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Author Topic: Why are we judged?  (Read 3461 times)

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Offline Nfctd2

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Why are we judged?
« on: February 10, 2010, 03:00:11 PM »
I just want to vent. Why is it that we are always  judged? Here is the what I just found out was overheard: Nurse to another nurse:  "You know that they are not going to do nerve sparing?"Doctor: "He has HIV,  getting rid of the cancer is our first concern, then making sure the rest of us are protected".  This is about me and why the doctor did not do a nerve sparing prostatectomy I thought I was going to have, thus leaving me impotent and without feeling for the rest of my  life. This is the 3rd time in 1 year that I have been judged by a doctor because of my status. Another man in my ASO has been judged 3 times  recently because of his status.  (refused treatment) . Why are these people so ignorant?  Pos.  for 12 years and never infected anyone and now he made sure I will never be capable of having sex again?   I wish I had not been sedated,  or I would have told them to go to hell. What kind of doctor decides to put an end to my sexual  life at 49 years of age  just because I have HIV? Uneducated? Fearful?  Judgemental? Cruel?  I was surprised when the nurse told me about this after I just got done explaining to my urologist after he asked me how  were my erections that I  have never been able to  have any  nor  have any feeling down there any more. and just for information,  I am  not gay or black; Just have an illness for which there is no cure. How do you deal with this? It is getting worse every  year the last 3 or 4 years.  >:( And my doctor wonders why I am depressed????

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 03:07:30 PM »
Welcome to the Forums.

Appalling stuff you relate here. Have you raised the matter with your ASO? Mobilised local advocates to object to these shocking lapses in care?

MtD

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 03:35:57 PM »


   Vent??!?  I would be breaking shit.. 

   I think the general population views people like us as deserving.  Never mind the fact that many of those who  judge have also had unprotected sex at some point in their life, the only difference between us and them is that we got caught. 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 03:59:47 PM »
Am I understanding this correctly?

Are you saying that the doctor had the option of sparing the nerves or of not sparing the nerves and he purposely chose not to spare the nerves for the specific reason that he wanted to insure that you cannot have sex again so that you can't infect anyone?



Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 04:19:55 PM »
Am I understanding this correctly?

Are you saying that the doctor had the option of sparing the nerves or of not sparing the nerves and he purposely chose not to spare the nerves for the specific reason that he wanted to insure that you cannot have sex again so that you can't infect anyone?




That's the understanding I have formed after reading the OP.

MtD

Offline pos2007

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 06:02:22 PM »
 I have had the 'judging' conversation  a lot lately myself with  another pos  friend who feels the same way. I might be wrong,  but I  think it is getting worse.  There are 2 doctors I refuse to go back to  because of their ignorant and demeaning  assumptions. I  had a prostatectomy  last year that was supposed to be unilateral  ( 1 side)  nerve sparing. I  have my  doubts since there is no feeling or sign anything is  happening for me either even with ED meds. ,  especially  after his  secretary told my  wife that I  have "unrealistic expectations".  I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. One thing  I was told is that there is quite a few men with HIV that are getting prostate cancer at  a much  younger age than normal. I am only a couple years older than  you,  but still consider that young for PCa. Yeah it is depressing.  I have low testosterone and that is also  supposed to cause  depression. If I  had to  do  it  over,  my  wife and I agree,  I 'd rather have the  cancer/prostate/everything else  back.
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Offline newt

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 06:27:09 PM »
Medical secretaries, well they are a law unto themselves, it's probably easier just to set fire to their hair than complain

As for doctors, there is a saying "Don't get sad, get even" (me) and another "Every Life is equal" (Bill Gates).

There is a good question to have: "Is that attitude/comment acceptable professionally?" It helps if you have an alternative source of care, but, yup, we UK "socialists" with the NHS, yes we always do. I have become merciless with healthcare people, but also calm, because, after a long time, I love myself and will not put up with crap.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline sdguyloveslife

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 08:08:55 PM »
and just for information,  I am  not gay or black; Just have an illness for which there is no cure.

I'm confused...  So, are you saying that if you were, God forbid, gay or black, you would have been able to find an acceptable explanation as to why they did this to you? 

Would you care to explain what in the world you mean by this???  I didn't read it in a very good way, but maybe I should let you backpedal and re-state your position.   
Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 08:12:08 PM »
I am  not gay or black; Just have an illness for which there is no cure.

Dude, wait what?  >:(

Nicely picked out there by SDGuyloveslife.

MtD
(Who misses stuff because he spends time dealing with WWs in AMI)

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 08:17:51 PM »
I saw it and at the time couldn't summon the Outrage Energy.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 08:22:34 PM »
I saw it and at the time couldn't summon the Outrage Energy.

