself this:
Do want to wake up everyday of my life fighting for my life EVEN if this relationship ends?

Fighting through pain, sickness, taking pills, going to the doctor often, being discriminated against at time, cancer plaguing your organs, night sweets...

Your boyfriend can't SAVE you from this, neither can you.

I recently lost my mom to these symptoms...would you like to experience ANY of this?

You are NOT an exception to the rules buddie!

Offline sdguyloveslife

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2010, 02:30:47 PM »
I had a similar question, but there is just a bit too much caustic malevolence here to get a real answer. No offense to anyone, I just do not wish to become a target by asking a question.

Why not just try starting your own thread with your own question and steer clear of this thread altogether?  Hope that suggestion helps! 
Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2010, 03:11:07 PM »
You're always welcome to ask for advice and mostly it'll be helpful stuff.  You may want to start your own thread for it however as this one is going down in flames.

True, but it is relevant as I am also in a sero-discordant relationship and have ED problems with condoms - YET this does not mean I would ever attempt to infect the love of my life. One incident where the condom broke as I "came" ended with me cowering in a corner crying and manically begging him to "flush himself out" and let me take him to the hospital so he might get some sort of emergency preventative measure. He merely shrugged it off and said that if it happens, it happens. Since then, I have attempted to get him "into" kink as an alternative to penetrative sex - to no avail. What is someone in THAT situation supposed to do when your partner (the negative one) prefers penetration - watch the relationship go downhill and eventually die because of sexual-frustration?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2010, 03:17:44 PM »
True, but it is relevant as I am also in a sero-discordant relationship and have ED problems with condoms - YET this does not mean I would ever attempt to infect the love of my life. One incident where the condom broke as I "came" ended with me cowering in a corner crying and manically begging him to "flush himself out" and let me take him to the hospital so he might get some sort of emergency preventative measure. He merely shrugged it off and said that if it happens, it happens. Since then, I have attempted to get him "into" kink as an alternative to penetrative sex - to no avail. What is someone in THAT situation supposed to do when your partner (the negative one) prefers penetration - watch the relationship go downhill and eventually die because of sexual-frustration?

It is what it is.  I think someone who shrugs off the potential of becoming positive is taking the disease a little bit too lightly.  I too would react very very poorly if I was having sex with someone who was negative and the condom broke.  The idea is however that not using condoms is creating more risk than is necessary.  I will never again have unprotected sex with someone who is not positive because I would never want to pass the virus to anyone else.  Condoms remain the most effective way to prevent transmission.  I would say having your viral load suppressed and having unprotected sex is somewhat akin to advocating the rhythm method for birth control.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #109 on: March 03, 2010, 03:23:10 PM »
True, but it is relevant as I am also in a sero-discordant relationship and have ED problems with condoms - YET this does not mean I would ever attempt to infect the love of my life. One incident where the condom broke as I "came" ended with me cowering in a corner crying and manically begging him to "flush himself out" and let me take him to the hospital so he might get some sort of emergency preventative measure. He merely shrugged it off and said that if it happens, it happens. Since then, I have attempted to get him "into" kink as an alternative to penetrative sex - to no avail. What is someone in THAT situation supposed to do when your partner (the negative one) prefers penetration - watch the relationship go downhill and eventually die because of sexual-frustration?

keep urself undetectable and free of other std's, n make sure u n he communicate continually about risks an attitudes towards risk. this can't be something he risks but decides to blame u for years down the road. as i said in my first post in this thread, i personally have avoided relationships with neg guys for this very reason.

to be blunt, kink is a poor substitute...everything is a poor substitute for the real deal. if u both feel the relationship is permanent and u can maintain strictly undetectable viral load, fuck his brains out n seed his ass deep unless n until his attitude changes. enjoy it while it lasts, especially if it lasts forever.

