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Author Topic: BBC host admits to mercy killing  (Read 10826 times)

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Offline J.R.E.

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  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
BBC host admits to mercy killing
« on: February 16, 2010, 08:15:24 PM »
BBC host admits to mercy killing :


Just caught this on Cnn : (video of admission at bottom)

http://rawstory.com/2010/02/bbc-host-admits-killing-lover/


Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of DEC 9th, 2013,  t-cells are at 437 Viral load  <40 .

 Current % is at 16% (L)

  
 62 years young.

Offline Basquo

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 09:37:56 PM »
Difficult as it was to read the story, the video was even worse. As in moving, and...shit, a veterinarian could slip something into an IV that would end it without a trace, but this shows true love. Thank God that fewer people are put in this position today, and if I were on an American jury I would make sure that every other angry man knew exactly what the situation was.

Online tednlou2

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 12:44:11 AM »
I saw this on MSNBC today.  They said he didn't say when this took place.  This probably happens more than we think.  Since his partner was suppose to be terminally ill, I'm sure they didn't do an autopsy. 

Offline leatherman

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 01:21:48 AM »
"At the moment all we have is Ray's word there was a pact and it wasn't clear from his description whether his lover even wanted to be killed or asked to be," Dr. Peter Saunders said.
frankly I disagree with some of the words in this piece. I would suggest that the words "murder" and "kill" are the incorrect words to use. how can you "kill" someone who shortly will die of other causes? It's not like a person with a terminal (hello? "terminal") illness at that point or even someone at 98 is going to miraculously recover and live another 5 yrs or even 1 yr with no pains or problems.

The experience of going to the vet for, and even assisting several times in, the euthanasia of 7 cocker spaniels was what gave me the strength, courage and knowledge to halt medical procedures and take two partners back home, with hospice care, to pass away. Sometimes you just can't stop Death no matter how hard you try or how much you want to. It's the consequence of living.

Thank God that fewer people are put in this position today
well not as many from AIDS deaths nowadays; but hundreds of people are in this very same postion everyday. literally everyone that takes a loved one home from a hospital - with hospice care - has already resigned themselves to the slow exaggerated death of their loved one - unlike the quick painless passing away by euthanasia of a pet. Every one of those caregivers is left within the confines of their own homes to struggle with the issues of how much meds to give their loved one to ease the pain while their loved one slowly and inevitably dies of starvation and dehydration. It's very traumatic for the dying person and the caregiver. Many of those dying people remain conscious until the bitter end. Often they beg for someone to hasten the inevitable end instead of "forcing" them to endure such suffering.

It's a shame that all those religious folk have been so scared of going to heaven, that they've put this stigma upon death. Now we can not only not rationally discuss it (it wasn't clear from his description whether his lover even wanted to be killed. Damn Dr Peter! The dude was almost dead of AIDS at that point anyway, how could he be "killed"?) nor rationally do anything about it (remember poor Dr. Kevorkian?)

If only those crazy people at the town hall meetings in America this past summer had realized that their notion of a "death panel" was nothing more than discussing with Granny whether she might want to go peacefully with some measure of dignity instead of wasting away for 3 months in a filthy nursing home before finally dying after days of wheezy, painful breathing while unconscious.

As you can see this is a subject that touches close to me. I struggled with issues that no one should have to face in such a troubled time as losing one's partner. I would say that life and death was in my hand, but that isn't true at all. At that time, someone's life is already gone and the question of "killing" shouldn't even enter the picture. the only questions there should be are how much a human should have to suffer and what date to put on the headstone.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Cliff

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 03:17:02 AM »
He came across as a bit mental during a BBC interview.  Or maybe eccentric.  A thin line.

Why talk about something so caring and then turn insensitive by calling the guy his bit on the side?  Why do it without the consent of the guy's family or even his friends?  There were probably good reasons but it does beg the question.  I honestly don't know how I would feel if my sister's fuck buddy suffocated her without me or my folks having a say.

And why smother him?  Isn't there a more humane way of doing such things?

And I couldn't tell from his interview whether he actually had expressed consent to kill his partner, er bit on the side.  The consent sounded a bit vague and informal, but it was a long, long time ago.

He wraps up by saying it was no body's business and a private act.  True; except he made it public and now the police must act.

