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Author Topic: Am I Wrong???  (Read 13425 times)

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Offline GSOgymrat

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  • Posts: 5,002
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2009, 03:26:46 PM »
Although in some of the studies I've worked with concerning disclosure suggest that female family members are more frequently the first to hear an HIV disclosure, I'm not sure that the grand assumption that somehow they accept the news better than male counterparts solely based on their gender is neccessarily true.

I know my father took the gay thing MUCH better than my mother. My father calmly expressed his disappointment because 1) he thought being gay in this society would be a challenge and 2) another lost chance at grandchildren since my older brother is gay. Other than that he was very supportive. My mother's reaction was another story. I had told my siblings first and each one said "You CAN'T tell mom." When I did tell her I was expecting the worst but even I couldn't imagine the total meltdown. She cried hysterically, insisted I see a psychiatrist, thought my older brother had molested me, blamed my father and then refused to speak to me for 3 months. When she did speak to me again it was "You'll end up alone," "It's like my son has died," "You caused my nervous breakdown," guilt, drama, guilt, drama. It took years of being with my partner before she accepted my relationship was basically like everyone elses and actually became supportive. You would think because she knew about my older brother it wouldn't have been such a shock but it was.

I think the HIV disclosure would have gone similarly.


Offline deibster

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  • Posts: 153
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2009, 03:49:01 PM »
Hello all; There is another issue that you should be looking at Iking. You are poz and not on medication. They are changing the guidelines every year and starting to treat hiv earlier. One theory is that starting meds at a CD4 count of 500 rather than a CD4 count of 200 may add 20 years to your life. I wish I had known this back in '95 when my CD4 count went under 300.

As for telling your family; it would give them the chance to spend more quality time with you while both you and they are still healthy. I know that I had good days & bad days when I was first poz and again when I started medication. If I had not told my mother that I was poz, she would have picked up on these bad days and been worried about the cause & was I getting treatment for the cause. So, telling my family, avoided questions about why I was occasionally nauseous, and occasionally down. And avoided worry on the part of my family that it was something more immediate, like cancer, or something that was untreatable.
Best of luck whatever you decide. Hugs from Provincetown, deibster
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 03:52:40 PM by deibster »
Poz since Dec 1992. Meds since 1995. Disability since 2005.

Prezista/Norvir, Epzicom, Cytomel, Prevacid, pravastatin, Fenofibrate, Remeron, Zoloft, Concerta, doxazosin, Allegra180, Nasocort, Centrum, Flax Oil, Fish Oil

Offline LatinAlexander

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  • Bogota, Colombia
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2009, 03:55:22 PM »
Hello all:

Well, it is a hot issue. But I would resume it on this. What is a parent biggest fear? Losing its child. Being gay doesn´t kill you. HIV CAN kill you.

So , for me, saving families from that pain is an special way of loving them. I am sure my family would be there for me. They completely take me being gay perfectly ok. But their fear and sadness of losing one of us is just too much to handle.

I am not a father, but if I would, then I would be sad that my kid wouldn´t have told me. But I would understand it.

I also think that social , cultural, generational levels are critical factors. I mean, if they have seen or met other people with HIV, then maybe it would be a little bit easier. But again, it varies a lot.

And not, I do not think you are wrong. You´ll do what you need to do. And no one has the right to say you were right or wrong. After all, you are you :)

Alex
Poz since Jul 19 2006
Initial numbers : CD4-250 VL 3500
First labs after HAART (Dec 04-2006) : CD4-432 VL-<40 (Undetectable)  cd4%=25.11%
Started HAART: Combivir+Efavirenz Aug 26 7:38 pm
Feb 08 2007 - Gradually stopping HAART cause of Myalgia. Protecting Efavirenz. Stopped Efavirenz, ahead with Combivir....
February 17 Combivir stopped.
April 3 -07 : Started ddi+3tc+efavirenz...
Gay and positive (What a lack of Identity...:) )
Looking for my Ben....

Offline iking2009

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  • Posts: 49
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2009, 03:57:56 PM »
If you haven't told them you're gay, then I can understand why you haven't told them you're HIV+.  For me, it gets harder and harder to be honest the farther I get from the truth.

