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Author Topic: Benedict lays another egg  (Read 7481 times)

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Offline aztecan

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Benedict lays another egg
« on: February 02, 2010, 10:02:18 PM »
I couldn't let this pass without at least a mention, especially considering what his visit cost the Australians not long ago.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/02/01/national-secular-society-plans-protest-for-popes-uk-visit/

OK, let's add bad to worse, shall we?

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/02/01/pope-benedict-xvi-criticises-gay-rights-in-equality-bill/

I love the part where he says using condoms make the HIV pandemic worse.

OY!

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Jody

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2010, 11:10:08 PM »
Oy is right Mark, only it's worse than all that for gay folks whose rights are denied and whose employment, living conditions, health issues, etc., etc., etc. are all being negatively affected by those of various faiths who claim to love all God's creatures and who bash us, outwardly or in ways where so many are at the very least influenced by their comments.  Words do hurt.  And trying to teach folks about being safe and yet sexually fulfilled which is much more important to humans than some would want to admit.  Young folks in particular are left with mixed messages which is leaving so many open to mistakes and regrets, some permanent.

And speaking of religious zealots, how about good ol' Pat Robertson, is he a piece of work or what?  I mean the most truly vile and awful comments about Haitians being punished with the earthquake for some perceived sins of their ancestors came from the snakes mouth.  Can a tornado just land a house or better yet an oil truck on this one's head already?!?!?  Just leave the feet sticking out so we can be certain he's done with. 

Jody  >:( :( ??? :'(
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world".
 "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

Grateful Dead

Offline anniebc

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 11:31:50 PM »
My beautiful Catholic Grandmother would probably turn in her grave if she heard me saying this..(mind you the women swore like a trooper)...but I think the man is a complete idiot.

Hugs
Jan :-*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 08:00:24 AM »
Thanks for posting this, Mark. I signed the petition.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 02:21:28 PM »
I'm a pretty avid atheist so I ignored this at first, but I just read some of the things he is accused of saying.  Is any one human being really that stupid.  More to the point, is anyone large group of people stupid enough to listen to him?

Offline anniebc

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 04:27:52 PM »
  More to the point, is anyone large group of people stupid enough to listen to him?

Yes the majority of Catholics...to the devout his word is law, to the others he is just an old man spouting Sh*t.

Hugs
Jan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 04:43:23 PM »
From what I understand of the Pope he operates in a world of abstractions and absolutes. If you think the purpose of sex is procreation only then being against premarital sex, condoms, masturbation, abortion and homosexuality makes sense.

Offline pozniceguy

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 05:29:52 PM »
I have to agree with Ford  ( GSO   ) when you live/operate in the totally esoteric environment, surrounded by intensely loyal supporters that you appoint to "guard" the Faith.. then you  almost have to believe you are the ultimate arbitrator of morals of the followers  ( millions of them).  more so when you see that your predecessors  ( many of them at least) have become "Saints"  , that really reinforces your infallibility.....and supports the whole idea of the Papacy as...  " the  chosen representative of GOD"

Nick
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
Le stelle la notte sono grandie luminose, nel cuore profondo del Texas

Offline Basquo

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 09:06:16 PM »
I found the Pope's public email address today...am I allowed to post it here? I'm so tempted to email him and ask him if all these media reports are true about what he's supposedly saying.

I also want to tell him he's portrayed in the media as a stupid wanker, I'm willing to give the Pope a little wiggle room. For now.

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 09:18:35 PM »
I found the Pope's public email address today...am I allowed to post it here? I'm so tempted to email him and ask him if all these media reports are true about what he's supposedly saying.

I also want to tell him he's portrayed in the media as a stupid wanker, I'm willing to give the Pope a little wiggle room. For now.

If you found it, it can't be much of a secret so post away.

Wiggle room? I hope you're joking. This man is a monster.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Basquo

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 09:34:39 PM »

Offline Cerrid

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2010, 01:14:20 PM »
That's what happens if you're a member of the Hitler Youth before you embark on a career as a life-long incense sniffer...

Talking about religious leaders gone insane, I find this little snippet just as worth mentioning:

1000 Rabbis Warn: Open Homosexuality in the Military is a Disaster and May Cause Further Natural Disasters




"Boredom is always counterrevolutionary. Always." (Guy Debord)

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2010, 08:05:34 PM »
Back in the day, I could stop traffic with my eyes, I went to dinner with a Priest (defrocked of course).  Father G, wanted so much to give me a blow job and since dinner at Cafe O'Opera was so nice, I let him.