the fact is that going raw with consistently undetectable viral load is simply LESS risky than sero-discordant rubber-sex b4 the HAART era. given a hypothetical do or die choice of either, i'd advise my own mother to take a raw consistently undetectable load over taking penetration from someone with a 300,000 viral load using a rubber...not even close.

whatever u both decide, best of luck to u.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #110 on: March 03, 2010, 03:31:37 PM »
I would say having your viral load suppressed and having unprotected sex is somewhat akin to advocating the rhythm method for birth control.
I don't believe it is merely the discussion of barebacking sero-discordantly that is the problem here - just being honest that condoms DON'T work as well as people have been programmed to believe, are susceptible to breakage, more often than not result in a limp-dick for many guys - and that they are NOT "the magic answer".
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #111 on: March 03, 2010, 03:31:57 PM »
the fact is that going raw with consistently undetectable viral load is simply LESS risky than sero-discordant rubber-sex b4 the HAART era.

Actually that's not a fact.  That's your opinion.  Please don't misrepresent your opinion as fact.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #112 on: March 03, 2010, 03:34:12 PM »
the fact is that going raw with consistently undetectable viral load is simply LESS risky than sero-discordant rubber-sex b4 the HAART era.

From what I have heard/read, there is 1 case of an undetectable guy passing the virus to a negative guy. Anyone have more info on that case?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2010, 03:35:18 PM »
Actually that's not a fact.  That's your opinion.  Please don't misrepresent your opinion as fact.

This is the internet - it's ALL just opinions.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2010, 03:35:38 PM »
I don't believe it is merely the discussion of barebacking sero-discordantly that is the problem here - just being honest that condoms DON'T work as well as people have been programmed to believe, are susceptible to breakage, more often than not result in a limp-dick for many guys - and that they are NOT "the magic answer".


It is the issue here though.  The OP wants to know >What We Think< about him barebacking his partner who is positive.  I think it's potentially one of the worst possible decisions he could make if he wants to remain HIV negative.  A condom while not completely removing all risk, does a damn good job of removing most of the risk from the situation.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2010, 03:38:10 PM »
It is the issue here though.  The OP wants to know >What We Think< about him barebacking his partner who is positive.  I think it's potentially one of the worst possible decisions he could make if he wants to remain HIV negative.  A condom while not completely removing all risk, does a damn good job of removing most of the risk from the situation.

so does being consistently undetectable...n it does it better. like i said much earlier, i'll take the Swiss Health Authority over u n ur clique any day.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2010, 03:41:46 PM »
This is the internet - it's ALL just opinions.


wow
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Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2010, 03:52:51 PM »
wow

Sad, but it IS true - kind of a "show me your proof......and any alternate proof to the contrary so I can judge for myself" situation.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Ann

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2010, 03:54:55 PM »
so does being consistently undetectable...n it does it better. like i said much earlier, i'll take the Swiss Health Authority over u n ur clique any day.

The Swiss Study you keep bringing up did NOT look at anal sex, it only looked at vaginal. The  risk of damage to both anal and penile tissue is greater during anal intercourse and until there is a similar study looking at anal, you cannot use the results of the Swiss study as evidence that the risk of transmission dramatically lower in anal as well.
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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2010, 03:56:57 PM »
The Swiss Study you keep bringing up did NOT look at anal sex, it only looked at vaginal. The  risk of damage to both anal and penile tissue is greater during anal intercourse and until there is a similar study looking at anal, you cannot use the results of the Swiss study as evidence that the risk of transmission dramatically lower in anal as well.

Is there possibly a study examining the difference in tissue and transmission differences?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2010, 03:57:22 PM »
Sad, but it IS true - kind of a "show me your proof......and any alternate proof to the contrary so I can judge for myself" situation.

Not all sources have the same validity.  The internet isn't really any different than the real world in that respect, that was my point. 
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2010, 03:59:51 PM »
Not all sources have the same validity.  The internet isn't really any different than the real world in that respect, that was my point. 

