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Author Topic: Suicide as selfishness...  (Read 5427 times)

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Offline Boo Radley

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Suicide as selfishness...
« on: December 31, 2009, 06:03:12 AM »
This should probably be in "Mental Health" but I'm posting here and ask the mods to delete or lock the thread instead of moving it.  I hope you understand my reasons.  Also, the issue is relevant to more people than just us deranged maniacs haunting that forum (POOR TASTE JOKE ALERT!).

In another thread a tangential discussion about suicide being a selfish act surfaced.  That may be true but it indicates to me some or many of the posters have no clue about the abject despair which drives most to think of suicide.  A suicidal person is often no more selfish than a starving person desperately looking for sustenance.  If one is so distraught he/she sees death as a release she/he is usually not able to think about much more than ending the crushing pain.  Not everyone who commits suicide is depressed but it often plays a great role.  Unrelenting depression frequently obscures all other thoughts and considerations.  

As joe (killfoile) and others have explained depression is often a physical illness.  I didn't know why I was so sad so often when I was a child -- it happened.  One of my earliest memories is sitting at the bottom of the stairs listening to my mother play Beethoven's Fur Elise and breaking down into sobs so loud Mom heard and came to try to comfort me.  I couldn't explain why that tune made me so distraught but it did.   As I was growing up Mom and Dad usually told me to stop feeling sorry for myself when I wanted to stay in bed and never wake up (I didn't tell them the latter part...).   To her dying day Mom denied ever experiencing depression.  Three years after Mom's death my step-mother died and I went to California to help Dad deal with the situation.   One day he recounted how he and we 4 children came home one afternoon (my twin and I were about 3) and even before he opened the front door he smelled the gas.  Mom was unconscious in the kitchen and taken to the emergency room and released after several days... and that was the last time anyone mentioned it again until 2001.  What struck me most was after Dad told me the details he became quiet and, choking back tears, asked angrily "What if I'd been smoking a cigarette?"  

As one who's played the "suicide card" but didn't have the decency to die (2007, in the distant future, didn't even count) I tried to explain that someone who wants to die rarely thinks rationally -- the sole objective is to end the pain.   I know my mother would have died 1000 deaths rather than hurt any of us but the desperation to end the agony made her irrational.  Natural gas does indeed have a tendency to ignite explosively when the ratio is right but she was a 50s Sylvia Plath (although she didn't compose poems) trying to end her life. And natural gas was quite cheap in Louisiana then, which may very well have mattered to someone who never outgrew the Great Depression.  

As for legalized suicide, assisted suicide, living wills, hospice, 55th term abortions, eugenics -- I support them all.  I think a rather narrowly-focused thread concerning one person's circumstances with reference to suicide (suicidal ideations as my psych says... rather too frequently) isn't the best place to discuss these issues.  Harking back to the night I inconvenienced everyone for hours with no payoff I think someone posted something along the same lines -- if someone wants to off himself let him. Decrease surplus population.  I agree of course but again suggest such discussions occur without reference to individuals but in a broader context.  As misanthropic as I am I'd prefer not to help relative strangers justify their self-destruction.  Honestly I'd rather not have any involvement unless the potential suicide was someone I knew well enough to know the circumstances.  Keeping someone alive who is in pain, physical or emotional, solely because medical technology can isn't sufficiently compelling.  

Back to the selfishness of suicide... well, yes,it can be a very selfish act or appear to be but I don't believe too many of the "they'll all be sorry after I'm dead" contingent end up dying unless there are other issues which help the person go through with it.  That's so totally out of the picture it's not a very accurate gauge.  A person considering self-destruction isn't often thinking of anyone else -- she/he is selfish.  So spit on the grave if it irks you so much...

Thuth thpake TharaThuthtra.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 06:25:07 AM by Boo Radley »
String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 06:42:08 AM »
In another thread a tangential discussion about suicide being a selfish act surfaced.  That may be true but it indicates to me some or many of the posters have no clue about the abject despair which drives most to think of suicide.\

LOL, Oh really...  Just because we didn't announce our suicide attempts on a public forum or felt despair for simply being banned due to our own actions does not mean we don't know abject despair?

Now if you want to say you are of the opinion that suicide is not a selfish act, then just say so.  That way I could disagree with you and leave it at that.  I always thought of selfishness as not taking others feelings into consideration.  My wife and kids walking in the door finding my brains all over the back wall because I lost my fucking job due to health issues and feel utterly depressed for no known ryhme or reason is selfish in my book...  just a messy, easy way out for me I guess.. leave it to them to piece together the answers and wonder what they could have done differently...

C'mon Boo don't make this one of those right to die issues because it's really not....

Edited for improper words .... verb agreement issues.. punctuation... hwoever I left the mispelled stuff in there!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:10:09 AM by skeebo1969 »
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline carousel

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 06:49:45 AM »
In the same way, I would not have wanted to enter into a conversation on the wrongs or rights of suicide when you had your incident a couple of years ago, Boo, I don't think that today is necessarily the best of days to get into this subject.

Some may want to discuss the subject in the abstract, but for me anyway, when someone comes to this site seeking help for their reality, I think people's energies would be better spent offering support rather than engaging with this thread.

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 08:13:45 AM »
LOL, Oh really...  Just because we didn't announce our suicide attempts on a public forum or felt despair for simply being banned due to our own actions does not mean we don't know abject despair?