We used the bathroom at his house, which was adorned with Miss Piggy wallpaper.  He was so excited, he peed on his floor.  Other than dressing as a Nun and going bar hopping, that was my only religious experience  ;D  Have the best day
Michael
(who enjoys Eggs Benedict at Sunday Brunch)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 08:07:24 PM by Sonomabeach »

Offline MYSTERY

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2010, 08:41:51 PM »
I agree with the Pope. I do think that people have a false sense of security when they use condoms. I am not saying that condoms don't help, but by no means is it SAFE sex. The position of the Church is one that holds human sexuality to the highest regard between two married couples that are open to life while having sex.

Unfortunately, not everyone is going to hold sex in that regard, and some will look at the Churches position as being cruel and unusual. The Church is just holding human sexuality to the highest regard with the sexual act being open to life.

I am a PROUD Catholic and LOVE CHRIST'S bride, the Church. I do think it is fine to debate the teachings of the Church, but I think some people think it is OK to bash the Church in a very uncharitable way that is offensive to some members of this forum. Most moderators will step in if we insult one another, but why is it OK to be offensive to someones faith.
Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2010, 08:58:36 PM »
I agree with the Pope. I do think that people have a false sense of security when they use condoms. I am not saying that condoms don't help, but by no means is it SAFE sex. The position of the Church is one that holds human sexuality to the highest regard between two married couples that are open to life while having sex.

Unfortunately, not everyone is going to hold sex in that regard, and some will look at the Churches position as being cruel and unusual. The Church is just holding human sexuality to the highest regard with the sexual act being open to life.

I am a PROUD Catholic and LOVE CHRIST'S bride, the Church. I do think it is fine to debate the teachings of the Church, but I think some people think it is OK to bash the Church in a very uncharitable way that is offensive to some members of this forum. Most moderators will step in if we insult one another, but why is it OK to be offensive to someones faith.

Condoms are not infallible, but as the AIDS epidemic grows it's one of the best practical approaches to preventing the spread of HIV.  I understand that the pope doesn't feel that way, but that he holds sway over the beliefs of >MILLIONS< of other people makes me angry that he would bash them openly.  Frankly if he has nothing helpful to say, he shouldn't be talking at all.

He has a pulpit to preach from and even in the marriage bed for the act of procreation HIV can be spread from one partner to another.  I'm sorry if I ruffled feathers, but just because he is a glorified religious leader doesn't put him above reproach.

Offline Jody

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2010, 09:11:17 PM »
Dear Mystery...It is good that you have posted as debate, when peaceful, is always a good thing.  I wanted to post here this evening to protest the rabbi and his unkind thoughts that militant homosexualist policy was taking precedence over the economy and so many Americans were suffering.  What awful scapegoating of the worst kind and a pox on his house!  And I just so happen to be Jewish, not as religious as my father or his father, but like most I am reform, thank God  ;)

Anyway the beautiful rabbi should of course be aware that gays serve openly in Israel, one of only 23 nations on earth that allow gays to serve, most in Europe.  Of course by serving in the military where most of the joking is good natured from what I hear, that enables the ultra-orthodox citizens not to have to serve themselves.  Hmmmmm...It's funny (or tragic) how things go sometimes.

Getting back to your concerns regarding Catholic bashing, I don't think any normal person here dislikes Catholic folks, it is just that a historically powerful and influential institution has taken a stance that very closely resembles gay bashing and often legitimizes through various methods, the firing of a gay man from his job, the verbal attack at the mall of a lesbian woman or the clubbing or worse of a gay guy leaving a restaurant.
The churhes stance on safe sex is to many of us a medieval way of thinking and quite frankly this is appalling!

Sorry but many of us out here feel compelled to speak up and fight back against these policies no matter which religious leader is spewing them.

Jody
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 09:13:51 PM by Jody »
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world".
 "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

Grateful Dead

Offline MYSTERY

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2010, 09:26:13 PM »
Hey Hellraiser,

You are right condoms are NOT infallible. I also agree that the use of condoms can help with the reductions of new HIV cases. But, the position of the Church is not one to support casual sex. The Church as most other Christian Churches support only married couples to have sex.

