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Author Topic: Why did we vote?  (Read 6529 times)

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Offline carousel

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Why did we vote?
« on: October 10, 2009, 07:17:05 PM »
Sorry to get a bit pissy about this, but exactly what was the point of voting about where the AMG was going to happen?

Yesterday, a few members, including myself, questioned that the time of the vote was being extended by 10 days.  As a result, the vote was suddenly called.  London had won.

Soon after, Killofile said that he insisted that two AMGs happen, late at night (well for us on the other side of the planet that is).  Several people agreed, none of whom supported London.

I log on today to find that we are now holding 2 AMGs, no vote and only a few opinions steering this conversation.  What about all those people voted over the last few weeks?  Do their opinions mean nothing?


Offline mecch

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2009, 07:32:18 PM »
Um, yeah!
Do however see the point about financial hardship.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2009, 07:37:35 PM »
Someone has a financial hardship no matter which side of the Atlantic it is on -- that is why there are grants.  I was wondering what the point of the vote was myself, so I'm interested in what others think.  You know, from my point of view, people need not feel that they simply have to attend this function every year.  I got a grant when I attended in 2008, and in order for someone else to have a chance this year did not attend in Boston.

Yes, there is nothing to prevent people who would choose not to attend London to meet in a North American location, but one would think that there should be some respect for the actual vote and do this privately.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Joe K

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2009, 07:54:45 PM »
OK I give.  My impression was that London had won the vote for AMG 2010 and all I proposed is adding another AMG for the second choice of Las Vegas.  I know many of the people on this forum and most of us would be unable to attend an AMG, that was not held closest to home.  And if I remember correctly, that was the same argument for a Europe AMG a few years ago.  I'm not discounting the votes of anyone, I simply saw a lot of confusion and offered a suggestion.

You don't have to listen to me and I hope you enjoy whatever AMGs you decide on, because I am done with this.

edited to add:  I can only hope that you will at least agree to allow multiple AMG events to share this forum, to coordinate their own events.  Some of your attitudes really disappoint me, this is supposed to be a fun event and I would think the forum would be thrilled to host two events, with even more people being able to attend.  Maybe I was wrong.  Pity.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 08:00:23 PM by killfoile »

Offline Ric Wilke

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2009, 08:04:02 PM »
Sorry to get a bit pissy about this, but exactly what was the point of voting about where the AMG was going to happen?

Yesterday, a few members, including myself, questioned that the time of the vote was being extended by 10 days.  As a result, the vote was suddenly called.  London had won.

Soon after, Killofile said that he insisted that two AMGs happen, late at night (well for us on the other side of the planet that is).  Several people agreed, none of whom supported London.

I log on today to find that we are now holding 2 AMGs, no vote and only a few opinions steering this conversation.  What about all those people voted over the last few weeks?  Do their opinions mean nothing?

So London won!!!  Why are you pissing?  Make it work.  Your group has been offered lots of assistance.  But the work is yours to make it happen.

PS.  I just checked and Buckingham Palace is not available.  The real "Queen" still lives there.  

Offline Dennis

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2009, 08:06:00 PM »
Why did you vote? Let me fill you in. You voted so you can bitch and complain that you voted. And...because if you didn't have an opportunity to vote, you'd still bitch and complain. So this year, you got the best of both worlds.

And next year, AidMemds members will have the best of both worlds. Those that want to attend a North American AMG can do so. Likewise, those that want to attend a European AMG will have the opportunity as well.

Allow me to point out that Joe's solution is nothing new. It has been suggested year after year that someone should coordinate a European AMG for those, that for whatever reason, can't make it to a North American AMG. All it takes is for someone to take the lead.

May I suggest you focus on seeking a coordinator to plan your European AMG rather than all this bitching. I can and will only take the London planning so far.

Sorry to get a bit pissy about this, but exactly what was the point of voting about where the AMG was going to happen?

Yesterday, a few members, including myself, questioned that the time of the vote was being extended by 10 days.  As a result, the vote was suddenly called.  London had won.

Soon after, Killofile said that he insisted that two AMGs happen, late at night (well for us on the other side of the planet that is).  Several people agreed, none of whom supported London.

I log on today to find that we are now holding 2 AMGs, no vote and only a few opinions steering this conversation.  What about all those people voted over the last few weeks?  Do their opinions mean nothing?



Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2009, 08:09:31 PM »
jesus
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline mecch

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 08:24:17 PM »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 08:26:03 PM »
jesus

My thought exactly.