You reduce me to one night in 2007 and claim that as my sole familiarity with despair and hopelessness? 

sadtom, I don't know or really care what your issue(s) is(are) with me but could we just get to the meat of things, as Liz Taylor brayed so often in WAOVW? instead of insulting me in your oh-so-imitable way?    I mean, I love you, dude.   But not in THAT way, just friends.  I've defended you when idiots were braying about you as a parent or non-upstanding citizen or junkie or whatever the meaningless gossip/bs was about.   

Now if you want to say you are of the opinion that suicide is not a sefless act, then just say so.  That way I could disagree with you and leave it at that.  I always thought of selfless as not taking others feelings into consideration.  My wife and kids walking in the door finding my brains all over the back wall because I lost my fucking job due to health issues and feel utterly depressed for no known ryhme or reason is selfish in my book...  just a messy, easy way out for me I guess.. leave it to them to piece together the answers and wonder what they could have done differently...

Excuse my pedantry but you're confusing "selfless" and "selfish" -- a selfless person would definitely consider the effect of his/her actions on others.  A selfish person thinks only about himself.  Selflessness doesn't apply unilaterally, if at all, to suicide in my humble opinion.    Maybe a situation in which an "accidental" death would provide survivors with insurance or other benefits. 

The suicide scenario you depict says more about you & your probable motives than about why people commit suicide.  Shit, tom, I promised Charlotte if I ever used one of her guns I'd walk out to the 2nd floor balcony and stand facing the building to minimize the mess.  Her dogs would clean the sidewalk on the ground in 10 minutes.  I'm so anal-compulsive in 1999 I had Eudora email a message to Charlotte about 20 hours after I swallowed 400mg of klonopin (what a fucking dope!  if only i shot up smack!).  The dogs had to be walked, fed, and Cookie's glucose level measured, plus the cats.  I woke up about an hour after the message was sent and immediately wrote another message claiming it was a bad joke... which it was since I woke up. 

Sorry, skeebo, you really have no clue if all you can come up with is gory depictions of your own hatefulness (oh, yeah, suicide can be quite hateful but until you depicted an archetypal example I wasn't going there) and your claims my beliefs stem from some night in 2007 are just rude.  I'm sorry if my mention of that night bothers you but you know what a self-aggrandizing P. T. Barnum of a bastard I am.  I manipulate people like claymation figures, indifferent to their fates.

Oh, yeah, you're aware I've repeatedly violated the TOS because a technical constraint allows evil people like me to avoid detection until my prosaic babble (TM) gives me away, usually before my 3rd post.  I remember your gratuitous reference when I mentioned the vocal homophobia of some Reggae musicians -- as if it was OK for me to sneak in until I displeased you.  If you can't recall it I'll find it for you.

Now
C'mon Boo don't  make this one of those right to die issues because it's really not....

Huh?  Honey, you been smoking Drano?  "Right to die" is part of "right to live" -- in more enlightened countries assisted suicide, after thorough examination, is recognized as a basic human right, in somewhat the same way as hospice care. 

String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2009, 08:44:17 AM »
In the same way, I would not have wanted to enter into a conversation on the wrongs or rights of suicide when you had your incident a couple of years ago, Boo, I don't think that today is necessarily the best of days to get into this subject.

So can you tell me when I might mention it?  You and others treat me as if I was just fucking around for the hell of it.  Thanks.  Should anyone who has ever embarrassed himself with a failed (FAKED obviously because I ain't dead!) suicide attempt, I mean incident, lock it up in a dark, skeleton-filled closet and pretend it didn't happen?  Sounds like a good plan.  "Wrong" and "right" are such limiting terms. 

In the same way, if I truthfully believed such a conversation should be avoided I probably would not have spent valuable time posting to such a thread.

Some may want to discuss the subject in the abstract, but for me anyway, when someone comes to this site seeking help for their reality, I think people's energies would be better spent offering support rather than engaging with this thread.


I'm very sorry but the subject came up in one individual's thread.  If you check you'll see I asked that the abstract(ish...) discussion occur elsewhere.  I didn't suggest we ignore the original poster's thread -- actually I asked people to (re)focus on the original thread & move this discussion elsewhere.  But you think we should have done... what?  Posted messages about splattering our brains on the newly mauve-painted walls in the individual's thread?  Gotcha.

In the same way I refuse to hide my HIV status or faggosity I stopped trying to completely hide the depression that's been part of my entire life -- I'm talking pre-natal blues, babe.   I'm sorry if my pitiable grasping for attention of any sort bothers you but I'm only an incident a couple of years ago. 

Guess it's time to break out the lock...
String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 09:06:15 AM »
You reduce me to one night in 2007 and claim that as my sole familiarity with despair and hopelessness? 

sadtom, I don't know or really care what your issue(s) is(are) with me but could we just get to the meat of things, as Liz Taylor brayed so often in WAOVW? instead of insulting me in your oh-so-imitable way?    I mean, I love you, dude.   But not in THAT way, just friends.  I've defended you when idiots were braying about you as a parent or non-upstanding citizen or junkie or whatever the meaningless gossip/bs was about.   

Excuse my pedantry but you're confusing "selfless" and "selfish" -- a selfless person would definitely consider the effect of his/her actions on others.  A selfish person thinks only about himself.  Selflessness doesn't apply unilaterally, if at all, to suicide in my humble opinion.    Maybe a situation in which an "accidental" death would provide survivors with insurance or other benefits. 

