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Author Topic: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar  (Read 7596 times)

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Offline LordBerners

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Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« on: November 29, 2009, 09:32:45 AM »
I've quite the case of diahrrea today after eating steak tar-tar at dinner last night.  I doubt its to blame though because it started in the afternoon and I ate the food the evening before.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2009, 10:33:59 AM »
I have no idea why this thread exists, nor do I understand why someone who is HIV+ would tempt fate and eat raw hamburger. 

I just would like to caution anyone tempted to eat raw meat, that they follow some very simple but important guidelines.  First, the cow should have been one you knew and also knew the vet reports on.  Secondly, the amount of fat involved should be almost none, as many of the things ingested by cattle in the feeding process; stay in the fat.  Thirdly, if these suggestions seem a bit restrictive to you; simply don't do it.  The food chain we all know and love, both in the U.S. and Europe, are still not safe enough for someone who is HIV+ to take the risk of eating beef raw.  If you don't believe me, take a tour of a slaughterhouse.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2009, 10:39:25 AM »
I would not eat steak tartare even if I were HIV-Negative, just my .2Ę
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 11:11:38 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2009, 11:04:06 AM »
I would not eat steak tartar even if I were HIV-Negative, just my .2Ę

Agreed

 I watched a show one time about a little boy who ate a piece of raw meat that fell from the grill.  He was left brain damaged because he was not properly treated after becoming sick.  I think it was E. coli if memory serves me right... 

 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Ann

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2009, 11:21:31 AM »
LB, food poisoning does not necessarily show itself immediately after having eaten contaminated food, so your reasoning that the raw meat you ate wasn't the cause doesn't work.

Where E. coli is concerned, the incubation period is usually 3-4 days, although rarely the incubation can be as short as 12 hours or as long as 8 days. source

If your diarrhea doesn't pass quickly (no pun intended), you'd be wise to see your doctor.

Personally I'd never eat raw meat. Well, not that kind of raw meat anyway! ;D

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2009, 11:27:19 AM »

Personally I'd never eat raw meat. Well, not that kind of raw meat anyway! ;D


But you were just mentioning in another thread how you can't use a tongue scraper because you have a gag reflex? ;)

 

Offline Ann

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2009, 11:32:35 AM »
But you were just mentioning in another thread how you can't use a tongue scraper because you have a gag reflex? ;)

 

Yeah, I know, strange, isn't it. Tongue scrapers are about the only thing that gets my gag reflex going. :D
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2009, 02:30:27 PM »
Nobody HIV+ or HIV- is supposed to eat raw meat.  Sushi if its worth the price has been flash to subzero temperatures which supposedly kills problem bacteria.

Now, I have never seen a certified nutritionist nor have I heard of an HIV doc telling their patients not to eat cooked meat.  

To each his own but guidelines such as "know your cow" are ridiculous applied to the general population.  

Buy bio meat if you can afford it, quality meat if you can't, cook it fresh, cook it appropriately, and ENJOY.  Geez! Enjoy life, and quality meet is nutritious besides delicious!

By the way, there are all kinds of cured and dried meats - beef and port -- around Europe and I eat them, they are a must for aperitif at many dinners or cocktails, and they are delicious.  I have yet to have a problem, knock on wood.  I guess it just takes one.

If your digestive tract didn't take a huge hit from long-term HIV infection, i don't see why people feel like they have to make blanket generalisations.  Its all so damn sloppy.  I bet there are quite a few LTS who have reconstituted a good digestive flora and enjoy their meat as well.

For my part, I have perfect BMs and intend to eat delicious foods from all the groups for the rest of my days. , washed down with wine and water and toasted with cocktails if the occassion calls.  And then a cigar.  

Live it up my friends....  Thats my blanket generalisation.  Don't be an alcoholic and don't be a regular smoker..
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 02:40:38 PM by mecch »
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2009, 02:33:56 PM »
I personally don't care for steak tartare because the texture is like cold turd, but if my cd4 count was within normal range I'd not take much more precaution than a non-infected person would (meaning however that I'd only eat such a dish at a restaurant with a sterling reputation for cleanliness).  Of course, the greater the frequency you eat such things the greater the chance for trouble... kind of like taking raw cocks up the ass I suppose.  If my lab numbers were still tenuous and/or had not been stable for at least a couple of years I would be more prudent, and personally I was back years ago.

