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Author Topic: Early Aging -- New York magazine article  (Read 23985 times)

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Offline Nestor

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  • What we love, we shall grow to resemble.
Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2009, 05:05:08 PM »
Both were discussed in the New York Magazine article, and so I suppose both are being discussed in this thread.  As someone said, perhaps the article tried to discuss too many things at one time. 
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline max123

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2009, 05:33:34 PM »
wow, this is a loaded thread  :o

i for one, can appreciate everyone's posted point of view regarding the subject matter. it's a sensitive issue. the media does what the media does...sensationalize. however, the cold hard facts are that science does appear to support the facts that both hiv and the meds designed to control it have the potential to hasten neuro-cognitive disorders. while today's med treatment options are better than in years past, they are not perfect or side effect free, nor are they a cure.  as a newbie to both hiv and the "when to start meds" dilemma, this potential, among others, is a scary thing, but one that i must accept and move past. for me, it's about learning to keep myself as healthy as possible without meds for as long as i can safely do so.

prevention, testing, treatment and the very real consequences of all need to be put out there for all to see, smell, taste, grasp & understand. personally, i would hope that the majority of us newly diagnosed pozzies and veterans alike, would rather take a proactive stance and know the potentials of what we are up against so we can make informed lifestyle choices for ourselves. sticking our heads up our asses & enjoying the view will offer little help for the long haul. it's not about simply popping a pill and everything is going to be fine...in fact, far from it.

as concluded on numerous threads here, no two hiv cases are exactly alike. some people progress faster & some slower. some have low cd4 counts and viral loads versus the typical inverse relationship seen. logically, the potential for developing secondary neuro-cognitive complications would also follow suit in this regard...generally speaking, be unpredictable. genetics, lifestyle and additional risk factors would likely dictate neuro-cognitive complication progression to some degree, as seen in hiv infection itself.

breaking it down:
for neuro-cognitive impairment, we know that the side effects of some hiv meds are hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia and increased insulin resistance. hyperlipidemia and hypercholesterolemia, in turn, can cause reduced micro-vascular blood flow to vital brain tissue with the resulting factor being brain cell death (vascular dementia). insulin resistance can cause an increase in amyloid plaque formation in the brain (as also seen in alzheimer's), causing a tangling of the neuro-transmission pathways in the brain. inflammatory chemicals caused by hiv in brain tissue (a known reservoir) can also interfere with normal neuro-chemical messengers, delaying normal neuro-transmission. putting two & two together, this is pretty compelling logical evidence that meds can inherently carry some degree of provocation.

below are some cool & simple links that may provide some additional scientific data for those interested. while the last three are published on an alzheimer's site, the disease processes noted are universal.

best of neuro-cognitive health to all  ;)

max

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/dementias/detail_dementia.htm

http://www.hbo.com/alzheimers/science-the-problem-of-cholesterol.html

http://www.hbo.com/alzheimers/science-diabetes-and-insulin-resistance.html

http://www.hbo.com/alzheimers/science-vascular-dementia-and-alzheimers-disease.html


1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline BT65

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2009, 06:46:38 PM »
Max, is that what you think we do-put our heads up our asses?
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline bocker3

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2009, 07:08:52 PM »
Max, is that what you think we do-put our heads up our asses?

I don't think that was what he was saying - my take was he was pointing out that one has to be aware of risks and issues from HIV and meds as well as things we do to help.  Perhaps you should reread and be a little less defensive --  try to not take things so personally.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Nestor

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2009, 07:55:39 PM »
BT65, Thank you for your advice and perspective; I partly agree.  In fact I don't take any supplements at all, except for cod liver oil and occasionally some brewer's yeast.  For myself, I'm interested mostly in real, whole foods.   Why take garlic pills when real garlic is abundant and good?  Why take fish oil when you can eat lots of fish?  

 If you're warning us against the health results or economic cost of going overboard on supplements, I would agree 100%, and if you're saying not to have unrealistic expectations I would definitely agree with that.  

I also agree, very strongly, with the implication that there are more important things we can be doing with our money and time and energy.  I really have to watch out for that myself.  I'm preparing for grad school and I'm supposed to be reading a heap of books and learning foreign languages and getting student loan applications in order, and instead sometimes I'll spend hours reading about coconut oil or Co-enzyme Q10 or the side effects of various anti-retrovirals and then I'll think "this really is not what I'm supposed to be doing with my energy."

In fact, the message one takes from this article might be the opposite: not "obsess about preventing bone loss" but "live all you can now".  