The suicide scenario you depict says more about you & your probable motives than about why people commit suicide.  Shit, tom, I promised Charlotte if I ever used one of her guns I'd walk out to the 2nd floor balcony and stand facing the building to minimize the mess.  Her dogs would clean the sidewalk on the ground in 10 minutes.  I'm so anal-compulsive in 1999 I had Eudora email a message to Charlotte about 20 hours after I swallowed 400mg of klonopin (what a fucking dope!  if only i shot up smack!).  The dogs had to be walked, fed, and Cookie's glucose level measured, plus the cats.  I woke up about an hour after the message was sent and immediately wrote another message claiming it was a bad joke... which it was since I woke up. 

Sorry, skeebo, you really have no clue if all you can come up with is gory depictions of your own hatefulness (oh, yeah, suicide can be quite hateful but until you depicted an archetypal example I wasn't going there) and your claims my beliefs stem from some night in 2007 are just rude.  I'm sorry if my mention of that night bothers you but you know what a self-aggrandizing P. T. Barnum of a bastard I am.  I manipulate people like claymation figures, indifferent to their fates.

Oh, yeah, you're aware I've repeatedly violated the TOS because a technical constraint allows evil people like me to avoid detection until my prosaic babble (TM) gives me away, usually before my 3rd post.  I remember your gratuitous reference when I mentioned the vocal homophobia of some Reggae musicians -- as if it was OK for me to sneak in until I displeased you.  If you can't recall it I'll find it for you.

Huh?  Honey, you been smoking Drano?  "Right to die" is part of "right to live" -- in more enlightened countries assisted suicide, after thorough examination, is recognized as a basic human right, in somewhat the same way as hospice care. 



Boo, I don't give a damn who thinks what about my parenting and I definitely never needed anyone to come to my defense... you know why, cuz I just really don't give a fuck.  One of the reasons I was raised by a step father was because my real daddy offed himself one night due to a tax debt...  what a fucking waste my friend and yes I think it's selfish. 

You can take your long winded ramblings of mumbo jumbo and off topic banter and twist them into different issues like a clown does with balloons now....

If someone wants to kill themselves go fucking do it...  it's definitely their right, just quit talking about it.  Is that a better response Boo?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 09:50:08 AM »
Gee, Tom, your father killed himself.  I'm truly sorry.  I can't imagine what that must be like.   This is the first time I've heard about this unpleasant part of your life.  Maybe if I'd known I might have changed a few words but my rambling off topic points remain the same, albeit with a better understanding of how your views were formed. 

Your experience & the unique issues you and your family dealt with clearly affected your beliefs on this subject, and I wouldn't deny your life must have been rough at times or during long periods.  I don't know. 

Although we all might have been better off if Mom had died that day (better yet, Dad lit a match as he opened the door) she didn't.  Wanna trade???????????????   

I forgot or never knew why you were initially banned from AM but as the western world's most popular fictional character, Jesus, said, "judge not lest ye be judged."    I know you don't give a damn about what I or anyone thinks and don't need my support when others judge you.  Guess what?  Your opinion and support are jack pepper cheese to me, too. 

Now if you need to get in your last manly, terse judgments go for it.  For the sake of world peace you're on my ignore list at 5PM today.

Happy New Year!

 
String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 10:12:40 AM »

Now if you need to get in your last manly, terse judgments go for it.  For the sake of world peace you're on my ignore list at 5PM today.

Happy New Year!

 

Is that at 5pm or til 5pm?  I'm too lazy to reread your post or move my eyes up to see what I just quoted above....
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 12:09:09 PM »
In another thread a tangential discussion about suicide being a selfish act surfaced.
At first I was going to come into this thread and discuss this issue (since it was my comment that stirred the pot over there); but it seems you don't really want a discussion.

I can't imagine what that must be like.
Wow. :o And you moved this "discussion" out of that thread out of kindness to help that member and for respect to his feelings; but you'll come over here and rag on a different member and rip at his feelings. Dude, either be helpful or don't. ::) You're sounding kinda bi-polary to me. LOL

Maybe if I'd known I might have changed a few words but my rambling off topic points remain the same, albeit with a better understanding of how your views were formed. 
I wish you would have changed some words so we could have discussed the topic since a lot of what you have written really doesn't make much sense. Also, a lot of what you have written is so hateful that you're surely not the one to objectively discuss this topic.

Just like in that other thread, I suggest therapy/counseling to help you with your issues.

This should probably be in "Mental Health" but I'm posting here and ask the mods to delete or lock the thread instead of moving it.  I hope you understand my reasons.  Also, the issue is relevant to more people than just us deranged maniacs haunting that forum
My vote is to LOCK the thread.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


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Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 01:16:56 PM »
Dear All,

Suicide is in general a highly sensitive subject and perhaps even more so at this time of the year. This is not the only thread in which it has come up.

I just want to urge all to keep the conversation civil and as non-reactive as possible. Rather than being critical or arguing positions, this is a good time in which to keep mutual support in mind as people air their thoughts and feelings.

Thanks for your cooperation.
Andy Velez

Offline Joe K

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2009, 08:53:08 PM »
The concept of selfishness, in relation to someone contemplating suicide, is almost non existent. To suggest, that someone on the verge of suicide, would be capable of reasoned cognitive thought, is misguided at best and mean spirited at worst. You can never truly ascertain the motives of any person suffering from mental health issues and to be honest, this thread has little to do with any theoretical discussion of suicide.