This is Soooo true....
"One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory."
-- Rita Mae Brown

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2009, 04:02:56 PM »
This thread is very illuminating on why so many gay men I've met over the years are incapable of handling emotional situations.  It's utterly depressing, frankly.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline rmgjunk

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  • Blue Lantern Corps!
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2009, 04:15:53 PM »
She cried hysterically, insisted I see a psychiatrist, thought my older brother had molested me, blamed my father and then refused to speak to me for 3 months. When she did speak to me again it was "You'll end up alone," "It's like my son has died," "You caused my nervous breakdown," guilt, drama, guilt, drama. It took years of being with my partner before she accepted my relationship was basically like everyone elses and actually became supportive.

Are we brothers?!? :-)  Except for the gay older brother, that's exactly my mother's reaction when I told her.  Nowadays she even cooks my boyfriend's prefered dishes, though. :-)
14-Sep-2009 Tested positive
Last labs: VL <47, CD4 441/29%
Current meds: AZT, 3TC, Nevirapine

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,699
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2009, 04:24:22 PM »
I take all your points on board but its to difficult to generalise everybodys situation ,personality,family set up etc etc is different its down to what the individual person is comfortable with,and in my case i am content just telling my wife and brother do you understand that or are you saying i have a responsibility to the hiv community to spread the word and due to present day stigma ruin my life my wifes ,daughters and family. Now i am aware that this is wrong but i want to be honest with you so dont come down on me like a ton of bricks but i am 11 months pos and at the moment feel embarrassed about my hiv status even though i know i shouldnt be its a virus that anyone can get but its how i truly feel. Maybe that will pass in time i dont know,maybe things in the states have moved on alot more than here in europe i am from the uk ,living in spain.
I hope you understand i am not saying i am right buts its how i feel right now. I know how my small community think i have a restaurant and they would be saying dont eat in there youll get aids,awful isnt it,how backward people are and uneducated but thats how it is,my daughter would get tortured at school kids can be cruel you know .

I don't think you are wrong one bit Tommy and I agree everyone's situation is different.  I also understand your feelings regarding your status especially since you are only 11 months in, just hang in there.  
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Online Joe K

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2009, 04:53:47 PM »
Well, it is a hot issue. But I would resume it on this. What is a parent biggest fear? Losing its child. Being gay doesn´t kill you. HIV CAN kill you.

So , for me, saving families from that pain is an special way of loving them. I am sure my family would be there for me. They completely take me being gay perfectly ok. But their fear and sadness of losing one of us is just too much to handle.

I am not a father, but if I would, then I would be sad that my kid wouldn´t have told me. But I would understand it.
With all due respect, you have no concept of what a family can be. It's evident because you miss my point entirely. Kate has known of my HIV, since she was three years old and I cannot imagine ever keeping something like my infection, from her. Never. I have learned how to minimize my health reports, because unless I am dying, she doesn't need to know the gory details of daily living.

I want an honest relationship with Kate and there is nothing she has not told me. I would be crushed if she felt uncomfortable telling me anything, because then she fears my possible reaction, and if that were true, then I have failed as a parent. Unconditional love is just that: unconditional. There are no rules and with the exception of murder, there is little she could do, for me to ever stop loving her.  Believe me, when I tell you, that those thoughts are the same ones your parents have, regarding you.

My greatest fear is not losing Kate to illness, rather it would be having her feel, that she needed to suffer alone.  Most parents will not do that. Ever. That is what "unconditional" love means.

Offline leese43

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2009, 06:12:58 PM »
I know that any mother who raises her child will know if their child is gay or not.  I don't think my sexuality is a big deal anymore @ all. It is now my hiv status.

I'm a mother who didn't have a clue her son was gay until he told me when he was 18.
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline mecch

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  • Posts: 11,224
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2009, 06:29:13 PM »
I'm a mother who didn't have a clue her son was gay until he told me when he was 18.

My grandmother figured it out before my mom. 

That must have been a surprise for you!
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2009, 06:30:38 PM »
My mother didn't know it either, even though she dressed me in multi-colored flower embroidered lederhosen as a young child, and my favorite toy was a red plastic broom.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline leese43

  • Member
  • Posts: 257
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2009, 06:36:51 PM »


That must have been a surprise for you!