BUT to leap from "it won't cure AIDS" to "there's no point in even hoping that some of these things will defend us from dementia or bone loss" seems to me rather like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  For one thing, the articles to which Elf gave us links said things like the following:  

"More than a dozen epidemiological studies have reported that reduced levels or intake of omega-3 fatty acids or fish consumption is associated with increased risk for age-related cognitive decline or dementia such as Alzheimer's disease (AD). Increased dietary consumption or blood levels of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) appear protective for AD and other dementia in multiple epidemiological studies..."

and:

"Numerous observational studies demonstrate a positive correlation between a high intake of antioxidants and better cognitive function in the elderly"

That these things do not amount to "100% proof" hardly seems to me to justify splashing cold water in the face of someone trying to derive from it reasonable hope and an informed agenda for maintaining his or her own health.  In fact, I think reading such things (in moderation) and adding fish and anti-oxidant containing stuff to one's diet (again, in some moderation) is a highly reasonable thing to be doing.  

If you once believed that natural remedies would 'cure AIDS' you were more optimisitc than I have ever been; if you now believe that none of it is of any use you are more pessimistic than I hope I shall ever be.  

Of the shoe-box full of supplements which you once took, you say that "And it did nothing for my health."  Without having any idea what sort of supplements they were, I of course cannot comment.  But can you even be sure of that?  You mention 20 years with HIV, and you are not only still here but working and writing these messages, which means that you're doing better than some of the people mentioned in that article.  Isn't it even slightly possible that some of those supplements made the tiniest contribuition to that?  

And because some supplements surely don't do much, or even do some harm, does that mean that all of them, and all natural remedies, are equally pointless?  There's another thread in which someone is talking about all-raw veganism and someone else came along and compared it to drinking one's own urine.  I'm no fan of all-raw veganism, but the implication that all non-pharmaceutical remedies are equal, and equally pointless, disturbed me.  

In fact every one of us, pos and neg, should be eating far better than we do.  Anecdotal evidence, common sense, and my own experience suggest to me that people who eat well are likely to be less depressed, more energetic, and healthier than they would be if they had eaten less well.  I'm sometimes amazed at all the HIV-negative people I know who are burdened with depression or cholesterol or blood pressure or diabetes or whatever--as I said, sometimes it seems as if I'm in better health than most of the HIV-negative people I know.  

I think my criterion is this: if it's something that I would not mind doing anyway, or that has broad possible health benefits, then I'll do it.  Does bitter melon, or do shiitake mushrooms, really do anything against HIV?  I don't know, but they're basically healthy anyway, and they're good things to incorporate into a diet, so why not?  Why not eat lots of tuna and salmon?  Does it hurt me to gravitate towards recipes with lots of garlic and ginger and turmeric and?  Even if the studies Elf has linked to turn out to be disappointing, it won't have hurt me to eat those things, and probably it will have been of some use.  Now if, on the other hand, some study suggested something extreme or unpleasant or potentially dangerous or expensive, my criteria would become far more stringent.  

Carousel says:

"In the same way that I didn't worry about dementia, Alzheimer's or any other degenerative disorder when I was well, I'm not going to worry my pretty little head on it now, I think."

My experience has been different.  I sure wish I had never gotten HIV, but I think one of several silver linings is that it's forced me to take nutrition and health seriously while it's still not too late.  In the past few years I've educated myself a lot about health and nutrition and I think I see huge improvements in my life compared to the past--I'm less depressed, have more energy, feel better.  Unlike all my negative friends who never thought about health a day in their lives, blithely eating the Standard American Diet, until suddenly out of the blue they had diabetes or high blood pressure or whatever.  

My final take on the article: I'm sure glad I didn't see it shortly after being diagnosed poz!  It would have terrified me.  
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline MitchMiller

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2009, 11:44:57 PM »
I finally read the article.  There was another very similar article written about a year ago with less emphasis on the neurological symptoms of AIDs.  Sounds like the meds if your fully virally suppressed; and the virus otherwise.  Can't seem to win

From the fourth section of the article:

But in many cases of dementia, there are no signs of viral activity around the brain, suggesting other factors may be at play. At the Manhattan HIV Brain Bank at Mount Sinai, researchers have dissected the skull contents of 250 volunteers who agreed to a series of psychological interviews and neurological exams, then promised to hand over their brains at death. (One is the gift of Fred Gormley, a felicitous writer who toiled with me years ago at the now-defunct New York Native; he wrote about his life as a brain donor before his death from AIDS complications in 2002.) According to Dr. Susan Morgello, who directs the lab, most people who showed signs of dementia while alive do not have evidence of HIV in their autopsied brain. What they do have in common, she says, is evidence of persistent inflammation, which alone could account for the cognitive damage.

I still reiterate my own experience is that the meds cause my brain to experience inflammation.  Anti-inflammatory drugs make a definite difference, aspirin more so than ibupropen. 