Why did we vote??  Simple -- to pick a site and that site was London.  Now everyone KNOWS that means some folks would not be able to attend due to finances, just like having the others in North America meant some couldn't afford to come from Europe (or elsewhere).  Yes, there are grants, they have helped many, but we raised something like a little over $2,000 last year (I believe).  That isn't going to do a whole lot in getting folks across the Atlantic (no matter the direction) -- didn't this year, won't next year.

What the hell is all the angst about?  That there will possibly be 2 AMGs?  Quick now, clutch the pearls, why would anyone want MORE people to be able to benefit from the experience of an AMG.  
If people who can not afford to go to London want to organize an additional one, what does it have to do with anyone who is planning to go to London?  Vegas isn't going to impact London.  People will attend the one that they can afford, some may attend both.  Can't we get past the drama and actually start planning.

I simply don't get it -- the only possible explanation is that there is a minority of people who are only happy when they are stirring up shit about AMG.  maybe it's jealousy, maybe it's boredom then again maybe it's just plain and simple meanness.  

The sad thing is, it's all this crap that kept me from attending AMG for years, because I thought to myself, who the fuck wants to deal with those people.  i finally attended one and guess what, not a bit of drama.  Just people being fun, supportive and having a good time.  THAT IS WHAT AMG IS ABOUT.  Let's try and remember that, before more people sit out AMGs due to all this unnecessary crap.

Mike
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Offline mecch

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 08:28:10 PM »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 08:29:22 PM »
Nobody ever said life was fair, Tina.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2009, 08:31:20 PM »
You know mecch, you really aren't doing anything but help to stir the pot more.  Why don't you just stop it.  really

Mike
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 08:35:01 PM »

The sad thing is, it's all this crap that kept me from attending AMG for years, because I thought to myself, who the fuck wants to deal with those people.

Yeah, I know what you mean.  When I signed up here it was around AMG 2006 and there was drama before, during and after -- including a publicly faked suicide attempt -- that kept me away from the entire board for a good four or five months.  Then in 2007 a board member who is no longer here (due to the drama) offered to pay all of my expenses outside of the grants committee format and I declined.

As far as drama from this past year, well there was some because I know of someone that's disappeared from the board because of it.  But I was asked not to go public with it so that's all I will say.

But to return to carousel's point, I can fully understand why someone would ask why there was a vote.  If I lived in the UK or Europe I'd probably ask the same thing.  As far as having two AMG's not effecting anything I guess you'd be correct if the grants money only gets applied to the location that won the vote, but I doubt that's what will happen.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline mecch

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 08:48:01 PM »
A little levity and some distance never hurts when ones buttons have been pushed.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Dennis

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 09:11:34 PM »
As far as drama from this past year, well there was some because I know of someone that's disappeared from the board because of it.  But I was asked not to go public with it so that's all I will say.

Any drama that occured at this years AMG was brought on by themselves as well as in 2008.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2009, 04:51:53 AM »
 As far as having two AMG's not effecting anything I guess you'd be correct if the grants money only gets applied to the location that won the vote, but I doubt that's what will happen.

I have only just caught up with all the drama...why we have this every year is way beyond me, but anyway, for what it's worth I agree with Philly, if he is saying what I think he is saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong Philly.

As far as I'm concerned there is only one AMG and that is the one that we the members vote on every year, we get 3 choices every year and we choose which one we want, this years vote was done fair and square and London won the vote.

London is the "Official" AMG..and I personally I think we should only have one coordinator (with helpers if needed), one ambassador and one grants committee to help those who are struggling to get to London.

If those who can't afford to go or don't want to go to London but want to get together in Vegas then I think you should group together and arrange it between yourselves and it should be a separate gathering from the "Official" AMG and the "Official" Grants committee should not be approached to help out...again I'm sure you can help out each other on your own. if that's what's needed.

I believe in the AMG's I think it's a wonderful opportunity for the members to get together and meet face to face, and I think it should be shared equally and now those from Europe get the chance to meet.

I know of many who have wanted to attend an AMG but because of the destination in the past have never been able to attend..now they have the chance..don't take that away from them..and for God sake stop fighting over it and spoiling it for the members who want to attend the "Official" AMG.

Decide what you want to do and start organising...it's as simple as that...these are just my thoughts on the subject, I'm not going to get into an argument about this so don't even think about starting one with me.