A surprise...I nearly crashed the bloody car... He could have at least waited until we were at a red light!
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline leese43

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2009, 06:39:46 PM »
Quote from: mecch link=topic=29818.msg365837#msg365837 date=12579821

That must have been a surprise for you!
[/quote
A surprise..I nearly crashed the bloody car...he could have at least waited until we were at a red light! lol. Was funny though, I had been asking him if there were any girls on the scene haha. taught me tolearn to mind my own business. unless i'm stationary of course ;)
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline leese43

  • Member
  • Posts: 257
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2009, 06:41:48 PM »
Oops that went wrong lol. sorry for 2 posts
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

Offline komnaes

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  • Posts: 1,893
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2009, 09:13:05 PM »
That's a sensitive topic to me.. I agree though mothers are mostly able to handle whatever you (us, the sons and daughters) throw at them and in time they'd adjust, one way or another. In my case I kept it from her for a while, thinking that I would hide as long as I could, only to be busted. She found out by "noticing" me behaving oddly, and as most worrying mothers would do, she started going through things in my room, and she found the clinic appointment paper I hid between a very thick book in my bookcase among hundreds of them.

OK I guess my family is a bit "unusual" - that my mother IS HIV+, got it from my father, a LTS (been diagnosed for 13 yrs now, probably been infected 15-16 yrs) and my father died of untreated AIDS. Now everyone in the family know. My sister oddly calms about it ("wow, I actually expected that you got it years ago") and my brother not so much ("Why now after all these years man?"), and his wife is the only one in the immediate family that still doesn't know about our mother and me because my brother still can't figure out how to tell her. And it's a burden he's to carry.

Now I am not entirely sure if she hadn't found out herself whether I would still not have told her... but now that she knows, I find that (1) my life is easier, mentally healthier for not having to hide it from her/family, (2) though we still don't talk much about it, it's easier to deal with hers and my own mental well-beings. My conclusion is also that what I thought were good reasons for not telling her (i.e. not wanting her to worry, she'd die if she found out, etc) were my invited excuses.. it was me who couldn't deal with telling her.
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2009, 09:25:11 PM »

Now I am not entirely sure if she hadn't found out herself whether I would still not have told her...

I am.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline komnaes

  • Member
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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2009, 09:31:17 PM »
I am.

Yes very possibly, and I would have called you a few more times half way across the world while having those panic attacks! But let's tear this girl apart in another thread Ms. Philicia.. ;)
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,245
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2009, 10:21:21 PM »
I was at my mom's house for a visit tonight.  We were talking about something and it led to talking about difficult topics.  I mentioned this thread and how hard it was to bring it up the first time in the hospital.  You can't imagine how shocked I was when she told me that she figured something was wrong and that it might be HIV.  I thought I was hiding it well, but evidently it showed.  On the day that I disclosed, she told her boss that she needed to leave early, as I was in the hospital with pneumonia.  He told her that she needed to leave immediately to come see me.  Her boss is gay, as is his brother.  His brother's partner had just passed away and his HIV had come up in conversation (he quit taking his meds, which nobody realized until he was deathly ill).  She said that she could tell something was wrong when we talked (months before I got sick) and how I didn't look her in the eye the same.  She said that she knew that it was something serious since my 'behavior' went on for several months.  Damn, and I thought I hid it so well!
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2009, 10:28:50 PM »

 Damn, and I thought I hid it so well!


David, we mothers really do have eyes in the backs of our heads. They grow during the first pregnancy. ;) ;D
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline David_CA

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2009, 10:52:11 PM »
David, we mothers really do have eyes in the backs of our heads. They grow during the first pregnancy. ;) ;D
It's funny you mention that!  I remember one time in particular when my mom said she had eyes in the back of her head.  She had dozed off in a chair while we were visiting relatives.  I sneaked up close behind her and started looking in her hair.  She woke up and asked me what I was doing.  "Looking for the eyes in the back of your head" I replied.  Children can be so literal!
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2009, 11:11:09 PM »
This is a thread I have mixed emotions about. And I am just talking from the disclosure point because I have no idea what it's like to be gay. But I have seen some of the struggles that gay people go through. I guess I am that one person who believes in disclosing at one's leisure or when you feel comfortable enough to do it. I don't feel anyone can tell someone when they should do it or if they should do it. And I feel some comments here have been very judgemental to say the least.

I mean it's great if you can tell your family, there's no backlash, and everyone is supportive. Not all families are that way. Mine wasn't or I should say not everyone was supportive. My parents were great, though they found out through someone else when I wish it would've been me.I use to live in a small town and word traveled fast. But they still supported me. My sisters, the opposite, no support, just grounds for them to "put me out there" in order to try to make themselves look good.