What I see, instead, during this season of hope and peace, are attacks on other members and rambling thoughts, which have produced an acid environment and so no further discussion can be possible. Given this truth, I ask that this thread be locked.

The holidays are an extremely trying time for many people and I am disgusted that this thread has been posted, on one of the most fatal nights of the year.

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2010, 04:54:18 PM »
I started a new thread because the discussion in a personal thread seemed out of place.  Apparently there is no place it can be discussed.

Quote
Quote from: Boo Radley on Yesterday at 08:50:08 am
I can't imagine what that must be like.

Wow. Shocked And you moved this "discussion" out of that thread out of kindness to help that member and for respect to his feelings; but you'll come over here and rag on a different member and rip at his feelings. Dude, either be helpful or don't. Roll Eyes You're sounding kinda bi-polary to me. LOL

My statement was not meant to "rag" on skeebo -- I cannot imagine what losing a parent to suicide, especially as a child, would be like.  I'm sorry if it was generally misinterpreted.   I doubt skeebo would deny his father's suicide played an important role in formation of his beliefs on the subject.  My statements reacting to his depiction of blowing his brains out so his family would all have the pleasure of seeing the result were tacit agreement he could be selfish or, as originally stated, his desire to end his life prevented him from even thinking about such matters.  (FYI, my diagnosis is dysthymia, not bi-polar disorder)

leatherman, maybe you're unaware of the background but skeebo's declaration, not even insinuation, that an unfortunate episode in 2007 was the sole basis of my beliefs is an insult, plain and simple. 

My first post wasn't intended to insult anyone but the skeebo's response was insulting and I found carousel's suggestion my "incident" precluded my posting about suicide useless. 

Quote from: killfoile
...to be honest, this thread has little to do with any theoretical discussion of suicide...
What I see, instead, during this season of hope and peace, are attacks on other members and rambling thoughts, which have produced an acid environment and so no further discussion can be possible. Given this truth, I ask that this thread be locked.

And joe, I do apologize for mentioning your name without prior approval.  As AM's voice of "truth" and resident expert on depression your wishes should of course be honored immediately.  I'm sorry my unilateral attacks on other members during this season of hope and peace and rampant commercialism upset you.  Thanks for your support.

String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2010, 05:42:49 PM »

My statement was not meant to "rag" on skeebo -- I cannot imagine what losing a parent to suicide, especially as a child, would be like.  I'm sorry if it was generally misinterpreted.   I doubt skeebo would deny his father's suicide played an important role in formation of his beliefs on the subject.  My statements reacting to his depiction of blowing his brains out so his family would all have the pleasure of seeing the result were tacit agreement he could be selfish or, as originally stated, his desire to end his life prevented him from even thinking about such matters.  (FYI, my diagnosis is dysthymia, not bi-polar disorder)


Man don't sweat it...  I was too young to even remember what the guy looked like.  The only thing I suffered from was not being able to participate in the conversations that my sister and brother would have on how big an asshole real dad was. 

I also assumed because of the other thread, that was the particular frame of mind for the subject in this thread.   If you throw out the word suicide because you might lose your house or simply because you are having a tough time of it I think that is selfish and you are choosing the easy way out.



Oh and Thanks... JOE
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2010, 06:17:17 PM »
I've seen many suicide results and the toll it takes on others and yes I see it as a selfish and inconsiderate act. "Medicial assisted suicide is a whole different story."

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2010, 06:58:19 PM »
Why do I think of Death
As a friend?
It is because he is a scatterer,
He scatters the human frame
The nerviness and the great pain,
Throws it on the fresh fresh air
And now it is nowhere
Only sweet Death does this,
Sweet Death, Kind Death,
Of all the gods you are the best.


                                           --- Stevie Smith

I think there can be a point where one's Self is overwhelmed by despair, by pain, by everything but the desire to MAKE IT STOP.  And when one loses the Self how can one be selfish?

But there are often other ways to cure the underlying problem which will also MAKE IT STOP.  Leaving is not the only answer to most problems.

... and is it necessarily true that all potential suicides are beyond self?  If not, how is a thrid party -- especially one mediated by internet -- to determine which is at hand?  Isn't a diverse approach better when facing uncertainty?

Dear Boo, I hope you are personally well.  There is something to cherish in each of your posts -- sometimes consequential; sometimes riffingly not  (this season of hope and peace and rampant commercialism ).  And it matters not which of your multiple forums personalities('?) has posted it.

A
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
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Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2010, 06:59:42 PM »
I've seen many suicide results and the toll it takes on others and yes I see it as a selfish and inconsiderate act. "Medicial assisted suicide is a whole different story."


Have you ever been suicidal, Rod?  Have you ever been so depressed getting out of bed was a major accomplishment?  Have you ever gone through days, weeks, or months of feeling sad, useless, a burden to everyone, and a worthless piece of shite?  Begun crying for no conscious reason in public or while driving or sitting in your office?  That's what some people experience and after so long all they want to do is stop it. 

In the Netherlands (I think...) and a very few other countries clinically depressed individuals can qualify for medically assisted suicide after meeting the criteria.   Is that less selfish and inconsiderate?  If it's OK for a terminally ill person to seek assisted suicide why isn't it OK for someone with severe, treatment resistant schizophrenia to seek the same help?     