All spent fending off blizzard wandering man-whores dear? :)

MtD

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 08:29:19 PM »
There we go. Another random, outrageous, leftfield post by someone who's never been to the forums, specifically designed to get a rise out of us. We just keep getting a lot of those lately. Interesting that the OP wants to discuss "being judged" when [evidently] he does the exact same thing to other people.

Out of this thread. Sorry, but it simply offended me.  
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Nfctd2

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 08:52:04 PM »
Obviously, I did not do a very good job of explaining myself or some of  you take serious offense to someone who has been positive for years and made their first post deciding to join by flaming their post. I only mentioned I am not gay  or black because there seems to be a cruel  stigma against HIV positive gay and black people.  since I am neither, it seems  the problem is related to my being HIV positive. I have many gay and black friends, so  don't stir the race crap.  for what it is worth I would rather be  black  and have the acceptance some of  my  black friends have from their families than put up with the biggotry and  negatism out of my  own  family.   You  have done of  fine job of making me wish  I   have never joined poz. forums .  I thought the nit picking and negative comments were finally getting  to be less here than in the past; Obviously  not and finally deciding to  join was a mistake.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 08:56:30 PM »
All spent fending off blizzard wandering man-whores dear? :)

MtD

Yeah, hopefully Da Mutton Chops will pop upstairs so I can sponge him off.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 01:48:37 AM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 08:56:49 PM »
Nfctd,

The written word can be an imperfect medium.

In your OP the line about gays and blacks can be read as though you're suggesting that perhaps you're being treated badly by service providers because you are not gay or black.

There have been times when unsavoury characters have come in here seeking to make trouble by playing that line.

If you say that isn't the case and you in fact meant the opposite, Matty the Damned (for one) is prepared to assume good faith on your part. :)

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 08:57:41 PM »
I thought the nit picking and negative comments were finally getting  to be less here than in the past; Obviously  not and finally deciding to  join was a mistake.

And you know this how seeing as how you just joined three days ago?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Nfctd2

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 09:26:55 PM »
Obviously as I said,  joining is a mistake since there are some of you that  troll exclusively for controversy. I  have  read Aids, meds and POZ  for years.  There is no requirement  to join  or  post to  read. It  is  clear,  I  am not going to be inclined to b around long enough to make 6 (?) posts  so I  can answer the private messages. Thank  you for your kind words, Matty.the damned. I just felt like  trying to getting a broader spectrum opinion than the rehash, my friends and I seem to do  when we talk. I meant no offense to  anyone,  nor  do  I  think anyone  should be made to explain themeselves,  though I have.  Among my friends,  5 are gay, 4 are black, 1 is PuertoRican, 1 is French, and 4 are pos.  so please  don't  jump  to conclusions about people the first thing you read from  them .

Offline sdguyloveslife

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 09:31:38 PM »
Among my friends,  5 are gay, 4 are black, 1 is PuertoRican, 1 is French, and 4 are pos.  so please  don't  jump  to conclusions about people the first thing you read from  them .

Hmmm, I wonder how they would have interpreted your initial post? 
Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 10:23:06 PM »
The written word can be an imperfect medium.
sadly yes. around here, most everyone seems to want you to only post in quips (which quite frequently read/sound as if written very sarcastically) or in just a few sentences so their little brains aren't taxed by all the big words and too many sentences. However, if you take the time to fully explain yourself in several paragraphs then you'll receive complaints of being too wordy and boring the crowd by saying too much.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't - seems to be the motto around here many times. ::)
(as you can see, Leatherman subscribes to fully explaining himself and says, very pleasantly, 'screw u' to those who think his posts are too long.)

are you saying that if you were, God forbid, gay or black, you would have been able to find an acceptable explanation as to why they did this to you? 
Hmmm, I wonder how they would have interpreted your initial post? 
I interpreted the original poster as pointing out, IMHO correctly, that usually gays and blacks are more likely to receive prejudiced or bigoted treatment by those in the medical profession, or quite frankly most any profession. This, of course, wouldn't be an "acceptable explanation" for his treatment, and he didn't imply that, but certainly in modern society, being black or gay could have been a logical "unacceptable" explanation for his treatment. The OP obviously wanted to dispel that as the reason for the treatment he was receiving as he is not black or gay and seems to only be receiving the brunt of HIV stigma.

Hmmm, I wonder how they would have interpreted your initial post? 
I'm sure his gay and black friends are fully cognizant about discrimination and probably wondered what their white male friend must have said or done to have received the kind of treatment that they, not he, usually have to deal with. ;)

Uneducated? Fearful?  Judgemental?
Welcome to the forums, Nfctd2.