So to the OP, I would say it's your call, you're the one that has to live with the decision. You know how it is going to affect you and your family's well being, not us. I wish you luck no matter which path you choose to follow.
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
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Offline erasfred

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2009, 12:59:04 AM »
No you are not wrong. That being said I will give you my point of view.

I only told my parents two years after being diagnosed. And I am going for 6 years from diagnoses now. And as I said to Mom on her question of why I did not do it earlier was this " I first had to come to grips with it myself. How can I help them to understand the situation I am in without me exactly knowing myself what I am dealing with."

So what I am saying to you is make sure that you yourself know the ins and outs of living with HIV before disclosing to them if and when you decide to do it. Because as much as you are going to expect support from them you are going to have to support them in giving them the necessary information in understanding what is happening to you and to your body. and if you yourself do not know, what are you going to say top them?

Hope this also helps.

Offline tommy246

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2009, 02:30:24 AM »
I must say no one knows there son like a mother they are just to wise or kind to say anything sometimes you cant hide anything from them .
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline Ann

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2009, 05:54:46 AM »
It's funny you mention that!  I remember one time in particular when my mom said she had eyes in the back of her head.  She had dozed off in a chair while we were visiting relatives.  I sneaked up close behind her and started looking in her hair.  She woke up and asked me what I was doing.  "Looking for the eyes in the back of your head" I replied.  Children can be so literal!

My daughter did something similar when she was little and I'd fallen asleep on the floor in front of the telly. I suspected what she was up to, but she just said "nuthin!" when I asked. I knew a few days later though, when I mentioned about the famous eyes and she said "no you don't, I looked!" ;D

Having said that, you could have knocked my mother over with a feather when my sister came out to the family. I'd always known about her even before I knew what words to use to discuss the concept - I've had gaydar for as long as I can remember. My mother was clueless, but she was never very clued in to how either of us was feeling or experiencing. My mother was a bit wrapped up in her own issues.

I never bothered to disclose my hiv status to my mother, which many here might think strange given that I'm so out about my status. Thing is, I've lived on another continent from her for nearly 20 years now and I can count the amount of phone conversations I've had with her during that time on one hand. We're not close and I just can't be bothered to tell her as I know she wouldn't be supportive at all. She wasn't supportive about my hep C diagnosis, and hiv won't be any different at all. There's just no point. My family is on the Rock now and between them and my friends, I've got all the support I need.

Families can be tricky and for those of you who have loving, supportive families, count yourself lucky and let them know about your hiv. For those who don't have supportive families, I can understand why you don't want to or just don't want to bother.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline iking2009

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2009, 12:30:49 PM »
This is a thread I have mixed emotions about. And I am just talking from the disclosure point because I have no idea what it's like to be gay. But I have seen some of the struggles that gay people go through. I guess I am that one person who believes in disclosing at one's leisure or when you feel comfortable enough to do it. I don't feel anyone can tell someone when they should do it or if they should do it. And I feel some comments here have been very judgemental to say the least.

I mean it's great if you can tell your family, there's no backlash, and everyone is supportive. Not all families are that way. Mine wasn't or I should say not everyone was supportive. My parents were great, though they found out through someone else when I wish it would've been me.I use to live in a small town and word traveled fast. But they still supported me. My sisters, the opposite, no support, just grounds for them to "put me out there" in order to try to make themselves look good.

So to the OP, I would say it's your call, you're the one that has to live with the decision. You know how it is going to affect you and your family's well being, not us. I wish you luck no matter which path you choose to follow.

Thank u so much...
"One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory."
-- Rita Mae Brown

Offline iking2009

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2009, 12:32:14 PM »
I must say no one knows there son like a mother they are just to wise or kind to say anything sometimes you cant hide anything from them .

I completely agree.
"One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory."
-- Rita Mae Brown

Offline max123

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2009, 10:06:16 PM »
i had an experience yesterday that reminded me of part of we have discussed here...educating others about hiv.

i went to the ophthalmologist, and my preliminary work done was by his technician, a younger military trained guy. the technician, in taking my history, acknowledged that i had indicated that i was poz on my intake sheet. then he went on to say that he had only seen two cases involving poz folks (that he knew about anyway ;) ). we ended up having a great discussion about hiv, and he even shared his own "hiv scare" story with me. it was one of those spontaneous discussions where everything comfortably fell into place. it felt surprisingly good, considering this was my first 'public' disclosure. additionally, the tech came away from the convo with a better idea about hiv and the poz patient. i guess we made a small difference in each other's lives. trite, but just thought i'd share.