I know that not everyone is Catholic or could give a crap what the Church teaches, but in a perfect world if everyone followed Her teachings we would not have this issue would we. I know we don't live in a perfect world and not everyone has the same ideas on faith. God knows I have made my own mistakes in this world. I do however in my opinion see the wisdom in the teachings of the Church.

You are right that the Pope is not above reproach, but I would just hope that it would be done in a way that is not offensive to members of this forum. We all have the right to come to this site and feel comfortable and not feel bad about our personal views. That APPLIES to ALL people from ALL walks of life.

It is fine to have conversations that are charitable and do not insult peoples faith or any other aspect of ones life.

By no means am I saying you were bashing the church, but some have called the Pope a monster which is very offensive to someone who belongs to the Church.

Sometime I think it is OK to bash something as long as the majority of people agree with it. Just think if someone got on to this site and started bashing HIV positive people. How long do you think that person would last on this site.

I just think we need to be respectful to everyone and have conversations with respect for everyone that may be involved that use this forum.


Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Offline MYSTERY

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 09:36:01 PM »
Hi Jody,

I don't blame anyone for using their God given right to exercise their free will. In fact, some people don't even believe in GOD so some of this stuff seems very crazy to them. I don't fault anyone for their ideas. My point is that we must ALL remember to be charitable when posting. I would hate to have anyone feel uncomfortable to come to this site because they feel like an outsider for what they believe in.

Charitable conversation is a good thing. The Catholic Church can not make anyone do anything. It is up to each individual to exercise their right to accept or deny the teachings of the Church. I just want people in this forum to be conscience of the fact that there are Catholics on this site who agree with the teachings of the Church, and it would be disingenuous if we had a forum that was hostile to ANY person that may participate in this forum.  ;D
Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Offline aztecan

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  • 29 years positive, 57 years a pain in the butt
Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2010, 11:09:14 PM »
Hey Mystery,

As the OP (original poster) of this thread, I can assure you it wasn't meant to attack individual beliefs or make anyone feel uncomfortable. But it was meant to point out and take to task what can and, in my case, are perceived as homophobic remarks made by someone who leads a billion people on this planet.

I have also either posted or commented similarly on, remarks made by other religious leaders, such as Pat Robertson, who said the Haitians are getting what they deserve, or, as Jody and others pointed out, the Rabbis condemnation.

I also would do the same to political leaders or anyone who holds sway among the populous. It is our right and our duty to speak out for ourselves, our people, nation and planet.

I would correct you about one point. The Catholic Church's teaching about sex is that sex is only for procreation. That means not only is sex between unmarried people verbotten, but so is masterbation and sex within the bonds of marriage for pleasure only, i.e., a wife giving her husband oral sex or vice versa.

If the Catholic Church wants to prescribe this prohibition to its followers, that is between the church and its followers.

But when those doctrines are being espoused in such a way as to try to incorporate them into non-Catholic venues, then I believe we must speak out.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline MYSTERY

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2010, 12:30:31 AM »
Hi Mark,

By no means have I thought you were bashing the Catholic Church. I was not offended by your posting. I have viewed many of your posts and have ALWAYS found you to be a very helpful and respectful to all people.

My comments are to the people that want to engage in posting comments that are not charitable, and are offensive to someone like myself who agree with the teachings of the Church.

I agree with you in saying that it is your right to speak out against things that you disagree with. That is your right. But, it is also my right to defend the Church and give examples as to why I feel the way I do. I should also be able to come to this forum without feeling like people are inappropriately commenting on my faith in a way which is offensive to me and makes me feel bad to participate in this forum. The Administrators of this forum would not tolerate it in any other conversation, and I can't understand why they would tolerate it when it comes to a person's faith.

I do not think you are singling out the Catholic Church. I also felt that Pat Robertson made some very inappropriate comments regarding those poor souls in Haiti.

I must correct you on one point the Catholic Church at one time did prescribe that sex was only for procreation. The Church has changed its stance on the subject of marital sex.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, "A particular aspect of [the fecundity of marriage] concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children" (CCC 2368). But the Catechism does not explicitly define what constitutes "just reasons." Instead, proper determination is left up to the couple: "It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood" (CCC 2368).

However, the language used in Church documents may be somewhat helpful. For example, Gaudium et Spes states, Certain modern conditions often keep couples from arranging their married lives harmoniously, and they find themselves in circumstances where at least temporarily the size of their families should not be increased. As a result, the faithful exercise of love and the full intimacy of their lives is hard to maintain. (GS 51)

Humanae Vitae says that a couple may morally space births if there are well-grounded reasons "arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances" (HV 16).