Hugs
Jan
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2009, 04:56:58 AM »
I agree with Charles.  The vote was meaningless.  I'm disappointed that decisions were made without even bothering to consult the entire population that voted and that these decisions were made by a group of individuals who insist that AMG never be held outside the US/North America.  This knee-jerk reaction to questions is quite disruptive and petty.  What's wrong with hearing people out and giving a measured response?

I'm also disappointed at the responses to Charles' question.  You guys get so defensive at any question that doesn't tow the party line.  Surely you a can be a bit more mature about this, and stop the hyper-emotional, bullying behaviors.

I made the effort and extra expense to come to the US because I thought it was a worldwide event that brought us all to one location.  When some argued it should never be in the US, because of the laws against people with HIV, I disagreed because I thought it was wrong and unfair to exclude the US from the event.  I wish I would have predicted that this was going to end up with Americans decided to just keep the event in the US.  

This was never envisioned to be a US-only event.  If it was a US-only event, then I wouldn't have bothered.  My life is here now.  With all the economic problems of recent, I was unable to go this year.  I didn't make a big stink about it.  I just decided that this year wasn't in the cards for me.  Philly is absolutely right, people shouldn't assume that they have a birthright to attend AMG every year (thereby ensuring that it's always convenient for them to attend).  

This was the year to continue with AMG's international tradition.  To bring new people to table.  People who would then make the trip back the US/North America.  But now, without so much as any input from us, we're being pushed aside.  We deserve a bit more respect and consideration than this, guys.

I've been asked to coordinate a separate event.  My answer and reasons have not changed from when I was first asked.  I am not helping certain people in the US splinter off AMG thereby making AMG-NonAmerica a segregated/separate but equal event.  There should only be one AMG location.  The one that the members vote on.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 04:59:43 AM by Cliff »

Offline anniebc

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 05:05:38 AM »
Quote
There should only be one AMG location.  The one that the members vote on.

That's what I just said Cliff...you really should pay attention... :D ;)

Hugs
Jan :-*
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 05:15:10 AM »
LOL.  Yes, you did (and thanks for that).  My pressure is up right now I just barrelled through your response!   :P

I need to go take my high blood pressure meds and take a morning walk to the river!

miss ya (BTW saw your family photos on FB the other day and caught some AMGs ones in there....it brought back some good memories).   :)

Offline Ann

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 06:51:23 AM »
Well, I agree with Miss P, Jan and Cliff. I'm also concerned that two events would be a strain on the Grants and I strongly agree with Jan that the location voted on by members should be where any Grants funds go to. Otherwise, there really was no point in having a vote.

Ann
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Offline Dennis

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 09:18:05 AM »
Regardless of what you call it, there will still be a gathering in the U.S.  Do you all realize how many emails I received from those is the U.S. wondering what was going to happen if AMG was in Europe.
So, whatever you want to call it, gatherings will be happening on both continents this year.

Are these gathering about they're called anyway? 

Needless to say, not once ounce of effort has been forth, as in years past, to announce a coordinator for Europe.

As far as the grants committee. As I mentioned in another post, Europe needs to have their own grants committee, located in Europe. It does not make sense for a U.S. grants committee to collect U.S. dollars, only to turn around and lose money in the exchange rate. Unless of course, members in Europe are all financially stable and don't need assistance.

It's very simple. If you want AMG in London then get your acts togethor and start planning. This bitching is getting absolutely nowhere quick.

Offline mecch

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 10:37:04 AM »
Are there no bylaws or rules of procedure that apply to this scuffle?
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 10:39:39 AM »
First of all, I agree that London is the "official" AMG for 2010 -- despite my support for an additional gathering in Vegas.

I can't seem to find anywhere in this thread where it was suggested that there be multiple Grants Committees or that THE Grants Committee be used for both gatherings.  All I see is a suggestion that it be handled in the UK, for exchange purposes -- which, I suppose, only becomes a big issue if most donors come from outside the US (a US donor is going to have 'exchange' issues regardless of where the account is held).

I think that there are "knee jerk" reactions happening on both sides of the Atlantic.  None of which is going to help AMG or the Vegas gathering be successful for the members.  I think that it is also important to note that every year there were suggestions that 2 gathering might make sense, so I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that the same suggestion was made this year.  The ONLY difference is that folks are actually acting on that suggestion this year.  There is nothing nefarious going on here -- it is only happening inside some folks heads.

Instead of spending all this time complaining, why doesn't someone step up, and take control.  We need an AMG Coordinator -- preferably from Europe, as the time difference makes it very difficult to be able to do this from the US.  Once the coordinator is in place, he/she can insure that London is handled exactly as every other AMG has been handled.  There is plenty of bitching and moaning about perceived slights, but no indication that anyone is reaching out to Dennis for assistance in transitioning the Coordinator responsibilities.  If someone doesn't come forward, it is going to be difficult for London AMG to be successful.