max
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline prettyfighting1

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2009, 10:52:48 PM »
3months after my diagnosis i tell to my family, and im glad and happy that i tell them, im on meds now, i see the love and care  from my family, i never been sick, i have hiv but its just the virus on my body, they are helping me to take good care of myself so i will never get sick and they used to alarm their cell phone, and reminding me thats its time to take my meds.. im happy that i tell them, now its not my secrect, its a big FAMILY secrect..hehehe

Offline wow1969

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2009, 11:30:03 PM »
How sad that so many of you, think so little of your parents and the role you play, in thier lives. Whatever issues you may have with your parents, I can tell you, as a parent myself, that you are seriously under estimating your parents. Thier is no greater love or power than that between mother and child and to just ignore your parents, when you have a real issue, can be horribly unfair. The reason is simple. I would give my life for my daughter and if I knew she could not tell me something, I would be crushed.

i've debated for a few days regarding whether to post anything on this thread as i don't want to cause trouble for anyone but this particular posting kept popping back in my head ... after reading  this thread a few times and seeing everyong defending telling parents because "we kids" have made assumptions regarding how they will respond and that we need to give them a chance is extremely egocentric

just because there are parents on here that would be crushed if their children didn't disclose this onformation  - does not mean that all parents will be crushed  - just because there are "kids" on here who have told their parents and it's been wonderful and loving - doesn't mean that we all get that

handing out this information to people struggling with telling parents can have some serious effects ... whether or not anyone tells another of their status is a personal decision and should be based on the relationship you have with the person you intend disclosing too

to the rest of the world it looks like i grew up in a loving upperclass family ... but i can tell you that what the rest of the world sees with my family and what i see are different ... i know that if i told my parents after the way my mother reacted when i told her i was gay ( haven't spoken to the woman in years) .... i would banished and my mother would probably tell me it was a punishment for the way i've lived my life (being gay)

just because some of the writers on this site have had good experiences doesn't mean everyone will and each of us has to make the decision to tell in our own time ... don't get me wrong, i'm not mad at any of you have had great family responses ... to be completely honest, i'm jealous and it makes me sad to know that i didn't get that lucky ...

decide who you will tell and decide why you want to tell them ...

Offline ThomasHopper

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2009, 11:40:19 PM »
I haven't told my parents (and don't plan to) mainly because they are in their 70s and live 1000 miles away.  There's nothing they can do but worry about me, and they don't understand the disease (I didn't either until I got it).  I just don't want to put them through that in their golden years. 

My sister and some of my close friends know and are a great support group.

I think who you tell is your own personal decision.  There is really no right or wrong in this unless you are putting someone else at risk. 

Offline tommy246

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2009, 02:52:52 AM »
Summing up the treads its seems there is no write or wrong some people need to tell some dont ,some parents might be crushed by not knowing and some would be crushed by knowing were all different.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline minismom

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2009, 07:27:35 AM »
I, of course, didn't have the option of waiting for Mim to disclose her status to Hubby and me.  Nor did she have the option of who she did and didn't want to know.  In our situation, it was the exact opposite - we had to disclose her status to her and then had to figure out who did and didn't "need" to know.  It wasn't an easy decision to make.  We knew that each of our disclosures would have a direct impact not only on her but on our entire family.

 In the end, we chose to disclose.  Our reasoning was simple - we didn't want our daughter to be the dark family secret.  We didn't want her to be ashamed of herself or her virus. I couldn't imagine the stress of her - and her siblings (and us) - having to keep it a secret. The only way we could make her feel unashamed is to be unashamed ourselves. We wanted to surround her with the biggest support net we could.  And, it would be easier for her, and for us, if those who chose to reject her did it while she was young and unaware.  We wanted to "weed out" those who simply couldn't hack it and educate those who chose to stay.  I was suprised how many people we underestimated. 

(To be totally honest, I must admit  here that I have no idea if Hubby's family knows about Mim's HIV or not.  They don't bother knowing my kids' names, so it wouldn't suprise me.  It also doesn't bother me.)