Ultimately, each couple must determine for themselves whether "just reasons" truly exist. Vademecum for Confessors Concerning Some Aspects of the Morality of Conjugal Life explains, "Certainly it is a duty of married couples—who, for that matter, should seek appropriate counsel—to deliberate deeply and in a spirit of faith about the size of their family, and to decide the concrete mode of realizing it, with respect for the moral criteria of conjugal life". Natural family planning enables every married couple to participate in intimacy without getting pregnant.

Mark, I would also agree with you in saying that if one is not Catholic you would not have to worry about following the teachings of the Church. My only concern is as I stated earlier. We must All remember to keep in mind that ALL people have the right to be respected in this forum. We must ALL remember to show dignity to ALL people of ALL kinds of beliefs.

Mark take care and many BLESSINGS to you.





« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:34:02 AM by MYSTERY »
Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Offline edfu

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2010, 02:36:11 AM »
The Catholic Church can not make anyone do anything. It is up to each individual to exercise their right to accept or deny the teachings of the Church.

If that is so, then why does the Catholic Church try to make its beliefs the law of the land, forcing those who
"deny the teachings of the Church" to follow those beliefs under penalty of governmental law?  

I do think that people have a false sense of security when they use condoms. I am not saying that condoms don't help, but by no means is it SAFE sex. 

If that's what you believe, I don't understand why you are on this site.  If nothing else, one of the prime principles of the moderators here, especially in the "Am I Infected?" thread, is that condoms provide completely safe sex in regard to HIV. 

The position of the Church is one that holds human sexuality to the highest regard between two married couples that are open to life while having sex.

And when human sexuality "between two married couples" is open to death while having sex, what is the rationale for preventing such a potential death?     
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 02:51:59 AM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2010, 08:02:15 AM »
The position of the Church is one that holds human sexuality to the highest regard between two married couples that are open to life while having sex.

Between "two couples"? Swingers club?  

Being half cat myself I don't buy the whole infallibility of the Pope.  Not even my mum does.  I don't think that  the comments here are bashing the church; they're simply disagreeing with comments made by its key representative.

The pope wears Prada.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 08:04:22 AM by livebythemoon »
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline leese43

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 09:05:56 AM »
If that is so, then why does the Catholic Church try to make its beliefs the law of the land, forcing those who
"deny the teachings of the Church" to follow those beliefs under penalty of governmental law?  
[\quote]

Which land are Catholics "forcing" people to follow their beliefs?

If that's what you believe, I don't understand why you are on this site.  If nothing else, one of the prime principles of the moderators here, especially in the "Am I Infected?" thread, is that condoms provide completely safe sex in regard to HIV.  
[\quote]

Are you saying that if someone only believes that using condoms is SAFER sex and not 100% safe that they shouldn't be here?

And when human sexuality "between two married couples" is open to death while having sex, what is the rationale for preventing such a potential death?    

I'm quite sure you don't really need this answered.

Sorry, I have no idea how to use the quote button properly...
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 09:09:36 AM by leese43 »
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 10:43:07 AM »

By no means am I saying you were bashing the church, but some have called the Pope a monster which is very offensive to someone who belongs to the Church.


That would be me and I stand by my comment. I can think of worse ways of describing a man who is single-handedly doing more to spread hiv than anyone else on the planet. He's a public figure and as such, he's fair game to anyone who disagrees with the downright dangerous opinions he spews across the media. Calling a public figure a monster because of their hate-filled views is far, far different to "bashing" a fellow member on a health-related internet forum.

My intent was never to offend you or any other Catholic forum members. Consider this, if the opinion of an unbeliever (me) offends your or somehow diminishes your faith in this man, then maybe your faith isn't quite as strong as you would have us believe. When someone says something derogatory about a public figure I happen to hold in high regard, I take it for what it is - the opinion of someone with a different mind-set than me and I move on. I don't take it personally or assume that person also holds the same opinion about myself personally.

Let's face it, human beings are sexual beings. We were created that way. The sexual act serves more purposes than procreation alone. One of its most important functions is to create an intimate bond between two people. Biology is not interested in the man-made institution of marriage.