It was all a bit too weird for us.  The law needs to be changed, just not sure this is gonna do it.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 05:14:37 AM »
Why do it without the consent of the guy's family or even his friends?  There were probably good reasons but it does beg the question.  I honestly don't know how I would feel if my sister's fuck buddy suffocated her without me or my folks having a say.

Because involving the family means other people have to deal with their fear of death, despite the inevitable looming.  In the US for sure people's families cling to life a lot longer than they themselves wish to continue.  I agree in ethic with the idea of mercy killing, but nobody wants to see their son/brother/father die and so then they make them suffer with the disease.

This guy never should have said anything though, especially not on public television.  I'm sure in his mind he thought it was so long ago that it didn't matter, but I can only imagine how bad this is going to get for him.  I also agree that suffocation is not exactly the most humane way to go about it, but if he wasn't a medical professional I mean what are your options in this department?

It's a sad story, but then again so was absolutely every case that Kevorkian was dealing with (despite what the family members of some of the people involved have said) and he still went to prison.

I hope this encourages everyone to write a living will and express your wishes very clearly about if something were to happen to you what you would want done.  It takes an extreme burden off of your friends, family, and loved ones.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 08:59:19 AM »
I'm all for euthanasia but he should have kept his mouth shut.

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 10:11:23 AM »
With a pillow...wow.. that took a lot of balls.  I can understand his need to vent and go public. Probably it haunts him in some way or another, the same way my experience with the subject does with me...even after almost 17 years.

You can have a living will drawn, but it's up to the professionals to act upon, and I've seen many times how they backedout at the last minute, leaving everyone bearing witness to nature's course.




Offline Grasshopper

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 11:49:56 AM »
Seems he got arrested.....sad....probably should have kept his mouth shut.

(thanks heavens my deceased ex was cremated)


Offline Alain

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 11:55:34 AM »
I'm all for euthanasia but he should have kept his mouth shut.

Agreed.

Offline gummage

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 01:26:40 PM »
Personally I believe that this man should be taken to court, convicted and spend a long sentence in prison. The reason I believe this is that there was no verbal or written request from the patient involved to his family saying that this 'death' was requested - only the BBC presenters word. Sorry but there is no evidence of what he says as being true. This man was not 'helped' to die - but killed with intent. Surely the man invoilved could have taken his lown ife whilst in better health, so why wait until he was virtually dead ? Also the presenter requested time alone with the patient and therefore it was not a spontaneous act - MURDER is still murder.
I am sure others will disagree, but we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 02:34:44 PM »
I've met Ray Gosling many times in when he worked in Manchester years ago and he's always liked the sound of his own voice. I have serious doubts any of this is true, the story has changed several times and other people who know him have voiced similar concerns http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1251603/Is-BBC-film-maker-Ray-Goslings-story-seems.html.

I also don't really understand his insistence that his friend was dying of AIDS and in pain, when nobody has ever actually died of AIDS (you generally die from pneumonia).  I have been hospitalised with full blown AIDS (CD4 80 VL Millions) + Pneumocystis jiroveci (carinii) pneumonia and whilst being distressing it isn't painful.

I'm pretty certain he's lying for a bit of attention, none of it really makes any sense?

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 03:03:30 PM »


  I bet the doctor that was at the hospital was shitting his pants when he saw this aired.  I am all for euthanasia with some kind of legal documentation saying the party doesn't mind being pillowed to death!
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline leatherman

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 03:34:12 PM »
I also don't really understand his insistence that his friend was dying of AIDS and in pain, when nobody has ever actually died of AIDS (you generally die from pneumonia).  I have been hospitalised with full blown AIDS (CD4 80 VL Millions) + Pneumocystis jiroveci (carinii) pneumonia and whilst being distressing it isn't painful.
splitting hairs there a little bit, aren't you? ??? (Or are you a denialist? we've had quite a bit of them around lately. ::) ) Even though it may be PCP or another disease that actually kills you, AIDS is usually listed as a subsidiary cause on the death certificate since it's the HIV that destroyed your immune system enough for the other disease to have such a drastic effect. I have two death certificates in my possesion from my late partners where AIDS is listed as a cause of death. I don't have the death certificates from several dozens of friends who have died from "AIDS". I myself nearly died from PCP in 96 and thought it was quite painful and distressing. It was just as painful and distressing two yrs later when "regular" pneumonia nearly killed me (as it does for thousands a people a year)