I know that there are only 2 other people on this board in our situation.  I understand that everyone else has a pre- and post-HIV life.  But also understand that if Mim had contracted this virus in her adult life, I can't imagine her going through what she's been through ( 6 gram-negative blood infections, endless blood tests, broviac placement, all the pneumonia, med problems, 5 mths in the hospital, diabetes, CP, all the MRI's, spinal taps, CAT scans, vision problems, heart and liver issues, knee and hip joint deteriation, high cholesterol / triglycerides, memory problems,  brain myelanization problems, physical, speech, developmental, and occupational therapy, and yes, Mecch, wasting) by herself - too scared to tell us.  The thought breaks my heart. 

I agree with Philly - as mum, I bore the brunt of doctor's appointments, blood tests, results, decisions,  disclosures, educating myself and others,  and moving into the hospital with Mim for 5mths while leaving my other 2 children in the care of my parents and my husband (and the guilt that that brought along with it).  I never knew what I was capable of, how strong I was, until I had to be for my child. 

You don't want to worry your parents?  Newsflash - they've worried about you your entire life. Let them know. Let them grieve for you if they need to grieve.  Let them get angry if they need to get angry.  Let them be scared, stomp, slam, throw things, cry, scream, pound. Then, let them just love you.

Mum
www.watoto.com
www.MotherBearProject.org
"Whichever way you throw me, i will stand"
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today...it's already tomorrow in Australia"  Charles Schultz

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2009, 08:53:33 AM »
Of course your situation is entirely different. Your parents didn't know from the time of your birth that you were infected or gay. No lifetime to adjust and accept your homosexuality, let alone your disease. My only suggestion is you wait a bit until you're comfortable, no matter what your decision may be.

Offline MWCLTonline

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2009, 03:21:46 PM »
As someone who went thru 2 Coming OUTs with my family, I agree with my brother who always said to me that "Blood is thicker than water..."  My family, like it or not, have been with me thru both and I agree w/ minismom; Let them love you as best they can and together you can learn and grow older...

Last Saturday...
 SoBankBeacon(Me): I guess this is gonna be like waitin' for the cable guy...  They sd Sat but no specific time
Frank (my bro): waitin for who
SoBankBeacon: exterminator
Frank: OIC
SoBankBeacon: sposed to inspect the whole bldg and let us know what to do next, if anything
SoBankBeacon: So what's up?
Frank: nodda just chillin. I was up late last night and still got up and went into work this morn so pretty tired
SoBankBeacon: did you see SGU last nite or Survivor Thurs?
Frank: Surv yes  SGU no it's on the DVR
SoBankBeacon: russell may finally be on his way out
Frank: yea I think so, that will be sweet.   you been watching the gay bros on amazing race
SoBankBeacon: I missed SGU too so i'm hopin I had the DVR set
SoBankBeacon: yep,  sam & dan
Frank: yea, they could win it
SoBankBeacon: that wud be cool - much better role models than naked Richard Hatch!
SoBankBeacon: still waitin' for the exterminator/inspector   
Frank: he aint comin at this point i don't think
SoBankBeacon: means I'm stuck till I can call the office on Monday...
Frank: why is that
SoBankBeacon: well, until I know what it is I saw and/or what to do next, I just figure I wudn't leave and carry them away or do more until I know...
SoBankBeacon: BearCat Brawl across the street again this wknd 
Frank: ????
SoBankBeacon: new girls across street are UC alums & they have big game tonite...
Frank: bed bugs?  mom would freak
SoBankBeacon: She sd, btr u than me; let me know how it turns out...
Frank: hahahaha
SoBankBeacon: So now that I've talked to people and looked at all this stuff online, I'm not sure if they are or aren't.  W/ my luck, it'll be something else that's worse - bed lice
Frank: oh geesh
SoBankBeacon: What I've seen here don't look like what's online, they look more like lil razor edged paint specs
Frank: interesting, where did you find them at in the apt
SoBankBeacon: some tiny lil bug that gets into old houses w/ lead and...
SoBankBeacon: I looked down and saw one scurry across the arm of my orange chair and saw one crawlin' on my white sock when I crossed my leg
Frank: I hope I didn't pick any of them and and bring them home with me
SoBankBeacon: and then when I changed the sheet I saw a few on top of the box spring (previously sprayed & bagged in defense) next to the baseboard, I vacumned & sprayed around the baseboard and then sprayed the orange chair w/ alcohol/febreeze, by then I had talked to Clint/HlthDept and the landlord and this was all done by the time you got here so I'm sure we were 'safe'
SoBankBeacon: ironic metaphor for HIV/testing!
SoBankBeacon: The Navy Has the Highest HIV Rate of All the Branches of the Military
http://aids.about.com/b/2009/11/07/the-navy-has-the-highest-hiv-rate-of-all-the-branches-of-the-military.htm
SoBankBeacon: Gee, and I thought there weren't any gays in the military   
SoBankBeacon: Greetings!  Happy TGIF...the 13th