As far as food poisoning goes in general you can get it when you least expected.  I've only had it bad once in my life and that was from an up-scale salad place.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2009, 02:38:44 PM »




    Ann, why do you deep throat tongue scrapers?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2009, 03:36:14 PM »
Interesting responses, and thank you.  I eat steak tar tar at least once every few months and normally have no problems.  Its quite often delicious, in my opinion, and I'm not too worried about it.  My CD4's in the 600s range.

Anyway as far as I can tell the diarrhea seems to have subsided now.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2009, 04:36:27 PM »



   I think I am going to try and stretch the Thanksgiving turkey leftovers past the two week mark.  I know they advise against it, but what the hell.... I'm different than everyone else.

   Glad to hear everything is flowing back to normal.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2009, 05:22:31 PM »
See, for some reason I'm MUCH more cautious about leftovers than I am raw foods (that are fresh and eaten sporadically at most).  I'd never eat something that was in my fridge for two weeks.  
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline aztecan

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2009, 05:35:12 PM »
Interesting responses, and thank you.  I eat steak tar tar at least once every few months and normally have no problems.  Its quite often delicious, in my opinion, and I'm not too worried about it.  My CD4's in the 600s range.

Anyway as far as I can tell the diarrhea seems to have subsided now.

Hey LB,

Was it chevre'? (My French spelling sucks, so forgive me.)

That was the only steak tartar I have eaten, and that was in Paris about 30 years ago, before I was a pozzie.

Now that I have the bug, I eschew uncooked foods for the most part. Sometimes I will splurge on sushi or sashimi, but most of that is behind me now.

As Ann pointed out, "food poisoning," whether it be bacterial, amoebic, or parasitic in nature, can take a while to show up and can last even longer.

Just be careful.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2009, 05:52:34 PM »

I've had steak tartare three times in the past month, but I agree with Moffie here--know the cow.  When I make it at home, I get the beef from a farmer I know and trust.  I eat it in a restaurant because I know that no restaurant in New York would dare serve something that could get them sued.  I also agree with Miss P here--a poz person whose CD4s are high shouldn't, as far as I can tell, need to take more precautions than a neg person would.  Or am I wrong about that? 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2009, 06:19:52 PM »
Hey LB,

Was it chevre'? (My French spelling sucks, so forgive me.)

Uh, chŤvre is goats' milk cheese.  Your looking for tartare de cheval here.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 06:21:34 PM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2009, 06:44:42 PM »


   So if I want to try this steak tar tar can I just cut expenses and use a package of ground beef or should I air on the side of caution and pony up for premium ground chuck?  Can I just like put some in a bowl and eat it with a little lemon on the side?  Would the lemon make it safer?  What about chicken breast tar tar, is there such a thing?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2009, 06:51:47 PM »

   So if I want to try this steak tar tar can I just cut expenses and use a package of ground beef or should I air on the side of caution and pony up for premium ground chuck?  Can I just like put some in a bowl and eat it with a little lemon on the side?  Would the lemon make it safer?  What about chicken breast tar tar, is there such a thing?

Don't they have google in the trailer parks in south Florida?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2009, 06:54:14 PM »
Hi,

I've never heard of eating raw chicken except in a Lao Laab.  I use ground beef from a grass-fed cow; I don't even know what cut it is.  The farmer himself eats it raw and I trust him.   I mix it with a lot of mustard, raw minced garlic, parsley, an egg yolk or two, capers, cayenne pepper, and lemon juice (which I think does do something--I know that's why we can have ceviche without worrying.)  If people are really worried about bacteria, simply keeping the beef in the freezer for two weeks will kill any bad bacteria that might be there, although I myself do not do this.  

I've had raw meat of various types in French, Italian, Ethiopian, Thai, Korean, Japanese, and Lebanese recipes, and I'm probably forgetting a few--it seems a universal habit.  
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2009, 06:59:54 PM »
Don't they have google in the trailer parks in south Florida?

