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Author Topic: Delayed Seroconversion?  (Read 11967 times)

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Offline Desperate

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Delayed Seroconversion?
« on: October 24, 2008, 12:34:33 PM »
Good afternoon to all.

I'm glad to find a website like this, for I'm going out of my mind.

I'm a 24 year old male  who lives in Brazil . About 100 days ago, I had what I considered to be high risk sexual activy, (insertive anal sex without condom) with a crossdresser i picked up on the street. There was ejaculation from my part.

I know foolsih of me to not use preservatives, but the fact is that i was very drink and did not seem to mind at that moment.

Anyhow, from then on i have beex experiencing all kinds of hiv symptons (headache, muscle ache, joint pains fatigue, weight loss, vision problems, gastro intestinal problems) among others. It's been crazy. Some of these symptonsstill persist today.

The problem is that throughout this paranoia, i have frequently tested with 43 days, 52 days, 60 days, 72 days, 82 days, 90 days, 93 days and recently today, with 100 days. Aside from the test result from today, which i did not get yet, all tests came back negative.  I always used to kinds of tests in these periods, 3º Gen. ELISA and 4º Gen Architect Abbot Ag/Ac  combo.

My question is, how can I be negative with all these symptoms? Is it possible that I still have not serocoverted??

Two more additional doubts please.

1) I did a hemogram last week and my Lymphocites we are at a good average 32% (Average 20 - 40%) This week i did another hemogram and my lymphocites werem below avarage. 18% They went from 2.464/ mm3 to 1.152 /mm2. My leucocites aslo decreased a little from 7.700/mm3 to 6.400 mm3. I know that an hemogram is not used to detect hiv itself, (which can only be confimed by the tests), but knowing that the hiv virus attacks the lymphocites, could this not be the hiv virus acting in my body?

2) The weight loss I mentioned looks a lot like lypodystrophy. Accoroding to my doctor, this would not be possible, for i have not take meds, and it is still to soon for the virus to do so much damage. However, I can cleary see that my arms are thinner, as nwell as legs (practically zero fat)  Als my face has gotten a lots thinner and my buttocks seem have lost some musculature too, for i am ecently having disconfort when sitting for a long time. I have always been a skinny person, that is these changes are much more visible to me. I can see veins in arms and legs and my face is cheekless.

All the doctors i consulted tell me that, since i'm not eating right, I'm losing weight , which can be depleted from legs, face, arms and buttocks, but that doesn't seem right,

Please help me, for I'm desperate. I have annoyed my doctor so much that she has finally prescribed me a viral load test, but that will only show results in 15 days.

I do not not know what to do anymore, i feel like I'm fading away.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 12:37:02 PM by Desperate »

Offline Ann

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2008, 12:47:09 PM »
Desperate,

You are conclusively hiv negative. You do NOT have hiv.

The vast majority of people who have actually been infected willl seroconvert and test positive by six weeks, with the average time to seroconversion being only 22 days. The window period for hiv testing is three months. You did not need to test past 90 days.

The only people who MIGHT take a little longer to seroconvert and test positive are those on chemotherapy for cancer, anti-rejection drugs following organ transplant, or those who have been injecting street drugs, every day, for YEARS. I trust you don't fall into any of those catagories.

As for your bloodwork question, ask your doctor. Nothing you mention is specific to hiv and this is an hiv specific website. Your bloodwork questions are outside our remit.

As for the weight loss, I totally agree with your doctor. Listen to him. He knows what he's talking about - that's why he has a diploma and is called "doctor".

You do NOT have hiv. Keep working with your doctor to find out what, if anything, is wrong with you. Whatever it is, it is NOT hiv. You do NOT have hiv!

And a word of caution about the viral load test - they are NOT approved for diagnostic purposes because they have a high rate of false positives. Let's hope you don't get one of those.  You did NOT need this test, you don't have hiv. You are ALREADY conclusively hiv NEGATIVE.

Please use condoms in future. To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Desperate

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2008, 01:47:53 PM »
Dear Ann.

Thank you for your immediate reply.