This man was not 'helped' to die - but killed with intent.
most nations do not allow any legal way to be "helped to die" even when you are terminally ill and the grave is only days away. You are only allowed to "suffer" slowly until your body finally gives up. A trip to most any nursing home today will turn up hundreds of examples of the elderly suffering this way, who will be interred by the middle of next week. That's just how life is - everyone dies. Unfortunately, death, the way it's handled without euthanasia, is usually fairly nasty and not at all like falling asleep and never waking up.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2010, 04:14:05 PM »
You could always move to Oregon.

http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/index.shtml

On October 27, 1997 Oregon enacted the Death with Dignity Act which allows terminally-ill Oregonians to end their lives through the voluntary self-administration of lethal medications, expressly prescribed by a physician for that purpose.

Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2010, 04:25:14 PM »
splitting hairs there a little bit, aren't you? ??? (Or are you a denialist? we've had quite a bit of them around lately. ::) ) Even though it may be PCP or another disease that actually kills you, AIDS is usually listed as a subsidiary cause on the death certificate since it's the HIV that destroyed your immune system enough for the other disease to have such a drastic effect. I have two death certificates in my possesion from my late partners where AIDS is listed as a cause of death. I don't have the death certificates from several dozens of friends who have died from "AIDS". I myself nearly died from PCP in 96 and thought it was quite painful and distressing. It was just as painful and distressing two yrs later when "regular" pneumonia nearly killed me (as it does for thousands a people a year)
most nations do not allow any legal way to be "helped to die" even when you are terminally ill and the grave is only days away. You are only allowed to "suffer" slowly until your body finally gives up. A trip to most any nursing home today will turn up hundreds of examples of the elderly suffering this way, who will be interred by the middle of next week. That's just how life is - everyone dies. Unfortunately, death, the way it's handled without euthanasia, is usually fairly nasty and not at all like falling asleep and never waking up.

Not a denialist in any way, I just didn't have any pain from PCP, the rigors were pretty frightening and the hopeless nurse who made 30 attempts to get an arterial blood gas sample from my wrist really hurt, but as soon as i was put on IV Septrin/Bactrim + Oyxgen and Prednisalone I started to recover pretty rapidly (still stuck in hospital for eight days though).
It was actually my HIV consultant that said nobody had ever died of HIV/AIDS, but i suppose that's only in the same way you don't die of alcoholism but sclerosis of the liver instead.
Back to my original point though Ray is a real Walter Mitty, I doubt it ever happened.  

Offline leatherman

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2010, 05:01:39 PM »
You could always move to Oregon.
or the state of Washington!
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2008/11/04/washington-voters-approve-death-dignity-act/

but I just moved back down south and those states are too far north for me. ;) Although being here in the bible belt, you know it'll be long after I'm gone that those kinds of laws are on the books here. ::)

Not a denialist in any way,
It was actually my HIV consultant that said nobody had ever died of HIV/AIDS

an arterial blood gas sample from my wrist
glad to hear that! It was just the way you said that no one has died from AIDS. That on it's face is a pretty odd sounding statement when it is only because of having the HIV virus (reaching the stage of being defined as AIDS) that thousands and thousands have died in the last three decades.  ;)

an arterial blood gas sample from my wrist
Ouch! I remember those sticks well. ;) Glad to hear that you were so much luckier than many and recovered, much less recovered so well. ;D
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline gummage

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2010, 05:21:52 PM »
I too was in the hospital with PCP (cd4 of 20, viral load off the scale) and I have to admit that whilst the experience was not pleasant, I was not in any pain with any illness. (actually it was quite funny at first as they isolated me thinking I had bird flu !!!). I have never seen or heard of anyone dying painfully of AIDS - other related conditions probably.
The gut commited murder and should go to prison OR elaborate on his story

Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2010, 07:51:02 PM »
Kinda the point I was trying to make really, the only fatal illness with any direct relation to AIDS is PCP, which from my experience isn't painful (I know that Kaposi's sarcoma can be painful but the pain was generally controlled well by palliative medicine and now the disease is now controlled well with HAART}.

The guy I think I got HIV from (pretty much has to be him, I've had such a boring sex life that I've never had crabs or any STD) died of liver cancer a couple of years ago. I'm pretty sure it wasn't  related to his HIV. He didn't die a totally painless death but his doctors managed it well and he never seemed to be in any significant pain. If I talk about him to his friends now it's just accepted that he died from cancer, he just happened to be HIV+.