Probably all three of those reasons. I doubt cruelty. In a perfect world, medical professionals would be truly caring and helpful. Unfortunately doctors and nurses are just people too and often don't leave their bigoted opinions at the door. Don't believe me? Be a gay patient in a catholic hospital.  ;) Their condemnation is usually not out-spoken but still there subtlety in the things they do say and do to you as a patient (oops! the poster already explained that he understood this kind of stigma)

Unfortunately bigotry doesn't always apply to get being gay or black, HIV does engender it's own bigotry even from medical (supposed) professionals.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 10:27:24 PM »
sadly yes. around here, most everyone seems to want you to only post in quips (which quite frequently read/sound as if written very sarcastically) or in just a few sentences so their little brains aren't taxed by all the big words and too many sentences. However, if you take the time to fully explain yourself in several paragraphs then you'll receive complaints of being too wordy and boring the crowd by saying too much.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't - seems to be the motto around here many times.  ::)
(as you can see, Leatherman subscribes to fully explaining himself and says, very pleasantly, 'screw u' to those who think his posts are too long.)


To paraphrase the Swan of Avon: "Brevity is the soul of wit."

MtD


Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2010, 10:34:58 PM »

   He opened his post by saying he needed to vent.  Can't we allow a new member to come here and do so without tearing him apart.  I saw the offensive line during my initial reading, but like a lot of new forum members figured the guy was posting under a certain amount of duress.

   Nfctd2, if you want to be a contributing member of the forums or not is up to you.  I hope you can see how offensive your statement was and how stuff like that can be read differently than what you meant.  So now it's up to you, either you can meet half way in apologizing for your mistake and accept the fact that you offended some people here, or you can continue to send out: not-so-humble-comments-after-I-screwed-up...  totally up to you.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2010, 10:35:31 PM »
 and just for information,  I am  not gay or black;  

When I first read it I did a double-take on the "not gay or black" line but then I noticed "and just for information," which I took to mean he was just saying it as an aside, giving some information about himself. No question it's awkwardly phrased.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2010, 10:41:18 PM »
To paraphrase the Swan of Avon: "Brevity is the soul of wit."
Not everyone here wants to be witty though ;);
sometimes they just want some help, sympathy or compassion.

Be too brief around here and obviously you can easily become a "racist bigot".
Sometimes less is not better when you're trying to explain yourself, as Nfctd2 has quickly found out.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2010, 10:44:26 PM »
Not everyone here wants to be witty though ;);
sometimes they just want some help, sympathy or compassion.

Be too brief around here and obviously you can easily become a "racist bigot".
Sometimes less is not better when you're trying to explain yourself, as Nfctd2 has quickly found out.

And a review of the thread shows that Matty the Damned was the first to accept Nfctd's explanation of his comment and grant the benefit of the doubt.

MtD

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2010, 10:48:16 PM »


    Who can pee the farthest I wonder...
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2010, 10:49:40 PM »
Who can pee the farthest I wonder...

I can.

MtD ;)

Offline leatherman

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2010, 10:55:20 PM »
And a review of the thread shows that Matty the Damned was the first to accept Nfctd's explanation of his comment and grant the benefit of the doubt.
I never said otherwises. ::)

However, obviously by your acceptance of the OP's explanation you acknowledged that his comments didn't read well and could have been better worded or more fully explained to have avoided this confrontation. Yet when I agreed with you that the written word was an imperfect medium and suggested to those who had been offended that perhaps the OP should have more fully explained his comments, you came back with a quip that didn't add to either of the discussions in this thread - the discussion of the OP about the stigma he received, or the discussion about how his inelegant, not-fully developed explanation sounded offensive.

Leatherman pisses further and says thanks for playing.  ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2010, 10:57:11 PM »



   and this is what they call golden showers folks! ;)  grab your umbrellas!
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline pos2007

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2010, 10:58:13 PM »
post number 3 says:
I meant no offense to  anyone,[/color
I take that as an apology, though I didn't think was was due. Having been sufficiently  hammered for not making extensively explained posts, in the past I  got  it.
Diagnosed  CD4 138 VL. 38,000
Partner Diagnosed CD4 <20  VL.  488,000

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2010, 11:45:37 PM »
These forums are getting weird.  Maybe I have just been hanging around here too long, but it seems every other week there is a new person coming on here bugging out about responses they get and mentioning flame baiting and trolls.

hmmm..maybe I am reading too much into it.