I was looking under googel.com, no wonder I couldn't find nuttin.  Thanks for the helps!
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2009, 07:00:18 PM »
Oh, it's definitely Americans that freak about raw food items.  They can't even handle things not being pasteurized.  There's nothing quite like unpasteurized butter.  Nothing.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2009, 07:02:36 PM »
I know that's why we can have ceviche without worrying.)  

Ahhh, I have a friend in Miami who is from Peru, his wife makes  ceviche that is so good it makes your mouth orgasm.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2009, 07:36:46 PM »
sounds great--do you have her recipe?
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline mecch

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2009, 08:25:12 PM »
Do NOT eat steak tar tar from commercial ground beef, my friend.  You need to go to a butcher and get the beef ground for you and eat it that night.  Or go to a good steak house.
Anyhow, I thought steak tar tar was illegal in all US restaurants.

And no, you can't eat chicken raw, the risk is too high.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2009, 08:43:14 PM »

Quote
Anyhow, I thought steak tar tar was illegal in all US restaurants.

Apparently not, although given the paranoia of our food laws it's almost surprising that it isn't.  I've had it at restuarants quite recently, and they weren't exactly steakhouses.  But it almost seems silly to order it in a restaurant--if I'm going to pay restaurant prices I want to get some cooking for my money--not something I can toss together myself in my own kitchen in under five minutes!

If they made it illegal, what would be next--really rare steak? 

Quote
Do NOT eat steak tar tar from commercial ground beef...You need to go to a butcher and get the beef ground for you...

Does the farmer's market count? 

In what way is a butcher's shop not 'commercial'?  I think anytime I pay money for something, it is by definition commercial?  But if you mean "don't use random, hormone-and-antibiotic-laced beef from some cow that lived in a factory", then I would agree with you.  I try to stick with 100% grass-fed beef. 

Quote
...and eat it that night

The last time I made steak tartare I ate half of it then and the other half maybe three or four days later.  Didn't have any problem. 


Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Basquo

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2009, 09:22:03 PM »
LordBerners, I think raw meat can make you sick with or without food poisioning, with or without an incubation period, and here's my most recent anecdote:

Weekend before last, I cooked rare steaks, as my partner likes, and it was delicious.  Last weekend I cooked the same steaks from the same store the same way, and it tasted a little funky to me, and I got diarrhea about 15 minutes after finishing eating and it lasted for 2 days.  My partner had no reaction.

The only difference is that the steaks I cooked before had been frozen and then thawed, and the more recent steaks had never been frozen, just refridgerated.

Most of it I chalk up to a random episode of my IBS, but part of me can't help to think if the lack of freezing had anything to do with it.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2009, 09:36:24 PM »

In what way is a butcher's shop not 'commercial'?  I think anytime I pay money for something, it is by definition commercial?  But if you mean "don't use random, hormone-and-antibiotic-laced beef from some cow that lived in a factory", then I would agree with you.  I try to stick with 100% grass-fed beef.  

I think he means commercial as in ground up, packaged and exposed to oxygen for days at a supermarket.  When you get it at a butcher and then go home and make it the same day there's less exposure to oxygen which cuts down on potential bacteria/parasite risks.  In fact, if you really wanted to be fierce you'd grind it yourself at home, or chop it by hand with a meat cleaver.  Isn't what you're buying at the farmer's market packaged and not ground as you're standing right there?

By the same token when you go to a butcher you should specify that you are using tenderloin for tartare so that they grind the best cut of beef for you.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 09:38:12 PM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2009, 10:13:37 PM »
All this talk of meat reminded me that I just recently saw the movie Food, Inc., it's a documentary that exposes the horrors of the commercial food industry. According to the film, there are only a handful of companies (Tyson, Smithfield, and like 2 or 3 others) that produce the vast majority of meat in the US (beef, chicken, pork, etc.) and the conditions in all of their plants are deplorable. These are factory farms where the animals are raised sloppily, living in horrible conditions and killed not just inhumanely but downright cruelly.

The movie shows all sorts of statistics about how in the 1970s the FDA inspected a big percentage of the plants whereas now very few FDA inspections happen (relative to the number of plants), I don't remember the exact numbers but it was scary.

On the flip side I was watching Ina Garten (love her!), the Barefoot Contessa on The Food Network, who was making some yummy burgers using "Niman Ranch" beef. These are grass fed cows who are impeccably raised and humanely slaughtered.