You are never going to stop people having sex with whomever they choose. What you can do is to promote ways for people to do so safely. Correctly used condoms rarely break and an unbroken condom will protect against hiv infection. This has been proven time and time again. Marriage does not protect against hiv, condoms do.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 10:59:48 AM »
Marriage does not protect against hiv,

Nor do the convoluted catechisms of the Roman Catholic Church.

Mystery (be he Sorrowful, Joyful, Glorious, or just plain Fabulous) is an impressive apologist for Rome. Matty the Damned was raised in the bosom of the Mother Church and he commend Mystery for his mastery of the Catechism.

But let's face it, this stuff has no basis in rationality. For all the fancy language and Latinate we're still talking about an operation which promotes the nonsense of the Virgin Birth and the Immaculate Conception.

All the high falutin' talk of spaced births and natural contraception - the reality remains the same. The Church forbids the use of condoms and as a result HIV continues to spread.

No organisation is more culpable for the propagation of AIDS amongst those dwelling in the developed world than the Vatican.

I submit that Mystery's claims of undue attack are unfounded. In a forum such as this it is appropriate that the Church of Rome is condemned for its perfidy regarding HIV and it is just that Her servants are made to feel uneasy.

MtD

Offline leese43

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 11:23:21 AM »
Marriage does not protect against hiv,


No organisation is more culpable for the propagation of AIDS amongst those dwelling in the developed world than the Vatican.


So what you are saying is these people listen to the pope with regards not using condoms BUT they turn a blind eye to all the other teachings?

Don't get me wrong, I question a lot of the teachings of the church and I'm catholic myself but that just doesn't make sense.

BTW my son goes to a catholic school and, guess what, it 2010, they teach them how to use condoms in sex ed. these days.
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2010, 11:34:10 AM »
So what you are saying is these people listen to the pope with regards not using condoms BUT they turn a blind eye to all the other teachings?

Don't get me wrong, I question a lot of the teachings of the church and I'm catholic myself but that just doesn't make sense.

BTW my son goes to a catholic school and, guess what, it 2010, they teach them how to use condoms in sex ed. these days.


Nope. That isn't what I'm saying.

The prelates of the Church in the developing world actively spread the lie that condoms assist in the spread of HIV. I'm talking Sub-Saharan Africa, Central and South America to name a few. In those places the Church has enormous sway over her followers.

Check this link for a touch of Catholic Insight.

If your son's school is teaching anything other than abstinence before marriage then it's operating in direct contravention of the will of Rome.

MtD

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2010, 11:41:35 AM »

So what you are saying is these people listen to the pope with regards not using condoms BUT they turn a blind eye to all the other teachings?


People do just that all the time. Many a Catholic who wouldn't be caught dead buying condoms in a shop will happily have an illicit, unprotected encounter in the back seat of their car, with the Virgin Mother watching from her post on the dashboard.


BTW my son goes to a catholic school and, guess what, it 2010, they teach them how to use condoms in sex ed. these days.


That's heartening to hear. If I'm correct, you live in the UK and even faith-based schools have to follow the national curriculum. This is not necessarily true in all countries and in countries without certain subjects being protected by a national curriculum, Catholic and other faith-based schools do not have to teach anything to do with sex education.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2010, 11:49:47 AM »
That's heartening to hear. If I'm correct, you live in the UK and even faith-based schools have to follow the national curriculum. This is not necessarily true in all countries and in countries without certain subjects being protected by a national curriculum, Catholic and other faith-based schools do not have to teach anything to do with sex education.

This is good to know. In Australia religious schools are permitted to ignore the standard sexual health curriculum out of respect to religious "freedom".

If Matty the Damned was intemperate in his remarks to Leese34 regarding UK schools in the above post, he apologises and unreservedly withdraws them. :)

MtD

Offline leese43

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2010, 12:06:11 PM »
People do just that all the time. Many a Catholic who wouldn't be caught dead buying condoms in a shop will happily have an illicit, unprotected encounter in the back seat of their car, with the Virgin Mother watching from her post on the dashboard.

Ann

Then they are not devout catholics and if they do become infected then this really is not because of the Catholic church.

I'll check that link MtD and no need to apologise.

Leese (who is  NOT a devout catholic either ;) )
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:08:18 PM by leese43 »
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2010, 12:18:47 PM »
That's heartening to hear. If I'm correct, you live in the UK and even faith-based schools have to follow the national curriculum. This is not necessarily true in all countries and in countries without certain subjects being protected by a national curriculum, Catholic and other faith-based schools do not have to teach anything to do with sex education.