Obviously my beliefs are based on my experience with depression and maybe I should have been very clear about that from the start.  People kill themselves for other reasons and, for example, a gay kid hanging himself because he can't take the ridicule of peers and even family any more is tragic but is it selfish?  People commit suicide on the spur of the moment and might be saved if they reached out for help or just tried to get through another day when they'd awake to realize there are alternatives.  I suppose suicide is selfish in some situations or on some levels but most suicides don't just suddenly think "I'll jump off this roof since I'm 20 stories high" without prior thoughts.

I don't advocate suicide as another option in dealing with life's problems because many times the problems are transient.  Losing your job, splitting up with your spouse, losing your Yale scholarship are all situations that can be very difficult but suicide is a drastic over-reaction.   People kill themselves in such situations, however, and it's tragic and probably could have been prevented but I still find it difficult to label each person selfish and inconsiderate -- it's tragic.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2010, 07:14:16 PM »
My beliefs are from seeing kids that have found a parent or a sibling that has committed suicide and cleaning up the mess after someone committed suicide. That's enough for labeling suicide selfish and inconsiderate.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2010, 07:17:14 PM »
Nothing like black/white thinking, that's for sure.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Joe K

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2010, 11:39:19 AM »
The only voice I represent is mine and I have never presented myself as an "expert" on anything. I shared my experience with depression, because I believed that others would find comfort in having the disease of depression, discussed in detail, if for no other reason, to assure readers that what they were experiencing was real. I saw a need and offered a possible solution, in the form of information and personal experience. The reason I asked, that this thread be locked, was the discussion had deteriorated away from any meaningful conclusion. If you disagreed with my request, then just say it and save me the pandering comments regarding myself and my intentions. And to be clear, for me, the holidays are a time of hope and peace, because that is how I celebrate them.

My only intention here is to urge people to reject the use of labels. in ascribing specific intentions, to anyone who suffers from a mental health disorder. When someone comes to this site, we offer help and support, not comments comparing miseries, or worse, degrading a poster by insinuating that our experience is more important than theirs. Yet, so many people have no such problem, when it comes to labeling the actions of a person, suffering from depression. I know the disease can appear confusing, but the end result is always the same. If you are not the person experiencing the depression, you have no concept what is going through that persons mind and as such, any conjecture on your part, is merely speculation.

For people, who do not live with depression, it is often easier to label the motives of someone who commits suicide, if for no other reason, as an attempt to find sanity amongst the sorrow. Sadly, sanity has little to do with depression and all I ask is that you use compassion when discussing a suicide, because this is one of those times, when words can cripple a survivor, even if unintended.

Offline elf

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2010, 12:04:09 PM »
 ???
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 12:07:18 PM by elf »

Offline elf

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2010, 12:06:43 PM »
religious mode on
I think Christ does not want us to kill ourselves, he wants us to suffer till the very end
religious mode off


Sometimes I think a kill-pill would come in handy in cases where there's no way out (plane about to crash), but...
be a man and face the suffering thing:  go see a movie called THE MIST, if they hadn't committed a suicide, they would have lived...  :o


PS
In cases of severe depression, people don't think about killing themselves: they just do it, so you cannot speak of ''selfishness'' because people with a psychiatric diagnosis are not responsible for their acts.

I REALLY WANT TO LIVE.
AS FOR PAIN AND SUFFERING, I'VE GOTTEN USED TO THEM. DON'T FEEL THEM ANYMORE.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 12:13:12 PM by elf »

Offline StacheBC

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2010, 01:38:23 PM »
People usually don't wake up and say "I can't cope with life anymore... " and commit suicide.
Not much different from other illnesses, like Alcoholism, drug additions, most people that commit suicide suffer in silence sometimes for many years. Although unlike a drug addict that many times one can hit rock bottom and realize that they need help... or make it clear to others around them that they need help. Sometimes putting a suicidal thought into action works the very first time it is executed... and there is no way to reverse it.

The idea that it's a selfish act in IMO only perpetuates the notion that people that might be having suicidal thoughts should not seek help. Since they could very well be a mother or a father with small children, where even admitting to their health care provider or loved ones that they are in fact having suicidal thoughts, could be seen as "But how dare you have such thoughts... what about your children!!". Does not help the issue.

Suicidal thoughts can be cased by several underlying factors. From abuse one suffered at different stages of their lives (child abuse, rape, war etc), certain medication one might be taking, years of depression to just name a few. Yet to the ones on the outside it might be "Ohhh he had too much credit card debt.... " and sometimes things aren't black and white like that.

Taking a snapshot of the suicide aftermath and calling it selfish act is simplistic at best.
You can take the most together person you know, put them on certain medication (that as a side effect causes suicidal thoughts) or put them thought a traumatic experience and they can become suicidal... and in many cases not seek help because they are just being "selfish"... if they were strong they would not have such thoughts.

All I can say is if anyone starts to have suicidal thoughts, they should seek help, because there is a way out... there is a light at the end of the tunnel. The problem is a lot more common than the persons afflicted by these thoughts think... it's not a sign of weakness or selfishness.
A little more kindness and understanding on the problem... and less labels of the aftermath will go a long away to prevent the outcome. That can destroy lives.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2010, 03:51:06 PM »
It's selfishness to commit suicide where kids or anyone else will find your body. Think of the physiological  trauma that you would inflict on others.