This is what all the doctors I consulted infomed me. If its negative at 3 months, it will always be. However, aside from drug injectors, organ transplants, and drug injectors, aren't there some people with auto imune diseases that do take a longer time to develop antibodies?

I remember when I was born, I was diagnosed with a disease called West Sydrome. I do not know the exact pathology of this disease, but according to all doctors, I was cured from it. Anyhow, I do not know if this could be considered a disease whereas it woudl contribute to the delay in antibody appearence.

Anyhow, my worries with Lipodystrophy / Lypoatrophy can be excessive. Its just that I never seen my face, arms and legs so thin before.

Do ou guys know of any cases of people developing lipoatrophy and the tests coming out negative? Also, aren't there some unlucky individuals that evolve directly to AIDS from the exposure?

Sorry for the persisting questions, but I'm desperate...

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2008, 01:55:03 PM »
lipoatrophy is not HIV specific.

Offline Desperate

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  • Posts: 15
Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 03:57:39 PM »
Dear Rod.

I now that Lipoatrophy can occur in other illnessess. However, from the web research I've done over the past weeks, its stated on a lot of sites that the lipoatrophy that I seem to be presenting (loss of fat on face, buttocks and thinner legs and arms) is the only kind of lipodystrophy that is direclty related to HIV. Thus the reason for my excessive worrying.

Now, I do not see how it would happent so fast, without medications that hace been proven to contribute to the development of the side effect,  and why the tests continue negative.

Is there any logical medical explanation for this, or am I simply going nuts?


Offline Ann

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2008, 06:26:23 AM »
Desperate,

Lipo is caused by the medications used to treat hiv, not hiv itself. You've already been told by your doctors what is causing your weight loss. Listen to them and start eating properly. It's a no-brainer, eh?

Autoimmune diseases do not cause delayed antibody production, although they can cause false positive results on antibody tests. These false positives due to autoimmune issues are usually resolved by Western Blot testing.

You're going to have to accept that you didn't become infected when you went barebacking - this  time. You were lucky, although as a top, you weren't likely to become infected from a one-time incident. However, don't push your luck. Use condoms in future.

You do NOT have hiv. Make sure you read our posting guidelines found in the Welcome Thread, particularly the one that explains how we do not allow people to use this forum to continually question their conclusive negative results.

Once again, you do NOT have hiv. You are conclusively hiv negative. If you cannot accept that, then I suggest you seek out therapy to get to the bottom of your paranoia. We cannot help you with that here.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Desperate

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 04:14:33 PM »
Dear Ainn.

Thank you for your reply.

Just recently i had another sexual encounter with a crossdresser. This time I remembered the condom. Anyhow, I only received oral sex, with condom, and nothing else.

However, I did do some masturbation on the crossdresser and I had a wart on my finger (looks like a fish eye).  My doubts would be, i he ejaculated in my hnad (which I did not remember happening) could i be infected throught this wart? what are the odds?

Thanks

Offline anniebc

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 04:20:12 PM »
Absolutely not...did you read the Welcome thread Ann told you too?, if you did then you would know how HIV is and isn't transmitted.

Again this is not an HIV situation.

Jan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline Ann

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 06:55:05 PM »
Desperate,

I deleted a thread you created in the Lipo forum. If you'd bothered to read the Welcome Thread like you've been asked to, you would know that you are NOT allowed to post in the other forums. Don't do it again or I'll have to give you a time out.

You don't have lipo. Why would you? You don't have hiv and you aren't on hiv medications. As you've been told, it's the MEDS that cause hiv related lipo, not hiv itself.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Desperate

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2008, 08:50:26 PM »
Sorry Ann.

I guess its just anxiety nad nervousness.

I will not do it again.

Offline Desperate

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  • Posts: 15
Re: Delayed Seroconversion?? It can only be.
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2008, 01:36:13 PM »
Dear Ann & other moderators.

I try to conform myself that I really did not cotract HIV in this exposure, but I just can't seem to. The signs are so evident. I still have rashes, headached, fatigue and weakness, and they do not go away. And wether its lipodystrofy or not, I'm visibly losing weigjt in my arrms legs and buttocks, and my face definately looks thinner. I can clearsy see the muscles around my arm for there isn't practically any fat around them. My legs look like toothpicks.