Before I was on meds, I really had bad tinnitus and brain inflammation.  I was also rapidly experiencing onset of dementia (had trouble verbalizing and expressing my thoughts, a lot of trouble concentrating)... occurring just nine months after infection.  Meds helped a lot, but over time meds have increasingly been causing inflammation.  What's really strange is that the inflammation seems worse if I take aspirin for a couple days, then go off it.   Maybe we should all be on that one aspirin a day routine???  We should definitely be pushing it on the cardio workouts since vigorous exercise has been shown to reduce immunological inflammatory responses.

I now have bouts of mental "white outs." akin to the feeling one gets when their making a public speech and suddenly seize up... where their mind goes blank.  When I'm ask questions in public where I have to give personal info, sometimes my brain just seizes up and I can't remember my phone number.  I pause, relax, then it all comes flowing through and I'm fine.

My latest new thing is tincture of the green hulls of black walnuts. The active ingredient has been shown to "arouse" latent virus in the lab.  What I've noticed after taking it for nearly a week is that I am able to think more clearly.  This could be the placebo effect or simple coincidence... maybe just the ethyl alcohol in it??   However, it also seems to make my head ring louder, although I take it w/my meds.

Offline BT65

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2009, 05:55:55 AM »
Nestor, it's been said by nutritionists, and I agree that we should get most of our healthy vitamins from food.  So, I totally agree with the eating fish, garlic etc. thing.  It may appear that I'm as healthy as a horse, but that's not necessarily the case.  I have severe neuropathy in my feet, lipodystrophy, avascular necrosis in both knees, Insulin-dependent diabetes that happened just 10 years ago,  have had to get dentures, and have osteoporosis.  And sometimes, I'll read an article all the way through, and someone asks me what I'm reading about, and I can't tell them, because I just don't know.  The supplements I was taking I can't even remember the names of, it's been that long ago.  And back in those days, my friends and I were trying everything we could to hang onto life.  I went through a horrible period of wasting with constant diarrhea and got down to 80 lbs (and I'm 5'9").  So, my conclusion about taking supplements/whatever is, talk to your doctor first to make sure they aren't interfering with any other part of one's regimen.  I do not spend copious amounts of money on those things anymore.  They may "help" in some things, but they do not "cure" things, nor really totally prevent things from happening.   

Mitch, I'm glad you said what you did. I'm on Ibuprofen, and was just wondering last night about aspirin. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline David_CA

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2009, 08:48:01 AM »
All this talk about (brain) inflammation has got me wondering.  How would somebody know if they were suffering from it?  It seems like aspirin or ibuprofen somewhat alleviate the symptoms, but aren't they contraindicated with most HIV meds and hard on ones liver (especially ibuprofen)?
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2009, 09:18:14 AM »
All this talk about (brain) inflammation has got me wondering.  How would somebody know if they were suffering from it?  It seems like aspirin or ibuprofen somewhat alleviate the symptoms, but aren't they contraindicated with most HIV meds and hard on ones liver (especially ibuprofen)?

aspirin, ibuprofen, Motrin, Aleve (naproxen), Advil are hard on the kidneys and not recommended when taking Truvada. I suppose it's OK to take once in a while if one has to but best not to make a habit of it.

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is hard on the liver. Again, probably OK once in a while but not on a regular basis.

There is a new version of acetaminophen being studied that is meant to be easier on the liver but it is not approved yet.

Offline max123

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2009, 10:08:20 AM »
hi bt65,

i'm unclear of your reply and it appears that you misinterpreted what i was saying. as bocker suggested, perhaps you should reread my post. his interpretation of what i was saying is exactly on point. as a 20 year survivor yourself who has made a positive correlation between your current maladies and hiv/meds, i'm confident that you would agree with the importance of us pozzies timely knowing what pitfalls we are potentially up against resultant of the disease itself and meds.
 
I have dentures, osteoporosis, and avascular necrosis in both my knees, which has resulted in total loss of cartilage in both, and diabetes.  I feel pretty old every time I stand up.  I've been + for 20 years, diagnosed with Aids for 15, and on meds for like 15 or 16.  So I'm assuming the maladies are a combination of both (being + and long term use of meds).

for clarification, my take on the issue is that far too many people among the general population today seem to minimize the potentially serious complications that come with hiv and, or its treatments. modern hiv meds, although truly a blessing, have seemingly created kind of a false sense of security; that being "don't worry...if you contract hiv, there are meds you can take to control it and live a normal life happily ever after, without consequence." perhaps that is one reason why hiv is on the rise again. as brought up by miss p, you, ann & others, there are potentially some very real consequences to long term arv use. i take the word of those who arrived 'here' before me very seriously. unfortunately, we simply don't know what the long term effects are with modern meds are just yet. as you already know, hiv meds are not a panacea, they're simply the best mode of treatment currently available.