Offline Trace67

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2010, 05:12:34 PM »
My biological father committed suicide at 40. Honestly, I cannot say that there are days when I am just overjoyed with everything about my existence and sometimes its seems like more of a struggle to keep on going. However, I think about my parents and friends and the ramifications imposed on them and then I continue to fight. I believe that depression, suicide, etc is often more of a biological and genetic link rather than environmental most of the time!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2010, 05:29:51 PM »
It's selfishness to commit suicide where kids or anyone else will find your body. Think of the physiological  trauma that you would inflict on others.

(aside from the fact that you're repeating yourself)

So if I drive to a public park and call 911 and inform them that I'm blowing my brains out with a gun and tell them exactly where to find the car then it's OK?  I'm sure the police have seen worse and won't be traumatized. And yeah, by the way a guy in my local support group did exactly that scenario a couple of years ago.

There are plenty of scenarios I could invent to get around your faux concern with this issue.  It's no more traumatizing than a married man who sucks cock, gets AIDS, then has to tell their kids as he's perched on a hospital bed with 1 t-cell and PCP now is it?  That's life.

But beyond all that, your typical simplistic thinking paradigm doesn't seem to be able comprehend that someone that is suicidal and has severe mental health issues isn't going to think of how what they do in terms of suicide is going to effect everyone else, so your repetitive statements are ultimately nothing more than tedious BS.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 05:31:33 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2010, 06:31:03 PM »
(aside from the fact that you're repeating yourself)

So if I drive to a public park and call 911 and inform them that I'm blowing my brains out with a gun and tell them exactly where to find the car then it's OK?  I'm sure the police have seen worse and won't be traumatized. And yeah, by the way a guy in my local support group did exactly that scenario a couple of years ago.

There are plenty of scenarios I could invent to get around your faux concern with this issue.  It's no more traumatizing than a married man who sucks cock, gets AIDS, then has to tell their kids as he's perched on a hospital bed with 1 t-cell and PCP now is it?  That's life.

But beyond all that, your typical simplistic thinking paradigm doesn't seem to be able comprehend that someone that is suicidal and has severe mental health issues isn't going to think of how what they do in terms of suicide is going to effect everyone else, so your repetitive statements are ultimately nothing more than tedious BS.
Well like you've had experience. Suicide is selfish and inconsiderate of others. You don't believe it has an effect on Policemen, Firefighters and EMT's. Just go ask them if it doesn't effect them.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2010, 06:36:20 PM »

But beyond all that, your typical simplistic thinking paradigm doesn't seem to be able comprehend that someone that is suicidal and has severe mental health issues isn't going to think of how what they do in terms of suicide is going to effect everyone else, so your repetitive statements are ultimately nothing more than tedious BS.

The scenario(thread) that this topic derived from has nothing to do with severe mental illness, hence why some here feel that the situation is selfish.  Someone wants to blow their brains out because they're use to paying the mortgage without their partners help is selfish...  killing yourself because you can't buy your partner that fancy new ipod for Christmas is pure bullshit.  Suffering from situational depression hardly constitutes killing one self IMO.

Simplistic? By all means yes....  Perhaps the topic should be changed to, If a person is not in their right mind is suicide selfish.

Look up Chris Henry.  He and his fiance got into an argument after looking at engagement rings.  She tried to drive off in their pickup and Chris jumped in the back.  He was heard screaming at her that if she did not stop the truck he would jump out the back and kill himself....  she didn't stop.  Mr. Henry left behind 3 sons and a fiance (is she still called that?) who will blame herself for his actions for the rest of her life....  

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2010, 07:01:20 PM »
Someone wants to blow their brains out because they're use to paying the mortgage without their partners help is selfish...  killing yourself because you can't buy your partner that fancy new ipod for Christmas is pure bullshit.  Suffering from situational depression hardly constitutes killing one self IMO.

Is it too much to ask that some of our long standing members here bother to click on someone's old posts and read them for proper context?  If you'd done that in the other thread you'd have seen that the thread's author has more serious issues than what you just tried to state.  You know, life isn't instant Jello and either is a message board about teh AIDS.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 07:04:25 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2010, 07:05:20 PM »
Well like you've had experience. Suicide is selfish and inconsiderate of others. You don't believe it has an effect on Policemen, Firefighters and EMT's. Just go ask them if it doesn't effect them.

That's their job -- like being in the military.  If they can't handle such situations they should collect garbage for a living.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2010, 07:09:21 PM »

  Your right, all that other stuff also was not introduced in his initial post either... I make instant jello the easy way, you can add all the fruit you like to the mix.  In the end it's still just a cheap desert.  Like I said look up Chris Henry if you want to find an example where suicide is plain selfish...  15 minutes prior he was planning on spending the rest of his life with his college sweetheart.  Then you can look up his pro career and see that he was always a self centered asshole.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2010, 07:19:11 PM »
That's their job -- like being in the military.  If they can't handle such situations they should collect garbage for a living.
Really, like you've been a police officer, fighter or an EMT or ever were in the military.

Offline Lisa

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2010, 07:19:11 PM »
Dearest beloved Boo,

I remember the night well, but I really must disagree with your characterization of "misanthrope", as this is patently not the case.

I do not see this consideration as either selfish or otherwise. When one is in such considerable anguish, it is difficult to see beyond the next few hours, days or weeks. I have been to that dark place, and I understand that we don't necessarily take the feelings of others into consideration when we are at that painful of a place.

Pain makes us do uncharachteristic things, be it emotional, physical, or spiritual.

We should not be dividing ourselves into camps, but reaching out to each other in support.
Isn't that what the spirit of this site was founded upon?