To, hopefully, set aside the accusations that anyone who didn't vote for London is against London, I will declare that I do desire to attend.  However, I can't commit until details get worked out -- timing, lodging costs, etc.  This will be an expensive endeavor, and the sooner this stuff gets worked out, the more likely you will be able to see the support that I know is out there from US members.  Of course, I also desire to attend the Vegas gathering -- with enough lead time, I should be able to do both (finances being the final checkpoint, of course).

The vote is over, the time to start working has begun.

Mike
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Offline GNYC09

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2009, 11:32:56 AM »

Offline confidentIwillbeOK

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2009, 12:03:33 PM »
"I wish I would have predicted that this was going to end up with Americans decided to just keep the event in the US. "

I don't think that is really accurate or fair.  A bunch of Americans voted for London.  A lot of us did.  The Americans decided to have the event in London!   ;)

Now a funny story.  Days after my partner and I were diagnosed I stumbled across this website and the forums.  I saw the AMG forum and when the threads about Boston popped up I was totally amazed as the gathering was starting the next day and it was walking distance to my home and work.  I excitedly said to my partner "Hey...there is this Huge gathering of poz people in Boston at some sort of convention or conference". He said "really? cool...how many people are attending?"  I told him I didn't know but based on the number of posts and threads it was probably hundreds or thousands. LOL.  Little did I know there was a 500 to 1 ratio for posts per attendee.   :D 

It was nice to be able to pop in two nights and meet some nice people.  Wish we could have stayed around longer but we had plans that weekend out of state.  The first night we were there was an hour after my very first ID appointment so the timing was perfect.....a little social support really helped. 

Anyway, London it is.....I hope we can make it but it depends on the other half's school schedule. Hopefully many from both sides of the pond will be able to attend.  There are a number of posters in Europe I would really love to meet so hopefully it is in the cards for me (or us).

Steve



Offline Dennis

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2009, 12:15:45 PM »
I don't think that is really accurate or fair.  A bunch of Americans voted for London.  A lot of us did.  The Americans decided to have the event in London!   ;)

This isn't entirely accurate. There were a total of 56 votes. London received a total of 25 votes. Of those 25 votes only a handfull were from North America. I counted 4 or 5. Hardly a "bunch." Only time will tell how many North American citizens will attend AMG London.

Now...Out of 56 votes there were a total of 22 votes for Las Vegas and 9 for New Orleans. This  is a total of 31 votes for a North American AMG.

So, in reality, there was pretty much a split between Europe and North America. This further substantiates the need for a gathering on each continent.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 12:18:38 PM by Dennis »

Offline confidentIwillbeOK

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2009, 01:49:27 PM »
I went back and counted and it was actually 9 or 10 which is ~ 40% of the London vote.

Anyway, I was not arguing but just pointing out the fact that there are people here (U.S.) who happily will support London and will try and attend.  Nothing more than that...no drama and not trying to say there should not be another event here.

OK....so how do I make a donation to the grant committee?  How does that work?  I will donate $200 to help someone who would otherwise be unable to attend to make it. 

Steve

Offline Dennis

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2009, 02:22:23 PM »
Donations can be made once the Grant Committee is reformed. Looks for announcements here.

And I double checked my spreadsheet.

And according to members profiles, or information I have obtained from their posts...

6 votes from U.S. members (Boston, TN, CA, NJ, Philly, Alabama(?))

1 vote from Columbia

1 vote from "The Rock"

1 vote from Australia

1 Vote from Germany

9 votes from the UK

1 vote from Europe (profile doesn't specify where)

5 votes from ??? (profile doesn't specify location)

Unless the 5 votes from an unspecified location are from the U.S., 40% of the votes for London did not originate from the U.S. Based on the screen name of one of these members, I would guess they are from the U.S. If those 5 members are from the U.S. we are looking at 44%.

Also, based on the history of past votes, there is actuallly a large +/- between people who vote and those who actually attend an AMG.

Offline confidentIwillbeOK

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2009, 02:51:48 PM »
Yep...I looked at screename or past posts to see if the person was from the U.S....

