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Author Topic: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US  (Read 3059 times)

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Offline Miss Philicia

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lol... sorry, even Texas wouldn't attempt this

Switzerland decides to ban minarets.  Amazingly this isn't just a law, but it's now in their constitution.  Polling showed before the vote I think that it wasn't going to win most likely, then it went on to not just win but it won by a huge 15 point margin.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 12:06:39 PM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline ad2san

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 12:48:38 PM »
Hi Miss P,

Switzerland is not Europe ...

Try to imagine that in the US citizens would have the possibility to submit to the direct vote the same kind of text. I guess that the result would not be that different.

It just shows the limitation of direct democracy ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 01:10:57 PM »

Switzerland is not Europe ...

Wow, really?  I'm quite sure I was taught in school that they were the same.  Thanks!
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline anniebc

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 03:33:06 PM »
Maybe Central Eurpe isn't in Europe..Mmm, interesting.. ;)

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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 04:34:41 PM »


  Damn I could swear during my campaign in Hearts Of Iron, that I defeated the Swiss with my blitzkrieg manuevers and Panzer divisions all in 24 hrs..   and it sure looked like they were in Europe to me.   Does this mean Italy is part of Africa?

   public education done learnt me wrong again and I can't find none of this stuff on Googel..
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline tommy246

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 05:23:40 PM »
Switzerland is europe but not in the eec trading group or nato , they only have snowballs as weapons , its a neutral country as everyones money is stashed there away from the tax man
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Offline mecch

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 06:12:39 PM »
Hi from Switzerland. Its a direct democracy.  The same kind of stuff that happens in California when the people get to put stuff to a referendum.  

Everyone was surprised by the vote but I wasn't really. All the parties were against the ban, even center and even right politics.  But fringe did a great and nasty campaign - very effective at raising fears.  

You know there are some communes in Switzerland that maintain the right for direct votation on who gets citizenship.  Villages where long established Muslim families, completely "integrated" are finally voted out by their neighbors.  

Even worse, the same day had a vote to continue making weapons to sell to the world, to keep employment high. Switzerland makes guns and landmines.....

If you put this proposal to popular vote, it would pass in many countries I am afraid.

The francophone states voted AGAINST the ban.  There's a higher comfort level, due to French history in northern Africa and also the idea that if you speak french, then you are assimilated.  I think you can speak perfect German and be considered an outsider no matter what.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline frenchpat

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 02:36:54 AM »
[quote  I think you can speak perfect German and be considered an outsider no matter what.
[/quote]

Except in Basle Stadt, German speaking city, neighbour of both Germany and France, where they voted against the ban as well...  ;)

Pat
People have the power - Patti Smith

Offline Ann

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 09:01:01 AM »

   public education done learnt me wrong again and I can't find none of this stuff on Googel..


Then maybe you should try Google. :D
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HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline David_CA

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 10:11:18 AM »
I wonder if the Swiss think that actually banning the construction of minarets will 'kill off' Islam there.  To me, it sounds like some of the thinking that goes along with the ultra-conservative religious folks here in the US. 
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Offline elf

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 10:42:14 AM »
Switzerland is not a part of the European Union, so they can have any law they want, they don't need to ask Brussels for permission.

I think Swiss people think religion is something to keep/celebrate at home, they don't like to see 2 girls/guys kissing on the street (they say: do this at home and not before the eyes of our children), so I think the same applies for Muslim architecture they think it would ruin their quaint Swiss landscapes.

Most Muslim people in Switzerland are immigrants from Bosnia and not Arabs (just like in the case of Sweden)...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 10:45:16 AM by elf »
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Offline Ann

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 11:06:50 AM »
Wouldn't Muslims in Switzerland have recourse to the European Court of Human Rights? I know that the Isle of Man (where I live) isn't part of the EU either, but we still have recourse to the ECHR. It seems to me that the Court would rule in their favour as it being against their human rights to not be permitted to build their houses of worship in the way they want. It's not like having a minaret in the neighbourhood would infringe on anyone's human rights, no more than having a Christian church with a steeple in the neighbourhood would.