I know other conditions you suffer from are often listed on a death certificate but the primary cause of your demise will be listed first (If a diabetic got run over by a bus it would be listed as Auto-mobile Accident and the diabetes would be noted).

I also have genetic Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy It would be bizarre to list HIV as a cause of death if I go to bed tonight and don't wake up (as my Dad did) as a complicating factor in my death.

If Ray did smother somebody with PCP then he should be gaoled for it. To be honest though I think It's all a load of bollocks. Ray wasn't a catch even in the 1980's when this is purported to have happened and his then boyfriend Bryn was always with him and would have killed him if he'd been shagging about  ;)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 07:55:53 PM by Andy99 »

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2010, 10:31:24 PM »
the only fatal illness with any direct relation to AIDS is PCP

Sorry, that is not correct. For example, I had a friend die of cryptosporidiosis. I'm sure there are other AIDS related deaths, suicide for instance.

Offline leatherman

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2010, 10:44:34 PM »
Sorry, that is not correct. For example, I had a friend die of cryptosporidiosis. I'm sure there are other AIDS related deaths, suicide for instance.
Jim (my second later partner) died of non-hodgkins lymphoma (an hiv-related version of cancer) not two yrs ago in may 08 (he was only just showing symptoms this month 2 yrs ago and died 69 days after entering the hospital on mar 1).

don't forget toxoplasmosis or CMV either (http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=kb-05-03-03)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2010, 11:28:51 PM »
Progressive Multifocal Leukoencephalopathy will fuck you up too.

MtD

Offline edfu

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2010, 02:19:55 AM »
This is a matter of correct scientific/medical semantics and a great deal of political correctness.  It is true that HIV or AIDS does not kill the human being directly; HIV kills only CD4 cells, thereby destroying the person's immunity, but by itself, destroying immunity does not cause the death.  The death is caused by an opportunistic infection that the person's destroyed immunity cannot control.

In the early days of the epidemic it became standard usage (except, perhaps, in official coroners' reports, etc.) to give the cause of death, when it was revealed at all, as "AIDS-related complications."  It was believed that this usage more accurately and truthfully reflected the reality.  These "complications" were all of the various opportunistic infections that a person with a normally functioning immune system could and would fight off and were often, in the 1980s, before HIV testing, the first sign of HIV infection.  Thus, death from advanced cryptosporidiosis and toxoplasmosis and PCP was generally not given as the specific cause; rather, it was "AIDS-related complications."

Today, after the advent of testing and HAART, these "classic" OI's are far less likely to be instrumental in causing death.  Instead, as we all know, more deaths are resulting from cancers (liver, lung, anal) and other malignancies and lymphomas.  Thus, today, it has become standard usage to give the cancer or whatever as the cause of death, obviating the necessity of even mentioning AIDS or HIV.  In these cases it is perhaps accurate to give the malignancy as the specific cause of death (the connection to HIV being assumed to be conjecture). 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2010, 02:31:48 AM »
and a great deal of political correctness. 

Oy.  ::)

MtD

Offline Moffie65

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2010, 10:47:22 AM »
I've met Ray Gosling many times in when he worked in Manchester years ago and he's always liked the sound of his own voice. .............................  I have been hospitalised with full blown AIDS (CD4 80 VL Millions) + Pneumocystis jiroveci (carinii) pneumonia and whilst being distressing it isn't painful.

I don't know where you came from, or who you are, but it seems that the accuser in this post is you, and it also seems you like the looks of your own words on a screen.  Or don't acuse if you are guilty of the same thing.

 I've had PCP twice, and you are an outright liar to claim that it isn't painful, or to imply that it is a walk in the park.  Sorry dude, you're out of line on an HIV/AIDS support site, and I take all your posts as outright, Texas sized BULLSHIT!
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline BT65

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2010, 05:21:19 PM »
I've had such a boring sex life that I've never had crabs or any STD)

You just skipped those and went right for the big one, aye?
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2010, 06:03:24 PM »
You just skipped those and went right for the big one, aye?

LMAO I did the same thing Betty, but with a side order of CMV.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2010, 08:20:10 PM »
I have never seen or heard of anyone dying painfully of AIDS

This is either a sad joke or you've not been around the block enough times.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2010, 09:02:38 PM »
This is either a sad joke or you've not been around the block enough times.