This is good to know. In Australia religious schools are permitted to ignore the standard sexual health curriculum out of respect to religious "freedom".


It's a fairly recent development and you can read about it here and here.



Then they are not devout catholics and if they do become infected then this really is not because of the Catholic church.


It is when they live in a country where they have been denied correct information about condoms by the Catholic church or other faith-based organisations. We recently had a poster in the Am I Infected forum who stated he was taught that condoms do not protect against hiv so therefore he did not use them. This is a common teaching of the Catholic church. They insist there are "tiny holes" in condoms that permit hiv to escape.


Ann
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:21:36 PM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline MYSTERY

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2010, 12:25:51 PM »
To All,

It isn't my position to say that if one is out being sexually active not to practice "safer" sex. I do think that condoms reduce the spread of HIV. I just don't think condoms stop it entirely. If someone asked me if they should use protection while engaging in risky sex by all means i would say yes.

However, I do see the wisdom in the teachings of the Church. In a perfect world they are correct. If I would have followed the teachings of the Church closer I would not be in this forum right now.

No one can argue that condoms are affective, and if one is engaging in sex with someone outside of a committed relationship between two trusted people it is a good practice to use them.


If I were not a believer in GOD I would be right with most of you. I would be the biggest liberal in the world.... ;D...but I do believe in GOD and follow His teachings through the Sacraments of the Church. By no means am I saying that the Church is perfect. God knows it is not. But, I am not Catholic because of any man. I am Catholic because of the Sacraments.

I think we must also look at some of the good things the Catholic Church has done to help people with HIV/AIDS. The Church has reached out to many afflicted with this illness and has helped out to ensure that they had dignity and care while suffering with this illness.




« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:40:57 PM by MYSTERY »
Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2010, 12:36:28 PM »
No one can argue that condoms are affective [sic], and if one is engaging in sex with someone outside of a committed relationship between two trusted people it is a good practice to use them.

Good practice sure, but is it moral practice?

MtD

Offline leese43

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2010, 12:37:46 PM »
It is when they live in a country where they have been denied correct information about condoms by the Catholic church or other faith-based organisations. We recently had a poster in the Am I Infected forum who stated he was taught that condoms do not protect against hiv so therefore he did not use them. This is a common teaching of the Catholic church. They insist there are "tiny holes" in condoms that permit hiv to escape.


Ann
[/quote]

I do understand where you're coming from Ann and I agree that the Cathoilic church is way off base with this. But he would have also been told that to have sex at all outside of marriage would put him at risk, so why would someone listen to one thing and not the other? I would need to read his post to gain more insight. I hope you can see where I'm coiming from, I'm not trying to be argumentative I just think it's easier to blame the church than take responsibility.

Leese
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline MYSTERY

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2010, 12:47:45 PM »
Hey Matty,

According to the Church it would not be of a good Moral practice. I think you already knew that. ;D....

I agree with you leese43. The Church would not permit anyone to have sex outside of marriage and in doing so that would put someone at risk. It would also put someone at risk of losing their relationship with GOD through the act of Adultery. The Church is not so much concerned with the physical body as it is the Soul. We are all destined to die. No one getting out of here alive. The Church wants everyone to enjoy eternity with the creator. Life is very very short.
Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2010, 01:00:13 PM »

Hey Matty,

According to the Church it would not be of a good Moral practice. I think you already knew that. ;D....


Would it be of a bad moral practice?

I agree with you leese43. The Church would not permit anyone to have sex outside of marriage and in doing so that would put someone at risk.

See with all due respect Mystery, this is total horse-shit. What the Church permits or does not permit is beside the point. It is perfectly possible to have a sexual relationship outside of Catholic marriage without the risk of contracting HIV.

Use a latex condom in the appropriate manner. That's how you do it.

If on the other hand you're talking about the risk of being condemned to Hell, well that's a totally different sacristy full of altar boys kettle of eels.

MtD

Offline MYSTERY

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2010, 01:18:53 PM »
See with all due respect Mystery, this is total horse-shit. What the Church permits or does not permit is beside the point. It is perfectly possible to have a sexual relationship outside of Catholic marriage without the risk of contracting HIV.

Use a latex condom in the appropriate manner. That's how you do it.