I know not everyone can afford it but even if it means eating it less often, when having beef, chicken, pork, lamb, etc., why not splurge and go for the good stuff? Animals who are raised organically, fed correctly, treated right and slaughtered humanely. Apart from all the other good reasons, this kind of meat tastes much better.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 10:59:10 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2009, 10:31:28 PM »

Inchingblue,

I agree completely--I think everyone should see that film. 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Ric Wilke

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2009, 10:39:44 PM »
We eat steak tartare once a week.  We only eat ground round that is 95% fat free.  Spread on dark rye bread and topped with sliced raw onion, salt and pepper.  We don't do the raw egg thing, however sometimes we add capers.  It's one of our favorite dinners.

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2009, 11:04:12 PM »
Onion!  That's what I forgot when I gave my recipe before--lots of onion!
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2009, 11:08:11 PM »
I have never touched it not because of the raw meat thing, but because of the raw egg stuck on the top in most recipes (at least when I have seen friends eat it).   

Raw egg grosses me out to no end. 

Offline mecch

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2009, 06:26:00 PM »
Does the farmer's market count? 
In what way is a butcher's shop not 'commercial'?  I think anytime I pay money for something, it is by definition commercial?  But if you mean "don't use random, hormone-and-antibiotic-laced beef from some cow that lived in a factory", then I would agree with you.  I try to stick with 100% grass-fed beef. 
I was meaning to explain that beef that is presented to you, already ground, in a package - you don't know what cuts of meat have gone into it and thecases of ecoli poisoning from beef have been from undercooked pre-ground factory produced "hamburger" meat.  You need to cook this meat well done.

If you are buying steaks from a reputable butcher, you run far less risk, either as rare steak, or ground up for steak tartar. 

Steak tar tar is traditinally made from SIRLOIN or MIGNON.  Pre-prepared ground round isn't the raw material to make it and its dangerous to boot.
 
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2009, 06:32:46 PM »
And, by the way, wild Pacific salmon has far less chemicals than Atlantic farmed salmon.  Now if only there were wild cows, we could have wild free range steak tar tar!
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Basquo

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2009, 09:46:28 PM »
And, by the way, wild Pacific salmon has far less chemicals than Atlantic farmed salmon.  Now if only there were wild cows, we could have wild free range steak tar tar!

Good idea, but if we had wild cows they would probably be a protected species, at least in the U.S.

What would be really cool,  would be vulture tartare. Those damn birds ruin many a windscreen here in Texas. I can even see variations, with the signs..."Chicken-Fried Turkey Buzzard Served Here."

Offline Jeff64

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2009, 10:05:30 PM »
Just the thought of raw meat gives me explosive poo. Please, eat met cooked!

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2009, 10:23:15 PM »

Mecch,

You write:

Quote
thecases of ecoli poisoning from beef have been from undercooked pre-ground factory produced "hamburger" meat.

It sounds reasonable to me to suppose that operative word in the above sentence is not the "pre-ground" bit that you are so concerned with but rather the "factory" part. 

To put it simply, either there is e-coli in the beef to begin with, or there is not.  If there is, the beef will hurt me even if I eat it the minute it is ground.  If not, it is not going magically to develop e-coli because a day or two passed after the beef was ground.  Therefore, the appropriate outlet for any energy we want to expend in thinking about this is to make sure the beef comes from a reputable and clean source to begin with--not to obsess about when the grinding took place. 

For me the non-negotiables are--and with the general principles that you express I should think you would agree here--that the beef must come from a clean, local organic farm where the cows are pastured and treated humanely.  A farm that goes to those lengths is also pretty likely to be hygienic enough that the risk of e-coli should be minimal. 

Now, I'm sure there are butcher shops that get their meat from such farms, but what does the butcher shop prove? The whole idea behind buying locally is that we give the farmers themselves a living wage, by eliminating the various middle-men. Why should I go to a butcher who bought the beef from the farmer when I can go directly to the farmer?  That a farmer sells to a butcher (rather than directly to me at the farmer's market) is no guarantee that his meat is pristine; it is only a guarantee that he is running a big enough operation to be selling to a butcher.  But it is precisely the larger operations that I think are more dangerous. 