TRUE. Alright, how are we determining validity? How popular results are with medical professionals or documented evidence in excess?
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Jeton

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2010, 04:04:19 PM »
The Swiss Study you keep bringing up did NOT look at anal sex, it only looked at vaginal. The  risk of damage to both anal and penile tissue is greater during anal intercourse and until there is a similar study looking at anal, you cannot use the results of the Swiss study as evidence that the risk of transmission dramatically lower in anal as well.

to my knowledge the Swiss study specified sero-discordant heterosexual couples with the poz partner being consistently undetectable, free of other std's, and strictly adherent to HAART...i'm not aware that the statement specified vaginal intercourse only. however, it is needlessly pedantic to assume that homosexual couples and anal intercourse involve different virology from heterosexual couples, only different biophysics. the rectum is certainly more delicate than the vaginal canal, and their blood flow is similar, so one would expect the mathematics of infectivity in that case to be the "1 in 100,000" risk the Swiss described, divided by however much greater the risk of injury to the rectal wall is over the vaginal wall.

it is reasonable to assume rectal tissue is not 100,00 times more likely to sustain injury, or even 100 times more likely...thus the thrust of the Swiss statement remains logically consistent: whatever sexual practice u perform n whatever the gender of ur partner, the lower ur viral load, the less infectious u r, all other factors being equal.

Offline Sebastian1969

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2010, 04:06:16 PM »
Past,
I am like you, boyfriend poz and I am negative.  I feel more comfortable using condoms all of the time with anal sex.  You guys need to do what make you guys feel comfortable.  My boyfriend would be beside himself if I were to become positive from him, especially knowing what we know.  I understand that chances are higher when you are on the receiving end than the giving end, but for us we decided the chance wasn't worth it for either of us.  I do not want to get HIV but more than that he does not want to pass along HIV to me, we care too much about eachother to put the other in that situation.
Keep trying different condoms, not all feel the same and they are thinner, stronger and feel better now than 5 years ago.  Also, as someone mentioned, try a cock ring-they work.  Keep comunication open with your boyfriend and talk to him about it, the brain is a powerful tool and there may be some training involved, but you can train yourselves to be very comfortable with having a condom on and can train your body to not go limp when wearing one.

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2010, 04:13:16 PM »
Is there possibly a study examining the difference in tissue and transmission differences?

I'll have to look and see if there are any studies such as you describe, but it's not rocket science. The lining of the rectum is very, very much thinner than the vagina and therefore is much easier to damage. Damaged tissue, especially if it is torn, gives hiv a direct route into the bloodstream.

The penis is also more prone to damage during anal due to the tightness and lack of natural lube, especially if the foreskin is present. Making sure enough lube is used if you do bareback will help decrease the risk of damage to both top and bottom.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm pointing this fact out about the Swiss Study because I'm anti-anal, I'm not. I'm versatile. ;) I know first-hand that the anus is more prone to damage during intercourse than the vagina.
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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2010, 11:50:01 PM »
I'll have to look and see if there are any studies such as you describe, but it's not rocket science. The lining of the rectum is very, very much thinner than the vagina and therefore is much easier to damage. Damaged tissue, especially if it is torn, gives hiv a direct route into the bloodstream.

The penis is also more prone to damage during anal due to the tightness and lack of natural lube, especially if the foreskin is present. Making sure enough lube is used if you do bareback will help decrease the risk of damage to both top and bottom.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm pointing this fact out about the Swiss Study because I'm anti-anal, I'm not. I'm versatile. ;) I know first-hand that the anus is more prone to damage during intercourse than the vagina.

Thanks for the info..
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline wizardofaz

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #126 on: March 04, 2010, 08:45:45 AM »
I see three pages of posts already, so you've probably got more than enough insight... and it all seems to says "NO, this is WRONG".

I am also in a discordant relationship, but _I_ am the one who is poz.  I also have trouble 'getting it up' long enough to use a condom and/or while using them.