MtD
[/quote]

I agree that it is perfectly possible to have sexual relationships outside of the Catholic marriage without the risk of contracting HIV. The Church is not so concerned with just the physical body. The Church is also concerned with ones Soul. Now if one does not believe in a Soul and feels that when a person is dead that is it, I understand that persons point. Do what ever you want just so it does not hurt another person.

I am not saying that everyone is going to be Catholic or a believer in GOD. Not going to happen. I am just saying that I agree with the teachings of the Church in the Fact that Condoms do not stop the spread of HIV. Sure individually if used correctly they are very effective, but studies have shown that people that are using them still contract HIV and the only sure way of not getting it is to practice abstinence or have a committed partner that one trusts who is negative.



Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2010, 01:23:55 PM »
Sure individually if used correctly they are very effective, but studies have shown that people that are using them still contract HIV and the only sure way of not getting it is to practice abstinence or have a committed partner that one trusts who is negative.

Reliable peer reviewed studies have shown nothing of the sort, dawg. You're spreading Catholic FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt).

Latex and polyurethane condoms used as prescribed prevent the transmission of HIV. To suggest otherwise is flat out ignorance or (more ominously) mendacity,

When it comes to abstinence and the "committed partner" thang, well science as far as I know has a whole different take.

MtD

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2010, 01:25:47 PM »
I'm assuming they mean condom failure/breakage.  I've never had a condom break on me however.  Adherence to using them is another issue altogether.  When you have some dude all up on your jock...

Wait, what?

Offline Basquo

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2010, 01:35:20 PM »
I am just saying that I agree with the teachings of the Church in the Fact that Condoms do not stop the spread of HIV. Sure individually if used correctly they are very effective, but studies have shown that people that are using them still contract HIV and the only sure way of not getting it is to practice abstinence or have a committed partner that one trusts who is negative.

Really?  Studies?  What studies? Have you linked any in this thread? I just scanned through and didn't see any links in your posts to any studies. Maybe I missed them? Studies, you say?

I agree with MtD this is starting to smell like horse shit. I used condoms and I didn't get HIV, then I stopped using them and I got it. That was my study.

Offline edfu

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2010, 01:57:16 PM »
I agree with the teachings of the Church in the Fact that Condoms do not stop the spread of HIV.

To cut to the chase:  This is madness, as it was last April when Mr. Mystery decided to preach Roman Catholic theology and canon law.  This site bans "denialists."  I do not see any difference between "denialists" and someone who states the above.  He should be banned. 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2010, 02:09:19 PM »

I am just saying that I agree with the teachings of the Church in the Fact that Condoms do not stop the spread of HIV. Sure individually if used correctly they are very effective, but studies have shown that people that are using them still contract HIV and the only sure way of not getting it is to practice abstinence or have a committed partner that one trusts who is negative.


Another one of the fallacies the Catholic Church likes to use in order to discourage people from using condoms. There have been three sero-discordant studies of poz/neg couples. There were thousands of couples involved and they were followed in two studies for three years and in one study for ten years. Not all of the poz partners were on meds and undetectable.

In the couples who used condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and CONSISTENTLY, not one of the neg partners became poz. While all participants were required to use condoms, those couples who experienced the seroconversion of the neg partner all confessed to not always using condoms. People who use condoms every time they have intercourse with someone of poz or unknown hiv status just do not become infected. (Except in the case of a condom break, and it is rarely ever the insertive partner who ends up poz in such cases, it's usually the receptive partner. Correctly used condoms rarely, if ever, break.)

The Catholic Church also likes to claim that condom use promotes promiscuity but study after study has found no truth in this belief. The fact is that people who are inclined to be promiscuous are going to be promiscuous whether or not they have access to condoms, or know how to use condoms, or whether or not they've swallowed the Catholic lies about the effectiveness of condoms against hiv, other STIs and pregnancy. People who are inclined to chastity will remain chaste whether or not they have access to condoms etc. It's not the condoms that are flawed, it's the people using - or more to the point, NOT using - the condoms who are flawed.

And yes, I agree, the only SURE way of not becoming hiv positive is to remain TOTALLY abstinent. Easier said than done. Our brains and physiology are hard-wired to crave sexual relations and sexual release. It's a pretty tall order to expect anyone to remain sexually inert.