If I really cared about the beef being ground the moment before I ate it, I would buy a grinder and grind it myself.  But I am not convinced that this is important.  Beef gets e-coli by being exposed to e-coli, either because it is in the cow or in the equipment used to grind the beef.  If e-coli is in either one of those things, my tartare will be fatal even if I eat it five seconds after grinding.  If not, I do not thing it will become contaminated by being exposed to oxygen for one or two days.  If e-coli were just floating around in the air in that way, ready to infest anything exposed to oxygen, it would be infecting many other things (our salads? fruits and nuts?) and we would all have dropped dead long ago.  Besides, even a steak that has not been ground is still exposed to oxygen on all its surfaces--to follow your idea to its logical conclusion, we would have to prepare and eat our meat the very moment the cow was slaughtered.  It simply does not stand to reason, for me, that healthy steak is going to become lethal simply because it was ground a day or two ago. 

Finally, if we are really worried about contamination, there is a far more effective method of protecting ourselves than watching the butcher grind our meat: that is to freeze it for two weeks before eating.  I do not do so myself, but if I were less confident of my farmer's hygenic standards than I am, that is what I would do to solve the problem. 

As for the tradtional cuts of sirloin or mignon, I shall keep that in mind for the day when I have a few extra pennies to spend on my table, but for now I am struggling to eat well on a very tight budget, and since I do not compromise with anything that is not organic, and since moreover there are certain luxuries which, because I am fighting HIV and need to stay strong, I will not do without--such as wild salmon, and cod liver oil--the tenderer cuts will have to wait.  In the meantime I live largely on rice, beans, eggs, and saurkraut, and my meat comes largely in the form of liver and kidneys, stew meat, and ground beef. 

Quote
And, by the way, wild Pacific salmon has far less chemicals than Atlantic farmed salmon.  Now if only there were wild cows, we could have wild free range steak tar tar!

You are correct about wild salmon; I wouldn't touch farmed salmon (or any farmed fish) with a ten-foot pole.  But there is an equivalent in the world of beef.  Cow has not been a wild animal for thousands of years, but a cow on pasture, eating grass,---look for "100% grass-fed and grass-finished" AND they have to guarantee that the "grass" in question is really green stuff, and not corn--and you have the bovine equivalent of wild pacific salmon.  Plus, there is always Bison, which makes a great tartare too.  It is to farms such as these, and not to the butcher, that I recommend you look.

One last note--I just saw my doctor and got my latest "numbers", (see below) and while they aren't what I had hoped for, I can at least say that my enthusiasm for raw meat, over the past few months, hasn't exactly driven me to an early grave! 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline komnaes

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2009, 10:33:39 PM »
Hmmmm... another poo thread, kind of timely for me too.

I just had a horrible weekend of stomach cramps and while I cannot link my case to the meal I had on Friday evening (actually I already started feeling "funny" last Thursday after eating a big bowl of suspicious noodles in an airport in China), we did order beef carpaccio and a goat cheese salad. Both were fantastic, but a few hours later I was waken up by this horrible pain/cramps that it felt like someone was pounding my stomach and chests the whole night.

I was hoping it would clear up itself after a few visits to the bathroom but by the afternoon I finally dragged myself out of the house to see a doctor. And just today (3 days later) I am able to start eating normally...

In any case I think eating while traveling for work in places like China is more of a health hazard for me than the occasional raw beef/fish, .. it's difficult sometimes to avoid certain places while traveling and it's difficult to keep to a normal meal schedule. Only just 2 months ago I had another case of horrible diarrhea after eating in a restaurant in Beijing. It was a confirmed case of (minor) food poisoning as my two friends eating with me were both reporting diarrhea just hours after the meal...
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2009, 11:08:58 PM »
Komnaes,

Having lived in China for several years, I can say that almost every foreigner who went there had the same complaint.  Many attribute it to the very unhealthy rapeseed oil which is often used in the cooking; others to the water which, one way or another, cannot be entirely avoided.  By the way, midway through my second year in China (this was also six months after getting HIV, although I didn't know it at the time) I had a bout of it myself; someone recommended yogurt, I took his adivce, and the problem went away immediately!
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2009, 11:09:51 PM »
Well, duh queen (edit: meaning Shaun) -- with your numbers I'd not be eating raw meat either.  
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline komnaes

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2009, 12:40:44 AM »
Well, duh queen (edit: meaning Shaun) -- with your numbers I'd not be eating raw meat either.  