Does that mean I would subject my partner to possibly living with this disease - yes, DISEASE, potentially fatal - for the sake of getting it up and getting off - inside him?

"oops, sorry honey... guess I got too excited.  But you know how much I love you".

Even with an early withdrawal, you are taking far too much of a chance, if you are actually considering this.  All the posts I have read have pointed this out, I do not need to reiterate redundant information.

I would look at two things on a more personal level:

1.  The type of person who would ask this of another, and

2.  The type of person who would consider taking this risk for another person's sexual gratification.

Low self-esteem has always been an issue in my own life, so I know I am not just proffering an opinion on something I have no personal experience with.  If you are willing to even consider taking this risk, for the sake of his climax, or your love, or the relationship, or for an unhealthy attachment to it/him...

...you might want to consider some therapy to address these issues. 

This is NOT a dig or an insult.  Most people raised in the rather twisted moral and social values of our western society could benefit from some counseling and personal, inner work.

I know I did.

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #127 on: March 04, 2010, 09:34:42 AM »
He merely shrugged it off and said that if it happens, it happens. Since then, I have attempted to get him "into" kink as an alternative to penetrative sex - to no avail. What is someone in THAT situation supposed to do when your partner (the negative one) prefers penetration - watch the relationship go downhill and eventually die because of sexual-frustration?

1) There is "cool" but your bf is too cool - it's too casual - he needs to talk to you or an objective outsider about if he really is so ambivalent about seroconverting.

2) Even if he doesn't care much if he seroconverts, obviously this would make you very unhappy so maybe there is a problem in the relationship even if he stays negative.

3)  Nobody ever died of sexual frustration - but you could ruin the relationship if you don't figure out a mutually acceptable sex repertoire for the future.

Seems like you are at a cross roads with this guy, sexually.  You can ignore it but why ignore it.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline KeesRuemke

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #128 on: March 04, 2010, 01:37:25 PM »
The Swiss Statement (it is NOT a study but a statement or an expert opinion with a review of studies) DOES cover anal sex. The studies reviewed were on vaginal sex, but the statement is also based on the absence (at that time) of evidence of transmissions under the conditions they mentioned. The absence of evidence is also about anal sex.
Those conditions are:
* Undetectable VL > 6 months under ART
* Being adherent and under regular care
* Not having an other STD
Read also the accompanying comment on the Swiss Statement:
http://www.saez.ch/pdf_f/2008/2008-05/2008-05-085.PDF

“S’appuyant sur des données épidémiologiques et biologiques, la Commission est parvenue à la conclusion qu’une thérapie antivirale bien menée rend le risque à tel point négligeable qu’aucun cas de ce genre n’a été décrit à ce jour.”


Meanwhile one report of transmission under the Swiss conditions is published:
http://www.intmedpress.com/serveFile.cfm?sUID=8be42e39-7915-4b36-929c-0f1a603e989e
The author of this publication backs the Swiss Statement however, as long it is not claimed the risk is zero under these conditions.

Feel free to find other cases of transmission under the circumstances.

RE: the risk of transmission under without condoms and with a UD VL and transmission with 100% condoms w/o ART, this might be of the same order of a magnitude.
In a comment on an Australian critique by Wilson et al. on the Swiss Statement (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18657710)
Garnett and Gazzard point out the risk is basically the same:
http://www.who.int/hiv/events/artprevention/garnett.pdf

My 2 cents: if you say that unprotected anal sex under the Swiss conditions is dangerous, you have to say that protected anal sex w/o ART is dangerous as well.

Kees
(Netherlands)




Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #129 on: March 04, 2010, 01:56:17 PM »
We did say that protected sex was still a risk, if you read back.  I wouldn't equate them to the same level of risk however.

If the virus never touches you you cannot contract it.  That's what the thin layer of latex does.  It fails if it breaks or slips off.  I've never had one do that when I was using them.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2010, 11:32:10 AM »
1) There is "cool" but your bf is too cool - it's too casual - he needs to talk to you or an objective outsider about if he really is so ambivalent about seroconverting.