I was thinking that I was somewhat of an abnormal individual for presenting all serocoversion symtons and the tests all coming back negative, even after 3 months. But then, keeping o with the research, even within this site, i've noticed that some people sereconverted and got diagnosed over the 3 month mark .

I fell like hell. Constrantly tired, dehydrated.. It doesn't matter how long i rest, I'm alwasys tired, especially in the afternoon. I've read HIV + only recuperating from these symptons after taking medications.  How can I rule out that these symptoms are nit HIV indicatives hence they only started after my risky encounter??

On October 30th, I will take a viral load test and do not know what to expect. My doctor said she's only giving it to me because she wants to prove to me that I'm negative. But with so many symptons post-encounter, how can i believe?

Also, the viral load test will take over 10 days to get ready, is there any tests Ican take in the meantime? Is a CD4 count test recommended?

Thanks for your support..
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 01:38:14 PM by Desperate »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2008, 02:54:01 PM »
Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Offline Desperate

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 12:48:14 PM »
Dear Rod
 
You guys may give me a timeout if that's what you wish, but  I have to state my point. I am clearly presenting lipodistrophy symtpons. SO why are my tests negative? WE cannot just consider lipodystrophy as side effects from meds when that's clearly not the case. Even within this site there are posts from member who are suffering from lipodistrophy without ever having taken medications.

So maybe I amo going crazy, but I know what is see, especially in regards to my own body.

My only doubt persists. I'f I'm hiv positive, and I'm suffering effects of lipodystrophy from the virus itself, why are my tests coming back negative? I'm not a IV drug user (never have been), not a organ tranplant pacient and never had chimo. Is there any other circunstance in which my window period is extended, or am i one of those rare cases that develop AIDS right after infection?

Just to update, I still have the following symptons:

Muscle aches / joint aches
Arms and legs thinner, loss of fat on face and buttocks
rash all over my trunk area
constant headache
blurred vision sometimes
Weakness / fatigue

All these symptons started and persisted after my sexual exposure 3 months ago.

Thanks for your understanding.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 12:51:22 PM »
Seek professional mental help and see a doctor for your concerns because HIV is not your problem.

Offline Desperate

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2008, 01:12:25 PM »
Dear Rod

Thanks of the advice.

I'm already seeing a psychologist and i will be starting a psychiatrist this week. I sure hope they can help me.

Once again, thanks...

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 04:35:41 PM »
The symptoms of ARS occur early on and then disappear. Nothing you are reporting (and misinterpreting) is in anyway HIV-specific. For instance you're self-diagnosing lipo. Practicing medicine on yourself without a license is a really bad idea.

You're HIV negative. Period. You need to discuss your symptoms with your doctor. Period.

And sort the emotional stuff out with a healthcare professional. We can't help you with that here.

Andy Velez

Offline Desperate

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008, 10:33:28 AM »
Dear Andy

Thank your support.

I know that I'm way beyond paranoia at this point. I may be self diagnosing myself, perhaps. But the lipoatrophy symptons are too clear to be avoided. BVwey thin arms ( i canonly the muscles in my arms, no fat around them), very thin legs (i can see red veins from the top of the leg almost to the foot, also I have lost tissue around the ankles, which is pretty awkward), my butt has also zero fat.

But what's most frightening is my face. I have never seen it so thin.

Everyone s telling me that general weight loss, due to streess can cause this. Since I'm not eating right, i'm losing weight on my arms, legas, face and buttocks as well.. Is this possible? Could I possibly be misinterpreting a general weight loss? The only thing that my weight is practilcally the same as 3 months ago, maximum 2-3 Kg less.

From all the personal research I conducted, facial wasting and pheripheral lipoatrophy are directly associated to HAART treatments.  SO how can I be having it in such a short period?

From your personal experience as HIV specialists, is this common, given the fact that i only had NEG. HIV test results up until now.