so, my tongue in cheek comment:

prevention, testing, treatment and the very real consequences of all need to be put out there for all to see, smell, taste, grasp & understand. personally, i would hope that the majority of us newly diagnosed pozzies and veterans alike, would rather take a proactive stance and know the potentials of what we are up against so we can make informed lifestyle choices for ourselves. sticking our heads up our asses & enjoying the view will offer little help for the long haul. it's not about simply popping a pill and everything is going to be fine...in fact, far from it.

was geared at supporting the dissemination of important info (such as the article, albeit yes, over-sensationalized, that prompted this thread) to all of us pozzies & visitors here, and to help provoke some active thought in those newly diagnosed, or those who maybe think that all they have to do is blindly take a pill and life will be grand (eg those thread responders that literally acknowledged their "sticking their heads in the sand" and, or 'bliss' positions). remember, knowledge =power!

wishing you a great day  :)

max
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 11:51:26 AM by max123 »
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline TimmyT

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  • Posts: 12
Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2009, 08:04:04 PM »
I agree sometimes there can be too much hysteria in our sensational media of today, but in the case of the NY Mag article about the "The New AIDS crisis" I have to say a little sensationalism might go a long way. If this topic is discussed more in the media, HIV communities, and medical communities, then maybe our legislators and government might throw a little more money in the studying of LTS'ers and the side effects of living longer with HIV. How effective are our anti-retrovirals in crossing the blood/brain barrier? There are large questions that need more answers. Answers come from more funding of studies. I for one want to see these topics dealt with on a larger scale.

Offline max123

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2009, 06:23:51 AM »
Hi Tim,

most definitely agreed!

max
1/86 - 6/08 (annually): neg elisa
7/09: pos elisa/pos wb
8/09: cd4 560, cd4% 35, vl 13,050
12/09: cd4 568, cd4% 33, vl 2,690
4/10: cd4 557, cd4% 29.3, vl 6,440
7/10: cd4 562, cd4% 29.6, vl 3,780

Offline clsoca

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2009, 11:58:57 AM »
I do not buy the early aging argument. I know lots of people in the LA area who have lived with hiv for up to two decades and they all look great. I also know a few who look like shit.

The ones who look like shit never took care of themselves. They consumed too much alcohol, maintained unhealthy diets and were always obese.

Just take a look at Magic Johnson as a case in point. You be the judge.

As Magic says, you have to exercise more than regularly and maintain a perfect diet....bottom line. And Magic is still undetectable.



 
10/07 Infected
11/07 Seroconversion
07/08 Tested Poz
07/08 VL 487  CD4 658  (No Meds)
10/08 VL 286  CD4 724  (No Meds)
01/24/09 VL 30,100   CD4 329 CD4 30% (No Meds)
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02/12/09 VL 52,000   CD4 297 CD4 29%
02/12/09  Started Atripla
04/01/09 VL 60  CD4 667   CD4 48%
06-05-09  VL UD CD4 427   CD4 39%

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2009, 12:29:09 PM »
Yes, I'm sure it's all that simple.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline BT65

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2009, 02:03:22 PM »
Magic is also a fucking millionare, who can afford a personal trainer, the best foods, and a chef to prepare them.  Puh-leeze. ::)
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2009, 02:22:28 PM »
Just take a look at Magic Johnson as a case in point. You be the judge.


 

EXACTLY!!  Have you seen him lately?  He looks like he suffers from side effects caused from longterm antiviral use.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2009, 02:24:48 PM »
The more I read that post the more offended I become.
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2009, 02:30:49 PM »
The more I read that post the more offended I become.

The guys probably a Lakers fan... ;)
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Offline bear60

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2009, 02:33:00 PM »
I have been trying to decide where to put this post, so this spot won the contest.  If you think that HIV is a death sentence, of course you are wrong, especially today. But there are multiple problems with treatment and aging and ultimately death.  So here you go: right out of AIDMEDS itself:

  
July 28, 2008

Life Expectancy With HIV Increases Dramatically



A 20-year-old HIV-positive person starting antiretroviral (ARV) therapy today can expect to live, on average, to the age of 69, according to new calculations published July 26 in The Lancet. The study authors say this is a life expectancy increase of 37 percent over projections for 20-year-olds starting ARVs during the early years of combination treatment.
 
HIV-positive people have frequently asked their health care providers how long they will live with the virus, especially with so many effective ARV options to choose from. Few studies have attempted to answer this question-until now.

To determine life expectancy among HIV-positive patients, an international roster of researchers joined forces and reviewed the medical records of more than 43,000 people living with the virus in the United States, Canada and several European countries. The study participants were split into three groups: 18,587 people who started ARV treatment between 1996 and 1999, 13,914 who started treatment between 2000 and 2002, and 10,854 people who started treatment between 2003 and 2005.