2) Even if he doesn't care much if he seroconverts, obviously this would make you very unhappy so maybe there is a problem in the relationship even if he stays negative.

3)  Nobody ever died of sexual frustration - but you could ruin the relationship if you don't figure out a mutually acceptable sex repertoire for the future.

Seems like you are at a cross roads with this guy, sexually.  You can ignore it but why ignore it.


NOPE, wrong again....

We don't really have relationship problems outside of this.. and DO love each other a great deal. To you jaded, cynical types who will swear love isn't real and will feel a need to laugh, have fun with that.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #131 on: March 05, 2010, 11:32:56 AM »
It fails if it breaks or slips off.  I've never had one do that when I was using them.

Again, you are extraordinarily lucky then.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #132 on: March 05, 2010, 11:34:18 AM »
The Swiss Statement (it is NOT a study but a statement or an expert opinion with a review of studies) DOES cover anal sex.
* Undetectable VL > 6 months under ART
* Being adherent and under regular care
* Not having an other STD
Read also the accompanying comment on the Swiss Statement:
http://www.saez.ch/pdf_f/2008/2008-05/2008-05-085.PDF


Thank you for this...
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #133 on: March 05, 2010, 11:36:13 AM »
Seems like you are at a cross roads with this guy, sexually.  You can ignore it but why ignore it.

Not quite, nope.
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline past

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #134 on: March 08, 2010, 02:45:53 PM »
Hi Past:
Sorry you feel the way you do about the discussion in the thread you originated.
Your initial opening post contained these words:

"Any advice?
Anyone in serodiscordant relationships? Would unprotected sex with my bf be an insane decision?"

I looked up the definition of advice:
"recommendation about action: somebody's opinion about what another person should do"

I believe, if you read through the responses to your posts that is what you got - advice (recommendations and opinions)
Now, if there was something else you were seeking then it would be your responsibility to identify that and go from there (i.e. "not looking for advice, just wanted to hear from other people who are okay with not using condoms with a positive, undetectable person", etc.) -- believe me when I say that I am not saying that to be flippant with you.  I really just feel that you got frustrated at the responses and conversation that your initial post generated, but that is what happens when a great number of people are posed a question that specifically asks for advice -- there are a great number of opinions that you will get each either supported or in some cases not supported by facts - but remember that opinion isn't always fact - it is just that, opinion.
If you ask for a advice and get frustrated it is something like asking someone to loan you $5 and when they say no you get upset --  if you get upset you really weren't asking - you were demanding/commanding.  So, if you truly were seeking advice and you get different opinions then don't be frustrated; if you are frustrated then maybe it wasn't actually advice you were seeking, but approval for a decision that you have already made up your mind about (neither wrong with either, but different results in regards to how you will feel after you've made a post and people have given input.)   
All the best


I got a few responses that actually gave advice, and a few that gave no advice but did give opinions... and I said thank you for that. None really helped me too much but I still was appreciative of those people's time. However, in response to your confusion, I was frustrated because the majority of all posts were neither advice or opinion. Instead I got plenty of judgemental assumptions or responses like "oh your boyfriend doesn't love you!"

This became an argument (not debate or discussion) about lube, condoms, why my boyfriend doesn't love me, how stupid I must be and everything else except what I had asked about in the first place (experience with serodiscordant relationships or with undetectability and unprotected sex).
This problem I am having is incredibly serious and stressful for me, yet so many didn't even see that and instead made this thread a competition to be "right" and look smarter than or bash the poster before them. Instead of advice I saw name-calling and self-proclaimed-HIV-experts saying why this or that person is SO wrong. Since when was this about being mr. right or wrong?
This whole thing sucked. Don't even know why I just logged back in.
 ???