Anyhow, today I went to the health clinic to the quantitive PCR my doctor suggested. The first thing the medic asked was, "Which medications are you on"? . I felt like crying. They said this kind of exam is used to monitor HIV after a positive result. They did not understand why my doctor prescribed it to me, after negatve results.

I hope nothing turns out from this.  I feel that my doctor is scared to say to me that I'm HIV+  and is requesting this test so that, if it comes our positive, she can say that I'm a rare case.. etc..

Anyways I'm off to take another HIV test. I don't know why I why i keep on taking them, for the results are always the same. I only want to take it to make sure that I didn't have any antibodies when the viral load test was conducted, which according to everyone I inquired, would be a extremely rare case to show up any virus without antibodies after 3 months of negative testing.

This test will be with 106 days ( 15 weeks post exposure).

Let's see..

Thanks..


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2008, 10:53:53 AM »
You're still busy self-diagnosing and ignoring whatever has been said to you. We've done what we can do for you.

If you continue to come back with more of the same you are going to get a Time Out.

Good luck with sorting out whatever is going on. It all has NOTHING to do with HIV.
Andy Velez

Offline Desperate

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2008, 04:02:30 PM »
Dear Andy..

Thank you for your ongoing patience..

The test result i did today (15 weeks) just came out.. guess the resut??


N-E-G-A-T-I-V-E again...

Perhaps I'm obsseing over this, but my weight loss is clerly visible on the arms and legs.  I just don't know what to think anymore.

I'm starting with a psychiatrist today, so maybe he can help me...

Are these Ag/AC Architect Abbot Assays as reliable as the Elisa tests? they are certainly way more expensive here in my country. :-)

Thanks for the support...

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2008, 04:12:37 PM »
You're HIV negative. That's no surprise to me.

Discuss your physical concerns with your doctor(s). As for your unwarranted concern about HIV, that's something to discuss with a mental healthcare professional. We can't help you with that.

You've gotten whatever we can do for you here. There's nothing more to discuss about your HIV status. You're negative. Period. End of story.

Consider yourself warned. If you come back with more of the same worries you're going to get timed out.
Andy Velez

Offline Desperate

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2008, 01:56:27 PM »
Hello Moderators

I'm sorry to disturb you guys again.

I just got my viral load result which was as follows:

Technic: b-DNA
Kit: HIV 3.0 RNA
Minimum detection limit: 50 copies p/ml
Maximum detection limit 500 000 copies p/ml

RESULT: Copies < Min. Limit

According to the specialists at the clinic, this could be considered as undectable viral load.

The problem is sojme symptons still persist, sapecially the lipo I believe to have. My arms and legs look thinner and thinner every day, as does my face and buttocks..

I'm pretty sure it has to be HIV. Thus, is there any more specific test I could take to certify if I am or not infected?

Please help.. I had to take medical leave from work and I'm going crazy...

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2008, 02:17:01 PM »
I am sorry about your symptoms. I hope you find the answers you need to treat them.

However, you do not have HIV. And continuing to assume that you do will, in fact, hinder you from finding out exactly what is causing your problems.

You have taken the most specific tests on the market for HIV. You do not have it. I highly encourage you to take leave of this site and find the real source for your concerns. I suspect you will be further encouraged in that direction by the moderating staff here.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2008, 06:10:33 PM »
Desp,

You don't have hiv. Go see a doctor about your symptoms. You have ruled hiv out as a cause now you need to find out what, if anything is going on. It's not hiv. That's for sure.

I'm giving you that time out you've been warned about. Do not attempt to create a new account to get around your time out because if you do, you will be permanently banned.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Desperate

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2008, 06:24:45 AM »
Dear moderators.

I'll try not to obsess over a disease that I probably do not have, so I don't get banned again. However, I just wanted to know from the members in the forum if anyone here tested positive after a 3 month negative test result on normal circumstances (not an HIV drug user, didn't have chemo, etc)?

The reason I ask is because I still can't forget this. I had a recent negative result 4 months prior to exposure, and in a few days I'll have the 5 month test. I plan to stop at 6 months.

So if anybody could answer this doubt, I would really appreciate it. Even though I even had a PCR test with undetectable result, I still can't put it behind me. I have already sought out professional mental help. Hopefully, I'll get through this.