Well, this queen seems to have developed a penchant for raw meat some years ago and it's been a downward spiral ever since...

OK, raw beef = bad idea.. I will write that 200 times on the blackboard after class...
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline aztecan

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2009, 01:39:31 AM »
Uh, chŤvre is goats' milk cheese.  Your looking for tartare de cheval here.

Thanks hon, my brain fails me at times - lots of times! ;)

If I could be sure of the source, I might try steak tartare (is that the correct spelling?), especially if it was the aforementioned cheval, which I found very tasty. Of course, its not available in the U.S., and I heard Britain was going to ban it or had already banned it, so I guess I won't be tasting it too soon.

So, why the hubbub about farm-raised fish?

HUGS,

Mark


« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 01:57:08 AM by aztecan »
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2009, 02:29:27 AM »


   Mark, regarding farm raised salmon, I've read that it is advised to limit consumption due to unacceptable mercury levels.  

    
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2009, 02:59:12 AM »
In any case I think eating while traveling for work in places like China is more of a health hazard for me than the occasional raw beef/fish, .. 

Just curious, do you mean before your HIV diagnosis? I thought China did not allow visitors who are HIV+

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2009, 03:07:48 AM »
Just curious, do you mean before your HIV diagnosis? I thought China did not allow visitors who are HIV+

He lives in Hong Kong so he's a Chinese citizen.  He probably just meant "mainland China".
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Ann

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2009, 09:41:51 AM »
I've got to ask, you guys are  aware, aren't you, that tartare de cheval is horse meat?

Here are a couple links to some interesting tid-bits about horse meat:

http://en.allexperts.com/e/h/ho/horse_meat.htm

http://equinejustice.blogspot.com/2009/08/would-you-like-some-amphetamines-with.html
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Offline max123

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2009, 09:59:58 AM »
I've got to ask, you guys are  aware, aren't you, that tartare de cheval is horse meat?

lol nice... mr. ed comes to dinner  :o

kidding aside, are you guys aware that steak tartare is a potential vector for toxoplasmosis, the treatment for which is additional lifelong meds? check out the link: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/brochures/toxo.htm
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2009, 11:54:07 AM »
I've got to ask, you guys are  aware, aren't you, that tartare de cheval is horse meat?


Yes, of course -- and I assumed Mark knows too.  I ate a cheval burger once when I was 14 when I was in Cap d'Antibes.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2009, 12:15:58 PM »
Hey LB,

Was it chevre'? (My French spelling sucks, so forgive me.)

You mean horse?  No, it was just beef.  Here in Thailand there's not much horse around.

I wish I could try the horse version of course.

Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline Nestor

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Re: Diahrea day after steak tar-tar
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2009, 02:16:20 PM »
Quote
kidding aside, are you guys aware that steak tartare is a potential vector for toxoplasmosis, the treatment for which is additional lifelong meds?

According to them, it's not just raw meat that we "must" avoid, but any meat that is not well-done.  They say to avoid only raw or rare meat, but that is dishonest, because they then go on to say:

"cook meat until it is no longer pink in the center."

Meat that has been cooked until it is no longer pink in the center is not only not rare; it is well-done.  So to start out with, even by these standards, we cannot single out raw meat as a "vector"; even a steak cooked to "medium" is still suspect.  

To give them credit, they do go on to say:

"Red meat is also safe from toxo if it has been frozen for at least 24 hours, smoked, or cured."

That's what I've said twice above, and for the nervous, "freeze it first" is a far more humane message than "don't eat it!"  

They go on to say that chicken and eggs do not carry toxo, but then add:

"However, you should still cook these foods until well done because of the risk for other diseases."

I've never before heard an egg described as "well done", but I suspect the authors of this tract would frown on the runny yolks of my sunny-side eggs and soft-boileds, (not to mention the raw yolks in my mayonnaise, egg nog, sukiyaki, and, oh yes, tartare...)  

I am looking forward to the next installment in which they warn us to stay home and not cross streets, which are, after all, a "potential vector" for getting hit by a car.  


  
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:18:18 PM by Nestor »
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

 


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