Offline Joe K

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2010, 03:18:05 PM »
Hey Past,

I've been in a sero-discordant relationship and I can empathize with the concerns that you have. Unfortunately, I can't suggest what you might do, only what my partner and I decided to do. We always used condoms for two reasons. So that he did not become infected and I minimized the possibility of my infecting him. For us, it came down to our shared love and respect for each other and it was the choice that we made, together, that we believed to be best for us. If I were to offer you any advice, it would involve staying true to yourself and that should include protecting yourself from HIV.

Personally, I could not be in a relationship with anyone who would suggest, that I risk my life, over sex. I empathize with the issue of condoms, but we are talking about a life here, yours. If he were my partner, I would encourage him to explore different ways to remain hard, using a condom and I would never accept his risking my health, just to seek his own sexual gratification. That is just not something that you do, to someone that you love. Again, that's me, but I think there are many options you can explore, that do not include risking your health.

I cannot help but think, based on what you describe, on how the only proposed solution to the condom issue, is not to use them, as against conditioning so use becomes second nature. It is not love to ever ask your lover to risk their life, needlessly. I'm not sure what it is part of, but that is not love, no matter how you might define it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:20:39 PM by killfoile »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2010, 03:50:49 PM »

I got a few responses that actually gave advice, and a few that gave no advice but did give opinions... and I said thank you for that. None really helped me too much but I still was appreciative of those people's time. However, in response to your confusion, I was frustrated because the majority of all posts were neither advice or opinion. Instead I got plenty of judgemental assumptions or responses like "oh your boyfriend doesn't love you!"

   To be honest some of those "oh your boyfriend doesn't love you" responses are the same exact thing I would tell my daughter if her man was to put her health at risk, be it in his speeding car or sex without condoms.  Hell no I don't take into consideration all the nice things he does for her, how he looks lovingly in her eyes when they kiss, how he buys her favorite chocolate on Fridays...  I don't see none of that, just like none of us see what endears you to the man who wants to engage in unprotected sex, only you know of that. 

   Family, friends, and outsiders never know all the dynamics of one's relationship, so it always amazes me how disappointed people are in the advice they get concerning their own relationship.... which of course was advice they asked for.

   So now the decision is in your hands, we've given our asked for unwanted advice on the matter.

    Good luck!

 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline xman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #137 on: March 08, 2010, 05:28:36 PM »
From my personal point of view this thread has a lot of missinterpretations. Treatment as prevention is actually a hot point in the HIV research field. In fact there's a big trial ongoing which should give some answers this summer and it is focussed exactly on serodiscordant heterosexual copies in which 1 of the partners is positive. Facts demonstrates so far that HAART is very effective in reducing HIV transmission and the scientific community is moving foward to make treatment as prevention a widely accepted possibility to stop or to dramatically reduce the spread of HIV.
That condoms aren't effective enough to stop the disease is obvious since HIV is still around us. We can judge and condemn the lack of condom use but the fact remains that the vast majority of people are denying condoms. HAART has the chance to contribute in HIV prevention very well. It's estimated that if all HIV infected people would be put on HAART the rate of new infections would decrease by 80%. This statement takes in account also the HAART alone situations in which no condom is used.
In the following link an interesting statement of Joel Gallant on this issue:
http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/q_a/patient/hiv_transmission_and_prevention/ud_v_condom.html?contentInstanceId=512450&siteId=7151
sign the petition launched by the aids policy project addressed to the nih aimed to increase the money needed to find the cure:

http://www.aidspolicyproject.org/petition_for_the_nih

we can make a difference and we need to fight. please support them! it doesn't cost you anything. they need it now more than ever!

Offline Moffie65

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #138 on: March 09, 2010, 12:02:07 PM »
Past,

I am one that stated that your boyfriend doesn't love you if he wants or insists on sex without a condom. 

I stand by that because if he was placing a six bullet gun into your vagina/anus, and it only had five bullets in it; the same thing could be stated. 