The researchers predicted that a 20-year-old person starting ARV treatment between 1996 and 1999, the early years of combination ARV therapy, could be expected to live an additional 36 years, to the age of 56. This increased significantly, however, as time passed. A 20-year-old who started treatment between 2003 and 2005 was expected to live an additional 49 years, to the age of 69.

The average life expectancy for a 20-year-old who remains HIV negative, at least in industrialized nations, is an additional 60 yearsówith death occurring, on average, at the age of 80.

HIV-positive people who didn't start ARV treatment until their CD4s dropped to 100 were expected to live 10 fewer years than people who started therapy when their CD4s were above 200. The authors also determined that HIV-positive people with a history of injection drug use were expected to live 10 fewer years than those who never used injection drugs.

In a letter in The Lancet commenting on the study, David Cooper, MD, from the University of New South Wales in Sydney, questions whether starting ARV treatment even earlier, at a CD4 count above 500 for instance, may bring life expectancy even closer to normal. Dr. Cooper hopes that the international Strategic Timing of Anti-Retroviral Treatment (START) clinical trial, which is investigating earlier initiation of ARV treatment, will provide the answer.



Search: survival, life expectancy, long-term, antiretroviral, antiretrovirals, ARV, treatment, medications


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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2009, 02:50:46 PM »


  Interesting, so Magic had atleast another 10 years of ball left in him when he retired!  Damn this pisses me off, we were robbed!!
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2009, 03:02:31 PM »
I see poop heading towards a fan  . Jeff , who is running back to the safety of the LTS forum .

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2009, 03:47:54 PM »
I see poop heading towards a fan  . Jeff , who is running back to the safety of the LTS forum .

 I better run too...  I'm going to the safety of... um..  where am I suppose to go?  I guess the Nutrition & HIV forum is my only option!
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Offline mecch

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2009, 03:53:12 PM »
1)  Nobody said the article was nonsense. You LTS are misrepresenting what the criticism has been in this thread.

2)  Did it ever occur to those LTS who are recounting their personal HIV war stories and the "how many I have lost" stories that some recently infected people lived through the same damn times as you, and lost people as well?  Geez. 


ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2009, 04:00:42 PM »
1)  Nobody said the article was nonsense. You LTS are misrepresenting what the criticism has been in this thread.

2)  Did it ever occur to those LTS who are recounting their personal HIV war stories and the "how many I have lost" stories that some recently infected people lived through the same damn times as you, and lost people as well?  Geez. 

On second thought I'll be hiding in the Research News forum.....
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Offline BT65

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2009, 10:04:17 PM »
2)  Did it ever occur to those LTS who are recounting their personal HIV war stories and the "how many I have lost" stories that some recently infected people lived through the same damn times as you, and lost people as well?  Geez. 

But, they personally, in their own bodies, haven't gone through the same things, have they.   So, unless ya been there, ya ain't really got the same experience now, do ya.

I'm with Ms. P.  I'm insulted by the same post, and Mecch's post.  It's like some of the people responding here totally disregard things that us LTS'ers have experienced.  And it's also like we're being chastized, like some people think we should have had some magical power over the virus in our bodies, so we shouldn't be experiencing many of the things we are.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 10:06:50 PM by BT65 »
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2009, 03:16:41 AM »

I'm with Ms. P.  I'm insulted by the same post, and Mecch's post.  It's like some of the people responding here totally disregard things that us LTS'ers have experienced.  And it's also like we're being chastized, like some people think we should have had some magical power over the virus in our bodies, so we shouldn't be experiencing many of the things we are.

Ah, you know the routine darling -- the LTS'ers will now be the guinea pigs for all new "HIV & Aging" special treatment protocols for the next decade, and then the n00bz won't have to deal with anything more than popping a once-a-day pill.  Of course, they'll mutter some thanks to us for our help as they go along their business.

But hey, what do I know?  I just look like shit because I never take care of myself.  It's really my fault.  So sorry to bother everyone with it.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline mecch

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2009, 04:47:06 AM »
I'm with Ms. P.  I'm insulted by the same post, and Mecch's post.  It's like some of the people responding here totally disregard things that us LTS'ers have experienced.  And it's also like we're being chastized, like some people think we should have had some magical power over the virus in our bodies, so we shouldn't be experiencing many of the things we are.

"like we we're being chastized"

No one is chastising LTS or anyone else.  No one disregards anything about a LTS experience.  Well at least I am not.

Some LTS's chastised posters who found the New York article wanting. Referring to pain and sufferring doesn't make an argument better but it certainly makes it personal.  

I tend to agree with Miss P that people now living with HIV for 10, 20, 30 years are of course going to be the test subjects for how to age with the disease.  Them's the breaks.  And of course we appreciate LTS and their experiences.  