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, it's Sunday morning (11/15)  and here I am pondering why...  After I've survived and lived thru all the other stuff I have, it comes down to me & these damn critters
 
Pisces  You need to figure out what's important to you and what's not. It's time to take stock of what's going on in your life. The good news is that your significant other, trusted friend or mentor is more than willing to talk about it, and they'll have just the perspective you need. All you have to do is call that all-important meeting. Don't be afraid to put your heart and soul on the line.
 
Think of today as a time of restoration for yourself, dear Pisces, in which you can come to a point of great ease and comfort. Trust yourself and the people around you. Open your eyes to the reality of the situation at hand. If you are currently working through some major changes in your life, make sure you have faith that whatever happens will work out to your benefit.
 
Just when you thought you had everything planned out and working smoothly, dear Pisces, (love) LIFE!  comes in and clogs up the works. Suddenly your attention is diverted and your concentration flies out the window as that dazzling being A BedBUG!  catches your eye. This could be a good thing or a bad thing,  depending on how you view the situation. Remember that both aspects of your life are important, and the key now is to find a healthy balance between the two.
 
Quote of the Day:
"Freedom means the opportunity to be what we never thought we would be." -Daniel J. Boorstin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
Hhmm...   "WTF: Now!  I'm gonna Live...!?"  For this ...  I need a 'cookie'...

See! They don't have a right to know anything about me, but I sure am glad they do...
And you're not bein' selfish, you're normal  ;D
Michael
"HIV is something you live with every day for the rest of your life. You may never die of It, but you will always die with it..."

Offline iking2009

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2009, 05:31:18 PM »


just because some of the writers on this site have had good experiences doesn't mean everyone will and each of us has to make the decision to tell in our own time ... don't get me wrong, i'm not mad at any of you have had great family responses ... to be completely honest, i'm jealous and it makes me sad to know that i didn't get that lucky ...

decide who you will tell and decide why you want to tell them ...

So so true...Alot of  people here are close-minded & dont understand that everyones situation isnt the same.
"One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory."
-- Rita Mae Brown

Offline BT65

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2009, 07:47:59 PM »
.Alot of  people here are close-minded & dont understand that everyones situation isnt the same.

Iking, I wouldn't say the people who've had good experiences with families are necessarily close minded.  Truly, would you like it if we called you close minded because you have a different thought?
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2009, 09:34:02 PM »
So so true...Alot of  people here are close-minded & dont understand that everyones situation isnt the same.
Uh, so then why did you start this thread and solicit the opinions of others?  If you knew what answer you wanted you could have saved us all the trouble.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline David_CA

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2009, 09:34:43 AM »
Iking, I wouldn't say the people who've had good experiences with families are necessarily close minded.  Truly, would you like it if we called you close minded because you have a different thought?

Well said, BT.  I'll add that it's pretty unfair to call those of us who've disclosed 'close minded'.  Don't forget, we didn't know, for a fact, how our disclosure would go over before we disclosed.  It's true that I had a pretty good idea that my mom would accept my HIV status (and my earlier disclosure of being gay).  People can often surprise you... in both good and bad ways.  Sure, it would / could have been easier for many of us to not have had to tell our families that we're HIV+, but it was often the right thing to do.  Regardless, I'll risk saying that none of us looked forward to it and that it wasn't particularly easy to do. 

Uh, so then why did you start this thread and solicit the opinions of others?  If you knew what answer you wanted you could have saved us all the trouble.
Exactly.  Perhaps the question would have been better asked as "How do you know if you should tell your family that you're HIV+?"  or "What have your experiences been with disclosing to family members?" 

Of course those who don't have a close relationship with their family might should give disclosure some extra thought.  If a family member has 'issues' and doesn't handle any problem well, perhaps disclosure won't be of any benefit.  However, if an individual is struggling with wanting to disclose but isn't sure how to do it, or if they even should, that's a different story.  If one feels guilty for not disclosing, one probably should.  Most of us are adults living away from home.  Although we may not want to disappoint or upset our families, we have to do what we feel is right and honest.  For me, it wasn't right or honest to not disclose, so I did.  If my parents hadn't handled it like they did, I'd have to have accept that too, but I would know that disclosure was out of my mind and that I was honest with them.  I don't like keeping secrets from those I care about.
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline WildcatCC

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Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2009, 01:13:24 PM »
I agree with those that say only you can decide this. You know the inner-workings of your family and what impact this type of news would have on them.