I will look for announcements about the grant committee and will be the first to contribute.   :)

If it ends up we can't make it due to scheduling or school issues I may contribute more.   :) :)

Keep up the good work.   :) :) :)

Offline Joe K

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2009, 05:13:11 PM »
You voted to select the site of AMG 2010 and if not for my brain-dead post, most of this confusion would not have happened.  I cannot apologize enough and I have no idea what I was thinking.  "FacePalm" does not even begin to describe how stupid I feel and how insensitive my post was to many of the members here.  In my misguided attempt at compromise, I insisted on change, rather than offering a suggestion.  I am deeply sorry for my inappropriate behavior.  I particularly want to apologize to all of you who voted for London, as it never was my intent to change the location, just expand attendance.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2009, 05:35:13 PM »
Thanks for the apology Joe. 

Offline Robert

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2009, 06:48:02 PM »

Needless to say, not once ounce of effort has been forth, as in years past, to announce a coordinator for Europe....


Not true. Back in Sept (Sept 12) HUGO volunteered his services:

Quote
hey all,

i know this has been brought up multiple times but still,
as some one living in the UK and not being able to travel to the USA or for this mather Mexico i would like to explore the options of a meeting in London.
I am aware of the large number of members on the site in the same position as myself and how much we would love to come to the AGM we just dont have the chance for what ever personal or even sometimes financial reason.

As a event manager from trade i would love to set up a meeting for people living in Europe aswell as in other parts of the world, giving everyone the option of being there.
So i would love to hear from you all regarding idea's, comments, etc.

you can email them directly to me or trowe them in the forum

xx
hugo



It's very simple. If you want AMG in London then get your acts togethor and start planning. This bitching is getting absolutely nowhere quick.


Start planning?  That's what were doing.  It was just the other day we voted for London.  Now we're  trying to determine the dates.  Jeez Louise   ::)

(Also, let me add I'm in agreement with Cliff and Jan et al.) 

robert
..........

Offline Ric Wilke

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2009, 07:35:13 PM »
Thanks for the apology Joe. 

Joe, there is absolutely NO reason that you should feel the necessity to apology for anything you offered to this complex discussion.  In fact, I believe that it is you who deserves apologies from more than one member.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 07:38:49 PM by Ric Wilke »

Offline Ric Wilke

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2009, 07:48:51 PM »
Start planning?  That's what were doing.  It was just the other day we voted for London.  Now we're  trying to determine the dates.  Jeez Louise   ::)

Robert,

Before determining the dates, I suggest that selecting a Coordinator should be the number one priority.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2009, 08:27:05 PM »
Robert,

Before determining the dates, I suggest that selecting a Coordinator should be the number one priority.

This appears rather counterintuitive.  After all, the new Coordinator volunteers might prefer to have an idea as to when the event will occur before they commit to organizing.

Dennis has been moving things along very nicely as the interim Coorddinator (THANK YOU DENNIS !!!)  He has us working on choosing dates, thinking about the grants committee and choosing a new coordinator.  I think we should gratefully accept his guidance and keep moving ahead rather than introducing additional unneeded dependencies into the process.

A
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Offline Dennis

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2009, 09:16:55 PM »
You are correct. Hugo did offer. That was back in 2008. I urge everyone to read this thread.

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=23020.msg292779#msg292779

Not once did ANYONE cause the ruckus they are now about Hugo trying (or at least offering) to organize a seperate event in Europe. Not one single person! In fact, he was encouraged to do so. As a matter of fact, you were one of them, Robert.

Edited to add...So basically what I'm reading into is if AMG is in North America, "we" understand if our European friends can't join, and therefore gather on their own closer to home. However, if AMG is in Europe, don't you dare gather in North America and compete with "our" AMG. Sound rediculous, doesn't it. That's exactly what being said.


Not true. Back in Sept (Sept 12) HUGO volunteered his services:

Start planning?  That's what were doing.  It was just the other day we voted for London.  Now we're  trying to determine the dates.  Jeez Louise   ::)

(Also, let me add I'm in agreement with Cliff and Jan et al.)  

robert
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 09:31:39 PM by Dennis »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2009, 09:41:04 PM »


  Do you guys need my help?  I have a pocket calculator.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Dennis

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2009, 09:45:55 PM »

  Do you guys need my help?  I have a pocket calculator.

Damn, we're lucky! What would we do without you.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2009, 10:05:08 PM »


 

   Add stuff with your fingers I guess...... ::)
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline tokyodecadence

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Re: Why did we vote?
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2009, 12:34:45 AM »
I'm pretty new to this whole shebang, but whatever this whole AMG thing is, it seems a little terrifying at face value.  ???

[.Fodão.]

 


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