When I was growing up, my Mom and Dad would take us kids downtown in August and get us new shoes, a first day of school outfit, and some other new clothes. We had to go to the sensible shoe store - it was expensive and the shoes were well made but not fashionable.  My sisters eventually wanted more fashionable shoes and my father would say "you know, when I was growing up, we had to walk to school barefoot" sounding angry and bitter.  This was always a disagreeable moment because no one was talking about the real issue on the table.

(He suffered and was poor as a kid. He made good and was working everyday to make our lives comfortable and secure. He had the money to buy whatever shoes we might want. She was a girl in school and wanted fashionable things just like all her friends.  and so on and so on, ...  He could have just bought her the fashionable shoes. And she could have cared a bit about his hardships and his current efforts for her. But that's not what happened and everyone was stressed out and disappointed in the result.)



« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 04:53:37 AM by mecch »
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2009, 06:40:22 AM »
1)  Nobody said the article was nonsense. You LTS are misrepresenting what the criticism has been in this thread.

2)  Did it ever occur to those LTS who are recounting their personal HIV war stories and the "how many I have lost" stories that some recently infected people lived through the same damn times as you, and lost people as well?  Geez. 




Thank goodness you're not allowed to post in LTS. Don't you get tired carrying such a big chip on your shoulder?

Offline mecch

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2009, 06:56:33 AM »
That's right, get personal, just like Miss P.  If you all have such insights into my personality why don't you PM me with your analysis, and stick to the topic in this thread.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #79 on: November 07, 2009, 07:08:19 AM »
Mecch, buying shoes, and living with Aids, are two totally different subjects.  I'm a bit surprised that you're comparing the two.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline edfu

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #80 on: November 07, 2009, 07:11:32 AM »
What to do...what to do?  Do I buy the Thom McAnn loafers or should I go for Gucci?   ::)
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #81 on: November 07, 2009, 08:27:43 AM »


  I want a pair of Air Jordans...

  I think we should all focus on the fact that Magic Johnson never had a shoe named after him and Michael Jordan did...  Do you guys think it was because he had the AIDS?
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2009, 08:40:04 AM »
Ah come on guys be fair . If you read what clsoca said its all about how you look . Forget about what going on inside the body and mind of LTS . Its just so ... LA 

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2009, 08:41:23 AM »
hi bt65,

i'm unclear of your reply and it appears that you misinterpreted what i was saying. as bocker suggested, perhaps you should reread my post. his interpretation of what i was saying is exactly on point. as a 20 year survivor yourself who has made a positive correlation between your current maladies and hiv/meds, i'm confident that you would agree with the importance of us pozzies timely knowing what pitfalls we are potentially up against resultant of the disease itself and meds.
 
for clarification, my take on the issue is that far too many people among the general population today seem to minimize the potentially serious complications that come with hiv and, or its treatments. modern hiv meds, although truly a blessing, have seemingly created kind of a false sense of security; that being "don't worry...if you contract hiv, there are meds you can take to control it and live a normal life happily ever after, without consequence." perhaps that is one reason why hiv is on the rise again. as brought up by miss p, you, ann & others, there are potentially some very real consequences to long term arv use. i take the word of those who arrived 'here' before me very seriously. unfortunately, we simply don't know what the long term effects are with modern meds are just yet. as you already know, hiv meds are not a panacea, they're simply the best mode of treatment currently available.

so, my tongue in cheek comment:

prevention, testing, treatment and the very real consequences of all need to be put out there for all to see, smell, taste, grasp & understand. personally, i would hope that the majority of us newly diagnosed pozzies and veterans alike, would rather take a proactive stance and know the potentials of what we are up against so we can make informed lifestyle choices for ourselves. sticking our heads up our asses & enjoying the view will offer little help for the long haul. it's not about simply popping a pill and everything is going to be fine...in fact, far from it.

was geared at supporting the dissemination of important info (such as the article, albeit yes, over-sensationalized, that prompted this thread) to all of us pozzies & visitors here, and to help provoke some active thought in those newly diagnosed, or those who maybe think that all they have to do is blindly take a pill and life will be grand (eg those thread responders that literally acknowledged their "sticking their heads in the sand" and, or 'bliss' positions). remember, knowledge =power!

wishing you a great day  :)

max
1997 is when I found out, being deathly ill. I had to go to the hospital due to extreme headache and fever. I fell coma like,  two months later weighing 95 pounds and in extreme pain and awoke to knowledge of Pancreatis, Cryptococcal Meningitis, Thrush,Severe Diarea,  Wasting, PCP pneumonia. No eating, only through tpn. Very sick, I was lucky I had good insurance with the company I worked for. I was in the hospital for three months that time. 
(2010 Now doing OK cd4=210  VL= < 75)
I have become resistant to many nukes and non nukes, Now on Reyataz, , Combivir. Working well for me not too many side effects.  I have the wasting syndrome, Fatigue  . Hard to deal with but believe it or not I have been through worse. Three Pulmonary Embolism's in my life. 2012 520 t's <20 V load