Thanks for the attention.


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2008, 09:03:18 AM »
Under normal circumstances and excepting the circumstances you have referred to, a negative at 13 weeks is absolutely reliable.

Further testing on your part is unnecessary but I can see it's a waste of time for me to even bother saying that. By keeping this concern alive you just feed your fears. That's your choice. Certainly all you are going to do is to continue to collect negative results.
Andy Velez

Offline Desperate

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2009, 10:33:47 AM »
Dear Moderators

First of all, I want to thank you for the support and patience you1ve had torwards my case. I'm getting ready to do my 6 month test to try and put an end to this once and for all.

I do have one doubt though. Throught this whole 6 month nightmare, I have gained over 10 kg. But it only seems to be noticiable on the stomach region. I had thouhgt that it was lypodystrophy (abdominal fat accumulation) but my pchychiatrist said it is because of the anti depressive and ani psychotic medication Im taking. I don't know if the name is the same as we have here in Brazl, but the medications are Rivotril, Zyprexa and Paroxetina.

I want to know, is it possible that I'm just gaining weight because of the medications, or could I have lypodystrophy, maybe not from HIV, but from some diabetes like condition?

I still think my arms and legs are very tin, but I seem to be the only one noticing this.

Please let me know your thoughts on this issue so that I can  put my mind at ease,

Thanks in advance.

Desperate

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2009, 10:54:40 AM »
You already know our thoughts. We're not going to indulge you any further on this issue by continuing to discuss the details you are reporting. The only reason I am not giving you a time out right now is because you are about to re-test. Hopefully that result will put an end to this obsessive drama of yours.

You are HIV negative and your negative at 6 months is a foregone conclusion.
Andy Velez

Offline Desperate

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2009, 02:41:06 PM »
Dear Andy & other moderators.

Hope you are all well.

I went today for my 6 month test and the result already came out. Negative as Andy had predicted.

Today, I just want to say thank you to all the moderators who had the patience to deal with my paranoia. I know now that hiv is not my problem, and I'l be working really hard to find out what's bothering me.

Thus, from the bottom of my heart i just want to say THANK YOU to all. You guys are truly angels for the wonderful work you are doing here.

My most sincere thanks to all...

Sincerely.

Desperate

Offline Desperate

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2010, 02:56:09 PM »
Dear Sirs

First of all, I would like to thank you for the wondeful work you are doing.

As you can see below, I have consulted you in the past :

Its been over a year in a half since my unprocted exposure and after more negative tests, I'm still convinced I'm infected. Why?? Lipodystrophy.

From my last post, I believed to be developing lipodystrophy onlya few months past the exposure and without meds, which seemed highly unlikely.

However, the situation hasn't improved. My arms and legs are still extremely thin, as are the face and buttocks. In the other hand, i have gained a lot of weight around my stomach area (I'm currently weighing 67 Kgs). Seems to me like HIV associated lipodystrophy, for it only started to happen after the exposure.

Thus my doubt today is that throughout a lot of forums, this one included, i have seen reports of people in my situation, with negative tests and lipodystrophy symptoms.

Could we all be crazy, or maybe the researches in the HIV area are overlooking this possibility? I'm not the first to report this nor will I will I be the last.

Can it be just coincidence??

Please let me know your thoughts on this issue.

Sincerely.

Desperate

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2010, 03:06:29 PM »
Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result orno-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Offline Andy Velez

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  • Posts: 24,384
Re: Delayed Seroconversion?
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2010, 04:34:28 PM »
You're HIV negative. Period. End of story.

You're long overdue for a Time Out from the site for returning here repeatedly when we know you are HIV negative, no matter what your fears and mind are telling you to the contrary.

You've had a Time Out previously because of this kind of compulsive behavior here. So I am giving you a second one, this time for 56 days. Get yourself some professional help. And don't make the mistake of trying to get around the Time Out by creating a new name. We'll spot it right off. If you try that it will get you permanently banned from the site.

Get yourself the professional help you need.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 08:39:28 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

 


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