I stand by my assertion that he is more horny than in love, kick his ass to the curb, before he gives you a sentence of living with HIV/AIDS for the rest of your natural life.  On the other hand, if you are over 70 years of age, enjoy!
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Online Jeff G

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #139 on: March 09, 2010, 12:26:16 PM »
Past
I think someone suggested here that maybe it would be a good idea if your bf joined the conversation . I think that would be an excellent idea . I'm not saying this so we can beat up on him although I'm quite confident it would be an intense exchange.... but after all your health and well being are at stake so it should be .

Offline xman

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #140 on: March 09, 2010, 05:25:21 PM »
I stand by that because if he was placing a six bullet gun into your vagina/anus, and it only had five bullets in it; the same thing could be stated.

So my penis is like a Magnum 44 or a rocket launcher? LOL

Although HIV disease is a serious condition I don't agree with your statement. I think, and most specialists would agree, that making those comparisons are quite counterproductive and simply wrong. If we talk about HIV in the developed world (at least for those civil and democratic nations where therapy is even partially free), the infection is no more considered a death sentence.

If we continue to put HIV on the same level of death or arms than all the efforts to give hope and even a perspective to all of us infected would be for nothing, not to mention the criminalization and stigma which continues to spread which is actually more dangerous than the virus itself.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 02:08:38 PM by xman »
sign the petition launched by the aids policy project addressed to the nih aimed to increase the money needed to find the cure:

http://www.aidspolicyproject.org/petition_for_the_nih

we can make a difference and we need to fight. please support them! it doesn't cost you anything. they need it now more than ever!

Offline blackwingbear

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2010, 05:50:10 PM »
So my penis is like a Magnum 44 or a rocket launcher? LOL

Although HIV disease is a serious condition I don't agree with your statement. I think, and most specialists would agree, that making those comparisons are quite counterproductive and simply wrong. If we talk about HIV in the developed world (at least for those civil and democratic nations where therapy is even partially free), the infection is no more considered a death sentence.

If we continue to put HIV on the same level of death or armor than all the efforts to give hope and even a perspective to all of us infected would be for nothing, not to mention the criminalization and stigma which continues to spread which is actually more dangerous than the virus itself.


But saying that isn't politically-correct and doesn't promote an agenda! *snicker*
It's all a sham. Politics is a big game, same as the media - and same as religion. The point is to distract & control. If we're looking at what they tell us is the "big issue", we're not looking at what they are doing. In time, there will be different causes and different minorities to pick-on. All in the name of keeping the system going, and the people distracted.

Offline Boze

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Re: BF poz, he wants unprotected sex ..? any insight please!
« Reply #142 on: May 09, 2010, 07:46:18 AM »
I've been researching this topic of late and think it's worth adding the following snippet. The Australian response to the Swiss statement said the following in their discussion:

“under our assumptions, the effectiveness of treatment in reducing the risk of
HIV transmission per sexual act was about the same as has been reported for condoms.

Although we agree that effective antiretroviral treatment which leads to undetectable viral load is likely to have a substantial effect on reducing infectiousness, our analyses suggest that it should not replace condoms.”

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/C144FC4F-2707-4D1F-87DE-68B35D4EA1D0.asp

So while disagreeing with the Swiss (from a public policy perspective I imagine) they actually said that someone on therapy with UD VL has the same risk of transmission as someone who is NOT on therapy while wearing a condom.
Therefore if you want to reduce ALL possible risk - ARV + condom is the route.  But my takeaway was still that two individuals who satisfy Swiss requirements ( monogamy/adherence/lack of STDs) can engage in condom-less vaginal-oral intercourse with virtually* no risk.

* - equal to condom use without therapy
==========
Aug08 - Seroconversion
Mar10 - Diagnosis; cd4 690 - VL 19,000
Apr10 - cd4 600
May10 - VL 4,500
Jun10 - started Atripla ; VL 113
Jul 10 - UD vl, CD4 590
Aug 10 - UD, CD4 810, 52%
Nov 10 - UD, CD4 980

 


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