Love you all
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2010, 07:53:01 PM »
Really, like you've been a police officer, fighter or an EMT or ever were in the military.

Transparent deflection and argumentum ad hominem, though I've come to expect streams of fallacies when trying to argue with a 12 year old.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 08:23:08 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2010, 08:12:44 PM »
If you'd done that in the other thread you'd have seen that the thread's author has more serious issues than what you just tried to state.
If one reads that other thread, they see that the poster believed that killing himself would in some way "help" his partner. Though that poster also claimed health issues, nearly everything he spoke of as a reason for suicide was financial. It wasn't about him being too sick, it was about his life being out of control and him being out of money. Because he couldn't pay his bills, he had some screwy notion that his partner would be better off with him dead. As I have several dead partners, I felt obligated to explain that a dead partner doesn't help in the least and that it only makes things worse - at lot f-ing worse. Though I didn't even incur my partner's medical bills and debt when he passed away, I could not afford our lifestyle all on my own, and I had to abandon our home after our car was repossessed. Committing suicide, dying, is not going to help his partner at all; but will bring more debt, trouble, grief, and depression - the exact opposite of what he wants.

That's why it was me that said suicide was selfish, which in turn lead to this thread. However, from the very beginning, when assisted suicide for terminal illnesses along with other people's personal issues were injected into this thread, this thread ran so far off track from that other thread, that's it's not even worth referencing anymore.

Quote
your typical simplistic thinking paradigm doesn't seem to be able comprehend that someone that is suicidal and has severe mental health issues isn't going to think of how what they do in terms of suicide is going to effect everyone else
I've been thinking about this issue since this topic started, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. There are two contradictory views being expressed about this subject - one is rational and one is irrational.

One view is from the person thinking of suicide. Consumed by their own fears, issues and problems, they are in a deranged state of mind and unable to objectively reason through their problems. Overwhelmed, they consider such a extreme action as their only choice, their only solution to their problems and to end the depression/grief they are experiencing.

The other view is the objective, rational viewpoint held by those who aren't contemplating suicide. Thinking logically and reasonably, they see the fallacy in the thinking of the suicidal person, they understand the illogic of the arguments the suicidal person puts forth. Of course, these people rightly classify those wrong conclusions as selfish, illogical and unreasonable. Those logical-thinking people already spoke up in that thread offering comfort and support, along with practical, reasonable venues to persue for the solutions to that member's problems. (Hopefully instead of reading this thread, that member has quit dwelling in solitude about his problems and either shared them with his partner and family, or gone to get counseling from a suicide prevention agency or an ASO that can possibly help with his financial problems.)

A person does not die in solitude. Their death affects the lives of the people around them. Whether it the decisions of what to do with the body afterwards or how to close out the finances, or worse how to clean up afterwards or how to continue paying the bills without that person. Whatever else a suicidal person is thinking, thinking about the feelings and problems of the people left behind is not one of them. Whether lead there by depression or not, it's the ultimate in self-centeredness. Suicide IS selfish. Just because a suicidal person doesn't think it is, doesn't make that statement untrue.
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2010, 08:15:40 PM »
Gentlemen,
Please don't digress into unwarranted banter.
This is a very serious subject that deserves sober thought.
It is known that first responders are frequently traumatized by the scenes upon which they must administer, lets not belittle that.
.......but the fact remains, that when a person is submerged in abject misery, they are simply not capable of thinking of the impact on others, in most cases.

Let's get back to the discussion at hand.

I find this to be a very personal subject, because I have always told myself that if I came to the realization that I was slipping between worlds, I would rather take control of my own destiny, than to suffer at the mis-givings of those who think they are trying to act in my interest.

When it is time..........let me go.
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Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2010, 08:24:28 PM »
Philicia and Rod, you need to stop taking swipes at each other RIGHT NOW! or you're going to end up with some Time Out very, very quickly.

So cool it! 
Andy Velez

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2010, 08:24:35 PM »
If one reads that other thread, they see that the poster believed that killing himself would in some way "help" his partner.

:: beats head on wall::

Did you, or did you not, go read all of his old posts?  I've posted in most of his other threads and trust me that this depressive situation is not specific to the one situation described in that thread.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Ann

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2010, 08:25:42 PM »
Gentlemen,
Please don't digress into unwarranted banter.
This is a very serious subject that deserves sober thought.
It is known that first responders are frequently traumatized by the scenes upon which they must administer, lets not belittle that.
.......but the fact remains, that when a person is submerged in abject misery, they are simply not capable of thinking of the impact on others, in most cases.

Let's get back to the discussion at hand.

I find this to be a very personal subject, because I have always told myself that if I came to the realization that I was slipping between worlds, I would rather take control of my own destiny, than to suffer at the mis-givings of those who think they are trying to act in my interest.

When it is time..........let me go.

Well said Lisa.

The reason the moderators decided to leave this thread unlocked is that it's a subject that has come up in several threads lately, both outright and in a round-about manner. It was NOT left unlocked for people to throw barbs at each other.

If you cannot contribute to the conversation without getting personal with other members, then stay out of the conversation.

I've been very ill over New Years and probably should have been in hospital on NYE. The last thing I want to do right now is babysit a bunch of adults who should be able to conduct a thoughtful conversation about a very adult subject. Knock it off or regretfully, this thread WILL be locked and possible time outs given.