The Catholic Church is run by men who aren't allowed to have sex and they sure as hell don't want anyone else doing it either, unless it is for the purpose of increasing their flock which in turn increases their already overflowing coffers. The Catholic Church is one of the richest and most powerful organisations on the planet and they don't want to give that position up.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline MYSTERY

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2010, 03:12:46 PM »
The Catholic Church is run by men who aren't allowed to have sex and they sure as hell don't want anyone else doing it either, unless it is for the purpose of increasing their flock which in turn increases their already overflowing coffers. The Catholic Church is one of the richest and most powerful organisations on the planet and they don't want to give that position up.
[/quote]

Ann,

If I am reading this correctly you are saying that if you and I were to become Best Friends Forever, (BFF's) that you WILL NOT be attending Sunday Mass with me..... ;D :D ;)
Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2010, 03:24:44 PM »

If I am reading this correctly you are saying that if you and I were to become Best Friends Forever, (BFF's) that you WILL NOT be attending Sunday Mass with me..... ;D :D ;)


You got that right, mate! ;D

I do have spiritual beliefs, but I don't belong to any organised religion and rather than try to impose my beliefs on others, I keep them strictly to myself. Pearls before swine and all that. :)
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline leese43

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2010, 03:25:07 PM »
If I am reading this correctly you are saying that if you and I were to become Best Friends Forever, (BFF's) that you WILL NOT be attending Sunday Mass with me..... ;D :D ;)
[/quote]

LOL :D
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2010, 03:39:55 PM »
note: blue=leese and red=mystery

It is when they live in a country where they have been denied correct information about condoms by the Catholic church or other faith-based organisations. We recently had a poster in the Am I Infected forum who stated he was taught that condoms do not protect against hiv so therefore he did not use them. This is a common teaching of the Catholic church. They insist there are "tiny holes" in condoms that permit hiv to escape.


Ann
[/quote]


See with all due respect Mystery, this is total horse-shit. What the Church permits or does not permit is beside the point. It is perfectly possible to have a sexual relationship outside of Catholic marriage without the risk of contracting HIV.

Use a latex condom in the appropriate manner. That's how you do it.



MtD
[/quote]

The Catholic Church is run by men who aren't allowed to have sex and they sure as hell don't want anyone else doing it either, unless it is for the purpose of increasing their flock which in turn increases their already overflowing coffers. The Catholic Church is one of the richest and most powerful organisations on the planet and they don't want to give that position up.
[/quote]


If I am reading this correctly you are saying that if you and I were to become Best Friends Forever, (BFF's) that you WILL NOT be attending Sunday Mass with me..... Grin Cheesy Wink
[/quote]


It's astonishing how you two have been consistently making the same formatting error when you attempt to use the quote function. A Catholic mind-meld, perhaps? Good thing I can see your IP addresses and so I know that you're posting from two different continents, otherwise I might begin to suspect you're the same person. :D
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline leese43

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2010, 04:07:35 PM »




 
It's astonishing how you two have been consistently making the same formatting error when you attempt to use the quote function. A Catholic mind-meld, perhaps? Good thing I can see your IP addresses and so I know that you're posting from two different continents, otherwise I might begin to suspect you're the same person. :D

[/quote]
LOL.. I have no idea how i get it right sometimes and not others. You'll have to tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline Ann

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2010, 06:41:16 PM »
You're removing the initial quote formatting when editing out some parts of the post you're quoting. You're removing the bit that looks like this:

Code: [Select]
[quote author=leese43 link=topic=31106.msg380487#msg380487 date=1265404055]
Only it won't say leese43, it will have the name of whoever you're quoting. Clear as mud, eh? :D
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 06:43:08 PM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline leese43

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Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2010, 06:48:10 PM »
You're removing the initial quote formatting when editing out some parts of the post you're quoting. You're removing the bit that looks like this:

Code: [Select]
[quote author=leese43 link=topic=31106.msg380487#msg380487 date=1265404055]
Only it won't say leese43, it will have the name of whoever you're quoting. Clear as mud, eh? :D

Gotcha..thanks!
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline tommy246

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  • Posts: 435
Re: Benedict lays another egg
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2010, 01:24:59 PM »
hi there hope you are keeping well ive been out for lunch and on the wine again so as i dare not post in the ladies section advertising myself again lol . i just thought i would say hi. How did you go at the docs are you on the meds yet there so easy i feel great on them dont let it worry you . What you will find is a massive energy boost my testerone level has shot up as well (lucky me ), good luck, regards tommy x.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

 


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