Offline mewithu

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2009, 08:51:11 AM »
Why are we all seemingly fighting the subjects with each other. There are many of us that made it through fine years ago and some of us didn't do so well so lets try to get together with these posts and try not to let them tear us apart and not be friends. There certainly has been a lot of deaths and many lifes havve been ruined by this disease. There is no doubt it ages us and some age with it better than others. Let the point be taken in and dwell on it use it and try not to let it tear us down even further than we are. Thanks and Love to all, Jerry :)
1997 is when I found out, being deathly ill. I had to go to the hospital due to extreme headache and fever. I fell coma like,  two months later weighing 95 pounds and in extreme pain and awoke to knowledge of Pancreatis, Cryptococcal Meningitis, Thrush,Severe Diarea,  Wasting, PCP pneumonia. No eating, only through tpn. Very sick, I was lucky I had good insurance with the company I worked for. I was in the hospital for three months that time. 
(2010 Now doing OK cd4=210  VL= < 75)
I have become resistant to many nukes and non nukes, Now on Reyataz, , Combivir. Working well for me not too many side effects.  I have the wasting syndrome, Fatigue  . Hard to deal with but believe it or not I have been through worse. Three Pulmonary Embolism's in my life. 2012 520 t's <20 V load

Offline Ann

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2009, 09:01:28 AM »
Ah come on guys be fair . If you read what clsoca said its all about how you look . Forget about what going on inside the body and mind of LTS . Its just so ... LA  

You know, that post irked me too. It's perfectly possible to look "great" but feel like absolute shit. I really hated it when I was on the hep C treatment and felt like death warmed up, but constantly had people telling me how good I looked. (probably because I'd lost weight) Never mind the fact that I had to use a walking stick to get around because my hips were in such terrible shape. ::)

And even now, people tell me how good I look - but they don't know about my constant battle with chronic hiv-related diarrhea. They don't know CAN'T SEE how many times a week I end up crapping my pants because I couldn't make it to the toilet on time. They don't know CAN'T SEE how much my joints ache. They don't know CAN'T SEE how low my energy levels are.

Looks ain't everything.

Ann
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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #86 on: November 07, 2009, 09:25:51 AM »
 I had a fill in rent a ID doc some months ago at the clinic I go to give me a long condescending speech about how " good" I looked . Told me he was dismayed that I was on disability , all this from just reading the last 6 months of my history . I am a very even tempered fellow so instead of getting mad I had the clinic director fill in the blanks for him .

The director called me later and told me he was sorry that I had been treated that way in his clinic . He had to explain to the doctor in training that some of us older guys have been through hell and back , years of toxic drugs and in my case more chemo therapy than recommended in two lifetimes .

My point is if you can have this happen at a major university hospital its not surprising to me at all we are having this conversation here .
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 12:24:18 PM by jg1962 »

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2009, 11:56:14 AM »
I do not buy the early aging argument. I know lots of people in the LA area who have lived with hiv for up to two decades and they all look great. I also know a few who look like shit.

The ones who look like shit never took care of themselves. They consumed too much alcohol, maintained unhealthy diets and were always obese.

Just take a look at Magic Johnson as a case in point. You be the judge.

As Magic says, you have to exercise more than regularly and maintain a perfect diet....bottom line. And Magic is still undetectable.



 

I just don't know what to say about this....

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2009, 01:17:19 PM »

  I want a pair of Air Jordans...

  I think we should all focus on the fact that Magic Johnson never had a shoe named after him and Michael Jordan did...  Do you guys think it was because he had the AIDS?

No I think it's because he has PN.

Offline Ann

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2009, 01:51:24 PM »
No I think it's because he has PN.

Yeah, but he LOOKS  fab, so who cares about a little PN?
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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline MitchMiller

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2009, 03:22:04 PM »
Wow... "beauty" is truly in the eye of the beholder.

Magic looks incredibly bloated.  He has a small tree trunk for a neck and an elephant gut.  IMHO, that's body sculpting by his friend Kaletra.

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #91 on: November 07, 2009, 03:57:09 PM »
Wow... "beauty" is truly in the eye of the beholder.

Magic looks incredibly bloated.  He has a small tree trunk for a neck and an elephant gut.  IMHO, that's body sculpting by his friend Kaletra.

Someone with similar lipo issues isn't going to feel that comfy reading this post.
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Offline BT65

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #92 on: November 07, 2009, 05:38:04 PM »
Someone with similar lipo issues isn't going to feel that comfy reading this post.