Ann
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2010, 08:55:42 PM »
Let's get back to the discussion at hand.
When it is time..........let me go.
I don't think this thread is about "assisted suicide"/euthansia.
(for proper context of how this "discussion" started please read the thread I want to die)

Did you, or did you not, go read all of his old posts?  I've posted in most of his other threads and trust me that this depressive situation is not specific to the one situation described in that thread.
yes, i posted replies in his other threads too.
his partner also refuses to face up to the HIV issues in the relationship by not getting tested, while that member has gone for months without counseling, without changing meds that could be excaberating these issues, and without seeking help from an ASO for financial assistance.

this really is a messed up thread I think. Sometimes it's about that other thread and that member, sometimes it's about other people's issues, sometimes it's about terminal illness/end-of-life decisions, sometimes it's about depression and the mental state of people who consider suicide. It's too hard to argue in the abstract and too rude to discuss this in the specfic. ::)
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2010, 08:59:02 PM »
Touche' leatherman,
 Your point is well taken.
I agree.
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2010, 09:08:19 PM »
this really is a messed up thread I think. Sometimes it's about that other thread and that member, sometimes it's about other people's issues, sometimes it's about terminal illness/end-of-life decisions, sometimes it's about depression and the mental state of people who consider suicide. It's too hard to argue in the abstract and too rude to discuss this in the specfic. ::)

I agree...
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2010, 09:10:49 PM »
Your point is well taken.
I agree.
Having had the onerous burden of making the decision to put seven of my cockers to "sleep" (though I wish with all my might, none have seem fit to go peacefully in their natural sleep; and I reckon that I'll have this burden to make yet again someday with the 3 spaniels I still have with me), and having used, under hospice guidance, pain meds to ease two partners out of this life, I would never argue against human or animal euthanasia, if and when the situation warrants. Easing pain and bringing about an impending death sooner is never a selfish act - the selfishness there is trying to hold on too long.
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Offline Buckmark

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2010, 11:47:18 PM »
This thread seems to be going in multiple directions.  But returning to what I think is the original topic of "suicide as selfish", I fail to see what good it does to apply the label of "selfish" to suicide, or someone contemplating it.  I hardly think it would prevent someone from committing the act if that is their intent.  At that point, all one can see and feel is incredible pain and hopelessness, and they are looking for relief.  Is it selfish to want relief?  I don't believe so.  While there are better ways of getting relief, it doesn't always seem that way to someone who is in that much pain. 

Regards,

Henry
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Offline BT65

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2010, 08:13:59 AM »
I've been at that dark place before, where I could see no solution.  And I attempted suicide a couple times.  Not succeeding, and seeing what affect it had on my daughter, I resolved to never, ever do it again.  It would cause my daughter too much unncessary pain, and perhaps a fucked-up life.

However, when I was at what I thought the point of no return, I wasn't thinking about other people.  I only wanted the pain to end.  The pain was too overwhelming to think through the long-term effects it would have etc.  I've heard people, who've lost others to suicide, say it's selfish.  But, I have to think, that the person attempting suicide is extremely desperate, to resort to taking one's own life.  It could be argued that thinking just of oneself is selfish; but, until someone is in that situation, I think a lot of judgement gets thrown around, that shouldn't.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline anniebc

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2010, 05:10:39 PM »
Suicide is a terrible thing to witness and I agree it's totally unfair on those left behind...but when those who are contemplating suicide are so desperate and so depressed to a point of where they are convinced they are way beyond the point of no return the last thing they are thinking about is fair..all they want to do is stop their suffering and get out of an unbearable situation.

I have spoken to many attempted suicides over the years and when asked "Why did you do it" their answer is always the same "because I'm a burdon to my family and friends" they truly believe they are doing their family and friends a favour by ending it all.

I have never been in that situation, I don't condone suicide.. but I certainly don't judge them either.

Hugs
Jan
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Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2010, 05:23:53 PM »
Why do I think of Death
As a friend?...


                                           --- Stevie Smith

Who's this Stevie Smith fella? Never heard of him...   ;) 

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A

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Offline darkerpozz

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2010, 02:12:44 PM »
my two cents,
 I too have been to the "dark place" and when I think of the comment of taking the easy way out i just view it as someone who has no idea because when you are feeling that lost you are hardly thinking of what the family thinks. Your painis YOUR pain unless they are wearing your shoes it is unfare to judge. Selfish ONLY in the sense they are consumed by the pain they are individually feeling, They aren't out to hurt anyone. If they think that I could say their full of themself. Suicide and depression are subjects that nobody wants to deal with since we must judge not lest we sic BOO on you.

Offline Sebastian1969

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Re: Suicide as selfishness...
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2010, 04:52:57 PM »
Honestly I think when someone gets to the darkest place, they are not being selfish, they are consumed with the thought of ending it and see it as the only way out. 
This time of the year is hard for people, especially those who experience depression, have lost family members, friends, have money problems, relationship problems, and health problems.  That describes 99.9% of the people around.
I think a better angle to take would be to find ways to prevent suicide, rahter than deciding if it is a selfish act or not.  People need to realize their worth before they ever get to the darkest of dark places, and seek help before they would ever attempt suicide.  People ned to watch out for each otehr, we need to be kinder to people we meet, friends, family, loved ones, and even those we don't particully care for.  People need to realize that their life has meaning, no one needs to be happy everyday--that's not normal, but people need to watch when days and weeks go by and they are unhappy for long periods of time and seek help. 
Depression is a disease and like so many others, without proper treatment, people with the disease can't survive.

 


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