Doublepluss agreement here, Miss P.

Let us hope that the first ghastly AIDS death gummage experiences is not his own.

MtD


Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2010, 12:40:34 PM »
I don't know where you came from, or who you are, but it seems that the accuser in this post is you, and it also seems you like the looks of your own words on a screen.  Or don't acuse if you are guilty of the same thing.

 I've had PCP twice, and you are an outright liar to claim that it isn't painful, or to imply that it is a walk in the park.  Sorry dude, you're out of line on an HIV/AIDS support site, and I take all your posts as outright, Texas sized BULLSHIT!

All I can recount are my own experiences. I was rushed to hospital by ambulance unable to breathe with an oxygen saturation of 64%  having regular attacks of the rigors. I was admitted to the intensive care ward given a broad spectrum of IV antibiotics, but continued to have low oxygen saturation and still suffering great difficulty breathing.

The next day I was seen by a chest consultant who had examined the x-ray taken the previous night who said that he suspected it was PCP (at this time I wasn't even aware I was HIV+, never mind that it was full blown AIDS), I was then given an MRI scan and had my sputum tested. This confirmed the PCP diagnosis and as I have previously said I was treated with IV Septrin/Bactrim, Predisalone and kept on oxygen. I was discharged after eight days but had to keep taking eight Septrin Forte a day for two months. I was honestly never in any pain (or given any painkillers)

After two years of treatment on Atripla my VL is undetectable and CD4 is just over 400, my HIV consultant insists I still take one Septrin Forte daily and has said that I will remain on them for the foreseeable future (which I know is unusual having read the advice given by the experts on The Body). I presume he just doesn't want me to have a recurrence.

It's not like I have a high pain threshold either, I was in excruciating pain from the high dose Statins I was given to counter act the high cholesterol I got from Atripla and had to switch to 20mg Atorvastatin plus 10mg Ezetimibe (Ezetrol).

I'm very sorry that your episodes of PCP were so painful and different to my one episode (and apparently gummage's if you read back a few posts). I suppose an illnesses can effect people in very different ways or did your treatment differ from mine somehow?

« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 01:38:07 PM by Andy99 »

Offline Ann

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2010, 06:23:56 PM »

All I can recount are my own experiences. I was rushed to hospital by ambulance unable to breathe with an oxygen saturation of 64%  having regular attacks of the rigors. I was admitted to the intensive care ward given a broad spectrum of IV antibiotics, but continued to have low oxygen saturation and still suffering great difficulty breathing.


Wow! They should do a study on you. Everyone I've ever known who couldn't breathe - including myself - experienced a great deal of pain when they COULD NOT BREATHE. You must be something special, hence why I suggested a study.
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Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2010, 08:18:41 PM »
I too was in the hospital with PCP (cd4 of 20, viral load off the scale) and I have to admit that whilst the experience was not pleasant, I was not in any pain with any illness. (actually it was quite funny at first as they isolated me thinking I had bird flu !!!). I have never seen or heard of anyone dying painfully of AIDS - other related conditions probably.

This account by gummage seems to tally with mine, whilst I understand that your experience is different to mine and gummage's, I do not dispute that for you it was painful. It could be caused by different medication regimens? I was given 8000mg of Septrin/Bactrin + eight Prednisolone  (steroids) a day for twelve weeks. I do not know if the treatment is the same where you live?

It could also be derived by your pain versus discomfort threshold? For me PCP was uncomfortable and distressing but not painful (or maybe it's the semantics between distress and pain?, I'd assume from the grammar that gummage is also from the UK?).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 08:36:14 PM by Andy99 »

Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2010, 08:50:44 PM »
You just skipped those and went right for the big one, aye?

My HIV consultant said something very similar when I first saw him  ;D I'm just really unlucky!

My last word on this after the abuse is that I've suffered is that HIV is only a Chronic Condition. if treated properly these days, not a death sentence. If your experience differs from mine get on with your life
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 08:24:45 AM by Andy99 »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2010, 09:34:47 PM »
My last word on this after the abuse is that I've suffered is that HIV is only a Chronic Condition. if treated properly these days, not a death sentence. If your experience differs from mine get on with your life

I suspect that the members of this forum who died from AIDS in the last few years would have disagreed with you.

If they weren't dead that is.

MtD

Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2010, 03:50:49 AM »
I think we've addressed this one already, nobody has ever died of AIDS or HIV.