Sorry to hear about your situation and welcome to the forums.  I think you should definitely complain if you think you got inadequate care just because of your HIV status (actually, you should complain even if you weren't poz and unhappy with the surgery)

Offline Angel-Ronnie

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2010, 12:59:16 AM »
Because we are all different, yet at the core of who we are, we are all human, equal in so many ways. HIV/AIDS was always labeled as the gayman's disease or as in Africa the blackman's disease. It was never heard of that straights get HIV/AIDS and if any straight man or woman get the disease then they are labeled as someone that had no moral values. So the stigma and the judgment came long before the full hiv/aids crissis in the world, as the gayman's or blackman's disease for living a promiscous lifestyle, filled with drugs, sex, and so much more.

We all know the stigma that came with hiv/aids the judgment, but now it has changed it is not only affecting the gayman or the black man, it is a disease that now touches many lives. HIV/Aids can no longer be labeled as it has no colour, no race, no culture, no politcal views nor does it have a face or a body that can have relation to hiv/aids.

He apologised by saying he didn't mean to offend anyone, so let's take it with grace and all in good faith. If anyone had a similar experience at any hospital or health care practice help "Nfctd2" by giving him advice as to how to deal with this situation. Does it matter if he just joined these forums? He like many have been living with hiv for many years and have been reading this forums for as long as what he has hiv, by choice he didn't contribute. the Stigma and judgment only happened to others not him, but it changed it happened to him and needs sound advice as to how to deal with it!

Sorry that is how i see the "OP's" problem. 
Bide the Wiccan law ye must,
In perfect love and perfect trust
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill
An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

What ye send forth comes back to thee,
so ever mind the Law of three,
follow this with mind and heart,
Merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

Offline darkerpozz

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2010, 01:46:49 AM »
Hey nfctd2,
I am sorry to hear you had to deal with this type of bigotry in the state your were in. You said you wanted to vent and I took the comments as such which many of us at times can write things that may be construed by others as politically wobbly. I say welcome to "thicker skin club" membership comes from years of living life in this constantly evolving world. My thoughts are as such remove expectations of all cause trust me you just can't always write reality.

Offline komnaes

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2010, 03:41:12 AM »
Quote
I am  not gay or black; Just have an illness for which there is no cure.

Actually this is perfect for a word/logic game. By way of comparsion, how about:

(Venting of one being treated poorly or unfairly because of one's race, say, black) I don't have an incurable disease like HIV, just a black man.

Not judging, just want to see how others might feel..
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline Angel-Ronnie

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2010, 04:31:03 AM »
i'm a gay man and i have hiv...... fact
i'm african and i have hiv ........fact
i'm african but i'm white.....fact
i go for treatment they refuse me treatment or help they discriminate against me because i'm african and i'm gay, that will be another fact...... why, because that is how society has labeled hiv/aids as a gayman's disease or blackman's disease..... if i had no pic on my profile people will assume I am black because I am african. now the "OP" has a problem in a way he stigmatised because that is how society thinks, even being positive himself. he went for help and they left him hanging he felt that same stigma and judgement most of us face, so where does it leave him? upset, hurt, don't know how to reach out. so he comes here seeking help because the medical professionals did to him what they did to most of us...... discriminate, stigmatised because he has hiv......

now hiv/aids has no colour, it has no race, it has no culture, no creed or political connection what so ever.
it is no longer just a gay man's disease, i
t is no longer a black man's disease,
it is gay, straight, bi-sexual,  transgenders disease.
 hiv has no limitations nor boundaries.....does it?

now where does it leave him?


nowhere....
it leaves him nowhere.........
because the community he thought that will help him turned something into a racist slandering because he is not gay and he is not black......

so are we any better than those medical professionals that discriminated against him because he has hiv?

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 04:39:16 AM by FallenAngel »
Bide the Wiccan law ye must,
In perfect love and perfect trust
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill
An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

What ye send forth comes back to thee,
so ever mind the Law of three,
follow this with mind and heart,
Merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

Offline Ann

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Re: Why are we judged?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2010, 06:15:59 AM »
post number 3 says:
I meant no offense to  anyone,[/color
I take that as an apology, though I didn't think was was due. Having been sufficiently  hammered for not making extensively explained posts, in the past I  got  it.

No, you "got it" because you're one and the same person. How else do you explain the identical IP addresses and the identical weird little typing error where you both put extra spaces between words? I've been working on this forum for a long time now and that's the first time I recall ever seeing that little quirk.

I hate to do this, but as creating second accounts - and then pretending to be two different people - is against our Terms of Membership and is a bannable offence. I have no choice but to ban you.


Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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