For me, I didn't much get a chance to tell my family. They pretty much told me. When I was rushed to the hospital over a year ago after collapsing at home from what would later be diagnosed as PCP, my SO called my Dad and my sister. I had been estranged from my mother and other sister at the time so he didn't call them.

When I woke up in the hospital, my family was there. My sister flew in from NH. My dad and his wife drove down from central Florida. I can't adequately describe the feeling of comfort having my family around me - that they would drop everything and come to my aid. I had not been particularly close to my dad or sister (the good one).  Yet there they were. No questions asked. My SO filled them in on everything while I was out of it for those first few days. They knew it all. And they never questioned it - they were scared, concerned then later proud that I recovered so quickly.

My sister stayed with me for 3 weeks - dropping everything she had going on in her own life. My dad stayed a week and drove down every weekend for 2 months. They helped my SO with everything from cooking (he can't) to laundry (he shouldn't) to yard work (oh no) to  ...  My sister kept a journal of all my meds, my follow-up appointments, what I should/should not eat, etc.

I've grown so much closer to my father and my sister (and my SO) as a result of everything.

Recently, I started a series of conversations with my mother and my other sister. Our rift, borne of religious views and judgment, now seemed immaterial as I desired to have some sort of relationship with them.

Sure enough, they've come to realize that we all need to put our differences aside and move on with life. My mother's only regret was that she was not able to be there in my greatest time of need.

My SO and I recently traveled to New England for my mother's 70th birthday - a trip I had not made in 7 years. My mother was so surprised at how healthy I looked she weeped. It was then that I knew I had a lot of educating to do.
Apr  08 - Diagnosed
Apr  08  cd4 8, vl 150k
Meds: Prezista/Norvir/Truvada
June 08 cd4 250, vl 1600
Aug  08 cd4 275, vl 450
Meds: Atripla
Nov  08  cd4  386, vl 255
Jan   09  cd4  415, vl 2100 (spike?)
Feb   09  cd4 460, vl 212
May   09  cd4 515, vl 1200
Aug   09  cd4 717, vl 1535 % 23
Sept  09  cd4 535  vl 1710 % 18
Oct   09  genotype shows mutation. Discussing w/ ID Doc
Nov  09   cd4 480  vl 650   % 19
Dec  09 genotype slight mutation to Epivir and Retrovir
Jan 10   cd4 508 vl 250 (21%)  low vitamin d - on supplement 2000 iu/day
Mar 15 Change to Isentress and Truvada
May 5 cd4 498 vl 1485
June 16 cd4 550 vl undect!!!! (finally dammit)

Offline deibster

  • Member
  • Posts: 153
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2010, 10:54:32 PM »
I'm surprised no one has written on here in 6 months. I was married with children. My mother knew that I was bisexual - I told her - while my father was alive, but I didn't come out until after he passed away. I told my Mom & siblings about my HIV after a year. That wasn't a huge problem. The problem was when to tell my children; I didn't want them to hear it from someone else. My father was seriously ill when I was in college & in the Navy & it was always there in the back of my mind & affected my concentration & performance. So, I didn't want to tell my kids when they were in school.
Like leatherman says, I didn't want to wait & tell my children when I was sick. I told them recently & it went well (they already knew that I was on a lot of medication). They are 30 & 27 yrs old. My son is in the Air Force & I waited to make sure he wasn't going into pilot training before I told them, because of my experience with my dad's illness. Their biggest complaint, or question, was why didn't you tell us sooner. When I explained my reason they were okay with it. I'm more peaceful now that they know & I won't have to tell them over the phone when I have to change my regimen & don't feel well. Hugs deibster
Poz since Dec 1992. Meds since 1995. Disability since 2005.

Prezista/Norvir, Epzicom, Cytomel, Prevacid, pravastatin, Fenofibrate, Remeron, Zoloft, Concerta, doxazosin, Allegra180, Nasocort, Centrum, Flax Oil, Fish Oil

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,198
  • Ninja Please
Re: Am I Wrong???
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2010, 10:58:03 PM »
Thread necromancy is creepeh.

MtD

 


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