They may have died of AIDS-related conditions, but unless the shock of diagnosis killed them it would not be the primary cause of death (even then it would probably be a heart attack).

Out of the four recent bereavements I've experienced none of them had HIV, in fact all of my friends with HIV seem to be in much better health than those who aren't since the advent of HAART because of the extra monitoring they receive.

Offline BT65

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2010, 07:32:23 AM »
I think we've addressed this one already, nobody has ever died of AIDS or HIV.

They may have died of AIDS-related conditions, but unless the shock of diagnosis killed them it would not be the primary cause of death (even then it would probably be a heart attack).

Out of the four recent bereavements I've experienced none of them had HIV, in fact all of my friends with HIV seem to be in much better health than those who aren't since the advent of HAART because of the extra monitoring they receive.

Of all the people I've known who had Aids and passed, every single death could be contributed to having Aids.   If all your friends with Aids are healthier than people you know without Aids, then bully for you.  As a long term survivor, diagnosed with HIV in 1989, Aids in 1994, I can tell you I've had plenty of health trouble because of this damn virus.  And some of the problems cannot be reversed i.e. neuropathy, lipoatrophy, a bone disease called avascular necrosis that can be contributed to long-term infection, early onset of osteoporosis etc.   While being HIV+ may be a walk in the park for you, don't even think about speaking for everyone also having HIV.  Your experience is not my experience.
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Offline komnaes

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2010, 08:43:07 AM »
They may have died of AIDS-related conditions, .. it would not be the primary cause of death.

So next time someone killed himself by jumping off a building, it should not be reported as a suicide but a variety of actual primary causes like skull fracture, internal bleeding, etc?
Aug 07 Diagnosed
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Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
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Offline Grasshopper

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2010, 11:30:13 AM »
I think we've addressed this one already, nobody has ever died of AIDS or HIV.

They may have died of AIDS-related conditions, but unless the shock of diagnosis killed them it would not be the primary cause of death (even then it would probably be a heart attack).

Out of the four recent bereavements I've experienced none of them had HIV, in fact all of my friends with HIV seem to be in much better health than those who aren't since the advent of HAART because of the extra monitoring they receive.

This is what the folks behind aidsmeds.com say:

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/WhatIsAIDS_4994.shtml

"You have heard it said that someone "died of AIDS." This is not entirely accurate, since it is the opportunistic infections that cause death.AIDS is the condition that lets the OIs take hold."
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 11:32:08 AM by Grasshopper »

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2010, 11:38:02 AM »
I always thought they put....

Primary Infection: HIV/AIDS

Secondary Infection:  Whatever actually killed them.

The Aids is what allowed the second thing to become lethal.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2010, 11:50:08 AM »
My friends death certificate, in cause of death it states "AIDS related illnesses" and lists the OI. It doesn't say they died of AIDS as Andy indicated.

Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2010, 04:11:06 PM »
So next time someone killed himself by jumping off a building, it should not be reported as a suicide but a variety of actual primary causes like skull fracture, internal bleeding, etc?

I think you are confusing "Manner Of Death" (i.e. Suicide, Murder, Death By Misadventure) with "Cause Of Death", somebody who leaps from a tall building would generally have a Post Mortem and the injury's which caused the death would be listed.

To list AIDS as the Primary Cause Of Death would be akin to listing Diabetes, this should never happen. The primary cause of death for diabetics is CVD (cardiovascular disease), which is always put on the death certificate. 

Offline bocker3

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2010, 08:38:22 PM »
Is it just me, or does there seem to be a sudden increase in "New" members who come in here with no other desire than to argue (minutiae or otherwise) with the longer term members?

I'll never understand why someone would wish to join a support group and then instantly start up with arguments.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

My add to this -- while it may be technically true that PCP is what may kill -- without the HIV, there would be no PCP, so how your logic can leap to "no one has ever died of AIDS or HIV" is hard to grasp.
No HIV -- no PCP -- no death.  Guess what -- it STARTS with the HIV, trace the causal route back to the beginning and what do you see -- oh, right -- HIV.