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline ad2san

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 11:17:50 AM »
Wouldn't Muslims in Switzerland have recourse to the European Court of Human Rights? I know that the Isle of Man (where I live) isn't part of the EU either, but we still have recourse to the ECHR. It seems to me that the Court would rule in their favour as it being against their human rights to not be permitted to build their houses of worship in the way they want. It's not like having a minaret in the neighbourhood would infringe on anyone's human rights, no more than having a Christian church with a steeple in the neighbourhood would.



jeeeeh we're a lot of European on this forum  ;D

I love the Scottish specifities and the beautiful Isle of Man, didn't you wanted some time ago get away from the GBP and issue your own Euros :-)
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Offline Ann

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 11:29:47 AM »
jeeeeh we're a lot of European on this forum  ;D

I love the Scottish specifities and the beautiful Isle of Man, didn't you wanted some time ago get away from the GBP and issue your own Euros :-)

We use pounds, but our money is different and we have our own Treasury. Our money is called Manx Pounds. If I travel to the UK, I have to change my Manx money into UK pounds; none of the shops will take Manx money. However, you can spend UK pounds in the shops here. I'm not sure exactly how it all works though. I don't recall any debate over creating Manx Euros, but I do know that if the UK changes over to the Euro, we'll probably end up following suit, even though the majority of Manx people probably wouldn't want to lose our pounds.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2009, 06:34:58 AM »

  
they only have snowballs as weapons

  Tell that to the mechanized division I left stranded in the Swiss Alps during my 1939 siege of Zurich.  
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Ann

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2009, 09:29:24 AM »
 
  Tell that to the mechanized division I left stranded in the Swiss Alps during my 1939 siege of Zurich. 

Gee, Skeebs, you're a lot older than you look.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline poz1970

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2009, 10:37:39 AM »
Switzerland is europe but not in the eec trading group or nato , they only have snowballs as weapons , its a neutral country as everyones money is stashed there away from the tax man

and they have the largest army in the world.. the entire population is military trained (compulsary military service) ... its why hitler didn't want to invade... who'd want to take on an army of 8 million?


J
"The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to  heterosexuals. That doesn`t mean that God doesn`t love heterosexuals. It`s just that they need more supervision." -- Lynn Lavne

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2009, 10:43:10 AM »
and they have the largest army in the world.. the entire population is military trained (compulsary military service) ... its why hitler didn't want to invade... who'd want to take on an army of 8 million?


J

Well, in fairness to Adolf there were only 18,000 Jews there at the time.  Plus he needed a peaceful country where he could send all of that gold that he extracted from the teeth of Jewish corpses.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 10:44:59 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2009, 05:00:54 PM »
Gee, Skeebs, you're a lot older than you look.

LOL and about as dumb as I look also.. ;)  I ended up re-writing the whole history of WWII.  I never attacked Poland, went directly for the shores of California, tried to time this with the development of my nuclear arsenal...  unfortunately I did not allocate enough resources to my research division back in Dresden and by the time my first dirty bomb reached production my forces were getting decimated in Kentucky... 

And to top it off Rommel ended up conspiring against me and took most of my Panzer division as we crossed the borders of Texas.....  I knew I should have turned back at this point.
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Offline mecch

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2009, 06:22:36 PM »
and they have the largest army in the world.. the entire population is military trained (compulsary military service) ... its why hitler didn't want to invade... who'd want to take on an army of 8 million?
J
only men, who are swiss citizens, and who dont ask for civil service instead. its not 8 million!

the nazis didnt invade as miss p mentions because both the allied and the axis needed a place to continue to do dirty business and for spies to meet and take it easy.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline PozBrian

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2009, 01:55:41 AM »
... they only have snowballs as weapons , ...

What about those nifty knives they have?
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Offline aztecan

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2009, 10:30:51 AM »
Gee, I think minarets look fine with mountains as a background.

Maybe the Swiss should visit and see for themselves.

HUGS,

Mark


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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2009, 12:10:37 PM »
Ah, here we go -- time to go after Jews: source

Quote
Swiss leader calls for Jewish cemetery ban
December 3, 2009

BERLIN (JTA) -- A mainstream Swiss political leader is calling for a ban on separate Muslim and Jewish cemeteries.

Christophe Darbellay, president of the Christian Democratic People's Party of Switzerland, made the statement in a television interview Tuesday, two days after Swiss voters passed an initiative to ban minarets.

The anti-minaret initiative came from the opposition ultra-conservative Swiss People's Party and other right-wing political organizations. Critics say Darbellay is starting a "crusade" to attract voters by proposing similarly xenophobic measures.

Mainstream politicians and religious leaders across Europe have reacted with dismay to the anti-minaret vote.

According to the Swiss online daily Tagesanzeiger, Darbellay also wants to ban the wearing of burkas, head-to-toe veils worn by some fundamentalist Muslim women.

Darbellay reportedly said that existing cemeteries would not be affected by a ban, but that there should be no separate cemeteries in the future.

The Swiss People's Party called for crackdowns on expressions of Muslim fundamentalism in 2006. Observers said the demand for separate cemeteries is an escalation.
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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2009, 02:15:56 PM »
I wouldn't discriminate like that.

I would ban minarets and steeples both.
...................VL.....CD4.....%
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08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
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Offline dtwpuck

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Re: a reminder that Europe is not necessarily more enlightened than the US
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2009, 08:34:37 AM »
I would ban minarets and steeples both.

Now there's something that makes sense.
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