Especially someone who has a "you LST'ers should look great!  It's all in the way you take care of yourself" opinion.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Joe K

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #93 on: November 07, 2009, 06:29:08 PM »
The ones who look like shit never took care of themselves. They consumed too much alcohol, maintained unhealthy diets and were always obese.
Fortunately, beauty is both in the eyes of the beholder and only skin deep.  You however, based on your insulting comments, prove that ugly, goes to the bone.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #94 on: November 07, 2009, 06:43:45 PM »
All this bickering back and forth and snide, bitchy comments really isn't necessary, folks.  I still don't know why it's so hard for people to move past somebody's unenlightened posts.  It seems like it'd be a whole lot more productive (and on topic) to focus on the points in the article.  I'm (still) curious what's being done to prevent, or at least study, the alleged cause of so many of these neurological problems - brain inflammation.

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Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2009, 06:56:51 PM »
Ah come on guys be fair . If you read what clsoca said its all about how you look . Forget about what going on inside the body and mind of LTS . Its just so ... LA 

Yeah, I had the same reaction.  LA  --  so image focused.  He has a really nice avatar pic though   ;D

Course, without a cast on my wrist it's really hard to see the osteoporosis.
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Offline BT65

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #96 on: November 07, 2009, 09:46:36 PM »
I still don't know why it's so hard for people to move past somebody's unenlightened posts. 

Because it personally insults me and all the other LTS'ers.  The posts aren't fair, and some cut to the core.  When we get disregarded for our experiences, and are told we should look fantastic, and if not it's our fault, well, that's something that just can't pass. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline David_CA

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Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #97 on: November 07, 2009, 10:17:46 PM »
Because it personally insults me and all the other LTS'ers.  The posts aren't fair, and some cut to the core.  When we get disregarded for our experiences, and are told we should look fantastic, and if not it's our fault, well, that's something that just can't pass. 
I know exactly what you mean.  Anybody with a bit of sense would realize a disease like HIV (or cancer or Hep. C or any of a number of others) takes its toll on the one with it.  If not the disease, the meds or treatments are hell on a body.  It's an argument that can't be won; some just won't face the facts that some folks, especially those who were infected since the AZT years and before, are simply not in the same boat as some of the newly diagnosed. 

On the other hand, I know people who were infected around 20 years ago, suffered through AZT, then Combivir and Crixivan, and now are on the beginner's drug - Atripla.  Some of these people look better and have better lab numbers than most HIV- individuals their age. 

I'm not criticizing the thoughts of anybody who's bothered by some of the comments posted, only the way that some have expressed their opinions.  Some of these are obviously intended to start a pissing match, which is unproductive to anybody and doesn't really address the issues in the link that the OP posted.

Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Robert

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,649
Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2009, 12:20:06 AM »
Because it personally insults me and all the other LTS'ers.  The posts aren't fair, and some cut to the core.  When we get disregarded for our experiences, and are told we should look fantastic, and if not it's our fault, well, that's something that just can't pass. 

speak for yourself.  I'm a LTS and it doesn't insult me.  Like David said, it's an argument that can't be won so why dwell on it?  If I let shit like this bother me I would have been dead a long time ago from all the stress.

Let it pass and get on with your life.   If you want to dwell on something, think of the beautiful fall colors, the holidays,  Thanksgiving, family, friends.  The list goes on and on and on.

robert
..........

Offline leese43

  • Member
  • Posts: 257
Re: Early Aging -- New York magazine article
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2009, 12:23:00 AM »

I'm not criticizing the thoughts of anybody who's bothered by some of the comments posted, only the way that some have expressed their opinions.  Some of these are obviously intended to start a pissing match, which is unproductive to anybody and doesn't really address the issues in the link that the OP posted.


Well said..

I've sat back and read the posts over the last couple of days and have been sickened by some of the personal attacks that have gone on. I know that LTS have been through a hell of a lot and I admire your strength but from an outsiders point of view you are not coming across in a good light, it's not what you're saying but how you're saying it. I understand that you may feel insulted by some peoples naivity but does that mean it gives you the right to consciously insult them back?

Funny, I was so happy i'd finally been able to register and participate on the forums but now i'm not so sure...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 12:50:48 AM by leese43 »
Oct 04 - Neg
Aug 05 - infected
Oct 05 - cd4 780, vl 60k
Apr 08 - cd4 430, vl 243
Jul 08 - cd4 550, vl 896
Nov 08 - cd4 730, vl 1.8k
May 09 - cd4 590, vl 1.5k
Sep 09 - cd4 460 vl 34k
Dec 09 - cd4 470 vl 42k
April 10 - cd4 430 vl 88.5k
July 10 - cd4 330 vl 118k
Aug 10 - started reyataz/truvada/norvir
Aug 10 - cd4 380 vl 4k (12 days after starting meds :))
Sep 10 - cd4 520 vl 1.5k
Oct 10 - cd4 590 vl 44
Jan 11 -cd4 610 vl <40 cd4% 50
May 11 - cd4 780 vl UD

 


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