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Offline mecch

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2010, 09:22:01 PM »
Sometimes new members are opinionated as a way to make some space for themselves in the community. 
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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2010, 09:37:00 PM »
I just assume it means they were raised in a barn.
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Offline griezzel

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2010, 10:33:12 PM »
So next time someone killed himself by jumping off a building, it should not be reported as a suicide but a variety of actual primary causes like skull fracture, internal bleeding, etc?
I've heard it said it's not the fall (or jump) that kills you but the sudden stop at the bottom.
 ;)

Interesting thread that has gone astray a bit from the topic, which is one I have much interest in. I sort of expected (or hoped) to find a forum on the topic (death with dignity) rather than the occasional stray thread. Having just arrived here I have quite a bit of reading ahead of me.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 10:40:04 PM by griezzel »

Offline Andy99

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2010, 08:55:52 AM »
Is it just me, or does there seem to be a sudden increase in "New" members who come in here with no other desire than to argue (minutiae or otherwise) with the longer term members?

I'll never understand why someone would wish to join a support group and then instantly start up with arguments.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

My add to this -- while it may be technically true that PCP is what may kill -- without the HIV, there would be no PCP, so how your logic can leap to "no one has ever died of AIDS or HIV" is hard to grasp.
No HIV -- no PCP -- no death.  Guess what -- it STARTS with the HIV, trace the causal route back to the beginning and what do you see -- oh, right -- HIV.

Mike

People having Chemotherapy also develop PCP, your argument would lead the cause of death to be listed as Chemotherapy (no chemo = no PCP) which I'm pretty certain wouldn't happen.

I'm aware many people with AIDS died of PCP in the early days (needlessly as Septrin/Bactrim and Prednisalone have been around since the 1960's, but nobody knew that was what worked?), but the illness isn't unique to people with AIDS.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 09:15:17 AM by Andy99 »

Offline bocker3

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2010, 11:06:57 AM »
People having Chemotherapy also develop PCP, your argument would lead the cause of death to be listed as Chemotherapy (no chemo = no PCP) which I'm pretty certain wouldn't happen.

Actually, I'd say that the cancer which resulted in the need for the Chemotherapy would be the culprit -- not the Chemo itself.  Again -- no cancer, no chemo, no PCP, no death.

Mike
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Offline leatherman

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2010, 12:12:19 PM »
quite simply Andy, untreated HIV leads to AIDS leads to death nearly 100% of the time.
(as it was in 1985 and even so today, untreated HIV is still the terminal disease it always has been, and leads to death within approx 18 months of an AIDS diagnosis)

Try to rationalize the relationship away by whatever means you want to ease your own fears of having HIV; but there are thousands and thousands of people (especially close to my heart, a huge part of the generation of 40-60 yr old gay men in America) who are gone, dead, because they had AIDS. Without being infected with HIV which developed into AIDS, they would still be here today. All those people died of specific illnesses, but the general cause was still AIDS.

They may have died of AIDS-related conditions,
You simply cannot say that people don't die from AIDS; but "AIDS-related conditions". That's just silly semantics trying to deny the obvious correlation inherent in the disease and the deaths.

It's seem especially wrong to say that people don't die from AIDS on an HIV/AIDS support website, where many of the members have lost those near and dear to them who had AIDS. It makes you sound like a denialist or like you don't understand how A leads to B leads to death.
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Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline leatherman

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2010, 12:13:37 PM »
I sort of expected (or hoped) to find a forum on the topic (death with dignity) rather than the occasional stray thread.
I had hoped that would be the topic too. Stick around though. ;) Maybe after the discussion concludes that people do indeed die from AIDS  ::) we can discuss what needs to be/should be done when someone is terminally ill and in the last days of life - let them suffer till their final breath or determine a sane way to allow them to depart with some dignity.

I plan to not go to a hospital at the last (why? it's not like they'll be able to save me at the last. ::) just like when the doctor said that they was nothing to be done for Gosling's partner) but find some iceberg to float away on.  :D

by the way, I was discussing this with another LTS friend of mine (who had himself been a nurse in a hospital) and he made an interesing remark. Don't you find it interesting that when this incident happened the hospital or doctor didn't report it as a murder? And no family demanded an investigation? Obviously the man was so close to death that actual medical personnel and family didn't suspect anything like foul play. My friend thinks if charges should be filed, the hospital should take up the defense by declaring that such an incident/security breach surely did not happen as it would not be possible to "murder" one of their patients.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" from Les Miserables

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: BBC host admits to mercy killing
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2010, 12:14:13 PM »
So is there an update on this story?  He's in jail yeah?

 


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